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Also, what about undead? Or antipaladins? How would this affect them?
Anti-paladins can gain ultimate power by doing what now?
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What about aasimar? Tieflings? Half-fiends? Androids? Lizardfolk? Giants? Drider? Centaur? Ogres? Oni? Trolls? Vashnara? Ratfolk? Strix? Dryads? Nymphs?
All by their creature type. That's a tad unrealistic, but it's more realistic than having everyone susceptible to everything, and has the virtue of being pretty simple to implement.
For the record, I'd only apply this rule to non-magical diseases. Magic breaks lots of real-world rules.
Does that mean that becoming a dragon disciple renders you immune to all the humanoid-affecting diseases?
Uh...Dragon Disciple doesn't change creature type, so no.
Are centaur vulnerable to horse-diseases or human diseases? Or are the vulnerable to diseases that affect gargoyles and formians that share their creature type?
The gargoyles and formians option (which, btw, they can get diseases from now...heck, they can get plant diseases by the official rules...a centaur can get wheat blight if you take the principle of a succubus getting syphilis to it's logical conclusion). If I were going to make this perfectly realistic, I'd obviously make diseases species specific, but as you note that's unwieldy in actual play. Basing it on creature type seems a sane and solid mid-point.
What if it's a half-dragon centaur?
Is susceptible to dragon diseases, not monstrous humanoid ones. Which is reasonable, draconic lineage is apparently full of some hefty mojo.
What about hags? They're immune to people diseases and dragon diseases, but they're vulnerable to centaur diseases, unless they are night hags which are outsiders, and thus are vulnerable to angel diseases, right?
Yup. That's right.
And drider are 100% immune to humanoid and vermin diseases, but...
Yup. Again, it's less unreasonable than the official rules and easy to use.
Also, what about undead? Or antipaladins? How would this affect them?
Uh...undead are immune to disease, and most they create are magical. So.
And Antipaladins need to catch diseases to spread them...so that seems to work out more or less the same.
EDIT: What happens if you change creature type while you have a disease? Do you immediately overcome the disease, or did your disease just jump ship and now affects a new type of target? If so, did you just create a new super-bug?
Like many corner cases, GM's choice.
Behold the magically engineered super disease. It's not actually magic, but we managed to get it to jump ship to several different creature types, and by various breeding, templates, and so forth have managed to concoct a super disease that affects everything using an odd mixture of outsider to humanoid to animal to human to androids to lizardfolk to...
Sounds like an interesting plot for a Cleric of Urgathoa or a disciple of one of the Horsemen to get up to. And thus only increases my desire to stick with this idea.
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It doesn't seem any more realistic to me. Even without magic, the laws of nature in PF clearly aren't the ones from our world or there wouldn't be any giant vermin. So why try to make diseases work like they do in our world?
Uh...we have no idea of how giant vermin's internal anatomy works. Nor what the atmosphere on Golarion is like (which is one of the main limitations on insect size, with more oxygen they can get a lot bigger). And Golarion is, in fact, explicitly in our universe (you can visit Earth!)...so, yeah, I think making diseases work more logically is a reasonable goal.
It doesn't seem any more realistic to me. Even without magic, the laws of nature in PF clearly aren't the ones from our world or there wouldn't be any giant vermin. So why try to make diseases work like they do in our world?Uh...we have no idea of how giant vermin's internal anatomy works. Nor what the atmosphere on Golarion is like (which is one of the main limitations on insect size, with more oxygen they can get a lot bigger). And Golarion is, in fact, explicitly in our universe (you can visit Earth!)...so, yeah, I think making diseases work more logically is a reasonable goal.
On the other hand, its much more simple to say that diseases work on darn near everything than it is to try and say "well this one only affects rats and tigers!" That, and PCs really only should care about one's that affect PCs or those plot ones that GM fiat creates I guess.
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On the other hand, its much more simple to say that diseases work on darn near everything than it is to try and say "well this one only affects rats and tigers!" That, and PCs really only should care about one's that affect PCs or those plot ones that GM fiat creates I guess.
Well, my solution actually does this for practical purposes most of the time. I mean, non-Humanoid PCs are kinda rare. It's just also a bit more internally consistent, which makes me happy, generally speaking.
This reminds me of a table I saw once basically showing which species had cross-fertility with which species.
What I learned was: Stay the hell away from dragons.
This reminds me of a table I saw once basically showing which species had cross-fertility with which species.
What I learned was: Stay the hell away from dragons.
And that cloud giants & sprites should never be in the same room together.
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For example, quasits, imps, and lemures stand out as some fiendish creatures that are not only susceptible to mundane diseases but are pretty vulnerable. A lemure has a fortitude no better than a low level martial, and both quasits and imps are nearly as susceptible as human commoners.
A lot of diseases have high save DCs as well...
Ah yes, as was told in the "Book of the Damned, vol XLVII, Revised and Extended Edition", which spoke of the dark days when the plague finally reached the Nine Hells, and devil lords were forced to toil for themselves as their servents fled and died... (no cosmology was harmed in the creation of this post)
I have to admit, I'm somewhat intrigued by the idea - I'd never really considered it ;)
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Lets assume for the sake of argument that succubi don't have very high fortitude saves that protect them against and overcome most normal diseases everyday people get. They still don't need to eat or even sleep, and they don't age, so unless the disease causes constitution damage they don't have to worry about it killing them either as they can go comatose and eventually recover if it for some reason it gets that bad.
Humorously, and probably not accidentally, diseases frequently deal Constitution damage. From the lowly filth fever to the frightening Demon Fever (oh look, is this a humanoid disease or an outsider disease? *tongue in cheek*) and the Bubonic Plague, all of these deal Con damage and some deal Con drain.
Now a succubus' saves are only +7, easily within range of contracting a rather extensive variety of these diseases. Further, most of these diseases not only deal Con damage but require you to make 2 consecutive saves to shirk the disease. So if our succubus caught Demon Fever ('cause it's got the word "demon" in it so we can all be happy), the succubus has a 50% chance of contracting the disease when exposed. Assuming she rolls a 10 or less, she ends up taking 1d6 Con damage (average 3.5) and then must immediately make another Fortitude save or 1 point of it is permanent Constitution drain.
So she's dropped from 20 Con to somewhere between 19 and 14, so between a -1 to -3 to her Fortitude saving throws. The next day she rolls her save again with a higher chance of failure. She makes it (score for team evil), but the next day she biffs it again (because the % isn't in her favor) and takes another 1d6 Con damage and possibly some drain.
Since ability score damage doesn't heal naturally while you're still suffering from the affliction, her saves get worse and worse, and unless she scores two natural 20s in a row, very soon her chances of recovering, if not outright being slain, are slim to none.
There's also nothing stopping you from being infected with multiple instances of the same or different afflictions. A character can have bubonic plague, demon fever, and filth fever all at the same time, and technically can have the same affliction multiple times (perhaps representing a particularly virulent strain). For those who are confused by this, understand that poisons stack, becoming more powerful (increased duration, increased save DC), but there is nothing that prevents multiple instances of the same affliction (kind of like being affected by multiple acid arrow DoTs).
As a result, diseases are actually pretty dangerous, especially if you get sick while still suffering from another disease or instance of a disease, as would be especially common for a succubus given the number of diseases spread through contact and/or inhaling and their close proximity to carriers (they have to touch, kiss, etc). Ergo, a succubus is pretty likely to end up as a carrier for things like Leprosy and the Bubonic Plague whether she wants to or not (both are contact/inhaled diseases, and they work in tandem with one-another in bad ways for a succubus).
But it's not just the succubus that this applies to (she's just the poster child for abstinence in this case since part of her shtick is smoochin' all over people who could be harboring various infections), but also to the legions of quasits, lemures, and imps, and to elementals and the like. Everything from air to water elementals can get sick and die from diseases, and many of them are quite susceptible to them (especially the smaller elementals).
Now angels, azata, and archons are also quite susceptible, but they have a lot of their ranks that can remove or heal diseases without pause or fail. Unlike the infinite hordes of the abyss where you might have to beg a 1/month wish to heal a single fiend of a contagious plague, the good-aligned outsiders often have spells like remove disease and heal in abundance.
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For example, quasits, imps, and lemures stand out as some fiendish creatures that are not only susceptible to mundane diseases but are pretty vulnerable. A lemure has a fortitude no better than a low level martial, and both quasits and imps are nearly as susceptible as human commoners.
A lot of diseases have high save DCs as well...
Ah yes, as was told in the "Book of the Damned, vol XLVII, Revised and Extended Edition", which spoke of the dark days when the plague finally reached the Nine Hells, and devil lords were forced to toil for themselves as their servents fled and died... (no cosmology was harmed in the creation of this post)
I have to admit, I'm somewhat intrigued by the idea - I'd never really considered it ;)
Glad you're amused by it. If I've tickled your thinker then I'm doin' alright. :)
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Lets assume for the sake of argument that succubi don't have very high fortitude saves that protect them against and overcome most normal diseases everyday people get. They still don't need to eat or even sleep, and they don't age, so unless the disease causes constitution damage they don't have to worry about it killing them either as they can go comatose and eventually recover if it for some reason it gets that bad.
They might be worried about losing their mind, stamina, or good looks though. All about performance, baby.
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On the other hand, Succubi have a CON of 20 & a Fort save of +7. Yes, the odds ultimately aren't in their favor. However, given their other gifts, I'd say it's not that uncommon for them to 'convince' either a priest him/herself into casting Remove Disease, or someone with enough pull to convince the priest to cast it; or sweet-talk a Glabrezu to using a Wish to simply 'super scrub' the Succubus in question.
Wow, that was a run-on sentence...
"Convincing" a priest or glabrezu is probably their best bet indeed. That said, it makes them even more leashed to a healbot than an unfaithful paladin begging for indulgences -- I mean atonements. :P
Lol is it bad that now I have this horrible idea that succubi who get infected with std's like syphilis and can't cure them and are driven mad have a high chance of transforming into the succubi divs who also carry stds?
Also, if you follow the idea that lycanthrope can be transmitted through sexual contact does that mean you can end up with werewolf succubi? If the latter is true I now have some awesome ideas for Jezelda following succubi...
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Also thanks Ashiel! Now I have this wonderful new dynamic of germ theory for my home games and the idea of demons and devils having this innate fear of them and what that means for things like the horsemen of pestilence is excellent.
Now I want to make my players have to chose between fighting a horde of demons or hiding in a disease quarantine zone.
The idea of an adventuring party hiding in a town infected with zombie rot so as to avoid a demonic hit squad is too awesome not to use.
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Also, if you follow the idea that lycanthrope can be transmitted through sexual contact does that mean you can end up with werewolf succubi? If the latter is true I now have some awesome ideas for Jezelda following succubi...
I hear werewolf-incubus are real beast, if you know what I mean.
More seriously, succubus are outsiders so they can't have the template applied, and the curse is transmitted by bite from their hybrid or animal forms, which you can't get to without transforming. So they can carry but not spread or become a werewolf themselves. They can still bite, claw, play dress up, and alter self though...
Would this table happen to be from the Book of Erotic Fantasy?This reminds me of a table I saw once basically showing which species had cross-fertility with which species.
What I learned was: Stay the hell away from dragons.
Yep.
First: this thread is hilarious.
Second: It makes sense that it would work this way. It makes succubi even more of a tool for the forces of damnation. Why not send a succubi or two into a city you want to conquer and...watch the fun spread?
Especially among enemy soldiers' barracks.
If the succubus dies of disease later on, it's no skin off a general's back.
This makes them great tools in hell's legions...probably a desirable trait since the PRD notes that left unchecked, they're dangerous power-climbers. For example, one of them can: "...rise to incredible heights of power through her manipulations and sensual charms, and many a demonic war has raged due to the subtle machinations of such creatures."
The overlords of hell likely don't want most of them surviving and taking over. They've no interest in granting this immunity, given how manipulatively dangerous these creatures are.
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Also, if you follow the idea that lycanthrope can be transmitted through sexual contact does that mean you can end up with werewolf succubi? If the latter is true I now have some awesome ideas for Jezelda following succubi...I hear werewolf-incubus are real beast, if you know what I mean.
More seriously, succubus are outsiders so they can't have the template applied, and the curse is transmitted by bite from their hybrid or animal forms, which you can't get to without transforming. So they can carry but not spread or become a werewolf themselves. They can still bite, claw, play dress up, and alter self though...
Actually a lot of myths and stories treat it as an std as well, with sexual contact risking exposure. It makes sense since you can breed natural lycanthropes through an afflicted lycanthrope and a clean partner so it doesn't seem a stretch that it could also transmit to clean hosts (especially if said clean partner is carrying a natural spawn).
But anyways back to the conversation at hand. Now why does someone think a succubi infected with lycanthrope couldn't change to hybrid or animal forms?
First: this thread is hilarious.
Second: It makes sense that it would work this way. It makes succubi even more of a tool for the forces of damnation. Why not send a succubi or two into a city you want to conquer and...watch the fun spread?
Especially among enemy soldiers' barracks.
If the succubus dies of disease later on, it's no skin off a general's back.
This makes them great tools in hell's legions...probably a desirable trait since the PRD notes that left unchecked, they're dangerous power-climbers. For example, one of them can: "...rise to incredible heights of power through her manipulations and sensual charms, and many a demonic war has raged due to the subtle machinations of such creatures."
The overlords of hell likely don't want most of them surviving and taking over. They've no interest in granting this immunity, given how manipulatively dangerous these creatures are.
They're demons, not devils. They don't truck so much with Hell - they're Abyssal spawns.
(Outside of house-rules, of course, but that's your prerogative. :D)
(EDIT: It does sound like a nifty plot-idea, though, and it is definitely something that the Archduke of the First, Barbatos, would be up to...)
Also, the other denizens of hell - the big wigs - aren't immune either.
The fact that they're Abyssal actually makes sense that they're not immune: the Abyss makes everything and everyone break in horrible ways. That's what it's for.
Now why does someone think a succubi infected with lycanthrope couldn't change to hybrid or animal forms?
Lycanthopy is a curse that acts like a disease spread through injury, specifically from a bite in hybrid or animal form. Though there are a few GM fiat ways to spread it specified, the only one that's actually mechanically there is through a bite. The curse gives you the lycanthrope template if you don't remove it, which specifically affects humanoids. Succubus being outsiders, you can't apply the template to them, but they aren't immune to disease or curses to they can receive the curse of lycanthropy, which means no hybrid/animal form, which means no bite and no spreading, but hey! They can't catch it so they can scratch one of the big disease bingo card they have going.
That said... I'd wager there are a lot of things a succubus is willing to do, and not much they aren't. I'm sure they have a few surprises.
Would this table happen to be from the Book of Erotic Fantasy?This reminds me of a table I saw once basically showing which species had cross-fertility with which species.
What I learned was: Stay the hell away from dragons.
Dunno. I'm pretty sure it was homebrewed—saw it on a Campaign Journal from one "Dungeon Grrl".
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Also, what about undead? Or antipaladins? How would this affect them?
EDIT: What happens if you change creature type while you have a disease? Do you immediately overcome the disease, or did your disease just jump ship and now affects a new type of target? If so, did you just create a new super-bug?
Behold the magically engineered super disease. It's not actually magic, but we managed to get it to jump ship to several different creature types, and by various breeding, templates, and so forth have managed to concoct a super disease that affects everything using an odd mixture of outsider to humanoid to animal to human to androids to lizardfolk to...
Oh, gods, it's all the fault of the druids. By wild shaping while infected with diseases (unknowingly or not bothering to cast remove disease) over the millennia even the most common diseases have evolved to infect all natural species on Golarion. Constant exposure to magic allowed the evolution of ... magic energetic bacterium and viruses which thrive in high magic environments like outsiders and other magical creatures.
Stupid shapeshifting druids.
Or, you know, a God dedicated to disease "encouraged" the diseases to jump types. Yeah. Much better than blaming the druids. They can all go home now and stop giving me dirty looks.
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Dirty, dirty hippies.
Yeah, it seems to me that with pathfinder's abundance of transformation magic, the fact that many creatures are known to be able to use magic innately either as a product of evolution or will of the gods or however else you want to explain it, along with the fact that in real life diseases are capable of jumping species WITHOUT those aids OR shapechanging and libidinous carriers such as druids, dragons, doppelgangers, transforming wizards... you get the drift.
With all those factors involved, it actually kinda makes sense that many diseases would be capable of spreading between wildly different species.
I'd probably divide things into the catagories of stable anatomy (Humanoids, many abominations, animals, most outsiders... anything that can take a critical hit and isn't undead), amorphus anatomy (Oozes, elementals, Gibbering mouthers, ect), Vegetable (Plant and fungi monsters. Technically fungi aren't vegetables, but I'm simplifying).
Anything within the same category which isn't immune is fair game as far as a disease that's been magically spread through most of creation via the will of the gods and the libidos of deranged wizards is concerned.
Actually, with plant shape spells and plant wildshape, I'm changing my mind on spreading between animals and plants. That just leaves oozes...
G+#%#~n filthy cave druids!
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I believe the solution here is to make Periapt of Health standard loot drop for succubi and see how long it takes the PCs to catch on.
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Fun discussion :-)
AFAIK, diseases aren't defined beyond being an "affliction". There's nothing to suggest they have to be bacteria or viruses.
Being an ex Runequest man, I quite like the idea of them being malevolent spirits of some sort.
If they were physical, as such, then I would have to agree with the argument that they are species dependent. One creature's symbiotic bacteria are somebody else's killer disease. Note what happened to the south american indians when Cortes and his bunch arrived carrying all their nasty germs.
Note also that HG Wells had his "outsiders" (Martians) killed off by the common cold :-)
Richard
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Im still stuck laughing about Elementals catching filth fever and being tended to by an Elemental doctor to get better.
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All I know is succubi as disease carries just became way more scary and horrifying...I made something for that. ;)
Lol I actually brought that up earlier with the added idea of succubi with long term std infections eventually transforming into one unless they are aligned with demon lords or other powerful forces whom place an emphasis on disease.
Note that by Ashiel's definition, a rat biting a tree infects it with filth fever.
Filth fever trying to infect animate Fire. Animate earth. Bite a rock and infect it with filth fever! Bite THE AIR and infect it with filth fever!
I AM GOING TO BITE THIS OCEAN AND INFECT IT WITH FILTH FEVER! Because nothing says I can't.
You can see how this breaks down.
So, um, meh.
==Aelryinth
That's pretty much the whole point of them having dr x/- isn't it? Something is holding the matter of the elemental's body together, and you can cut it. When you exceed the strength of that bond (i.e. the hp) what happens? It collapses back into rock/stone/fire/water. They aren't immaterial...they are elemental and very material.
Plants are living creatures and can contract disease. Guess what? By Ashiel's rules, in Golarion you and I can catch blackleaf and wheatblight.
The whole argument is the same as "The rules for being dead don't say you can't get up and walk around." i.e. some things just take common sense.
==Aelryinth
Plants are living creatures and can contract disease. Guess what? By Ashiel's rules, in Golarion you and I can catch blackleaf and wheatblight.
Blackleaf and Wheatblight aren't statted out disease though are they? If they're injury poisons your going to have a hard time catching them.
And yet, plants can still catch diseases. So, by using Ashiel's justification, objects can catch diseases, therefore, I can bite the ocean with a rat twenty times until it fails a roll on a 1, and that object, the ocean, is now infected with filth fever. If I keep biting it, I can up the DC to the point where it can't make the save to get uninfected, and I can eventually kill the ocean! Right? And of course, anyone coming into contact with the ocean now has an excellent chance of catching the disease, too! Bite the ocean in Sandpoint, infect someone in Tian! Woot! Butterfly wings have nothing on me!
And just wait until that hurricane forming over the ocean gets infected!
Ahem.
When an elemental falls apart, it does so into fire, earth, water or air. So, what exactly is filth fever infecting?
And you can totally cut fire, air and water with steel. As a matter of fact, they have 0 hardness and virtually no resistance to being cut. The fact the rest of the material instantly flows back together is a trait of all liquids/gasses/fire. The fact you aren't leaving a gaping hole behind your cut is irrelevant.
You'll notice that when you slice open someone underwater or in open air, the surrounding air/water/fire flows in to occupy the opened space too, right? The same thing happens when you're cutting the air instead.
And remember that elementals deal SLAM attacks. That means they are SOLID. They may be morphable, but that doesn't mean they can flow around killing strikes freely. That fire elemental is hitting you HARD...and setting you on fire as a secondary effect. It's real, it's solid, and you can hack on it.
==Aelryinth
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And yet, plants can still catch diseases. So, by using Ashiel's justification, objects can catch diseases, therefore, I can bite the ocean with a rat twenty times until it fails a roll on a 1, and that object, the ocean, is now infected with filth fever.
Because plants can catch disease, the ocean can? The ocean is a plant?
Plants are creatures btw, not objects.
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There are two types of plants in Pathfinder. Creatures with the plant subtype, which are creatures. Plants that, while alive, do not move, like trees. These are treated as objects.
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Now that you mention it, having the ocean infected with a deadly disease would make a great premise for an adventure. The PCs would have a very limited amount of time to figure out what had caused such a disaster and put a stop to it.
And for your new mission I want you... To blow up the Ocean!