Well, by level 10 you can usually activate an item by taking 1.
Well, by level 10 you can usually activate an item by taking 1.
Not most scrolls.
taking 10 also gives you a constant caster level for the staves which is nice.
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None of that actually makes rogues ineffective. Yes, some people can steal their thunder, but that is different from neutering them.Ok here's why your mistaken.
Exactly. Look, Paizo has decided to allow all the niches to be covered by more than one class. Just because a Sorcerer (or a Witch) can be better than some Wizard builds doesn;t mean the Wizard is useless crud. Just because the Cleric can be out-healed by the Oracle doesn;t mean the Cleric is now passé.
Pathfinder is all about CHOICES in your roles. There are now several choices to fill the trapfinder role, the sneak attack role, the skill monkey role, etc. The rogue does do better at trapfinding than any of them, but since the PF AP's aren't stuffed full of the fiendish Gygaxian traps of the olden days, trapfinding is no longer as critical of a role as it used to be.
True, a archeologist bard can fill the rogues niche pretty well.... but do you as a player want spells or sneak attack? Maybe a bard isn't what you want to play. The Vivisectionist alchemist can do well at sneak attack, but the flavor there is downright nasty. Maybe you, as a player, care about flavor, maybe you want a dashing rogue, not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.
Choices.
The rogue does do better at trapfinding than any of them,
My cryptbreaker alchemist disagrees.
Speaking of choices. It's entirely by choice that you choose to play your alchemist as a scalpel wielding animal torturer versus a dashing rogue. Flavor is a choice too.
Now ima hide this trap.
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Roleplay shouldn't be used as a defense for a class like that imo.
Yeah, one should never use roleplaying as a argument in a roleplaying game. sigh.
It's not a numberplaying game, it's a roleplaying game.
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The rogue does do better at trapfinding than any of them
The rogue wishes he did...
Imo, its still not too hot of a class even without comparing it to others because of its sneak attack mechanics, lack of to hit, rogue talents are still pretty poor, and their still a class that heavily relies on full attacking things with little variance in playstyle.
not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.
Good thing the vivisectionist doesn't actually require you to torture animals or wield scalpels or be a nasty person. Too bad people think it does...
Roleplay shouldn't be used as a defense for a class like that imo.Yeah, one should never use roleplaying as a argument in a roleplaying game. sigh.
It's not a numberplaying game, it's a roleplaying game.
Right, its a roleplaying game. A rules heavy one. And you can roleplay, but that's not a good defense for bad mechanics or ineffective tones. A game should still be made mechanically sound, and saying "well its a roleplaying game" really downplays anything bad about it rather than saying "Hey we should fix it!". Its not like fixing things or making them mechanically good or balanced has to hurt the roleplay. Heck, you can roleplay without rules. There are plenty of rules that work against roleplay too.
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not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.Good thing the vivisectionist doesn't actually require you to torture animals or wield scalpels or be a nasty person. Too bad people think it does...
Yeah, that flavor text put in there for the roleplayers does get in the way sometimes, doesn't it?
"Unlike a chirurgeon, a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil."Of course, one can ignore flavor text. Or not.
Of course, one can ignore flavor text. Or not.
Great we agree.
My problem with skillmonkey replacements for the rogue is that they don't really need to use their skills in combat.
Doesn't really feel like a skill monkey if all I do in combat is cast spells and throw bombs.
There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check. That's a good thing. That really facilitates a play style.
There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check.
Because there is very little the rogue can do in combat? besides weapon snatcher (I believe that is the name) what exactly the rogue do in combat with their skill than some other class can not?
Because there is very little the rogue can do in combat? besides weapon snatcher (I believe that is the name) what exactly the rogue do in combat with their skill than some other class can not?
There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check.
They added new skill stunts in inner sea combat. Their actual value is... debatable.
Because there is very little the rogue can do in combat? besides weapon snatcher (I believe that is the name) what exactly the rogue do in combat with their skill than some other class can not?
There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check.
They added new skill stunts in inner sea combat. Their actual value is... debatable.
Well, the ninja can take that wonderful rogue talent if he so desire.
There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check.Because there is very little the rogue can do in combat? besides weapon snatcher (I believe that is the name) what exactly the rogue do in combat with their skill than some other class can not?
You want to flank? Acrobatics required 9 times out of ten
You want to range sneak attack? Create a diversion to hide(bluff), stealth to hide, shoot. Two skill checks in one round.You want to attack someone from a hiding spot? Breaking stealth, requires stealth check
Next to something without a flanking partner? Feint
Moving around obstacles to the opponent? Acrobatics, climb, stealth, fast stealth
Situation calls for some extra magic? UMD
Most of these are to set up sneak attacks which no other class really needs to worry about. Ninjas get on demand invisibility and can only have one advance rogue talent. Skill mastery doesn't fit many ninja builds. It's a slight difference, but they are only slightly different classes.
Most of these are to set up sneak attacks which no other class really needs to worry about.
I could've sworn we had a conversation about why depending on sneak attack is bad at least twice before.
Also, didn't say much about what a rogue can do with skills another can not.
Most of these are to set up sneak attacks which no other class really needs to worry about.I could've sworn we had a conversation about why depending on sneak attack is bad at least twice before.
Also, didn't say much about what a rogue can do with skills another can not.
Doesn't matter.
No one else is doing these things because they don't have the need too. They don't have the mechanics for it. The one class with comparable sneak attack (vivisectionist) is probably strength based and wouldn't want to trade out a full attack for one sneak attack.
The rogues style of play is not the problem. The damage is lacking and the viable builds are limited.
Acrobatic, climb and stealth are things every other calss can do. Feint is something the vivisecsionist can do too. Those are not special.There is very little a rogue can do in combat that doesn't require a skill check.Because there is very little the rogue can do in combat? besides weapon snatcher (I believe that is the name) what exactly the rogue do in combat with their skill than some other class can not?You want to flank? Acrobatics required 9 times out of ten
You want to range sneak attack? Create a diversion to hide(bluff), stealth to hide, shoot. Two skill checks in one round.
You want to attack someone from a hiding spot? Breaking stealth, requires stealth check
Next to something without a flanking partner? Feint
Moving around obstacles to the opponent? Acrobatics, climb, stealth, fast stealth
Situation calls for some extra magic? UMDMost of these are to set up sneak attacks which no other class really needs to worry about. Ninjas get on demand invisibility and can only have one advance rogue talent. Skill mastery doesn't fit many ninja builds. It's a slight difference, but they are only slightly different classes.
Theorycraft vs actual play
Any character you see that is not a rogue and does the above routinely? Even if they could, do they actually do it?
NOTE: I also have skill mastery in all those skill but climb, which is mimic-able by one class that wouldn't do it.
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not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.Good thing the vivisectionist doesn't actually require you to torture animals or wield scalpels or be a nasty person. Too bad people think it does...Yeah, that flavor text put in there for the roleplayers does get in the way sometimes, doesn't it?
"Unlike a chirurgeon, a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil."Of course, one can ignore flavor text. Or not.
So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy. If he were doing this at say, a morgue or a research laboratory, and someone heard a noise and wanted directions from him, and saw a guy with a mask on cutting someone up and sewing him back together, especially if it is late at night, they might assume that a perfectly innocent form of research was evil, and that a LG Alchemist was likely to become a serial killer. That guy who never got directions would probably tell his friend about his late-night experience with the vivisectionist, and the rumor would spread, making most people consider hands-on anatomical research to be evil. Thus the flavor text is written.
The rogues style of play is not the problem. The damage is lacking and the viable builds are limited.
THis statement I can agree. Skills should be the main trick for rogues, but rogue talents just fail in that regard.
So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy. If he were doing this at say, a morgue or a research laboratory, and someone heard a noise and wanted directions from him, and saw a guy with a mask on cutting someone up and sewing him back together, especially if it is late at night, they might assume that a perfectly innocent form of research was evil, and that a LG Alchemist was likely to become a serial killer. That guy who never got directions would probably tell his friend about his late-night experience with the vivisectionist, and the rumor would spread, making most people consider hands-on anatomical research to be evil. Thus the flavor text is written.
Considering all the progress in the PF universe, I'm pretty sure science is considered an evil act :P
So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy. If he were doing this at say, a morgue or a research laboratory, and someone heard a noise and wanted directions from him, and saw a guy with a mask on cutting someone up and sewing him back together, especially if it is late at night, they might assume that a perfectly innocent form of research was evil, and that a LG Alchemist was likely to become a serial killer. That guy who never got directions would probably tell his friend about his late-night experience with the vivisectionist, and the rumor would spread, making most people consider hands-on anatomical research to be evil. Thus the flavor text is written.Considering all the progress in the PF universe, I'm pretty sure science is considered an evil act :P
Well... the god of science is an evil aligned demon lord...
Confirming that Butters from the Dresden Files books is one of the most evil, eviliest evildoers that ever did evil.[
not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.Good thing the vivisectionist doesn't actually require you to torture animals or wield scalpels or be a nasty person. Too bad people think it does...Yeah, that flavor text put in there for the roleplayers does get in the way sometimes, doesn't it?
"Unlike a chirurgeon, a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil."Of course, one can ignore flavor text. Or not.
He does have the talking skull (I'm simplifying Dresden fans) that used to belong to the world's evilest necromancer, after all.
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Did someone say Butters and evil?
He's half the reason to watch that show, IMO. My favorite character, by far.
The most recent Dresden Files book makes references to Butters as Evil hilarious.
Just for the record. ;)
Indeed and while I'm compelled to use "the quote", I will refrain. (Seriously, finish Skin Game people.)
Rogue talents are often horribly designed to be inferior to existing options. If fighters wish that feats were as potent as rage powers, rogues wish talents were as potent as feats.
Seriously, is there anyone who reads 'Steal the Story' or 'Black Market Connections' and gets excited about the possibilities for their character?
I love black market connections. I mean say you are playing RotRL. No time to craft, all the cities have limited magic items. So by having this talent you can boost a location's GP limit and Magic Items available by up to 2 sizes larger.
So you could be in small town and boost the GP limit from 5000 to 25000. This is great for selling loot. Nothing worse an item worth 10,000 gp and not being able to sell it. Now you can. Now you want to buy a the base value goes from 1000 gp to 4000 gp. That's 75% chance that any item that value or lower can be found that week including magic items. Want a belt of giant str +2, 75% chance it's there now. As well for items above the base value you 3D4 to 4D4 minor, 1D6 to 3D4 medium and now you have access to 1D6 major.
When we play RotRl we didn't have this and we had so much treasure we couldn't sell and we were loaded with gold. I mean I had +2 sword for most the game because no place had anything better and I wasn't even focused on a weapon, it just had to a two handed weapon.
So you could be in small town and boost the GP limit from 5000 to 25000. This is great for selling loot. Nothing worse an item worth 10,000 gp and not being able to sell it. Now you can. Now you want to buy a the base value goes from 1000 gp to 4000 gp. That's 75% chance that any item that value or lower can be found that week including magic items. Want a belt of giant str +2, 75% chance it's there now. As well for items above the base value you 3D4 to 4D4 minor, 1D6 to 3D4 medium and now you have access to 1D6 major.
For what its worth, I think use the rules for purchasing like that may be some sort of masochistic ritual where you have to lament your lack of gear and hope the GM gives you what you need. Its also a little situational, and as you level eventually you'll just be able to teleport to a large city to get what you want, or a few even. YMMV.
So you could be in small town and boost the GP limit from 5000 to 25000. This is great for selling loot. Nothing worse an item worth 10,000 gp and not being able to sell it. Now you can. Now you want to buy a the base value goes from 1000 gp to 4000 gp. That's 75% chance that any item that value or lower can be found that week including magic items. Want a belt of giant str +2, 75% chance it's there now. As well for items above the base value you 3D4 to 4D4 minor, 1D6 to 3D4 medium and now you have access to 1D6 major.For what its worth, I think use the rules for purchasing like that may be some sort of masochistic ritual where you have to lament your lack of gear and hope the GM gives you what you need. Its also a little situational, and as you level eventually you'll just be able to teleport to a large city to get what you want, or a few even. YMMV.
We did eventually get to teleport problem was how do you teleport to place you've never been? So we traveled to a bigger city then teleported back. Even the large city, you get more there too with black market ties.
But I guess that's the original poster was getting at about neutering the rogue. If you make it too easy to get magic item and sell loot then you nullify the effect of a good rogue talent. Now you can do this to little effect game wise but then you end up with people who like the rogue complaining about how useless they feel.
A spell making a rogue talent superfluous isn't exactly limited to teleport and black market connections.
A spell making a rogue talent superfluous isn't exactly limited to teleport and black market connections.
Climbing stunt! Not as cool as just having a climb speed and everybody in the world seems to learn to fly at one point.
A spell making a rogue talent superfluous isn't exactly limited to teleport and black market connections.
No spell let's just buy 100K gold+ items. Black Market connections in a metropolis does.
Casters have to spend time crafting that stuff.
Confirming that Butters from the Dresden Files books is one of the most evil, eviliest evildoers that ever did evil.[
not a nasty scalpel wielding animal torturer.Good thing the vivisectionist doesn't actually require you to torture animals or wield scalpels or be a nasty person. Too bad people think it does...Yeah, that flavor text put in there for the roleplayers does get in the way sometimes, doesn't it?
"Unlike a chirurgeon, a vivisectionist's goals are not related to healing, but rather to experimentation and knowledge that most people would consider evil."Of course, one can ignore flavor text. Or not.
Do you know what Vivisectionist means? It means cut apart while still alive. Butters is a dissectionist, a medical examiner- they are opposites.
Josef Mengele was a vivisectionist, and so were the doctors in Unit 731.
So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.
That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
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So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
I've cut open a living brain-dead frog before. That doesn't make me evil...
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So, a vivisectionist is dissecting people and animals who died of natural causes and had donated their corpses to science so that they can have a better understanding of anatomy.That is a dissectionist. Note that "died" part. If they are dead when he's cutting them up, he's not a Vivisectionist.
Huh. Learn something new every day. So a Vivisectionist is in the process of vivisecting magical clones that were inanimate but otherwise anatomically identical to their living counterpart, who were donated to science, so that he could have a better understanding of anatomy.[insert rest of spiel about how the rumor spread].
or
So, an Alchemist is dissecting human and animal corpses that had been donated to research late at night to gain a better understanding of anatomy. At some point, a wandering stranger walks by his lab, sees a light on, and walks in looking for directions to [wherever]. He sees the Alchemist holding a human heart, panics, and runs screaming from the place. In a rush to explain himself, the Alchemist runs after the stranger, and forgets to take of his mask. The bystander gets away and starts spreading rumours that the crazy guy working in the lab is a vivisectionist and a serial murderer. Eventually everyone in town starts spreading rumours that quickly sweep the globe, making most people think that most people who engage in both alchemical studies and biological studies are cruel vivisectionists who pursue evil knowledge. Thus the flavor text is written.