Every one of the other classes has some tasks they're not as good at as a rogue. The rogue is a generalist class, with the ability to do a lot of different things. So many that in almost any adventuring party there will be some things the rogue does better than anybody else in the group. Frequently (but not always), finding and removing traps will be among those. Getting into highly inaccessible places (using Acrobatics, Climb, and/or Escape Artist) is also a likely candidate. If nobody is playing a bard, negotiating with NPCs is yet another task where a rogue can easily shine.
Actually a lot of classes are better at the rogue than something. Rogue has a pretty low potential because of his lack of ability to actually boost his skill checks beyond 'moar ranks' and in class. A large part of the rogue's problem is that skill checks can be replaced with spells. Why climb or jump when you can fly or spider climb or cast jump? Coupled with not having the most skill points(int based casters get more, bard gets an insane number). Skill pints also have hard and soft caps, so there's such a thing as too many in some cases which is good for the guys with not so much and it takes system mastery to know when sometimes. Lots of reasons. The rogue isn't really the best, though he may be better than another, if his modifier is higher or they don't bother to put skill ranks into it, which isn't really much of a victory. Coupled with his lack of combat skills, he's not doing so hot. Good thing is, other classes can fill the rogue niche, and one of them is even mundane and looks like he'd be pretty cool at combat, not suffering from lack of hit or static damage.
You aren't really giving examples for why the rogue is good or better beyond the idea that someone else hasn't hit up the skill already. That's not really a good defense. The guy who picks rogue also has several other options, and if they can fill the concept and do the job better, that's not inherently a bad thing, but it does suck if there's a class that isn't really up to par, especially an iconic.
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The bread and butter is skill mastery which other classes have to use resources to compensate for the lack of.
Something I have to ask here; is Skill Mastery the only thing for the Rogue to hang their hat on? An ability they don't have for half their careers? Since that and UMD seem to be your biggest sticking points.
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More than half. How many campaigns reach 20? How many even hit ten? You're laying it on so thick for that ONE ability that the character may as well be useless before then.
You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.
Nothing eventually comes up in an adventure without the GM specifically putting it there. Enemies are hand-picked, especially the "boss" characters. I could very easily run an entire campaign without a single a single evil outsider or supernatural being even making an appearance. I'd just have the focus be on the royal court: politics, espionage, and secret plots. Combat of any kind would be rare, and when it occurred it would be against high level NPCs, not monsters.
At the other end of the social spectrum, an entire campaign could also be based around the thieves' guild of a major city. This would probably involve a lot more combat than the royal court, but again the opponents would be humans, elves, halflings, etc. rather than monsters.
With the right group of players, either of these campaigns could be a lot of fun. Others, of course, would find them dreadfully boring.
(Honestly, I have to shake my head in disbelief at the idea that having a rogue in the group means the GM has to add more - or more challenging - traps. The correct phrase for every GM I've ever known - and I've been playing RPGs for a long time now - isn't "has to" but "gets to.")
You know what's funny? Even if there isn't a single evil outsider in a campaign, the Paladin still has to things to do. The Paladin can still use Lay on Hands to heal. The Paladin still has strong saves compared to other non-Barbarian martials. The Paladin can still cast divine spells. The Paladin still has charisma as a major stat and can invest in diplomacy if needed.
A Rogue without skill checks doesn't really get to do anything. And if the skill check isn't for disabling a magical trap, a Bard or an Alchemist can do it just as well while still having plenty of utility in other areas.
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You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.
Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
Great! We can all do it. Now uhh... where else are you helpful? The wizard has his fireballs, the cleric has his healing, the slayer is you know... stalking and slaying. Where'd the rogue fit in again?
The bread and butter is skill mastery which other classes have to use resources to compensate for the lack of.Something I have to ask here; is Skill Mastery the only thing for the Rogue to hang their hat on? An ability they don't have for half their careers? Since that and UMD seem to be your biggest sticking points.
It also comes online when Int casters get really close to surpassing the rogue in skill points (my builds are only 12 per level).
It's also the point when you need to start getting a sneak attack every round.
Little things like fast stealth are also important, but I consider 7-9 to be the toughest area for the rogue.
More than half. How many campaigns reach 20? How many even hit ten? You're laying it on so thick for that ONE ability that the character may as well be useless before then.
You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.
I find that mid levels take the longest. Early levels tend to be quicker in groups that don't really like them. Late levels take longer, but fewer campaigns get there.
When you use the staff instead of the wizard and the wizard then cast another spell, is that not something? The party is like "we need to nova", being able to burn those resources faster is being helpful.
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Great! We can all do it. Now uhh... where else are you helpful? The wizard has his fireballs, the cleric has his healing, the slayer is you know... stalking and slaying. Where'd the rogue fit in again?You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
The rogue has his fireballs, has his healing, has his Sneak Attack, has his Evasion, has his high skill points, has his customization with skills, etc....
Great! We can all do it. Now uhh... where else are you helpful? The wizard has his fireballs, the cleric has his healing, the slayer is you know... stalking and slaying. Where'd the rogue fit in again?You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
Diplomacy. Bluff. Trapfinding. Flanking with the slayer. Perception. Trapspotter. UMD. Mind you, sure the Slayer is the Combat Rogue, so if what you want is Combat, then it's great.
The rogue has his fireballs, has his healing, has his Sneak Attack, has his Evasion, has his high skill points, has his customization with skills, etc....Great! We can all do it. Now uhh... where else are you helpful? The wizard has his fireballs, the cleric has his healing, the slayer is you know... stalking and slaying. Where'd the rogue fit in again?You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
Not finding rogue class feature fireballs and healing... Or is this the other players giving him a staff so he can choose not to use his rogue class features? It probably isn't some sort of spellcasting we're talking about, and in the case of UMD a commoner can fill that role, and a bard or vivisectionist is likely to fill that role and then do more, because its another case of "I can do what you can do, and then do this other thing". Which is one of the reasons UMD isn't so hot.
Is there something about other people's skill list that isn't customizable? Did someone tell the slayer he had to put all his points into knowledge or something? I mean can't be bard, that guy has 6+ to put where he wants and the rest is gravy.
Diplomacy. Bluff. Trapfinding. Flanking with the slayer. Perception. Trapspotter. UMD. Mind you, sure the Slayer is the Combat Rogue, so if what you want is Combat, then it's great.
The joke was everyone else in the party could bring that and more, so the rogue ended up being that one guy who you say "wait, why do we have you again?" I mean, if he can fill those slots then great! But if someone else fills them, does them better, and does other things, its kind of iffy. That said, most games have combat, and this game's rules are very combat heavy.
You know who else can use a magic staff of fiery infernos? The wizard. YOu know who else can use the staff of healing? The cleric. Your ability to do both? Completely irrelevant if both are standing next to you.
Well the same can be said of other classes when talking about the rogue.
Disable Traps, scouting, and other things are irrelevant when there is a rogue standing next to you.
The opportunity cost of selecting a rogue is too high.
If your argument is so shallow that all you can do is laugh at other posters and assume their inexperience, don't bother.
I find that mid levels take the longest. Early levels tend to be quicker in groups that don't really like them. Late levels take longer, but fewer campaigns get there.When you use the staff instead of the wizard and the wizard then cast another spell, is that not something? The party is like "we need to nova", being able to burn those resources faster is being helpful.
It's tentative, but I'm finding a UMD specialist is better served by a Sorcerer False Priest Sage.
Or a Seeker Sage Sorcerer for skills and Trapfinding.
As for the nova issue, It would probably be more likely to nova with more potency with another caster than a Rogue spending resources or etc.
Still tentative researching.
If your argument is so shallow that all you can do is laugh at other posters and assume their inexperience, don't bother.
Can we agree that I haven't done that? I've gotten mad at rogue defenders for doing that.
When you use the staff instead of the wizard and the wizard then cast another spell, is that not something? The party is like "we need to nova", being able to burn those resources faster is being helpful.
It is incredibly little. You could just as easily be a full WBL peasant carrying around staves for the wizard, or better yet another wizard with their own blasty stick.
If your argument is so shallow that all you can do is laugh at other posters and assume their inexperience, don't bother.Can we agree that I haven't done that? I've gotten mad at rogue defenders for doing that.
You haven't.
When you use the staff instead of the wizard and the wizard then cast another spell, is that not something? The party is like "we need to nova", being able to burn those resources faster is being helpful.It is incredibly little. You could just as easily be a full WBL peasant carrying around staves for the wizard, or better yet another wizard with their own blasty stick.
A barbarian pulling out his bow for that one range combat encounter is not worthless because the ranger could fire the bow better.
Hmm, wheres this skill mastery thing coming from.
Skill mastery is a CRB advanced rogue talent. Pretty sure it was in 3.0 too.
Diplomacy. Bluff. Trapfinding. Flanking with the slayer. Perception. Trapspotter. UMD. Mind you, sure the Slayer is the Combat Rogue, so if what you want is Combat, then it's great.The joke was everyone else in the party could bring that and more, so the rogue ended up being that one guy who you say "wait, why do we have you again?" I mean, if he can fill those slots then great! But if...
You gave a party list of "The wizard has his fireballs, the cleric has his healing, the slayer "
None of those are very good at social skills, altho there are cleric builds which focus on Channeling, thus CHA can be decent thus Diplomacy won;t suck, but with only two Skill points and needing other skills, there's an issue. Some folks even dump Int here.
Some cleric builds might be melee combat oriented and flank, but not the wizard. I have not seen the final Slayer so I am not sure what his class skills are, but having more Perception is always good. Nor am I sure if the slayer has trapfinding and trapspotting.
In that party, the Rogue and Slayer players would make sure all the right skills are either covered or doubled up. (The Wizard would handle some Int based skills). The Slayer and Rogue would flank with each other, the Slayer being a little tougher with more HP and better BAB, but worse Sneak attack.
So, a Rogue would fit this party great. I'd prefer a Inquisitor, maybe.
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When you use the staff instead of the wizard and the wizard then cast another spell, is that not something? The party is like "we need to nova", being able to burn those resources faster is being helpful.It is incredibly little. You could just as easily be a full WBL peasant carrying around staves for the wizard, or better yet another wizard with their own blasty stick.
Mmmmmm no, I'm afraid you are incorrect.
With Skill Mastery you could walk around auto succeeding on all UMD checks. But oh wait there's more. I walk around auto succeeding with items made for Wizards, Clerics, Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Druids, etc....
The rogue could actually do a bit of all spellcasting classes.
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All I'm really insisting on is that if the GM allows a character into the game at all, then they have a responsibility to let the player actually play that character and not just stand around watching everybody else's CMOA.
I'm actually not a big fan of that design philosophy. I'd rather things be useful out of the box than useful if someone designs the game to make them useful. Especially with things like APs and Scenarios. It adds work to the game, and as said earlier, you shouldn't have to design the game around spotlights while other people sit out because their character was designed to be inept.
Hmm, wheres this skill mastery thing coming from. If this is such an integral part of the rogue then it needs to be taken into account with regards to the playstyle differences. It would make me think that rather then the rogue being just about less bookkeeping it is about doing less things at the table.
Skill Mastery is a Rogue talent gained at 10th level that Marthkus values quite highly with reason.
With extremely good optimization, it can be used to guarantee the results of many skill checks.
I place less value in it due to my dislike of the take 10 mechanic when in dangerous situations. It's a bit too auto pilot feeling for my liking but thats a taste issue. I consider dice rolling to be integral and try to avoid avoiding dice rolls as much as possible. Which is why I don't play Wizards since "God doesn't play dice..."
Something I have noticed about these rogue discussions is the class is being compared to about two or three other classes.
I would say the rogue is pretty damn special if it takes two or three classes to equal the one class.
Right, because being compared to several classes is the same as being compared to them all at the same time to make one rogue.
Except its not. Its several individual examples of him being shown up.
Is... is that actually what you thought I said?
It's not Bard and Alchemist. It's Bard or Alchemist. They're both sufficient at skills and have other ways to contribute to the game.
The rogue could actually do a bit of all spellcasting classes.
As could anyone with UMD and unlimited cash. The problem is that your cash IS limited, and you need to wait till the middle if not the end to even HOPE you reach the point where you have an advantage over the peasant in the form of your ability to take 10 for UMD.
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I have not seen the final Slayer so I am not sure what his class skills are, but having more Perception is always good. Nor am I sure if the slayer has trapfinding and trapspotting.
It had Trapfinding and Trap Spotter as an available Slayer talent to take individually. And considering no one complained about it in the Slayer feedback, I'd wager it'll make it into the final version.
The class skill list should remain mostly the same though we might get Diplomacy added.
How do you figure that? A wizard or witch needs INT 24 to get more skill points than an INT 10 rogue. An alchemist needs INT 20, and a bard INT 16. If the rogue has INT 15, then the bard needs INT 20, the alchemists needs INT 24, and the wizard or witch needs INT 28 to have more skill points. And there's certainly nothing limiting how high a rogue's INT can be....
A cleverly built Bard, who plans ahead can get some very nice skills by using Versatile Performance. But putting LOTS of points in say Oratory you can get those in Perform, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so they count triple. But after that first one, there's diminishing returns, the list of skills aren't so useful or overlap*, and then there's little use for more than two Maxed out perform skills.
Since Diplomacy and Sense Motive are very useful, then a Bard effectively gets two bonus Skp/lvl when Maxing out Perform Oratory.
Still, that only makes her = to a rogue.
* I took Dance for my 6th level, but after that, there's little return for this class skill. Even so little use for Fly.
I'd leave out Diplomacy tbh, it doesn't fit thematically. The Slayer doesn't have to handle every skill check, just the ones happen in dungeons or the wilderness. Leave the Bard the talky stuff.
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As could anyone with UMD and unlimited cash. The problem is that your cash IS limited, and you need to wait till the middle if not the end to even HOPE you reach the point where you have an advantage over the peasant in the take 10 for your UMD.
The rogue could actually do a bit of all spellcasting classes.
Even when you can't take 10 yet, you can still have an impressive UMD by taking Skill Focus and just putting in those many skill points you get at every level.
I've never ever seen a rogue with cash problems. Scrolls are rather cheap and wands will last you a good while so resources aren't a problem.
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The rogue just need more rogue-only rogue talent taht are not horrible useless like the ones in inner sea combat. And people should let paizo know that. Trying to deny that do not help the game, seriously.
Still, that only makes her = to a rogue.* I took Dance for my 6th level, but after that, there's little return for this class skill. Even so little use for Fly.
And then the bard takes pageant of the peacock. Suddenly that dance skill is worth dance and acrobatics and fly AND all 10 knowledge skills.
I'd leave out Diplomacy tbh, it doesn't fit thematically. The Slayer doesn't have to handle every skill check, just the ones happen in dungeons or the wilderness. Leave the Bard the talky stuff.
Bards get lots of synergy and will still trump in social situations.
I'm only interested since Gathering Information falls under Diplomacy. Which is important when you're trying to hunt down your mark.
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I'd leave out Diplomacy tbh, it doesn't fit thematically. The Slayer doesn't have to handle every skill check, just the ones happen in dungeons or the wilderness. Leave the Bard the talky stuff.Bards get lots of synergy and will still trump in social situations.
I'm only interested since Gathering Information falls under Diplomacy. Which is important when you're trying to hunt down your mark.
perhaps they should get the ability to use intimidate for gather info while dangling people off of roofs...
As could anyone with UMD and unlimited cash. The problem is that your cash IS limited, and you need to wait till the middle if not the end to even HOPE you reach the point where you have an advantage over the peasant in the form of your ability to take 10 for UMD.
The rogue could actually do a bit of all spellcasting classes.
Only three classes have UMD as a class skill, and only one of them can Take Ten with it during combat. (OK, there's a archetype somewhere that might, sure).
The rogue also has effectively two bonus feats. Thus, Skill Focus.
So comparing a Rogue to a peasant is disingenuous.
And if we're throwing in archetypes, the Ninja and the Scout can do very well in combat. In fact I saw a Half-orc Scout with a falchoin who was deadly.
An alchemist needs INT 20
An Alchemist matches Rogues at 18 Int which is generally reached quickly since they're Int based pseudo-casters who benefit from a high Int.
Combined with something like Mindchemist and Vivisectionist you acquire a solid amount of skill bonuses to make up for the difference in ranks. Vivisectionist gives you a one for two with Heal and Knowledge Nature while Mindchemist lets you double your Int bonus on any Knowledge Skill.
The rogue just need more rogue-only rogue talent taht are not horrible useless like the ones in inner sea combat. And people should let paizo know that. Trying to deny that do not help the game, seriously.
I think that people have been talking about rogue talents not being too good long before the inner sea combat book. Not sure if its even helpful to point out problems.
Still, probably not helpful to defend the weakest and not ask for a change.
And then the bard takes pageant of the peacock. Suddenly that dance skill is worth dance and acrobatics and fly AND all 10 knowledge skills.
Still, that only makes her = to a rogue.* I took Dance for my 6th level, but after that, there's little return for this class skill. Even so little use for Fly.
and spellcraft and appraise and a few other things. You can even make a skill like heal int based, which is hilarious imo. Bluff for heal.
Only three classes have UMD as a class skill, and only one of them can Take Ten with it during combat. (OK, there's a archetype somewhere that might, sure).
Sorcerers, Bards, Alchemists, some Oracles, Summoners, Witches, Magi, or anyone else who takes a trait.
perhaps they should get the ability to use intimidate for gather info while dangling people off of roofs...I'd leave out Diplomacy tbh, it doesn't fit thematically. The Slayer doesn't have to handle every skill check, just the ones happen in dungeons or the wilderness. Leave the Bard the talky stuff.Bards get lots of synergy and will still trump in social situations.
I'm only interested since Gathering Information falls under Diplomacy. Which is important when you're trying to hunt down your mark.
This is acceptable.
Only three classes have UMD as a class skill
1) A class skill is merely a +3 bonus. By level 10 a sorcerer has that on charisma alone.
2) Anyone can take the trait dangerously curious.3) Anyone can buy a circlet of persuasion.
and only one of them can Take Ten with it during combat.
Taking 10 loses much of its attractiveness when you start succeeding on a 1 or a 2.
You can only do that in the latter half to very end of your career.
The rogue also has effectively two bonus feats. Thus, Skill Focus.
Unless this is ALL the rogue is going to do, they need to put their feats somewhere else.
So comparing a Rogue to a peasant is disingenuous.
For most of the campaign they have the same UMD. You need a better argument to tell me i'm wrong, you're not even CLOSE to telling me I'm disingenuous.