Greetings Fellow Gamers,
I'm building a cleric of Iomedae and I am trying to make them as close to being a paladin as possible, but only taking levels in cleric (with no archetypes).
Started off as a back-field caster, but our party needs another front-liner, so I am trying to fulfill that role.
Current Feats: Scribe Scroll, Reach Spell, Toughness, Craft Magic Arms & Armor.
I've been putting my favored class bonus into hit points so far, and have a respectable amount there (48 at 5th Level)
Armor class is a little low for our level, but I plan on fixing that when we get some downtime in Magnimar. (AC 17)
I'm trying to find a good balance between buff-caster and warrior.
(I am trying to avoid 'dipping' into a different class, but if I did... what might you recommend?
Stats: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 14
Thank you for your time!
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
(I am trying to avoid 'dipping' into a different class, but if I did... what might you recommend?--Bacon
A Cleric/Cavalier would be a good Paladin-like character.
Warpriest/Cavalier would probably be even more Paladin-like.
Horse Master would make the Mount based on your character level, but requires a 4 level dip, which is steep for a caster.
I know you said no archetypes, but the Crusader archetype seems fitting.
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Straight cleric is fine. You might buy Bastard Sword proficiency, fight with your sword and heavy shield. Get every magic plus you can on your armor and shield, plus ring of protection and amulet of natural armor. Buy weapon focus if you really feel like you needed.
We have one of these in our party, and he's our party tank.
Longsword is only 1 HP of damage less per hit on average. No reason to put a feat into bastard sword proficiency.
Swords do more damage when wielded two-handed, especially with power attack.
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Your stats are...shaky for a frontliner. That's your big problem really.
Doing the Paladin role is quite easy for Clerics in general, just grab Heavy Armor Proficiency (something I think all Clerics should do) and Power Attack and go to town after some self-buffs.
Your character however has some issues. Melee frontliners with Str 14 don't tend to do well, nor do ones who've got neither of the essential Feats mentioned above and aren't likely to acquire them for several levels.
Could you possibly get a bit of a rebuild? Just swapping Str and Wis and dropping a Feat for Heavy Armor Proficiency would go a long way.
Either a Reach Cleric or a Summoning Cleric seems like it would do wonders here, perhaps even both with Sacred Summons.
Put the 18 in your STR if you want to be a frontline buttkicker, and a 14 in your WIS. Don't cast spells that allow saving throws.
if you've got decent (~14+) dex: consider combat reflexes. grab a reach weapon+spiked gauntlet and passively attack folks who provoke AoOs on their tunrs, while reserving your turns for more casting if you need it to be (you could also attack as well, obviously).
wear a breastplate if you aren't already.
what race are you? if you're a dwarf, you could grab a dwarven waraxe (one-handed reach weapon for dwarves), gauntlet or boulder helm (melee), and wear a buckler (shield AC boost, keeps hand free for casting)
if not, just grab a reach weapon and take your hand off if it on your turns to cast (free action), do so, then put your hand back on it (also a free action)
Are you a front-liner as a warm body who keeps the wizard from getting attacked who will still cast spells, or are you a front-liner to fill the role of hitting people with sharp objects?
I'm warm-body in combat. I'm trying to step into the role that was left open by the loss of our cavalier. We have a Barbarian Alchemist who does most of the front-line duty now, but she is kind of on her own, and tends to get pretty beat up pretty quick.
I'm already at 5th level, so I can't make any changes to what has already been chosen. Our development is kinda organic as the campaign progresses.
Much to my frustration, the DM does NOT allow retraining.
Doing the Paladin role is quite easy for Clerics in general, just grab Heavy Armor Proficiency (something I think all Clerics should do) and Power Attack and go to town after some self-buffs.
Heavy Armor Proficiency is on my radar, and I was considering a dip into fighter, paladin, or cavalier to get access to it... Fighter might be best because I could get Weapon Focus as well as Heavy Armor proficiency.
I'm a little worried about the hit I would take to my Channel Energy and Spellcasting though.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Are you a front-liner as a warm body who keeps the wizard from getting attacked who will still cast spells, or are you a front-liner to fill the role of hitting people with sharp objects?I'm warm-body in combat. I'm trying to step into the role that was left open by the loss of our cavalier. We have a Barbarian Alchemist who does most of the front-line duty now, but she is kind of on her own, and tends to get pretty beat up pretty quick.
I'm already at 5th level, so I can't make any changes to what has already been chosen. Our development is kinda organic as the campaign progresses.
Much to my frustration, the DM does NOT allow retraining.
Doing the Paladin role is quite easy for Clerics in general, just grab Heavy Armor Proficiency (something I think all Clerics should do) and Power Attack and go to town after some self-buffs.Heavy Armor Proficiency is on my radar, and I was considering a dip into fighter, paladin, or cavalier to get access to it... Fighter might be best because I could get Weapon Focus as well as Heavy Armor proficiency.
I'm a little worried about the hit I would take to my Channel Energy and Spellcasting though.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
You don't need fighter levels for weapon focus.
I know I don't need it. but when/if I take a level in fighter, I get a bonus feat. And Weapon Focus is a pretty reasonable suggestion.
Respectfully,
--Bacon
Losing the spellcasting progression isn't worth the few extra feats from a fighter dip. Remember: with that extra spell level you'll have more, better and stronger buffs, which are likely to give you bonuses greater than +1 anyway.
If you want to be the knight in shining armour, just take heavy armour prof and power attack, buff yourself up with extended spells and go to town. Clerics already make great notpaladins and melee fighters straight out of the box.
In terms of stats: your stats are fine, just focus on getting a belt of strength before a headband of wisdom and things will even out.
i can solve this whole issue with 2 levels and a feat...
go hit 7th level and take leadership- pick a paladin for your cohort and boom, you're done
(hire some npc meatshields, or memorize a bunch of your higher summon monster spells for the next 2 levels)
If the DM allowed Leadership, I would have totally hired a paladin as a cohort.
I'm on the brink of level 7, and am leaning towards:
* Heavy Armor Proficiency
* Fortified Armor training
* Alignment Channel
* Extend Spell
* Quicken Spell
* Forge Ring
* Martial Weapon Proficiency Heavy Shield Bash
* Something else awesome that I haven't even thought of yet.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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I think a 1-level dip in Fighter or Paladin might be a good choice, even if you have to give up a caster level for it. You'll get the armor and weapon proficiencies, a tad more HP, +1 BAB, a boost to your Fort save (and possibly Will as well), and either a bonus feat or Smite Evil, both of which can help you make targets pay attention to you over your party members. Nothing says LOOK AT ME like a Morningstar to the teeth! :)
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Nothing says LOOK AT ME like a Morningstar to the teeth! :)4 word for you. Make a Will Save
Too bad it's not on the Paladin or Cleric spell list. A level dip in Inquisitor would probably not be quite as effective for our Cleric OP friend, sadly, given what he hopes to pick up.
In all honesty, I think the group can probably get by without a dedicated "tank" so long as people are willing to be a little more cautious. The poor Alchemist/Barbarian may get beat up a lot, but if the group pools their resources to help buff them up and keep them from dying, it'll probably make due. Also summoning spells. Lots of summoning spells.
The poor Alchemist/Barbarian was murdered by a dhampir wizard. (Critically hit with a scorching ray, dropped her out of her rage, and straight into dead)
Even without Heavy Armor Proficiency, I have the highest AC in the party. And 2nd Highest HP total... I'm kind of evolving into the default role of tank. We have a Brawler who will pass me when she levels) and a Cavalier who will at best be equal to my HP.
There is a paladin too, but he's a level below, sacrificed smite evil for an archetype, and only has chainmail and no shield. (I'm hoping he has some sort of long-form build... but I'm not seeing the end state yet).
I might turn my Heavy Shield into a +1 Bashing Shield and make it my primary weapon, so I'll always have a free hand for spellcasting (would need Improved Shield Bash, so the fighter level dip might be considered).
I was talking to the Bard about the possibility of summon spells (all boosted with his bardic music for the win) Spell Focus (Conjuration) might not be a terrible feat option, since Cure Spells are Conjuration, and using them against undead wouldn't be a terrible option. Then I can get Augment Summoning/Summon Good Monster/Sacred Summon/Superior Summoning (But that is a very dedicated feat path to start pursuing mid-game)
But Extend Spell might suit my purposes better. I can extend my summons, and my buff spells...
I appreciate your inputs and feedback!
Still thinking on it. I've got until the latter part of August before our next session.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Are you a front-liner as a warm body who keeps the wizard from getting attacked who will still cast spells, or are you a front-liner to fill the role of hitting people with sharp objects?I'm warm-body in combat. I'm trying to step into the role that was left open by the loss of our cavalier. We have a Barbarian Alchemist who does most of the front-line duty now, but she is kind of on her own, and tends to get pretty beat up pretty quick.
I'm already at 5th level, so I can't make any changes to what has already been chosen. Our development is kinda organic as the campaign progresses.
Much to my frustration, the DM does NOT allow retraining.
Doing the Paladin role is quite easy for Clerics in general, just grab Heavy Armor Proficiency (something I think all Clerics should do) and Power Attack and go to town after some self-buffs.Heavy Armor Proficiency is on my radar, and I was considering a dip into fighter, paladin, or cavalier to get access to it... Fighter might be best because I could get Weapon Focus as well as Heavy Armor proficiency.
I'm a little worried about the hit I would take to my Channel Energy and Spellcasting though.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
Lord Verminaard from dragonlance was a cleric and he used to B-slap Kitara (a fighter) around like she was his serving wench. I don't recall him having any super strength.
If I were you, I'd take some crafting feats and make your own combat goodies… a little girdle of +4 STR +4 con will go along way, until then self buff with spells.
I'd rather blow a feat on something like great sword than level dip, personally.
I have currently have 100% of the party's crafting feats (Scribe Scroll and Craft Arms & Armor) I will be taking Craft Staff at 9th.
The party witch is planning on taking wondrous item at 7th level.
Craft Wondrous Item on my own could keep me in Pearls of Power for days, and take some of the burden off the witch.
Craft Wand could really increase my buff/upkeep spells. (And crafting a wand of Reach Cure Light wounds to give the archer bard would let me relax a bit on being the "primary" healer.)
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
I have currently have 100% of the party's crafting feats (Scribe Scroll and Craft Arms & Armor) I will be taking Craft Staff at 9th.
The party witch is planning on taking wondrous item at 7th level.
Craft Wondrous Item on my own could keep me in Pearls of Power for days, and take some of the burden off the witch.
Craft Wand could really increase my buff/upkeep spells. (And crafting a wand of Reach Cure Light wounds to give the archer bard would let me relax a bit on being the "primary" healer.)Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
There's a witch and a bard.
You can't be a front liner and a "Primary Healer"
They can all come begging for healing once the fight is done.
But it sounds like you are trying to build a soloist and carry party baggage too.
They can all come begging for healing once the fight is done.
But it sounds like you are trying to build a soloist and carry party baggage too.
Sometimes it feels like it.
The original idea was for her to be a caster first. Sitting in the backfield, but making anyone who thought she was 'just' a 'squishy caster' regret that.
But as the campaign evolved, and the dynamic shifted (new character replaced old ones, new players joining in, and us getting in a bit over our heads...) makes me think I have to pick up the slack.
Our Cavalier is about 30% attendance rate for the sessions.
Our Paladin is equipped with surplus gear from the rest of the party since the DM had us find him naked and unconscious
Our Brawler was found in a similar state (actually every new character has been found unconscious, naked, unconscious, and possibly the victim of sexual assault... I've already brought it up to the DM that it makes me uncomfortable)
The Brawler and Paladin are a level below the rest of the party, and the DM doesn't allow for Training to catch up. Treasure is pretty weak sauce. And He'll throw encounters at us that are CR 3+ the APL and be 'magnanimous' about not using their abilities against us so it's 'fair' (Being sure to tell us after each encounter how benevolent he's being. Which also takes away the thrill of victory when we do win.)
So I guess I am trying to find the best way to be able to stay alive and functional long enough to finish an encounter, and get the party to safety. Even if 'safety' is holing up in the nearest room until the next day.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon