Tropes like fighters are piss in non-social events come from the guides telling them to dump cha.To be fair, guides are usually a reflection of a class's innate abilities and expectations.
And I can expect a fighter to take Intimidating prowess. You know, cause feats. Not only a feat but a combat feat.
|
But.... Not so much. See these super color spray builds out all their feats and most of their spells per day into that one spell.The colour spray build only really needs 1 feat to be extremely dangerous and that is Persistent Spell. It may add Spell Penetration later on and perhaps Greater Spell Penetration. But, and here is the rub, all of those can be applied to your other spells as well as they are generally useful and you were probably going to take them anyway.
The only "dedicated colour spray build" is really the Heavens Oracle who will also be taking Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Illusion. Wizards and Sorcerers simply use it as an early levels save or die before graduating to stuff like create pit and stinking cloud.
So really if you are going to misrepresent other people you could try and do it in a less obvious way.
Also of some note, generally if I want to play a class where I have feats available to play around with ideas, I play an arcane caster.
No, seriously! Sorcerers and Wizards are like the only classes where I don't sit down to build a character and discover that every feat through level 11 is "spoken for" to accomodate my combat style, or try and open up options for my character. I can do so much with spells that I almost never feel like there's anything I have to take, and playing an arcane caster is often my chance to experiment, or take flavorful but not particularly powerful racial feats.
It's never going to happen. Too many people are way too invested in the idea that PF is some sort of platonic ideal of game design and that any form of criticism is a deeply felt personal attack.**EDIT**
On a side note, I wish it were possible to discuss classes by Tier on this forum without people having apoplectic fits. It makes it much easier to organize and discuss comparative merits of classes.
THE IRONY!!! IT BUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNNSSSSSSSS!!!
Carry on.
It's never going to happen. Too many people are way too invested in the idea that PF is some sort of platonic ideal of game design and that any form of criticism is a deeply felt personal attack.**EDIT**
On a side note, I wish it were possible to discuss classes by Tier on this forum without people having apoplectic fits. It makes it much easier to organize and discuss comparative merits of classes.THE IRONY!!! IT BUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNNSSSSSSSS!!!
Carry on.
It might be because the tier system just doesn't apply to PF.
The does exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick.
And the encounter where it isn't possible to attack the BBEG are boring for about half the classes in the game.
It's never going to happen. Too many people are way too invested in the idea that PF is some sort of platonic ideal of game design and that any form of criticism is a deeply felt personal attack.**EDIT**
On a side note, I wish it were possible to discuss classes by Tier on this forum without people having apoplectic fits. It makes it much easier to organize and discuss comparative merits of classes.THE IRONY!!! IT BUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNNSSSSSSSS!!!
Carry on.
It might be because the tier system just doesn't apply to PF.
The does exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick.
And the encounter where it isn't possible to attack the BBEG are boring for about half the classes in the game.
Erm, that was more addressed to the "any form of criticism is a deeply felt personal attack" point. I think 9 times out of 10 I've seen this type of comment used by people who regularly take disagreements as personal attacks.
PS - Don't reply to this, it'll probably get deleted shortly ... again.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It might be because the tier system just doesn't apply to PF.
The does exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick.
And the encounter where it isn't possible to attack the BBEG are boring for about half the classes in the game.
Tier system has nothing to do with power, it has to do with options. Oftentimes options = narrative power, so the class with the best suite of options is often considered the "most powerful", but this has nothing to do with DPR, and this misunderstanding of the Tier system is why this forum can't use the most obvious frame of reference to discuss class disparity without people having fits because they don't understand the subject matter.
The Tier system very much applies to Pathfinder.
For example:
Marthkus, your statement shows that you don't know what the Tier system represents. "There do exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick." This is pretty much the definition of Tier 4. The class is really good at doing one thing.
It might be because the tier system just doesn't apply to PF.
The does exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick.
And the encounter where it isn't possible to attack the BBEG are boring for about half the classes in the game.
Tier system has nothing to do with power, it has to do with options. Oftentimes options = narrative power, so the class with the best suite of options is often considered the "most powerful", but this has nothing to do with DPR, and this misunderstanding of the Tier system is why this forum can't use the most obvious frame of reference to discuss class disparity without people having fits because they don't understand the subject matter.
The Tier system very much applies to Pathfinder.
For example:
Marthkus, your statement shows that you don't know what the Tier system represents. "There do exist broken martials (*cough barbar), who trivialize any encounter where it is possible to hit the target with a stick." This is pretty much the definition of Tier 4. The class is really good at doing one thing.
No in 3.5 everyone had crap saves and spells hurt more. No matter how optimized your martial, it still could be prevented from doing its job.
PF barbar? Failed saves? Lol no, they get +16 from just superstitious. Their worse save caps out greater than 30.
How about no-save suck spells to keep the barbar away? Lol nope, spell sunder.
There is being good at one thing and then there is making that one thing unstoppable and trivializing any standard encounters and all but the most specialized boss fights.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No in 3.5 everyone had crap saves and spells hurt more. No matter how optimized your martial, it still could be prevented from doing its job.
PF barbar? Failed saves? Lol no, they get +16 from just superstitious. Their worse save caps out greater than 30.
How about no-save suck spells to keep the barbar away? Lol nope, spell sunder.
There is being good at one thing and then there is making that one thing unstoppable and trivializing any standard encounters and all but the most specialized boss fights.
This has nothing to with Tier, and again, this is why no one can say the word "Tier" without instantly derailing a thread on these forums. Tiers have to do with the number of options a character has available, the viability of those options, and how likely they are to be able to bring those options to bear on a given obstacle.
A Barbarian is (generally) Tier 4. He's really good at solving problems by hitting them with a stick, but if the problem can't be solved that way he's not super helpful. All of his abilities are "set" once chosen, so he brings the same skill set to bear against every encounter.
An Inquisitor or Bard is Tier 3. They have very strong skills backed by magical abilities that keep those skills relevant, can be very effective in combat, and generally can step into 2 or 3 different party roles with a fair degree of competence all from one character build.
A Summoner or Oracle would be Tier 2. They have a wide array options that allow them multiple tools for problem-solving, and can fairly easily step into 3 or more party roles all from the same build. For example, a well built Oracle could serve as the party face, primary healer, and tank or dpr with a strong degree of competence all in a single build. Their biggest limitation is that once their spells are chosen they're pretty much "locked in", giving them a set tool box. They have access to some "win button" spells like gate, wish, and miracle.
Wizards and Druids are Tier 1. They have the same strengths as the Tier 2 guys, but with the added benefit that their spell lists aren't "locked". They can swap out their spells if they have knowledge of the upcoming challenges to make sure that they're headed into the challenge with the most optimal toolkit available.
This has nothing to with Tier, and again, this is why no one can say the word "Tier" without instantly derailing a thread on these forums. Tiers have to do with the number of options a character has available, the viability of those options, and how likely they are to be able to bring those options to bear on a given obstacle.
A Barbarian is (generally) Tier 4. He's really good at solving problems by hitting them with a stick, but if the problem can't be solved that way he's not super helpful. All of his abilities are "set" once chosen, so he brings the same skill set to bear against every encounter.
An Inquisitor or Bard is Tier 3. They have very strong skills backed by magical abilities that keep those skills relevant, can be very effective in combat, and generally can step into 2 or 3 different party roles with a fair degree of competence all from one character build.
A Summoner or Oracle would be Tier 2. They have a wide array options that allow them multiple tools for problem-solving, and can fairly easily step into 3 or more party roles all from the same build. For example, a well built Oracle could serve as the party face, primary healer, and tank or dpr with a strong degree of competence all in a single build. Their biggest limitation is that once their spells are chosen they're pretty much "locked in", giving them a set tool box. They have access to some "win button" spells like gate, wish, and miracle.
Wizards and Druids are Tier 1. They have the same strengths as the Tier 2 guys, but with the added benefit that their spell lists aren't "locked". They can swap out their spells if they have knowledge of the upcoming challenges to make sure that they're headed into the challenge with the most optimal toolkit available.
This is why the tier system falls apart.
It's defined by options instead of power. PF has managed to shake up that paradigm.
Even the strongest wizards take things like spell perfection.
So barbarians fall apart in situations where the barrier to hitting something is not physical or magical. If violence isn't solving all of your problems...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How exactly has PF shaken up tiers being defined by options instead of power?
Because the Wizard who takes things like Spell Perfection has tons of options. And growing every supplement.
How exactly has PF shaken up tiers being defined by options instead of power?
Because the Wizard who takes things like Spell Perfection has tons of options. And growing every supplement.
Because we get less resource books that add options beyond "AM FULL ATTACK!" for martials than the edition the tier system was originally for? Because paragon surge gives spont casters an insane amount of versatility? Because a lot of the classes changed(most for better) but a lot of old problems are still around?
Yeah... its not different imo. Besides, doesn't change criteria.
|
No in 3.5 everyone had crap saves and spells hurt more. No matter how optimized your martial, it still could be prevented from doing its job.
PF barbar? Failed saves? Lol no, they get +16 from just superstitious. Their worse save caps out greater than 30.
How about no-save suck spells to keep the barbar away? Lol nope, spell sunder.
There is being good at one thing and then there is making that one thing unstoppable and trivializing any standard encounters and all but the most specialized boss fights.
To be fair, even a save stacked superstitious barbarian stands a reasonable chance of failing a spell against a maximized save or suck caster.
A fairly optimized human barb will likely have around a +38 Will save by level 20.
6 base
6 Wis
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
16 morale (superstition, human FCB, courageous weapon)
5 resistance (cloak)
2 iron will
A DC stacked Wizard (not to even mention arcanist nonsense...) will have a memorized persistent trap the soul (using magical lineage trait) DC of about 42 or 44
10 base
8 spell level
15 Int
2 enhancement (robe of runes use as free action at beginning of round)
4 unnamed (spell focus, greater spell focus, spell perfection)
2 unnamed (greater eldritch heritage - arcane school power: conjuration)
1 unnamed (lore seeker trait)
(optional)
2 unnamed (bonus of trap the soul for knowing the barbarian's name)
So, d20+38 vs. DC of 44 not so bad right? Sadly, that wizard is a void wizard. His standard action is to use reveal weakness to give you a -10 to all your saves for 1 round, and then he uses his staff of the master to quicken that persistent DC 44 trap the soul at you.
d20+38 twice and take the lower roll vs. effect DC of 54 is not so good odds anymore. A kitsune enchanter or an arcanist would be even higher DC.
Because we get less resource books that add options beyond "AM FULL ATTACK!" for martials than the edition the tier system was originally for? Because paragon surge gives spont casters an insane amount of versatility? Because a lot of the classes changed(most for better) but a lot of old problems are still around?How exactly has PF shaken up tiers being defined by options instead of power?
Because the Wizard who takes things like Spell Perfection has tons of options. And growing every supplement.
Ok... I agree with you. But that doesn't shake anything up. The classes with the options are still going to be placed highly on the Tier system. Sorcerer and Oracle getting *all* the options and moving up to tier 1 is still a tier system based on options, which is why they'd move up.
Ok... I agree with you. But that doesn't shake anything up. The classes with the options are still going to be placed highly on the Tier system. Sorcerer and Oracle getting *all* the options and moving up to tier 1 is still a tier system based on options, which is why they'd move up.Because we get less resource books that add options beyond "AM FULL ATTACK!" for martials than the edition the tier system was originally for? Because paragon surge gives spont casters an insane amount of versatility? Because a lot of the classes changed(most for better) but a lot of old problems are still around?How exactly has PF shaken up tiers being defined by options instead of power?
Because the Wizard who takes things like Spell Perfection has tons of options. And growing every supplement.
Yep! That was the joke.
|
|
First off, I find that some people just have favorite classes that they play no matter what. We have one player who just loves rangers (or something equally shooty) and another who loves fighters and paladins. That's just what they play. I don't think anyone at our table really considers which class is "better". I avoid martial types because I think it's a boring play style, not because they're "worse" than caster types.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Marthkus
PF hasn't really shaken up anything, it's just made room for some classes to move up or down a Tier. You can have Tier 3 Paladins now, which is pretty cool, and the Summoner joined the ranks of the Tier 2's while the Sorcerer has some options to climb the ladder to Tier 1, but the system still totally applies. If anything, the Paizo team's general stance on the FAQ and errata they issue has served to kind of cement the Tier system in place, putting a fairly solid glass ceiling over the martial classes to keep them locked into the Tier 4/5 area and filling the ranks of the Tier 1/2 with new additions like the Summoner and Arcanist.
So again, Tier =/= combat power.
Tier = options, and that's very applicable to Pathfinder.
|
At our table we see pure fighters rarely, but often see Paladins, barbarians, rangers and ninjas. Out of a group of 5 we usually see 2 casters in a campaign, druid or cleric most often. However with our Wrath campaign making headway there has been some love for the witch so I imagine I'll see that a bit. I can recall only one campaign that was martial light, I believe we had a ranger, paladin, druid, alchemist and summoner. That was unpleasant for the DM.
Martials are well liked at our table. They are easily designed to do a lot of different roles.
No in 3.5 everyone had crap saves and spells hurt more. No matter how optimized your martial, it still could be prevented from doing its job.
PF barbar? Failed saves? Lol no, they get +16 from just superstitious. Their worse save caps out greater than 30.
How about no-save suck spells to keep the barbar away? Lol nope, spell sunder.
There is being good at one thing and then there is making that one thing unstoppable and trivializing any standard encounters and all but the most specialized boss fights.
To be fair, even a save stacked superstitious barbarian stands a reasonable chance of failing a spell against a maximized save or suck caster.
A fairly optimized human barb will likely have around a +38 Will save by level 20.
6 base
6 Wis
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
16 morale (superstition, human FCB, courageous weapon)
5 resistance (cloak)
2 iron willA DC stacked Wizard (not to even mention arcanist nonsense...) will have a memorized persistent trap the soul (using magical lineage trait) DC of about 42 or 44
10 base
8 spell level
15 Int
2 enhancement (robe of runes use as free action at beginning of round)
4 unnamed (spell focus, greater spell focus, spell perfection)
2 unnamed (greater eldritch heritage - arcane school power: conjuration)
1 unnamed (lore seeker trait)
(optional)
2 unnamed (bonus of trap the soul for knowing the barbarian's name)So, d20+38 vs. DC of 44 not so bad right? Sadly, that wizard is a void wizard. His standard action is to use reveal weakness to give you a -10 to all your saves for 1 round, and then he uses his staff of the master to quicken that persistent DC 44 trap the soul at you.
d20+38 twice and take the lower roll vs. effect DC of 54 is not so good odds anymore. A kitsune enchanter or an arcanist would be even higher DC.
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?
The GM might as well say "rocks fall party dies", unless that wizard is in charging distance, because then the fight comes down to initiative. (pounce spell sunder mirror image, kill, kill, kill)
@ Marthkus
PF hasn't really shaken up anything, it's just made room for some classes to move up or down a Tier. You can have Tier 3 Paladins now, which is pretty cool, and the Summoner joined the ranks of the Tier 2's while the Sorcerer has some options to climb the ladder to Tier 1, but the system still totally applies. If anything, the Paizo team's general stance on the FAQ and errata they issue has served to kind of cement the Tier system in place, putting a fairly solid glass ceiling over the martial classes to keep them locked into the Tier 4/5 area and filling the ranks of the Tier 1/2 with new additions like the Summoner and Arcanist.So again, Tier =/= combat power.
Tier = options, and that's very applicable to Pathfinder.
Options aren't the only thing that matters.
This is why the tier system fails for PF.
Why is optimizing a Save or Die "breaking the game"? Unless of course the Wizard is overpowered, but I can't imagine that anyone has been suggesting that at all. (/sarcasm)
|
|
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?
The GM might as well say "rocks fall party dies", unless that wizard is in charging distance, because then the fight comes down to initiative. (pounce spell sunder mirror image, kill, kill, kill)
Sure. But in fairness, I doubt that most games see this level of optimization. In our home games, where one of us has taken weeks/months/years to run a self-written story, we typically use a "build what you like, but don't destroy game balance" gentlemen's agreement.
The example I made above was done simply to demonstrate the likely outcome when both are taken to extremes, and there is no gentlemen's agreement.
Because options have no meaning in PF only Power does?
That's why it doesn't matter if the Barbarian can actually see the invisible Wizard, or fly to reach him, He can hit for 1000 damage and the Wizard only deals 200! (/sarcasm)
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.
Wanna bet?
Options aren't the only thing that matters.
This is why the tier system fails for PF.
The tier system doesn't fail, its just something you don't think measures accurately. As I said earlier, its not just having options, but the quality of those options. That's why the tier ranks also value how well you do in your role and others.
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.
But... The GM has to plan the game around casters... does that mean casters are broken? Because spells do a lot of things, and you don't want people to trivialize, walk around, or fly right over the adventure right?
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.
Which is my problem with the barbar. You can't counter them without killing everyone else.
Even that wizard build is less broken because you can just have soulless enemies, and the game goes back to being roughly normal.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Options aren't the only thing that matters.
This is why the tier system fails for PF.
Umm, I would point out all the places your own arguments contradict that point, and how it's completely wrong since pretty much the only thing that actually matters in a roleplaying game is how many options you have and how effective they are, but experience has taught me that this would be an exercise in futility.
Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?
The GM might as well say "rocks fall party dies", unless that wizard is in charging distance, because then the fight comes down to initiative. (pounce spell sunder mirror image, kill, kill, kill)
Sure. But in fairness, I doubt that most games see this level of optimization. In our home games, where one of us has taken weeks/months/years to run a self-written story, we typically use a "build what you like, but don't destroy game balance" gentlemen's agreement.
The example I made above was done simply to demonstrate the likely outcome when both are taken to extremes, and there is no gentlemen's agreement.
True, but the difference here is how the barbar build is pretty much the standard build (abet 6-8 less on the saves for only like +32-30) and the wizard is the one you demonstrated supreme system mastery for.
Show the wizard set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.Wanna bet?Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.
Not just will saves either. But all of them greater than 30 and a ring of evasion.
trivial challenge for the barbar
Umm, I would point out all the places your own arguments contradict that point, and how it's completely wrong since pretty much the only thing that actually matters in a roleplaying game is how many options you have and how effective they are, but experience has taught me that this would be an exercise in futility.Options aren't the only thing that matters.
This is why the tier system fails for PF.
You didn't talk about effective. You only said options.
If we are talking about effectiveness too, the barbar is easily tier 2.
You're still tripping over the PF Barbarian Marthkus?
With their +20 strength surge its hard not too.!
|
|
Show the wizard's set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.
Sorcerer or Oracle would be the stronger on saves vs. wizard. You can get pretty ridiculous with them when the caster is prepared.
Base: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +12
We'll go fairly humble, and give him Dex 18, Con 18, and Wis 10. To that we add:
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
5 resistance (cloak)
15 bestow grace of the champion
That ends up being Fort +39, Ref +39, Will +41. You're looking at another +3 across the board vs. magic from Protection from Spells as well. And in fairness, any caster I made would have superior Initiative stat and Con...
Show the wizard's set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.Wanna bet?Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.
Not a Wizard, an Oracle.
+9 Wis Bonus: (29 Wis: 11 Base + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement + 4 Profane + 3 Age)
+12 Base Save:(Oracle 20)
+17 Bestow Grace of the Champion: (45 CHA: 18 Base +2 Race, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement, +6 Profane, +3 Age)
+5 Resistance (Cloak of Resistance)
+2 Luck (Luckstone + Fate's Favored)
+6 Morale (Heroism, Greater + Courageous Weapon)
+1 Competence (Pale Green Ioun Stone)
(I'm underselling the above by the way, it can go higher.)
+52 Succeeds on a 2... And of course has rerolls for being Dual Cursed.
I await your humble acceptance of defeat.
Edit: Lormyr covered the general saves things very well.
Show the wizard's set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.Sorcerer or Oracle would be the stronger on saves vs. wizard. You can get pretty ridiculous with them when the caster is prepared.
Base: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +12
We'll go fairly humble, and give him Dex 18, Con 18, and Wis 10. To that we add:
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
5 resistance (cloak)
15 bestow grace of the championThat ends up being Fort +39, Ref +39, Will +41. You're looking at another +3 across the board vs. magic from Protection from Spells as well. And in fairness, any caster I made would have superior Initiative stat and Con...
How is the sorcerer or wizard getting the "give me that martials class features please!" spell?
EDIT: Not sure about the CON claim. +6 all items are common at this level, and barbar gets a huge rage bonus.
|
|
Show the wizard's set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.Wanna bet?Yes but would the GM throw that kind of BBEG at you, and if they did does that not show you are breaking the game as a barbar when the GM has to resort to such tricks?And lets not ignore that there is no chance in the world the party wizard/sorcerer/oracle make that save.Not a Wizard, an Oracle.
+9 Wis Bonus: (29 Wis: 11 Base + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement + 4 Profane + 3 Age)
+12 Base Save:(Oracle 20)
+17 Bestow Grace of the Champion: (45 CHA: 18 Base +2 Race, +5 Level, +5 Inherent, +6 Enhancement, +6 Profane, +3 Age)
+5 Resistance (Cloak of Resistance)
+2 Luck (Luckstone + Fate's Favored)
+6 Morale (Heroism, Greater + Courageous Weapon)
+1 Competence (Pale Green Ioun Stone)(I'm underselling the above by the way, it can go higher.)
+52 Succeeds on a 2... And of course has rerolls for being Dual Cursed.
I await your humble acceptance of defeat.
Edit: Lormyr covered the general saves things very well.
And I did the undersell. You only left out two things that I can think of off the top of my head. ;)
Show the wizard's set of saves. If your plan is to use a spell that counter the especific example, you have to know that the DM spellcaster also know that and cast another spell equally destructive.Sorcerer or Oracle would be the stronger on saves vs. wizard. You can get pretty ridiculous with them when the caster is prepared.
Base: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +12
We'll go fairly humble, and give him Dex 18, Con 18, and Wis 10. To that we add:
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
5 resistance (cloak)
15 bestow grace of the championThat ends up being Fort +39, Ref +39, Will +41. You're looking at another +3 across the board vs. magic from Protection from Spells as well. And in fairness, any caster I made would have superior Initiative stat and Con...
How is the sorcerer or wizard getting the "give me that martials class features please!" spell?
EDIT: Not sure about the CON claim. +6 all items are common at this level, and barbar gets a huge rage bonus.
Well it's only a 4th level spell, so they could have a Wand of it. I have a better method as mentioned above, but I'm not inclined to share.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You didn't talk about effective. You only said options.
If we are talking about effectiveness too, the barbar is easily tier 2.
Yes, I did. I used phrases like "best suite of options" and "competently fill a role". I wouldn't call someone competent if all of their options are bad.
And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.
I don't know why I'm even trying here, it's a well known fact that once Marthkus has made up his own definition for something it's useless to try and convince him that it means something else to other people... Just search "Marthkus eclipse" for a great thread where Marthkus creates new definitions and plays "hide the goalpost" for 300+ posts.
|
|
How is the sorcerer or wizard getting the "give me that martials class features please!" spell?
Absolute worse case "holy crap, I need this now" situation? Limited wish to duplicate Bestow Grace of the Champion. In more lenient play with less restrictions, it's easy to get. But it is almost always something you need to prepare with. In 99.9% of reasonable play situations, you will have to cast it when anticipating trouble.
EDIT: Not sure about the CON claim. +6 all items are common at this level, and barbar gets a huge rage bonus.
A Con stacked barbarian is more difficult to match Fort saves with. Most casters will cheat with a +8 size bonus from form of the dragon III, so when coupled with Bestow Grace, it has the potential to close the gap.
And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.
There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Invisible Flying Wizard: Huh... I don't see anything here.
|
|
Pounce monster Barbarian causing problems? Drop him down a pit where his only way out is to jump 11 feet vertically and let him starve to death.
Rip apart his magic items with disjunction spells he can't do anything about and then pepper him with save-and-still-sucks until he's exhausted and debuffed to the point where he'll easily fail a nice save-or-die.