In my campaign world, there are three Hobgoblin nations. In all of these, use of arcane magic is punishable by death, and arcane magic items are confiscated, destroyed, and the owners imprisoned or heavily fined. (Divine magic is fine, and some divine magic items would be ok).
I'm looking for a standard, effective build for NPC 'anti-magic police specialists', using only CRB, APG and Ultimate Magic. (It could also be an interesting PC background). They should be able to spot and identify arcane casting, neutralise or shut it down where possible, and neutralise and imprison the caster for later trial. They'll probably typically work in pairs (probably one of level 1-2, the other of level 2-5). Hobgoblins get +2 Con, +2 Dex. Obviously they can't be any kind of arcane caster. (Alchemist, Bard, Magus, Sorcerer, Witch, Wizard are all no-go).
I'm thinking essential spells (obviously they can be only up to 3rd spell level) will include: Detect Magic, Silence, Dispel Magic. Others like Invisibility Purge and Command may be useful too. Important skills would include Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana). (Oh, and Profession (Law enforcement)).
In terms of equipment, they want to prevent casting and take the casters alive, so I'm thinking saps, nets, maybe even tanglefoot bags may be useful. In combat, grappling is obviously a good way to shut down spellcasters so anything that boosts that would be good.
It feels like Inquisitor might be the best class to use.
I'm not sure what are the best feats to go for ... obviously we're talking max of character level 5, many of them at level 1 ... so many with one feat, some with three (depending on the class, of course).
How would you build a character like this? Assume the CRB's 'heroic NPC' stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8; (only more talented police would have the opportunity to become 'anti-magic police').
Bump!
Also, what typical set of tactics should these employ if they want to successfully take a PC arcane caster they've witnessed into custody?
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Inquisitor is indeed the correct class for this. With the default NPC stats I'd go like this:
Str 15 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 8
And then raise Strength with the level 4 boost and Int with the level 8 one (or vice versa). Throw on some Full Plate, standard magic items (Wisdom enhancer especially) and make sure to grab Enhanced Senses and Perceive Cues in addition to the spells you list (and Divine Favor plus some other basic buffs).
The Spellbreaker or Witch Hunter Archetypes are also very appropriate, and highly recommended.
For tactics, ambush is always a good call on PCs and even in full Plate, Hobgoblins with it as a class skill are sneaky bastards. Invisibility is also on their spell list and would help immensely.
Inquisitors are better police but your requirements are heavy on casting. Could you go with inquisitors as the eyes on the street with clerics being called in to deal with a target once spotted? Perhaps successful inquisitors get retrained as clerics (promoted off the street).
Tactics assuming clerics. Cast silence on an object then place it in a sealed box to contain the effect. They get close, the junior partner flicks the box open then grapples the target. If the senior partner has Dispel Magic they ready a counterspell and observe, otherwise they should cast a buff spell while keeping an eye out for confederates, and join the grapple next round if none are observed.
You can grapple many arcane casters without using Improved grapple; nice but not necessary. The senior partner might have Silent Spell. I might choose stats of STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 15, CHA 8 including racial mods.
Thanks Deadmanwalking; I wasn't using UC but the 1st and 3rd level abilities of that archetype looks worth making an exception for in this case.
Full-plate at 1500 gp is too expensive to realistically put on policemen, even elite policemen, and a 4000 gp +2 wisdom headband is far too expensive.
With Wis 14 even at level 5 they'd only average (using the Profession skill as a guide) a pay of (10.5 (d20 average) + 2 (wis mod) + 3 (class skill) + 5 ranks) / 2 = 10.25 gp a week, 533 gp a year. The government/city is not going to spend thousands of gp on equipment; NPC workers use a different economy to adventurers. I'd say 750 gp is probably the absolute limit to what would realistically be spent on their equipment (or 1500 gp for a pair; maybe they carry some more expensive items between them).
i think inquisitor is a pretty good option. spellkiller would be an obvious choice for their inquisition. detect magic and ranks in spellcraft are pretty necessary.
in terms of tactics- the 1st level ones will have very few options beyond rushing the caster and relying on disruptive and good positioning. from 2nd on they can start with a ranged weapon and ready an action to interrupt the first spell then drop that and draw a melee weapon (or net, or whatever) as they move into position. if they fight in pairs you could even have one in each pair specialize in bow or crossbow just to use readied actions to continue interrupting all casting while the other works on subduing the target.
Honestly, if they might have to chase down a wizard wearing no armor they can't be in anything more than light armor. This also assists in stalking their targets.
They might have scrolls of dispel magic if the senior partner isn't high enough level to cast it natively.
Inquisitors are better police but your requirements are heavy on casting. Could you go with inquisitors as the eyes on the street with clerics being called in to deal with a target once spotted? Perhaps successful inquisitors get retrained as clerics (promoted off the street).
Nice idea ... I like the idea of this wing of the police being quite 'religious'.
Tactics assuming clerics. Cast silence on an object then place it in a sealed box to contain the effect. They get close, the junior partner flicks the box open then grapples the target.
I wondered about this, but RAW, Silence just has a radius and isn't stopped by barriers, though it would be simple enough to rule a particular material stopped it.
If the senior partner has Dispel Magic they ready a counterspell and observe, otherwise they should cast a buff spell while keeping an eye out for confederates, and join the grapple next round if none are observed.
You can grapple many arcane casters without using Improved grapple; nice but not necessary. The senior partner might have Silent Spell. I might choose stats of STR 14, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 15, CHA 8 including racial mods.
Thanks; all useful.
Honestly, if they might have to chase down a wizard wearing no armor they can't be in anything more than light armor. This also assists in stalking their targets.
Very true; it would be embarrassing if almost everytime they went after a caster he could foil them running away. Though giving them mounts would also help; depends on the environment they're operating in.
They might have scrolls of dispel magic if the senior partner isn't high enough level to cast it natively.
You're right; they should. (I think it's also possible RAW to do Dispel Magic as a potion, which could be good for countering any debuffs cast on them; but 750 gp ... or 375 gp at cost ... heavy on the police budget).
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Thanks Deadmanwalking; I wasn't using UC but the Strong-Willed feature of that archetype looks worth making an exception for for this case.
You're welcome. It's really appropriate.
Full-plate at 1500 gp is too expensive to realistically put on policemen, even elite policemen, and a 4000 gp +2 wisdom headband is far too expensive.
Maybe. Depends on what kind of 'police' we're talking about. If they're the equivalent of elite federal agents or something they might have PC WBL and both of those are very available at that amount. Even going by NPC WBL a 5th level Heroic Class NPC starts with 3450 gp and more than enough.
Going with less gear than that is violating the book's NPC rules, and should reduce their CR. It also doesn't make a lot of sense, for why see below.
With Wis 14 even at level 5 they'd only average (using the Profession skill as a guide) a pay of (10.5 (d20 average) + 2 (wis mod) + 3 (class skill) + 5 ranks) / 2 = 10.25 gp a week, 533 gp a year. The government/city is not going to spend thousands of gp on equipment; NPC workers use a different economy to adventurers. I'd say 750 gp is probably the absolute limit to what would realistically be spent on their equipment (or 1500 gp for a pair; maybe they carry some more expensive items between them).
They're also spellcasters. If in 'private practice' a 5th level Inquisitor can theoretically get paid 550 gp a day for spellcasting services not counting 0-level spells. Even at minimum prices for spells per level they get 320 gp. Now, they aren't gonna get that every day...but even at only one 1st level spell a day that's 10 gp a day minimum. Over over 3000 in a year. And they're gonna average more than that. From your description, their job involves spellcasting...and one would presume they are paid for that service in some fashion on top of the 'profession' pay.
In short, they should have plenty of money for plate if they want it. And Expeditious Retreat is an Inquisitor spell, if you need to chase down fleeing opponents.
my take on this kind of enforcer would be to go the opposite way:
make your "magehunters" plain old expert1/warriorX.
let them choose knowledge:arcane, spellcraft and use magic device as their expert skills. also focus on perception, stealth and sense motive.
gear them up with stuff like the silenced stone somebody else mentioned and othe charge- or one time use-items made for them by a high level cleric in their organization. give them weapons that can trip, entangle and knock out their opponents.
you see, you don't have to be an intense focused class to do a job. if these guys can scout out a magic user, or pick up on his casting, they can later take him out before he knows he's in a fight.
think less "Hammer of Law striking down on infidels, striking terror in their heart"
and more "elite commandoes that take you down in seconds as you walk out the door,
you didn't even know they were there.
and when you came to - you were bound gagged, chained and facing a grand justicar in the bastille/temple/prison.
turns out they have anti-magic zones built in their prisons ...
daaaaammmn"
personally, I think that sounds more fun. :)
From your description, their job involves spellcasting...and one would presume they are paid for that service in some fashion on top of the 'profession' pay.
Good point :-) Although how much private practice is available is debatable ... I think people would rather go to their clerics and donate to the temple (for example) for divine spellcasting, than going to a rather sinister, if off-duty, special policeman.
Also, plate armour will limit their Dex, hampering ranged weapon use, and Expeditious Retreat uses a spell slot - if Inquisitor, max level 5, they have no more than four first-level spell slots, and the junior partner would only have one or two.
Regarding the silence stone the logic goes like this.
Silence is an emanation, which means it cannot effect a creature which has total cover from the origin of the spell. It does continue to emanate for the duration of the spell so if the total cover is removed the creature will be effected.
A sealed box should provide total cover to anything outside the box from a spell emanating from inside, and opening the box should remove the total cover.
The only part which may not be RAW is what is needed to provide total cover.
In my campaign world, there are three Hobgoblin nations. In all of these, use of arcane magic is punishable by death, and arcane magic items are confiscated, destroyed, and the owners imprisoned or heavily fined. (Divine magic is fine, and some divine magic items would be ok). . . .
Tangential question. In the case of arms and armor that just have pluses, or are enchanted with spells that are on both divine and arcane lists, how would one tell which are the product of arcane magic and which are the product of divine?
Detect Magic will show it up (or at least, it will in this campaign world)In my campaign world, there are three Hobgoblin nations. In all of these, use of arcane magic is punishable by death, and arcane magic items are confiscated, destroyed, and the owners imprisoned or heavily fined. (Divine magic is fine, and some divine magic items would be ok). . . .Tangential question. In the case of arms and armor that just have pluses, or are enchanted with spells that are on both divine and arcane lists, how would one tell which are the product of arcane magic and which are the product of divine?
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
; obviously any magic items used need to have a note made if they're arcane or divine origin.
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Good point :-) Although how much private practice is available is debatable ... I think people would rather go to their clerics and donate to the temple (for example) for divine spellcasting, than going to a rather sinister, if off-duty, special policeman.
True...but I'm not really arguing for them being paid full value, just something in the same ballpark. And I was more thinking if they left the police force. Also, as Inquisitors, they presumably are priests of some sort...
I think it would work best if your 'pair' was an inquisitor and a monk.
Monk for saves, closing speed, stun, and grapple.
Inquisitor to detect, identify, silence, and dispel.
If they can't handle it (or get wiped out), the big guns are called in to handle it. A counter spelling cleric/oracle with a large team of inquisitors and monks.
Feats to counter spell and dispel would be essential for the inquisitors.
Saving throw boost feats would also be good choices.
(Urban rangers are also a good possibility for a partner.)
I would suggest the pair for investigating/observing. But they should call in backup for an actual take down if the target is expected to be at all tough. Cops don't survive long trying to be lone heroes. They don't fight fair. They call in back-up to kick the crap out of the bad guys festival.
One of the pair is 4th-5th level. The other is 2nd-3rd level. Back up might be another 2-6 guys that are 1st level (or 2nd level if NPC classes).
Might also consider small teams rather than just a pair. So it could be a pair of senior operators (level 4) or a team with a very senior operator (level 5) and 2 - 4 junior members (level 2-3) not long out of the training academy.
... in terms of tactics- the 1st level ones will have very few options beyond rushing the caster and relying on disruptive and good positioning. from 2nd on they can start with a ranged weapon and ready an action to interrupt the first spell then drop that and draw a melee weapon (or net, or whatever) as they move into position. ...
Also ready an action to throw touch attack vials of acid, fire, ice, or electricity. As well as thunderstones and tanglefoot bags.
Having an anti-witch barbarian (superstitious, spell sunder, etc.) is also not a bad idea because they can work well against wizards and have enough raw strength to handle normal criminals as well.
My preferred tactic for a police force taking on wizards is the prepared action bowman. It can be any marital class with a bow but fighter or ranger would probably be best. Fighter gives the most overall damage whereas the Ranger has better stealth and favored terrain/enemy bonuses.
Once they spot the target, one shoots at them with non-lethal arrows. Then the rest prepare their actions. If the wizard tries to sue one of their spells, he's suddenly a pincushion.
This helps prevent the obvious problem with a melee policeman trying to take down a wizard: control spells. If the monk or even the barbarian I suggested tries to run at a wizard, they will probably find themselves in a web, slipping on grease, grapples by black tentacles, or thrown into a pit. And that's just the lower-level stuff.
Then again, a wizard might have stoneskin or protection from arrows. So maybe a hybrid system would work best. The inquisitor stealthily sniffs them out and they magically calls in the fuzz. If the wizard tries to cast protection from arrows, he'll really wish he hadn't.
I would have them work in Inquisitor/Ranger pairs. They both have 6+ skill points per level, they both have spellcraft as a class skill to identify the casters. They are both good trackers and where the Inquisitor is better at divination, the Ranger is better at killing people, with favored enemy in the race that they are policing. They both favor 2 saves and not much will work against both of them. It also makes thematic sense to have a religion sending out its holy warriors and holy spies together to hunt heretics while leaving the regular priests out of it.
I think it would work best if your 'pair' was an inquisitor and a monk.
Monk for saves, closing speed, stun, and grapple.
Inquisitor to detect, identify, silence, and dispel.
I like it; that works and I'd already decided that Monk training is particularly popular among Hobgoblins.
Feats to counter spell and dispel would be essential for the inquisitors.
Saving throw boost feats would also be good choices.
(Urban rangers are also a good possibility for a partner.)
Good thoughts.
I would suggest the pair for investigating/observing. But they should call in backup for an actual take down if the target is expected to be at all tough. Cops don't survive long trying to be lone heroes. They don't fight fair. They call in back-up to kick the crap out of the bad guys festival.
One of the pair is 4th-5th level. The other is 2nd-3rd level. Back up might be another 2-6 guys that are 1st level (or 2nd level if NPC classes).
Yep; they're not meant to be stupid, and would call in extra numbers from the regular police if necessary.
Might also consider small teams rather than just a pair. So it could be a pair of senior operators (level 4) or a team with a very senior operator (level 5) and 2 - 4 junior members (level 2-3) not long out of the training academy.
2 cops 'on the beat' seems to be the standard meme; obviously they'd boost the numbers significantly if dealing with a particular threat. If they caught someone arcane spellcasting in a hobgoblin city or nation as part of a party of 4-5 adventurers, common sense would dictate they'd want about a dozen police to take them down. Not *totally* unfair on the party; they'd get perception checks to notice the police coming, and the police would be aiming to use nonlethal force unless forced to do otherwise. (And then the party get the fun of trying to bust out of prison or bust their caster out of prison while awaiting trial).
Having an anti-witch barbarian (superstitious, spell sunder, etc.) is also not a bad idea because they can work well against wizards and have enough raw strength to handle normal criminals as well.
But RAW barbarians are restricted to non-lawful classes, which institutionally is not going to work with policemen (granted you'll get the odd non-lawful policeman, but we're talking about the standard, not the exceptions here).
My preferred tactic for a police force taking on wizards is the prepared action bowman. It can be any marital class with a bow but fighter or ranger would probably be best. Fighter gives the most overall damage whereas the Ranger has better stealth and favored terrain/enemy bonuses.
Once they spot the target, one shoots at them with non-lethal arrows. Then the rest prepare their actions. If the wizard tries to use one of their spells, he's suddenly a pincushion.
Sounds good =)
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Might also consider small teams rather than just a pair. So it could be a pair of senior operators (level 4) or a team with a very senior operator (level 5) and 2 - 4 junior members (level 2-3) not long out of the training academy.2 cops 'on the beat' seems to be the standard meme; ...
I always find myself trying to figure out the continuity of any system I put in place. Some how it has to 'work' to fulfill it's intended function.
It seems to me like you would have to have more people in the lower level range to keep an ongoing stable in the upper level range. People quit, get sick, get dead, get fired, etc... If you have the same number of low level guys as high level guys, pretty soon you don't have any high level guys.
Think about any large company with people at various levels. A few of each level get promoted to the smaller group at the next level. Then a few of those get promoted to the even smaller group at the even higher level.
Think about an actual RL police force. You have large numbers of standard officers (low level 2-3). You have a relatively smaller number of detectives (higher level 4-5). And bigger city might have an even smaller number on the SWAT team (your serious situation level 6-9 reaction squad).
I suppose you could have it work if there are 'safer' areas patrolled by many teams of just low level guys.
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Might also consider small teams rather than just a pair. So it could be a pair of senior operators (level 4) or a team with a very senior operator (level 5) and 2 - 4 junior members (level 2-3) not long out of the training academy.2 cops 'on the beat' seems to be the standard meme; ...Think about an actual RL police force. You have large numbers of standard officers (low level 2-3). You have a relatively smaller number of detectives (higher level 4-5). And bigger city might have an even smaller number on the SWAT team (your serious situation level 6-9 reaction squad).
I suppose you could have it work if there are 'safer' areas patrolled by many teams of just low level guys.
Yes; I'm considering here just pairs of cops who are specialist anti-magic policemen. They would originally have come from rank-and-file regular cops, of which there would be many more, but our anti-magic specialists would still be out and about, just the two of them, maybe keeping an eye on non-hobgoblin visitors to the city. A metropolis might have several such pairs, but also junior equivalents (heading for the anti-magic specialism but still working up to it), members of other specialisms, and many 'regular' police.
It's a fairly-heavily policed society, so let's say about 1 policemen for 200 population (the same as modern NYC). In a metropolis of 35,000 that's about 175 policemen, but at most only 8-10 would be anti-magic specialists; they're mostly keeping an eye on foreign visitors unless dealing with a reported threat. We'd expect across the whole force a pyramid of levels; say divide that 175 as 16 trainees, 70 constables (1st level - a mix of experts, warriors, monks and inquisitors; maybe an occasional ranger), 48 sergeants (2nd - 3rd level), 24 inspectors (4th - 5th level), 12 captains (5th level), 4 commanders (6th level) and 1 commissioner (7th-8th level); a commander is in charge those based in a particular police station, commissioner in charge of the police for the metropolis. Some of those constables would get promoted up into some kind of specialist; anti-magic or others, as they got experience to level up.
Hell, one or two of those constables may even grow up to be PCs :-)
Having an anti-witch barbarian (superstitious, spell sunder, etc.) is also not a bad idea because they can work well against wizards and have enough raw strength to handle normal criminals as well.But RAW barbarians are restricted to non-lawful classes, which institutionally is not going to work with policemen (granted you'll get the odd non-lawful policeman, but we're talking about the standard, not the exceptions here).
You're right, I didn't even think of that.
Maybe you could have a few as special contractors. Hobgoblins are usually LE so having a couple orc/half-orc barbarians to smash dangerous peoples' faces in doesn't sound to off to me. This would be in special cases when the police have reason to believe that the mages are dangerous, in a group, and prepared. So the barbarians would be somewhere between special forces and a mob enforcer. They would use a mix of sudden ambush tactics and intimidation to quell opponents as quickly as possible. Not to mention d12 hit die helps against magical traps.
... In a metropolis of 35,000 that's about 175 policemen, but at most only 8-10 would be anti-magic specialists; they're mostly keeping an eye on foreign visitors unless dealing with a reported threat. We'd expect across the whole force a pyramid of levels; say divide that 175 as 16 trainees, 70 constables (1st level - a mix of experts, warriors, monks and inquisitors; maybe an occasional ranger), 48 sergeants (2nd - 3rd level), 24 inspectors (4th - 5th level), 12 captains (5th level), 4 commanders (6th level) and 1 commissioner (7th-8th level); a commander is in charge those based in a particular police...
I misunderstood. I thought the entire police force consisted of these pairs of cops who are also good at taking down casters.
An anti-witch barbarian "Beserker" could be employed, as suggested. Make a big scene of having a large box be dragged into town with chains wrapped around it. They open it up to reveal a hulking barbarian with scent, who tracks down arcane casters!
But they only use it in dire circumstances; the rest of the time, he is locked up and treated cruelly. He's actually a nice guy at heart, if the PC's befriend him before he lops their heads off.
If it's beyond what the police can deal with, then the army of this nation have troops of bugbears they keep in almost slavelike conditions to use as shock troops ... could be a good fit for beserker(s) employed if they have powerful spellcasters they want to take out.
I've got a real question for you. If Arcane Magic is punishable by death and hated by all and sundry, why would they go to the extreme EXTRA risk of taking their quarry alive?.
Because they're police, as a society law is important ... so most police will bring you in alive, UNLESS you make it hard for them to do so, in which case, meh ...
I guess if they have longbows and cast (divine) Silence on the arrows, they can drop an arrow next to the caster from a range that's safe from the caster having noticed they're there. Then most casters without Silent Spell have the wind knocked out of their sails.
Of course, any caster deliberately going up against the anti-magic police will likely have taken Silent Spell ... at which point, bad day to be a policeman.
'Urban Barbarian' from APG allows barbarians of any alignment by switching up the rage benefits... they also get better movement in crowds and gain bonuses to crowd control.
Urban Barbarians have the same alignment restrictions as any other barbarian: non-lawful.
I like to give hobgoblin PCs racial familiarities with "capture" weapons, and one of my favorites is the mancatcher. Grapple with reach? Yes please. Plus, you can take advantage of that reach to use feats like Combat Reflexes and Stand Still.
Even if you just drop the mancatcher right after, the target still has to use a standard action to get free.
The three main drawbacks are, first, that it's not exactly powerful damage-wise (though that stops hurting as much after a few levels), second, that each mancatcher you own only works on one size category, and third, that it's an Exotic Weapon. On the plus side, it's cheap enough that it works alright as a secondary weapon.
I've got a real question for you. If Arcane Magic is punishable by death and hated by all and sundry, why would they go to the extreme EXTRA risk of taking their quarry alive?.Because they're police, as a society law is important ... so most police will bring you in alive, UNLESS you make it hard for them to do so, in which case, meh ...
I guess if they have longbows and cast (divine) Silence on the arrows, they can drop an arrow next to the caster from a range that's safe from the caster having noticed they're there. Then most casters without Silent Spell have the wind knocked out of their sails.
Of course, any caster deliberately going up against the anti-magic police will likely have taken Silent Spell ... at which point, bad day to be a policeman.
I think you underestimate the sheer ruthlessness of just about any pre-modern society's police.
Rule of Law is a relatively modern concept. For most of history the model is rule of the edicts laid down by whoever is in charge. it's an important distinction.
I'm designing the society to be very legal, even somewhat police state. Most of the police will do everything by the book. And then send you for an unpleasant, public execution. Needlessly kill the spellcaster and you deprive the (paying) public the privilege of watching his sorry ass get ripped to pieces by wild animals, or beaten to death by a muscular bugbear while wearing anti-casting manacles.
The hobgoblin society is less mediaeval and more ancient Rome mixed with late pre-industrial Europe.
Better question: Who cares? Why do we need to analyze the socio-economic implications? This is Pathfinder, a game focused on fantasy and dragons and goblins and such. Nobody ever asks goblins what they think of politics. When we do, we get Doodlebug Anklebiters.