Hey, I like looting! part of what makes rogues fun is being able to make off with all that sweet, sweet loot. There's a lot of satisfaction in plundering my enemy's strongholds! Also, I had a ranger once who harvested slain monsters, because at heart, he was a hunter. Mind you, mostly he took hides because organs decay too quickly and there's a set market price on hides. That being said, there's a few ways to deal with extreme cases of loot mongering:
-Enforce encumbrance penalties as well as use some common sense. There's a surprisingly large amounts of things that won't fit into a bag of holding or handy haversack. In most of my games, out party needed to buy a wagon if we wanted to make off with a lot of big stuff. (seems this is handled for the most part)
-Carrying buckets of loot makes you a juicy target for thieves. Make sure they aren't bandits though: highwaymen are just more bundles of loot. Just have some sneaks pinch goods every now and then (Do give the players a chance to stop them though. No need to be unsporting about it). Don't have them swipe anything that will cripple a character. rather, have them take the small, inconsequential stuff (Those everburning torches make a good example) that you don't want to have to deal with, but would still make a smart thief a decent amount of money. Don't do this all the time though and don't be a jerk about it.
-Stores don't have infinite cash. Even if you party stripped a dungeon clean of all it's valuables, it doesn't mean they will have the place to sell all of it. Eventually loot piles up, and unless your party has a caravan of wagons, they will need to cut down on how much they take.
-Cities and towns have limited space! Not every place will have the room to store a fleet of wagons. most places will have parking for one or so though. If safe parking is an issue, than it might deter from the group buying a massive fleet to bypass storage matters.
-Economics is still a thing. Some cities and towns may not allow just anyone to buy and sell. Having some cities require one to have a permit in order to conduct business makes it harder to unload all of the loot which causes the group to consider storage matters. This can also work realistically, because the city may be worried about adventurers taking coin out of the city's circulation without putting any more in.
-Not everything has to be valuable. Sure, they swiped a torch (presuming a normal one here), doesn't mean a shopkeeper will buy it. Who wants a half burned torch in their shop?
-Lastly, as Mikaze mentioned, you can make it lucrative to preserve locations. This method doesn't have to be restricted to historical sites, either! Someone might offer to pay the group to preserve a dungeon so they can use the space for their own ends (I even had an adventure based on this, in which a scholar hired us to clear a ruined library of orcs and we were paid based on how intact the books and the like were). The city might find the towers set up by a group of bandits are helpful for placing guards in. Get creative with it! If it's loot they want, offering loot in exchange for not picking a place clean might be an attractive offer!
as an aside, while cursed items can be pretty funny, I wouldn't use it as a major deterrent. all that happened when my group got saddled with one was become more paranoid and made doubly sure to have the wizard ID everything to make sure it's not bad, at which point, it becomes a silly waste of time and resources. actually dealing with the curses was an interesting challenge and a fun quest, but those to me seem like better plot hooks than punishments for bad behavior.
The only way I took the loot everything mentality out of my game is that I have most of my treasure lined up toward the end of the session. I've watched Wealth-by-level like a hawk, so my players know that there is usually something to be gotten if they play their cards right. Also, since they get it at the end, they'll spend all of the time leveling up and donning new things all in one stroke.
If there's something important to the story that they're looking for, I'll happily leave it on a dead person that they just killed however.
But did he want to haggle with merchants or did you make him? You might be part of the issue there.
Player 5 was not invited back to the game by mutual agreement of my other players and me.
Honestly I didn't mind the craziness of it (the PC was a crazy survivalist guy) or the potential extra wealth they could get from it. It was the fact that I'd had a few more encounters planned for that game session; instead I spent hours listening to looting, skinning, cantrip-casting, litter building and finally haggling with in-town merchants over the value of it and using...
Starbuck, you and Graystone are perfectly correct - I thought at the time this was what the players wanted so I ran with it. It wasn't what I wanted though; I merely played along. Would it have been more fun for me had I just hand waved it? Sure, but then the players wouldn't have had the experience they seemed to be enjoying.
... except they DIDN'T enjoy it. At least, not players 1-4.
1-4 came to me after the game and said they were just going along with it. I had a private conversation with 5, we chatted and as I said, he didn't come back for the next game.
I get what you're all saying: it takes 2 to end a relationship, even one centered on gaming. I'm not saying I'm blameless and I apologized to that player at the time. But I AM saying that sometimes extreme looting accompanies extreme behavior that other players and GMs just go along with it because we're weak creatures. Please don't judge.
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I think there's two separate things here that bug the OP;
1) All this ultra-looting takes a looooot of time. (Pun intended.)
2) It's not really the "heroic" game you were looking forwards to.
I think the solution is in a bit of abstraction. We want to spend as little OOC time and attention on the peripheral looting.
First off, you need to just blatantly say that you REFUSE, as GM, to be drawn into a detailed accounting of the trivial bits of the dungeon. Just don't do it. If the player insists, kick him out of the gaming group, because you just told you you're absolutely not going to do it, and he's apparently unable to understand that.
Then, tell the players that if they want to also carry off the salvageable junk, that's okay, but you'll just give that as a % of bonus money relative to the real loot. After all, it usually takes an expensive dungeon to hold expensive loot.
This % is determined by two things: a skill check, and the amount of weight the players are willing to transport. Weight limit is on THIS expedition; by the time they come back for seconds, the dungeon will be stripped bare. (If they try to keep out the looters, they spend money on traps that will also be stolen by the low-level NPC adventurers that will inevitably descend on the dungeon like dungflies.) It's up to the players if they wish to travel back heavily encumbered.
Skills should usually be Appraise or Profession: Porter, although everyone gets 1 chance to Aid with another appropriate skill. Important: the formula has diminishing returns. After all, the first 50lbs you take is worth more than the second 50lbs you decide to take. So getting 5% extra is easy, 15% is really really hard.
There is no bargaining with NPCs to sell the abstract loot. In the first significant settlement the PCs can just sell all of it, and thereby gain that % extra loot.
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The merits of this approach are these:
- Players get to make a meaningful decision: do we encumber ourselves to loot more?
- PC skill counts; a better Appraise, P-Porter skill increases loot. Likewise, any player that has a skill useable to Aid (as befitting the type of dungeon) can contribute a bit.
- It's fast. Not a lot of bookkeeping.
- It doesn't focus a huge amount of spotlight on the banal side of looting.
- Players do get to do banal looting, which they want to.
- By having a formula with diminishing returns, you make sure the extra % of loot doesn't get out of hand, and the players know that they're not going to earn so much money that they absolutely MUST travel back under maximum encumbrance.
All that's needed is a decent formula with diminishing returns, Loot(skill, weight) = ?
Incidentally, the XP gained from loot was able to outstrip the XP gained from success in battle, back in 1e. As a result, the game rewarded clever ways to get the treasure without having to fight and risk your life.I can't remember for sure, but I thought only the rogues got experience for treasure gained. {shrug} Memory is the first to ... What?
Thieves got double XP for loot.
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As for 'the GM counts as part of "everyone"', that's true. ONE person isn't having fun. So all the other people should stop having fun so the one person can? That sounds a bit off doesn't it?It would if it involved any kind of inconvenience to them at all, and didn't involve inconvenience for the GM. In this case, though, the majority somehow don't have my sympathy.
GM: For crying out loud! Listen, I don't know how many copper pieces the milking stool and the pried-up tiles and the pins from the pincushion are worth! We only have five hours each week to game and I have more interesting stuff you guys could be doing!
Player 1: Uh-huh. Listen, the tiles are OK, because there are 745 of them and 5 of us, so we get 149 tiles apiece - unless some colors are worth more than the rest - but there are 48 pins, so there will be three pins left over, so we have to know their copper piece value!
Someone has obviously never been to Hommlet where all of that stuff was listed in the module.
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I prefer deadly traps. Go ahead and make the torch brackets out of gold but then put high pressure acid reservoirs behind them so when they are pulled from the wall the entire room is sprayed with deadly acid. It also destroys items by the way which players hate.
A few such traps and players quickly stop stripping everything they come across.
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The absolute worst thing about the loot everything mentality in my opinion, is the amount of time it eats up. When 2/3rds of the time in one session gets devoted to haggling/shopping and micro-managing a couple characters inventories, I'm almost ready to flip the table.
This happened to me recently, and I would have quit the game if it wasn't the only real social contact I have with one player I was good friends with in Junior high.
Oh great, we just had an entire session with no combat and only limited actual RP because some people are obsessed with getting every copper they can from every object we come across. I guess if we are lucky, in 2 weeks time when we are scheduled to play again, if no one bails, we might get to do some combat.
The absolute worst thing about the loot everything mentality in my opinion, is the amount of time it eats up. When 2/3rds of the time in one session gets devoted to haggling/shopping and micro-managing a couple characters inventories, I'm almost ready to flip the table.
This happened to me recently, and I would have quit the game if it wasn't the only real social contact I have with one player I was good friends with in Junior high.
Oh great, we just had an entire session with no combat and only limited actual RP because some people are obsessed with getting every copper they can from every object we come across. I guess if we are lucky, in 2 weeks time when we are scheduled to play again, if no one bails, we might get to do some combat.
So much this.
Precisely why I hand out stuff right at the end of a session. It just eats up way too much time.
As a player, I almost stop keeping track of copper after level 4 or so. It's almost literally not worth the weight.
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1-4 came to me after the game and said they were just going along with it. I had a private conversation with 5, we chatted and as I said, he didn't come back for the next game.
This post had a totally different tone than the first. The first sounded like out of the blue you kicked him. This post had the missing piece where you talked and let him know what's up. Given that info, I have no issue with what you did.
The absolute worst thing about the loot everything mentality in my opinion, is the amount of time it eats up. When 2/3rds of the time in one session gets devoted to haggling/shopping and micro-managing a couple characters inventories, I'm almost ready to flip the table.
Different people enjoy different things from the game. Someone might be ready to 'flip the table' when you take 2/3rds of the game up with RPing picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues while the group sleeps. If one person is 'hogging' the time, the best thing to do is talk it out. Looting is far from the only aspect of the game that can eat up time and cause boredom.
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Different people enjoy different things from the game. Someone might be ready to 'flip the table' when you take 2/3rds of the game up with RPing picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues while the group sleeps. If one person is 'hogging' the time, the best thing to do is talk it out. Looting is far from the only aspect of the game that can eat up time and cause boredom.
Yeah but at least when someone is picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues I can decide to join in or at least be entertained by the dialogue that is happening. Haggling over the price of 12 longbows, 6 composite shortbows, 10 thunderstones, etc... not so much.
What it comes down to is that if the GM allows this sort of behavior it ends up rewarding players who eat up game time with collecting, and selling junk. Something about that just doesn't seem right.
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Game rules say you get 50% of the purchase price. If a player wants to sell junk, that should take up no more table time that the time spent adding up the total GP. Time spent haggling is the fault of the GM.
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I am inclined to agree, except that some players will insist that they should get more because of their high appraise/diplomacy/bluff. Some players put pressure on the GM to allow them to get a bit more. Is the GM wrong if he bends to that pressure? Personally I would prefer if the GM stayed firm, but it's tough sometimes.
This gets even more complicated when some players are trying to sell an entire cartload of rusty shortswords, dogslicers, crude orc bows, and sets of hide armor. Discussions begin about how much a rusty shortsword is worth. Just saying 50% value could streamline things but as both a player and a GM I would prefer if these things were just assumed to have no value. Otherwise the GM has to figure in the value of all the junk equipment and subtract it from the value of actual treasure he is going to hand out to the party.
Different people enjoy different things from the game. Someone might be ready to 'flip the table' when you take 2/3rds of the game up with RPing picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues while the group sleeps. If one person is 'hogging' the time, the best thing to do is talk it out. Looting is far from the only aspect of the game that can eat up time and cause boredom.Yeah but at least when someone is picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues I can decide to join in or at least be entertained by the dialogue that is happening. Haggling over the price of 12 longbows, 6 composite shortbows, 10 thunderstones, etc... not so much.
How so? Was something stopping you from looting or selling? Is some mysterious force inhibiting your haggling? I'm pretty sure it boils down to what I said. "Different people enjoy different things from the game."
What it comes down to is that if the GM allows this sort of behavior it ends up rewarding players who eat up game time with collecting, and selling junk. Something about that just doesn't seem right.
A GM shouldn't allow things people enjoy? You play a different type of game than I. I'd be upset is the GM DIDN'T reward us for doing things we enjoy. Would you be as upset if someone took JUST as much time collecting and learning spells? Spending JUST as much time haggling over the prices? Building their keep? Haggling over feed cost for a animal companion? Trading stories with all the old people at the park?
I'm thinking it more about YOU not finding it interesting than it being wrong to do it or to allow it. If they aren't hogging the time there shouldn't be an issue. If they are, no matter whatn the activity is, then it is a problem.
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Part of the problem is that the prices for many items in the CRB, including most weapons, make no sense whatsoever. 75 gp for a longbow in a world in which a skilled worker earns 3 sp a day is absurd. (For comparison, note that the law in Medieval England required every yeoman to own and practice with a longbow.)
Well it is a good thing the average skilled worker in pathfinder does not earn 3 sp a day.
I found a web site here: http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm that has actual medieval prices for a wide variety of items, gleaned from historical documents. Or you can take the easy way and just convert the prices from GURPS Low Tech (1sp = $4 or $5 GURPS would be a good start). Your player characters will likely be less prone to cart around a bunch of old weapons and other gear if the amount they can sell them for is reduced to a more believable level.
We have people talking about the value of rat hide and rations as well as pulling nails to sale when they get back. The individual prices no matter how low aren't what is causing the behavior.
Art objects are another matter. Why are you putting them in there at all if they're not part of the reward? In any case, unless the dungeon is still in use or has only very recently been abandoned, valuable but mundane objects will have survived only in very exceptional circumstances. Normally time, weather, and previous explorers will have removed most items of value.
Some areas have art that's simply there because it should be there. For example in an abandoned temple or a long forgotten wizard's tower or manor. Yes a good portion of it might be destroyed by various things but again something like a marble statue might last some time and could have been there for the GM to be able to add atmosphere to the area. Just because something is there doesn't mean it's a reward -- otherwise why have houses?
Magic is yet another issue, but in my world magic items appear as treasure because I expect the PCs to use them. Permanent magic items usually can't be sold without taking weeks or months to find a buyer; they are far too expensive for even kings to casually buy, and they don't generally need to be replaced. This also means, of course, that permanent magic items are made to order and never, ever found sitting in shops waiting for some adventurer to buy.
Except again generally in pathfinder using the default rules your typical NPC will be able to afford some magic. It's going to be a major purchase. But that doesn't mean it isn't readily possible. As to the 'why' -- for the same reason some people buy cars or use the internet or buy role playing books... people are complicated and want stuff.
Ultimately, though, it might be best to talk to your players. It's possible that they have their own ideas about what kind of a game would be the most fun, and talking with them can help you better come to a consensus that everyone will enjoy.
Best advice ever!
If you are still worried about the everburning torches, remember that continual flame can be cast on objects other than torches. This includes patches of cave wall or ceiling.
Explain to the players that for the enchantment to remain intact so does the piece of stone the enchantment is laid on. They could carve it out of the wall but this runs a risk of cracking the piece that is lit, which would destroy it, and then they would have to find a buyer. Who would want to buy an everburning 40-lb. rock?
On a more serious note, if the adventurers are going on a mission on behalf of someone, they could be sent to "secure" the dungeon for use by the good guys. In that case wrecking the place will lead to a much smaller cash reward.
Peet
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they would have to find a buyer. Who would want to buy an everburning 40-lb. rock?
Challenge accepted!
they would have to find a buyer. Who would want to buy an everburning 40-lb. rock?Challenge accepted!
No one would EVER want to light up an area instead of having an easily stolen mobile light source... Well except someone that wants to build a lair... Sell it back to the guy that build the first one! ;)
dammit I knew we where missing something in our Ways of the Wicked campaign. Rendering our enemies down for candles and soap ahoy! Well when that campaign restarts anyway.
That'd be a waste. You animate dead on them so you can pack them down with loot first before soap making. :)
Pretty sure we're discussing the levels before Animate Dead right now graystone. (But yes, slave labor is a beautiful thing.)
Some people just like looting no matter the level. Also, you only have to be 5th level for the spell. If you can scrounge up 750gp worth of junk, what 5th level party would turn down a fully charged CLW wand?
This is one of the reasons I'm considering using some abstract wealth system. With an abstract wealth system, there is less economical importance of every single little thing, so it's easier to have stuff like huge dragon hoards or adamantine doors without it breaking the economy.
they would have to find a buyer. Who would want to buy an everburning 40-lb. rock?Challenge accepted!
I believe this is called a tracer balista shot.
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This is one of the things that made me wince when I realized PF had done away with the XP cost for making magical items. - Wait, let me finish. I didn't like the fact that magic item crafters wound up lagging behind their buddies level-wise, but it meant there was an element other than loot that was necessary to create items. Now $=power=$=power - and one unintended result of that rules change is that now the PCs will render down their foes in a big cauldron and try to sell off the bones and tallow*.
* See? Your PCs haven't gotten as bad as they can. Yet.
dammit I knew we where missing something in our Ways of the Wicked campaign. Rendering our enemies down for candles and soap ahoy! Well when that campaign restarts anyway.
On a more serious note: Loot hoarding to this extent is, to me as valid as 'face games', would you discourage people from playing charismatic politically adept characters because of the time the conversations take? If not, then why criticise people who have a professionals eye for the salvage industry? Seriously, beasties skins, teeth and bones are decent (or at least cool) crafting materials, looting everything of value that they can? Why not do it?
I do not really enjoy entire sessions spent talking, but some of the other players do, so I roll with it, I do enjoy looting (not to the extent the group mentions seems to, but that is due to being a higher level campaign where a few everburning torches will make no odds) But taking every weapon, piece of armour and bit of exotic material we can find makes perfect sense, either to sell, or to equip and aid allied forces in exchange for favours/shelter later. [for instance buying and freeing slaves is a minor party hobby, we can't go against the slaver societies yet, we can rescue a few that way]
Does this work by RAW?
1. Kill a big, fat orc
2. Render for soap; make sure you only take fat and flesh
3. Cast Restore Corpse and start over
If it does, I think I've got a new business for my grim-n-gritty homebrew...
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Does this work by RAW?
1. Kill a big, fat orc
2. Render for soap; make sure you only take fat and flesh
3. Cast Restore Corpse and start over...
Orc Soap! For all your CR 1/2 cleaning needs!
Seriously though there seem to be tiers here. I am, admittedly, guilty of ripping copper wire out of places we've been sent to, but I'd draw the line at rendering down sentient beings.
Its an older ethic ironically. Most older players took the ethic of 'adventurer as getting loot.'
There are drawbacks to it of course, but the trick is that GM needs to prepare for it ahead of time. And sadly, preparing for that stuff ahead of time can cause trouble for the non-loot-crazy guys.
Do I think you should 'account' for all of the geegaws in the treasure? No. Let them have them. Don't populate a dungeon with a lot of super expensive crap.
You don't need a gold door, or an adamantine trapdoor (its a trap door, its defense is to be hidden). And the iron from standard dungeon fixtures isn't going to go well.
If you want a RAW solution though, I'm sorry, you're screwed. By RAW I can destroy WBL at around 7th level if I choose to just roll into a town and take everything there (cows, pigs, chickens, chairs, clothes, bottles, belts, and /buildings/ all have value.
And yes, I tried to do the Gentleman Adventurer, Real Estate Specialist thing once before the DM (rightly) shot me down for trying to sell and rent out the recently vacated buildings of orcs in scenic areas of historical significance.
And yes, I tried to do the Gentleman Adventurer, Real Estate Specialist thing once before the DM (rightly) shot me down for trying to sell and rent out the recently vacated buildings of orcs in scenic areas of historical significance.
Why did he shoot you down? It worked for my merchant princess. Depending on the location this can be a nice steady source of group cash to keep you guys stocked up on cure wands.
. . . I do not really enjoy entire sessions spent talking, but some of the other players do, so I roll with it, . . . .
So... Enough Talk. Let's fight.
As others have already mentioned, by decoupling the money = power players are more likely to focus on something else. I've cribbed some of the numerous inherent bonus fixes making them part of the leveling process as opposed to having everyone scrambling for the big six/magic christmas tree effect. Those that still wanted to loot everything were somewhat satisfied by having minions, possibly one or two followers with a case of hero worship, manage the drudgery. Then you get to hand wave it and report how much more they got later.
On the other hand, has anyone taken advantage of unlimited cantrips to mend and clean things in dungeons, thus netting you more/better loot?
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And yes, I tried to do the Gentleman Adventurer, Real Estate Specialist thing once before the DM (rightly) shot me down for trying to sell and rent out the recently vacated buildings of orcs in scenic areas of historical significance.
Why did he shoot you down? It worked for my merchant princess. Depending on the location this can be a nice steady source of group cash to keep you guys stocked up on cure wands.
Some nonsense about the king owning it or something. This was way back in the mid-90s when I was but a little Spook and still in high school.
It was like 'Why didn't the king do something about it?' 'Orcs.' 'So wait, he can deal with /us/ who killed the orcs, but he couldn't deal with the orcs?'
It bugged me because even at that age I knew that's the kind of stuff you did to actually earn a title.
"My liege, I have slain the Punching Axe tribe, I wish to have the lands."
And so on.
While I've explained above I'm not a fan of "extreme looting" I do expect at least a little bit, like robbing the dead of armor and prying out everburning torches. Why? Well on top of the metagaming as an old-skool kid and knowing that adventuring=looting, I also figure it's in character for a lot of PCs.
Think about it: why is your fighter a fighter? Was he born of noble families and is used to wealth and privelage? No, more than likely this is some middle class or lower kid who's never seen more than, say, a couple hundred gold all at once in his life! Now imagine a guy like that walking into a dungeon filled with fancy statues, gold filigree and everburning torches. OF COURSE he's gonna try and grab this stuff! With what's just laying around on the walls he could eat like a king for a week; after one encounter if he didn't have to split the take he could retire.
Of course, if he wants to continue his life of adventure then it'll take more than one encounter to survive, but that's why he brought that crowbar...
(braid it's hair to make the wicks).
Hair makes a terrible wick.
Mark, that's probably true for a low level character who's never experienced wealth, but after a few levels that novelty should wear off. He's already rich. It would be like Bill Gates stopping to pick up a penny off the street.
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How so? Was something stopping you from looting or selling? Is some mysterious force inhibiting your haggling? I'm pretty sure it boils down to what I said. "Different people enjoy different things from the game."
What's stopping me? I'm not interested in spending hours "pretend shopping" I would rather engage in more interesting RP or fighting villains. If I was to "join in" then that would just increase the amount of time devoted to what I consider one of the least interesting parts of the game.
Would you be as upset if someone took JUST as much time collecting and learning spells? Spending JUST as much time haggling over the prices? Building their keep? Haggling over feed cost for a animal companion? Trading stories with all the old people at the park?
Possibly, if it happened frequently and took outrageous amounts of game time. Any single player monopolizing the game is a problem, and if it's going to take a large amount of time then single character shenanegans should be saved for time when the GM and player can sit down together and hammer that stuff out.
But these other things that you bring up have never annoyed me, and have never chewed up as much game time in a more boreing way than "trips to the Pathfinder Pawnshop" do. If you and your playgroup enjoy that type of play, then have at it, it isn't a problem. I, on the other hand, will tell players in games that I GM that "there is no real market for cartolads of junk, and if there was I would just give you less real treasure if you insist of carrying it back" That way the game can focus on the parts that everyone enjoys, not parts that only a couple people enjoy.
So far my first group hasn't started thinking like that too much. The occasion when it HAS come up I simply said, "there's nothing else worth taking."
If I wanted to be more detail-oriented, I'd have a table of events that happened whenever they tried to scavenge things from the dungeon that wasn't intended loot. Make it fun but punishing....like..
I want to take the torches on the wall.
Ok, roll 1d20.
What? What check is that?
[any old answer here]
I rolled a 19, that's awesome! I'm going to ...
wait...as you reach for the torch, it suddenly flashes brightly, burning off your eyebrows, and melts...
what?!?!?
You now have a -1 penalty on CHA checks for the next week while they regrow.
How so? Was something stopping you from looting or selling? Is some mysterious force inhibiting your haggling? I'm pretty sure it boils down to what I said. "Different people enjoy different things from the game."What's stopping me? I'm not interested in spending hours "pretend shopping" I would rather engage in more interesting RP or fighting villains. If I was to "join in" then that would just increase the amount of time devoted to what I consider one of the least interesting parts of the game.
So it wasn't what you said like "Yeah but at least when someone is picking up the barmaid or fighting rogues I can decide to join in". it's almost like it boils down to "Different people enjoy different things from the game."...
Would you be as upset if someone took JUST as much time collecting and learning spells? Spending JUST as much time haggling over the prices? Building their keep? Haggling over feed cost for a animal companion? Trading stories with all the old people at the park?Possibly, if it happened frequently and took outrageous amounts of game time. Any single player monopolizing the game is a problem, and if it's going to take a large amount of time then single character shenanegans should be saved for time when the GM and player can sit down together and hammer that stuff out.
But these other things that you bring up have never annoyed me, and have never chewed up as much game time in a more boreing way than "trips to the Pathfinder Pawnshop" do. If you and your playgroup enjoy that type of play, then have at it, it isn't a problem. I, on the other hand, will tell players in games that I GM that "there is no real market for cartolads of junk, and if there was I would just give you less real treasure if you insist of carrying it back" That way the game can focus on the parts that everyone enjoys, not parts that only a couple people enjoy.
So you're saying EVERY one loves RP or fighting? You sure you aren't saying what YOU like? I know several people that would be bored to tears with 6 hours of straight RP without a fight or just fight after fight. Seems kind of off to me to say that what a couple of people find fun should be ignored because you don't like it.
Mark, that's probably true for a low level character who's never experienced wealth, but after a few levels that novelty should wear off. He's already rich. It would be like Bill Gates stopping to pick up a penny off the street.
Remember your Beverly Hillbillies: they had a concrete pond, not a swimming pool. My point is it's hard to take the common out of the man. Can't the reverse also be true? Yeah, I'm 10th level, but that just means it's easier for me to pry this brasswork off the wall without damaging it.
Whatev. Again, I'm not a fan of really extreme looting, but I can definitely understand where it comes from. I try to keep it from happening in my games nowadays by:
1. assuring my players: there will be more than enough cash in the "cash" loots up front
2. giving them said "cash" loots
3. working directly w/the players who DO like looting and figuring out their motivations, then trying to channel those into other avenues of resource or development
Edit: oh, and another thing I do with loot piles to stay out of the minutia is to give them piles of coins as "You find 'X' amount of gold in mixed coins." That way instead of trying to account for every last copper piece they just know they have SOME silver, SOME copper and SOME gold totalling, say, 100 GP.
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So you're saying EVERY one loves RP or fighting? You sure you aren't saying what YOU like? I know several people that would be bored to tears with 6 hours of straight RP without a fight or just fight after fight. Seems kind of off to me to say that what a couple of people find fun should be ignored because you don't like it.
Wow, are you ever good at reading exactly what you like into what people write. Look at my post, I don't say anything like that.
I said that if you and your group enjoy endless bartering and haggling then you should do that. I said that I want "My" games to focus on things that we (the people I play with) all enjoy. All of us like RP, and all of my group love combat. So it makes more sense that our games focus on those things rather than parts that only a couple players enjoy. I think that every group should try to focus on parts of the game that everyone enjoys and takes part in. The parts of the game that only one or two players are interested in should be given only limited amounts of time, or just removed entirely.