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Bards DO NOT out damage rogues. This is a poor character design if this is happening. I also don't consider a class with 6 levels of spells to be a martial class.
Yes, they do. They have accuracy and damage enhancers built into the class. Large sections of the bestiary are not immune to the bonus damage tools they have. They are not dependent on Flanking, Feinting, or invisibility to apply their bonus damage. Creatures do not become immune to their bonus damage by using a first level spell or moving into dim light.
On top of this, they have spells including multiple buffing spells.
You are correct.Crit range does nothing for accuracy. Only a 20 is an automatic hit. You could have a crit range of 15-20 on a keen scimitar and still miss on a 19.
And now the healing can begin. *In the name of Pun-Pun, release this posters eyes that he might see thine wisdom of the underlying truth of all things.*
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Not all bards are spoony. Everything a Rogue can do, an Archeologist can do better.
Sneak Attack.
Sneak Attack.
Not all bards are spoony. Everything a Rogue can do, an Archeologist can do better.
Which less specifically is a form of damage. If you mean better at precision damage, or sneak damage specifically, no it is not. It is however more accurate and more damaging most of the time.
Combat starts, what do you think is better?
- Rogue moves and (maybe) deal Sneak Attack damage to one opponent.
- Bard spends 1 round and suddenly the whole team is under effect of Haste and Bardic Performance, increasing their accuracy, damage, AC, saves, CMD, number of attacks and movement speed.
Admittedly, the Rogue dealt more damage on the 1st round, but it's probably not enough to kill the enemy. So the frist target will die on the 2nd round anyway... And the remaining opposition isn't flat-footed anymore, probably not flanked either. But Haste and Versatile Performance still remain. And the Bard joins the fray.
Now... What deals more damage? 5d6 or the extra damage caused by the whole party getting one extra attack and having all their attacks have better accuracy and damage?
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It is possible to make a rogue be effective with a high degree of system mastery. But, it requires MUCH more effort to do so than any other class, and no matter what you do, Sneak Attack is still situational. There are enemies that are immune to it, and your will frequently be unable to apply damage to those that are not immune to it due to position, lighting, or spell effects.
Sneak Attack is not a balanced replacement for spells, not to mention performance.
A Bard, Ranger, Slayer, Investigator, or Alchemist is a more than viable Rogue replacement that is much easier to make effective and much harder to gimp.
I like Rogues. I just wish they they were better at being roguish than any of the half a dozen classes that are better than them,
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@Khrysaor:
Hey, you can't ask for proof that bards do more damage and then complain about optimized builds. That's not how discussions work.
If you really insist on using CWI shenanigans, okay, build will be up in a bit. Though that +26/+26/+21 to hit on yours takes two rounds of buffing to set up, I'll note. So no complaining when my version takes the same.
@Zalman:
The assertion is not that Bardic Performance helps Stealth, but that Bards and Rogues are equal in Stealth since neither get special bonuses to it, and that the Bard's Performance ups damage to compete with, and surpass, the Rogue. Which is pretty much objectively true.
This assumes everyone is full attacking in the second round and you have others that are melee/ranged attack focused
On the 2nd round, at least 2 different character are likely to be full attacking, the Fighter and the Bard himself.
What if the bard and rogue are in a party with a wizard and a caster focused divine class?
Then the Bard just saved them a spell. Now the Wizard can summon something, use a different buff or cast some battlefield control spell. Rogue is still hoping his extra d6 are enough.
What happens if the bard decides he wants to put up good hope instead while the wizard casts haste? Now that bard isn't doing much more damage.
What happens if the Rogue decides to boost his own saves... Oh, right! He can't. His only option is try to Sneak Attack and hope no one targets his pathetic saves.
Maybe the rogue opened up with a ranged attack using snap shot in the surprise round where the bard didn't see it coming.
Rogues ain't particularly good at Perception or Stealth. They certainly aren't better than Bards at any of those.
The rogue then uses his vanish SLA
You mean the one that simulates a 1st level spell from the Bard's spell list, requires 2 weak Rogue Talents, burns an standard action and can only be used twice a day? That one? I see
And what is the enemy doing during all of this? Bird-watching?
Round 2 sees the everyone with buffs and the rogue up 10d6 sneak +2d6 weapon +15 static bonus.
And all the the Rogue got over the Bard are 10d6... Meanwhile, the Bard not only can buff all his companions, he can also help them deal with difficult situations.
Is the Fighter about to engage an enemy spell caster? Bard casts Silence on him. Is an ally grappled? Liberating Command. Did someone just fail a critical saving throw? Saving Finale. A spell is causing trouble? Dispel Magic. Invisible enemy attacking? Glitterdust. Opponent is too far for the Fighter to reach?. Dimension Door (Rogue gets an Sneak Attack? Nice, I guess... Bard sets up a Fighter Full Attack in the same round that he activates Versatile Performance).
Somehow, it feels like having all these options is far, far more valuable than a few extra d6 with poor will save. (Notice how Heroism lasts 10min per level, making it very easy for the Bard to have it cast on both the Fighter and himself whenever they enter an area where they expect trouble).
PS: ALL of that can be done with a single build. In fact, all the spells I mentioned were taken from a single Bard character sheet I have in HL.
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My sneakiest PC, that stealthed into combat, hit for a bunch of damage, and then immediately went back into stealth, was a Ranger/Fighter.
He could stealth in Bright light, Dim Light, Darkness, against Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, without cover, concealment, or being unobserved.
Oh, and he handled traps, like a pro.
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Wait.
Are you saying those that struggle with Rogues are those that are not "playing right" because they don't have extensive system mastery, and min-max the crap out of them, but straight up complain if any other build, comparing itself to the Rogue, is even min-maxed at all?
Look, love it, or hate it, there is not a single role, effect, or skill, that the Rogue can do better than anyone else.
Nothing.
Not even Sneak Attack.
How did you get a familiar, exactly?It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.
Speaking of contrived circumstances, how are you considering *always* getting SA?I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.
How many feats and talents are necessary to make all that possible in 2 rounds? And what happens when you don't get a surprise round? Those don't happen all the time, you know... Especially considering you likely have two guys in medium/heavy armor walking around with you.
BTW, you can't full attack during a surprise round. You can't even move and then attack.
You can cast a spell, though.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard OR move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
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...what should I do? Rogues aren't spell casters... or fighters.. or... blah blah blah...
No. They are not.
First, you did the right thing taking a race with darkvision... oh, wait, you didn't.
Step 1 - make the Rogue a Half-Orc or Dwarf, if for no other reason than it then only leaves you free to NOT dip into Shadow Dancer 2 levels for dark vision.
Step 2- if you want a well armored/hidden/hitting rogue, take minor and major magic - shield, obscuring mist, or true strike would be my suggestion. True striking rogues are very dangerous when they apply a no save STR drain attack... repeatedly... that stacks. (A 18 str fighter who is wearing full plate will be down in 4 hits no matter the damage, as they can only LIFT AND DRAG the armor at 10 Str)
Step 3 - if you want a rogue who will eventually be able to either do as much damage as a fighter (though not a similarly built fighter due to BAB and feats), take a whip specialization, whip master tree and sap master. Now you are stunning/attacking/sneak attacking/knocking out/whatever you want to do to everyone within 15 feet of you. Lunge if you eventually get the feats = 20' (and there is another that makes it 25').
Step 4 - as a person with darkvision, get some darkness, somehow. Because most humans can't see you, you can see them, and well... Bam. Sneak attack damage (without flanking, etc.)
If only Rogues had fifty more feats they could do the whole dimensional dervish tree along with the whip tree and flank at 25' with themselves, striking everyone within a 50 foot x 25 column... alas, it is not so. You have to pick and decide what you want to be able to do.
You can also do a ranged version of a straight 10d6 eventual sneak attack rogue, and then sniper goggles and dark vision are your two best friends. Using a single feat (rapid reload) with a hand crossbow, and applying poison... of course.
When did I say you get to full attack in a surprise round? Thanks for the rules check. You all love your inferences and putting words in others mouths to win the internets.
Ahem... You seem to be missing the point here...
BTW, you can't full attack during a surprise round. You can't even move and then attack.
So you are not getting any full attack on the surprise round unless you start combat adjacent to your opponent or use a ranged weapon (in which case you won't be getting many Sneak Attacks after the 1st one).
You can cast a spell, though.
Bards can still cast spells, though...
And if you're going to say the Rogue is invisible so he positions himself right next to the enemy, I'll say the Bard not only is invisible, but he also buffed the whole party.
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Quicken spell like ability is a monster feat that PCs can take. At level 10 you can quicken a level 1 SLA. So that's 2 quickened vanishes a day.
I'm not here to argue builds (although I'm itching to make an Alch to throw into the ring for this), but this build now requires a monster feat? I'm not one to say players can't take them, but that's pretty intense for someone to pick who's starting the game, like this person seems to be.
First, you did the right thing taking a race with darkvision... oh, wait, you didn't.
Is the condescending tone really needed here? And again, is only a Rogue with darkvision viable? Would you say any other class NEEDS it?
The problem with the Rogue isn't that it can't be good, it's that it's not good out of the box. Everyone can throw around their system mastery builds, but builds from people who were just starting off would do better to show the basics of the class, what they're taking, and why.
A Rogue can contribute, but not at the level of its competitors, and not with the same level of system mastery, and that's the problem. I've had players play Rogues as their first character in my game, dual wielding gets picked up a lot, and they end up unable to hit. They're not going to think "Hm, maybe if I take this Rogue Talent tree along with this bestiary feat, I can get sneak more often." They're going to think "I'm not hitting, the Fighter's hitting, why can't I be more like them?"
And woe be to the first tine party with a Bard (I've seen it, the envy is almost palpable), which is the problem. Out of the box, the Rogue just doesn't do what it says on the box. Even the Fighter does most of what it claims (Rousing armies? Seriously?), or what you'd expect from a class with a name like that. The Rogue really doesn't.
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Currently I run a campaign with three rogues in it, level 17, mythic 3.
1st is Rogue 7, Shadow Dancer 10: range rogue, with high dex, ricochet, dimensional dervish, etc...
2nd is Rogue 9, Shadow Dancer 8: reach melee rogue with high str and charisma/intimidate (mythic makes these abilities crazy).
3rd is a Rogue 13, Shadow Dancer 4: the "weak one" of the group who often does great damage in melee due to a dancing keened rapier coupled with his own keen rapier attacks. Picked up "all critical hits confirm" from Harrow Deck of Many Things along the way.
All 3 have Mythic Mirror Dodge, Sniper Goggles (so cheap for being able to sit at range and deal precision damage at will), and other bangles... It is a crew of death you won't ever see coming... As the Queen from the CotCT has leant the hard way. They weren't mythic until after they drove her off the first time/finished the path.
While there may be some "better classes" out there, we have had tons of fun with these three musketeers.
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@Khrysaor:
Okay, here's the Bard build.
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +20,
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 24 (+7 Armor, +1 NA, +1 Deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck, +1 Insight)
HP 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +17, Will +10
Special Defenses evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee wakizashi +14/+9 (1d6+7/15–20) or piranha strike +12/+7 (1d6+11/15-20)
Ranged shortbow +20/+15 (1d6+3/19-20x3) or Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11 (1d6+7/19-20x3) +6 to hit and +5 damage from Luck, Good Hope, and Haste so +22/+22/+22/+17 (1d6+12/19-20x3)
SPELLS (Concentration +13, Save DC 13+Spell Level)
4th: 1/day: Dimension Door, Invisibility (Greater)
3rd: 4/day: Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, 1 more,
2nd: 5/day: Acute Senses, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tongues, Versatile Weapon,
1st: 6/day: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Step, Grease, Vanish, Undetectable Alignment,
0th: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation,
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 24*, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16*
BAB +7; CMB +6; CMD 25
Feats Lingering Performance, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Craft Wondrous Item, Weapon Focus (Shortbow)
Skills: Acrobatics +20, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +27, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (Engineering) +11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +11, Knowledge (Local) +15, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Knowledge (Nobility) +11, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Perception +20, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +16,
Languages Common, Elven, Orcish,
Traits Vagabond Child, Fate's Favored
Special archaeologist's luck (7 rds/day, +3 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls), rogue talents (weapon training, combat trick), clever explorer +5 (Can take 10 on Disable Device under stress), bardic knowledge +5, lore master (1/day), jack of all trades,
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (1), potion of lesser restoration (1), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), wand of shield (50 charges), over 2k miscellaneous other consumables,
Other Gear Bane Baldric, Cloak of Resistance +3, Mithral Kikko +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Charisma +2, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attacks), +3 Shortbow w/ 120 arrows, Handy Haversack, Slippers of Spider Climbing, dagger, masterwork thief's tools
So, this build gets five attacks at 3d6+14 with Bane to your three at 1d6+16+5d6.
With those numbers, this build averages out at 139.944 or so. Yours averages out at 119.98 (partly because sneak attack doesn't double on a crit).
And mine provides Good Hope and Haste to his entire party while yours provides them nothing. Now the Bane Baldric is only 5 rounds, I freely admit...but the Boots are only 10 rounds, and even without Bane, this build's DPR is around 77, and that combined with the +3 to hit, +2 damage and extra attack to his entire party the whole time is a better investment of resources.
Oh, and that assumes you have Sneak Attack and Full Attacks the whole time, too. Which is...a trifle unlikely, let's say. It assumes nothing on the Bard's part but existing and having two rounds to buff (and the two rounds is assumed by your build as well).
Outside combat, you have a slightly higher Perception just walking around...but the Bard can manage a +40 when he feels like it, equal or around equal in every possible skill (and has all the Knowledge skills to boot), vastly better saves while in a fight (all the listed ones get +5, remember) and slightly better ones even outside it.
And before you complain that it's an archer build...part of the issue with Rogues is that they can't do good archer builds. Besides, I was bored of melee. A melee version id doable, if a trifle more annoying to manage.
Oh, and your build is costing at least 15gp per battle. this build costs more like 1 or 2.
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@Khrysaor:
Just check this thread, made by avid Rogue fans.
Yeah. I never got why people think the class needs "fixing". I never played a rogue that I thought was broke because it couldn't cast magic like a bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, witch... etc... I never complained when someone in the group had a skill higher than mine (ahem, bard INT based skills). I never complained that I didn't hit things as often as the fighter (though, often I did because I either got us both flanking bonus or they were left flat footed for me after one attack). I just kept on playing my CHARACTER.
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Yeah. I never got why people think the class needs "fixing". I never played a rogue that I thought was broke because it couldn't cast magic like a bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, witch... etc... I never complained when someone in the group had a skill higher than mine (ahem, bard INT based skills). I never complained that I didn't hit things as often as the fighter (though, often I did because I either got us both flanking bonus or they were left flat footed for me after one attack). I just kept on playing my CHARACTER.@Khrysaor:
Just check this thread, made by avid Rogue fans.
If you enjoy playing a character is hopelessly outclassed by everyone in the party, that's fine. But most people play this game to be heroes, not mascots.
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So put your money where your mouth is. Whip up your best Rogue build. We'll see how it matches up to a Bard. Otherwise you're just making meaningless noise.
and no doubt, your Bard will get magic... ROGUES AREN'T SPELL CASTERS. Why do people keep trying to compare them? Put your best Bard up against my level 20 Wizard and his 800,000/25,000 = 32 wishes... Oh? The Bard loses? What a shocker!
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If I really insist on using CWI shenanigans?! You're the one that picked the build claiming you were better than a rogue using those CWI shenanigans. This was your choice not mine.
Actually, I suggested that we not do that. You never responded...despite responding to other parts of that post.
And even in my first post on the topic I suggested reading the thread I linked (which I've got like 4 builds in, the last couple sans CWI) not the specific post. I probably should've linked one of those later non-CWI ones, but was in a hurry. I did apologize for that...in the same post I mentioned skipping CWI.
That build on mine takes one round tops or none if the reduce person has been up for a bit since it's 10 minutes. Same as you putting up any minute per level buff. The wand action takes no action of mine. The familiar does it just fine.
Good Hope is also 10 minutes. And fine, the build I just posted takes one round longer to prep. Noted.
Your version needs haste to keep up with attacks. That requires the rogue build a free action when a full attack is available.
Sure. But his spells hit the whole party...which the boots quite definitively do not. With even one more weapon using character and two rounds of combat total, the group version is almost certainly better.
You can't make a claim, post a build, then complain when someone proves you wrong.
That's...really not what happened there.