
andreww |
andreww wrote:Bards DO NOT out damage rogues. This is a poor character design if this is happening. I also don't consider a class with 6 levels of spells to be a martial class.Khrysaor wrote:The point is that they do less damage, but provide more utility outside of combat than other martials.Not really. Bards handily out damage rogues AND provide significant in and out of combat utility.
They really do. The numbers have been run plenty of times. It isn't down to poor character building but is an artifact of rather wonky class design. Rogues are a rather MAD class, with 3/4 BaB, no inherent accuracy bonus and a situational damage bonus. It is actually very difficult for them to compete with anyone. They are an extremely frustrating class to try and build with any real degree of effectiveness against equal or higher CR opposition.

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Bards DO NOT out damage rogues. This is a poor character design if this is happening. I also don't consider a class with 6 levels of spells to be a martial class.
Yes, they do. They have accuracy and damage enhancers built into the class. Large sections of the bestiary are not immune to the bonus damage tools they have. They are not dependent on Flanking, Feinting, or invisibility to apply their bonus damage. Creatures do not become immune to their bonus damage by using a first level spell or moving into dim light.
On top of this, they have spells including multiple buffing spells.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:They really do. The numbers have been run plenty of times. It isn't down to poor character building but is an artifact of rather wonky class design. Rogues are a rather MAD class, with 3/4 BaB, no inherent accuracy bonus and a situational damage bonus. It is actually very difficult for them to compete with anyone. They are an extremely frustrating class to try and build with any real degree of effectiveness against equal or higher CR opposition.andreww wrote:Bards DO NOT out damage rogues. This is a poor character design if this is happening. I also don't consider a class with 6 levels of spells to be a martial class.Khrysaor wrote:The point is that they do less damage, but provide more utility outside of combat than other martials.Not really. Bards handily out damage rogues AND provide significant in and out of combat utility.
Yet I posted one in this thread that competes with a bard build and an alchemist build and isn't entirely optimized like the other builds aren't either. On a sneak attack the rogue does about 17.5 more damage.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:
Bards DO NOT out damage rogues. This is a poor character design if this is happening. I also don't consider a class with 6 levels of spells to be a martial class.
Yes, they do. They have accuracy and damage enhancers built into the class. Large sections of the bestiary are not immune to the bonus damage tools they have. They are not dependent on Flanking, Feinting, or invisibility to apply their bonus damage. Creatures do not become immune to their bonus damage by using a first level spell or moving into dim light.
On top of this, they have spells including multiple buffing spells.
Accuracy only helps you to a point. More than necessary does not add any further benefit. Eventually you hit a point where you only miss on a 1 which means it does not matter putting any more accuracy into a build. Buy a keen high crit range weapon that increases your chances of hitting on your lowest iterative if you have problems.

andreww |
Yet I posted one in this thread that competes with a bard build and an alchemist build and isn't entirely optimized like the other builds. On a sneak attack the rogue does about 17.5 more damage.
You mean the one that requires two rounds of set up to activate your SLA and wand which, given the durations, are likely to have to be done during combat. And the numbers you can only maintain for a handful of rounds per day because you are relying on boots of speed.
What do you expect the rest of the group are doing in this time? At level 10 you dont have the time to be messing around like this, too many things have too many ways of simply removing your from the fight in an instant.
You then have to spend round three getting into position meaning you are then only making a single attack on that turn as well. Given you have a fortitude and will defence of +8 you may well not actually ever get to do anything.

Anzyr |

Imbicatus wrote:You are correct.Crit range does nothing for accuracy. Only a 20 is an automatic hit. You could have a crit range of 15-20 on a keen scimitar and still miss on a 19.
And now the healing can begin. *In the name of Pun-Pun, release this posters eyes that he might see thine wisdom of the underlying truth of all things.*

Anzyr |

Imbicatus wrote:Sneak Attack.
Not all bards are spoony. Everything a Rogue can do, an Archeologist can do better.
Which less specifically is a form of damage. If you mean better at precision damage, or sneak damage specifically, no it is not. It is however more accurate and more damaging most of the time.

Lemmy |

Combat starts, what do you think is better?
- Rogue moves and (maybe) deal Sneak Attack damage to one opponent.
- Bard spends 1 round and suddenly the whole team is under effect of Haste and Bardic Performance, increasing their accuracy, damage, AC, saves, CMD, number of attacks and movement speed.
Admittedly, the Rogue dealt more damage on the 1st round, but it's probably not enough to kill the enemy. So the frist target will die on the 2nd round anyway... And the remaining opposition isn't flat-footed anymore, probably not flanked either. But Haste and Versatile Performance still remain. And the Bard joins the fray.
Now... What deals more damage? 5d6 or the extra damage caused by the whole party getting one extra attack and having all their attacks have better accuracy and damage?

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:Yet I posted one in this thread that competes with a bard build and an alchemist build and isn't entirely optimized like the other builds. On a sneak attack the rogue does about 17.5 more damage.You mean the one that requires two rounds of set up to activate your SLA and wand which, given the durations, are likely to have to be done during combat. And the numbers you can only maintain for a handful of rounds per day because you are relying on boots of speed.
What do you expect the rest of the group are doing in this time? At level 10 you dont have the time to be messing around like this, too many things have too many ways of simply removing your from the fight in an instant.
You then have to spend round three getting into position meaning you are then only making a single attack on that turn as well. Given you have a fortitude and will defence of +8 you may well not actually ever get to do anything.
You mean that SLA that lasts for 10 minutes and my familiar that has the capability of applying the wand on me and requiring no action of my own?
Your entire argument is circumstantial at best. Other casters will be putting up buffs in the first round including bards. How many full attacks do you get in your combat day that require that many more than 10 rounds of full attacking? Sounds like your GM lines everything up for you to make you feel more heroic.

Khrysaor |
Combat starts, what do you think is better?
- Rogue moves and (maybe) deal Sneak Attack damage to one opponent.
- Bard spends 1 round and suddenly the whole team is under effect of Haste and Bardic Performance, increasing their accuracy, damage, AC, saves, CMD, number of attacks and movement speed.Admittedly, the Rogue dealt more damage on the 1st round, but it's probably not enough to kill the enemy. So the frist target will die on the 2nd round anyway... And the remaining opposition isn't flat-footed anymore, probably not flanked either. But Haste and Versatile Performance still remain. And the Bard joins the fray.
Now... What deals more damage? 5d6 or the extra damage caused by the whole party getting one extra attack and having all their attacks have better accuracy and damage?
This assumes everyone is full attacking in the second round and you have others that are melee/ranged attack focused. What if the bard and rogue are in a party with a wizard and a caster focused divine class? You can't make up arguments that favor you to prove a point. What happens if the bard decides he wants to put up good hope instead while the wizard casts haste? Now that bard isn't doing much more damage.
Maybe the rogue opened up with a ranged attack using snap shot in the surprise round where the bard didn't see it coming. The rogue then uses his vanish SLA and moves into position using tactics to provoke an AoO and gets another sneak attack while the casters buffed. Round 2 sees the everyone with buffs and the rogue up 10d6 sneak +2d6 weapon +15 static bonus.

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It is possible to make a rogue be effective with a high degree of system mastery. But, it requires MUCH more effort to do so than any other class, and no matter what you do, Sneak Attack is still situational. There are enemies that are immune to it, and your will frequently be unable to apply damage to those that are not immune to it due to position, lighting, or spell effects.
Sneak Attack is not a balanced replacement for spells, not to mention performance.
A Bard, Ranger, Slayer, Investigator, or Alchemist is a more than viable Rogue replacement that is much easier to make effective and much harder to gimp.
I like Rogues. I just wish they they were better at being roguish than any of the half a dozen classes that are better than them,

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@Khrysaor:
Hey, you can't ask for proof that bards do more damage and then complain about optimized builds. That's not how discussions work.
If you really insist on using CWI shenanigans, okay, build will be up in a bit. Though that +26/+26/+21 to hit on yours takes two rounds of buffing to set up, I'll note. So no complaining when my version takes the same.
@Zalman:
The assertion is not that Bardic Performance helps Stealth, but that Bards and Rogues are equal in Stealth since neither get special bonuses to it, and that the Bard's Performance ups damage to compete with, and surpass, the Rogue. Which is pretty much objectively true.

Lemmy |

This assumes everyone is full attacking in the second round and you have others that are melee/ranged attack focused
On the 2nd round, at least 2 different character are likely to be full attacking, the Fighter and the Bard himself.
What if the bard and rogue are in a party with a wizard and a caster focused divine class?
Then the Bard just saved them a spell. Now the Wizard can summon something, use a different buff or cast some battlefield control spell. Rogue is still hoping his extra d6 are enough.
What happens if the bard decides he wants to put up good hope instead while the wizard casts haste? Now that bard isn't doing much more damage.
What happens if the Rogue decides to boost his own saves... Oh, right! He can't. His only option is try to Sneak Attack and hope no one targets his pathetic saves.
Maybe the rogue opened up with a ranged attack using snap shot in the surprise round where the bard didn't see it coming.
Rogues ain't particularly good at Perception or Stealth. They certainly aren't better than Bards at any of those.
The rogue then uses his vanish SLA
You mean the one that simulates a 1st level spell from the Bard's spell list, requires 2 weak Rogue Talents, burns an standard action and can only be used twice a day? That one? I see
And what is the enemy doing during all of this? Bird-watching?
Round 2 sees the everyone with buffs and the rogue up 10d6 sneak +2d6 weapon +15 static bonus.
And all the the Rogue got over the Bard are 10d6... Meanwhile, the Bard not only can buff all his companions, he can also help them deal with difficult situations.
Is the Fighter about to engage an enemy spell caster? Bard casts Silence on him. Is an ally grappled? Liberating Command. Did someone just fail a critical saving throw? Saving Finale. A spell is causing trouble? Dispel Magic. Invisible enemy attacking? Glitterdust. Opponent is too far for the Fighter to reach?. Dimension Door (Rogue gets an Sneak Attack? Nice, I guess... Bard sets up a Fighter Full Attack in the same round that he activates Versatile Performance).
Somehow, it feels like having all these options is far, far more valuable than a few extra d6 with poor will save. (Notice how Heroism lasts 10min per level, making it very easy for the Bard to have it cast on both the Fighter and himself whenever they enter an area where they expect trouble).
PS: ALL of that can be done with a single build. In fact, all the spells I mentioned were taken from a single Bard character sheet I have in HL.

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My sneakiest PC, that stealthed into combat, hit for a bunch of damage, and then immediately went back into stealth, was a Ranger/Fighter.
He could stealth in Bright light, Dim Light, Darkness, against Scent, Tremorsense, Blindsense, Blindsight, without cover, concealment, or being unobserved.
Oh, and he handled traps, like a pro.

Khrysaor |
It is possible to make a rogue be effective with a high degree of system mastery. But, it requires MUCH more effort to do so than any other class, and no matter what you do, Sneak Attack is still situational. There are enemies that are immune to it, and your will frequently be unable to apply damage to those that are not immune to it due to position, lighting, or spell effects.
Sneak Attack is not a balanced replacement for spells, not to mention performance.
A Bard, Ranger, Slayer, Investigator, or Alchemist is a more than viable Rogue replacement that is much easier to make effective and much harder to gimp.
I like Rogues. I just wish they they were better at being roguish than any of the half a dozen classes that are better than them,
This. A rogue can be effective if you know what you're doing, but it takes time and effort to understand it all. At high level play lighting and any spell that provides concealment is nullified with the headband of Ninjitsu. The miss chance applies, but that affects everyone who doesn't have darkvision or the blindsight line. A 300gp potion gives Darkvision for 3 hours which is enough to run a dungeon usually.
There's many ways to get sneak attack without flanking. The enforcer, sap master, shatter defense build is devastating if things aren't immune to non lethal where a level 10 could be dealing 10d6+40 a hit for the average of 75 a hit, full attacking for 150-225 damage when hasted which they can get from boots of speed.
Shatter defenses with Cornugun smash works.
Two weapon feint builds.
Greater feint builds that also provide a bonus to others.
Can take vanish as an SLA followed by the quicken SLA feat at level 10.
Can invest heavier into wisdom and take a Ki pool for vanishing trick. Unfortunately no access to master tricks for invisible blade which is ridiculous. They should be allowed to take one master trick like the ninja can take one advanced talent.
Hide in plain sight lets you stealth and get off an attack in your favored terrain.
Snap shot should ensure you always go first in a surprise round and get a ranged sneak attack.
Greater dirty trick can be useful for a while. Especially if you manage to reduce a creatures dex and Str in turn dropping its CMD.
A swashbuckler archetype loses trap finding (most people don't care for traps anyway) and gets to a bonus to fear saves and can take the combat trick twice which makes many of these builds easier to make as you essentially have the versatility of a fighter with feats. Two combat tricks, weapon trick, finesse rogue,

Khrysaor |
How did you get a familiar, exactly?
It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.
Speaking of contrived circumstances, how are you considering *always* getting SA?
I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.

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Wait.
Are you saying those that struggle with Rogues are those that are not "playing right" because they don't have extensive system mastery, and min-max the crap out of them, but straight up complain if any other build, comparing itself to the Rogue, is even min-maxed at all?
Look, love it, or hate it, there is not a single role, effect, or skill, that the Rogue can do better than anyone else.
Nothing.
Not even Sneak Attack.

Lemmy |

Justin Sane wrote:How did you get a familiar, exactly?It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.
Justin Sane wrote:Speaking of contrived circumstances, how are you considering *always* getting SA?I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.
How many feats and talents are necessary to make all that possible in 2 rounds? And what happens when you don't get a surprise round? Those don't happen all the time, you know... Especially considering you likely have two guys in medium/heavy armor walking around with you.
BTW, you can't full attack during a surprise round. You can't even move and then attack.
You can cast a spell, though.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard OR move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Justin Sane |
It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.Ah, missed that one. My bad.
I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.
So what happens when you don't have a surprise round (ie, you're being ambushed)? Also, how are you getting (Quickened) Vanish? Major Magic is 2x per day. Also, high initiative is not Rogue exclusive, so what's your backup plan when you roll low? Also, what's your plan for rounds 2 and beyond?
EDIT: The point is the Bard does *at least* comparable damage to your Sneak Attack, every round of every combat, while still providing the party tons of extra benefits.

Khrysaor |
@Khrysaor:
Hey, you can't ask for proof that bards do more damage and then complain about optimized builds. That's not how discussions work.
If you really insist on using CWI shenanigans, okay, build will be up in a bit. Though that +26/+26/+21 to hit on yours takes two rounds of buffing to set up, I'll note. So no complaining when my version takes the same.
Your bard didn't do more damage than my rogue. The argument you made was an invisible bard does more damage than an invisible rogue. I proved you wrong.
If I really insist on using CWI shenanigans?! You're the one that picked the build claiming you were better than a rogue using those CWI shenanigans. This was your choice not mine.
That build on mine takes one round tops or none if the reduce person has been up for a bit since it's 10 minutes. Same as you putting up any minute per level buff. The wand action takes no action of mine. The familiar does it just fine.
Your version needs haste to keep up with attacks. That requires the rogue build a free action when a full attack is available.
You can't make a claim, post a build, then complain when someone proves you wrong.

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...what should I do? Rogues aren't spell casters... or fighters.. or... blah blah blah...
No. They are not.
First, you did the right thing taking a race with darkvision... oh, wait, you didn't.
Step 1 - make the Rogue a Half-Orc or Dwarf, if for no other reason than it then only leaves you free to NOT dip into Shadow Dancer 2 levels for dark vision.
Step 2- if you want a well armored/hidden/hitting rogue, take minor and major magic - shield, obscuring mist, or true strike would be my suggestion. True striking rogues are very dangerous when they apply a no save STR drain attack... repeatedly... that stacks. (A 18 str fighter who is wearing full plate will be down in 4 hits no matter the damage, as they can only LIFT AND DRAG the armor at 10 Str)
Step 3 - if you want a rogue who will eventually be able to either do as much damage as a fighter (though not a similarly built fighter due to BAB and feats), take a whip specialization, whip master tree and sap master. Now you are stunning/attacking/sneak attacking/knocking out/whatever you want to do to everyone within 15 feet of you. Lunge if you eventually get the feats = 20' (and there is another that makes it 25').
Step 4 - as a person with darkvision, get some darkness, somehow. Because most humans can't see you, you can see them, and well... Bam. Sneak attack damage (without flanking, etc.)
If only Rogues had fifty more feats they could do the whole dimensional dervish tree along with the whip tree and flank at 25' with themselves, striking everyone within a 50 foot x 25 column... alas, it is not so. You have to pick and decide what you want to be able to do.
You can also do a ranged version of a straight 10d6 eventual sneak attack rogue, and then sniper goggles and dark vision are your two best friends. Using a single feat (rapid reload) with a hand crossbow, and applying poison... of course.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.Ah, missed that one. My bad.Quote:I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.So what happens when you don't have a surprise round (ie, you're being ambushed)? Also, how are you getting (Quickened) Vanish? Major Magic is 2x per day. Also, high initiative is not Rogue exclusive, so what's your backup plan when you roll low? Also, what's your plan for rounds 2 and beyond?
My perception vs your stealth to notice the ambush. Taking ten the build I posted has a 36 perception and a 41 vs traps. Can all the creatures ambushing me beat that with stealth?
My suggestion was snap shot for surprise rounds. Automatically gives you a roll of 20 as long as you make a ranged attack.
Quicken spell like ability is a monster feat that PCs can take. At level 10 you can quicken a level 1 SLA. So that's 2 quickened vanishes a day.
I never made a plan for rounds two and beyond. The point was that by two rounds in a rogue can have 10d6 + 2 weapon hits + 2 static modifiers IF you are being surprised. If you do the surprising the rogue could get the surprise round attack and potentially a full attack in the first round against someone that hasn't acted first. Boots of speed and you have 4 attacks. 3 all have a good chance to hit and the last one will depend on what you invested in. With just three you're up to 15d6 + 3d6 shortbow + 24ish.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:You can't make a claim, post a build, then complain when someone proves you wrong.
Wait.
Didn't you do this?
I am pretty sure this happened.
Considering I've only posted one build to the argument that an invisible bard does more damage than an invisible rogue and provided more damage with the rogue build posted, I'm going to go with no. Thanks for trying though.

Khrysaor |
Khrysaor wrote:Justin Sane wrote:How did you get a familiar, exactly?It's a rogue talent. An optional class ability.
Justin Sane wrote:Speaking of contrived circumstances, how are you considering *always* getting SA?I never suggested always sneak attack anywhere. I listed a rogue going first in a surprise round which means everyone is flat footed followed by getting an AoO while invisible which a creature without uncanny dodge can't defend against and loses dex to AC. 2 seperate attacks. If the rogue was the one that initiated the surprise round they can even full attack with a ranged weapon against anyone acted in the first round and get all sneak attacks.How many feats and talents are necessary to make all that possible in 2 rounds? And what happens when you don't get a surprise round? Those don't happen all the time, you know... Especially considering you likely have two guys in medium/heavy armor walking around with you.
BTW, you can't full attack during a surprise round. You can't even move and then attack.
You can cast a spell, though.
PFSRD wrote:The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard OR move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
When did I say you get to full attack in a surprise round? The first round is not the surprise round. Thanks for the rules check. You all love your inferences and putting words in others mouths to win the internets.

Justin Sane |
I missed the +26/+26/+21 rogue build. Can somebody point it?
My perception vs your stealth to notice the ambush. Taking ten the build I posted has a 36 perception and a 41 vs traps. Can all the creatures ambushing me beat that with stealth?
How are you taking 10? Also, some monsters may be invisible, others might simply glide through the friggin' walls. Perception helps nothing there.
My suggestion was snap shot for surprise rounds. Automatically gives you a roll of 20 as long as you make a ranged attack.
Quicken spell like ability is a monster feat that PCs can take. At level 10 you can quicken a level 1 SLA. So that's 2 quickened vanishes a day.
None of those were present in your build. Maybe you want to update it?

Lemmy |

When did I say you get to full attack in a surprise round? Thanks for the rules check. You all love your inferences and putting words in others mouths to win the internets.
Ahem... You seem to be missing the point here...
BTW, you can't full attack during a surprise round. You can't even move and then attack.
So you are not getting any full attack on the surprise round unless you start combat adjacent to your opponent or use a ranged weapon (in which case you won't be getting many Sneak Attacks after the 1st one).
You can cast a spell, though.
Bards can still cast spells, though...
And if you're going to say the Rogue is invisible so he positions himself right next to the enemy, I'll say the Bard not only is invisible, but he also buffed the whole party.

Khrysaor |
Nicos wrote:I missed the +26/+26/+21 rogue build. Can somebody point it?Khrysaor wrote:My perception vs your stealth to notice the ambush. Taking ten the build I posted has a 36 perception and a 41 vs traps. Can all the creatures ambushing me beat that with stealth?How are you taking 10? Also, some monsters may be invisible, others might simply glide through the friggin' walls. Perception helps nothing there.
Quote:None of those were present in your build. Maybe you want to update it?My suggestion was snap shot for surprise rounds. Automatically gives you a roll of 20 as long as you make a ranged attack.
Quicken spell like ability is a monster feat that PCs can take. At level 10 you can quicken a level 1 SLA. So that's 2 quickened vanishes a day.
The rules for skills says you can always take 10 unless immediately threatened. There is no threat until I'm being attacked.
I never said this works for everything. Nothing works for everything. Everything has weaknesses. What does the bard do when a Balor is standing in front of them?
My post towards Imbicatus had nothing to do with my build. Why would I change anything. I listed 6 or 7 different ways of achieving sneak attack without needing to flank.

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Quicken spell like ability is a monster feat that PCs can take. At level 10 you can quicken a level 1 SLA. So that's 2 quickened vanishes a day.
I'm not here to argue builds (although I'm itching to make an Alch to throw into the ring for this), but this build now requires a monster feat? I'm not one to say players can't take them, but that's pretty intense for someone to pick who's starting the game, like this person seems to be.
First, you did the right thing taking a race with darkvision... oh, wait, you didn't.
Is the condescending tone really needed here? And again, is only a Rogue with darkvision viable? Would you say any other class NEEDS it?
The problem with the Rogue isn't that it can't be good, it's that it's not good out of the box. Everyone can throw around their system mastery builds, but builds from people who were just starting off would do better to show the basics of the class, what they're taking, and why.
A Rogue can contribute, but not at the level of its competitors, and not with the same level of system mastery, and that's the problem. I've had players play Rogues as their first character in my game, dual wielding gets picked up a lot, and they end up unable to hit. They're not going to think "Hm, maybe if I take this Rogue Talent tree along with this bestiary feat, I can get sneak more often." They're going to think "I'm not hitting, the Fighter's hitting, why can't I be more like them?"
And woe be to the first tine party with a Bard (I've seen it, the envy is almost palpable), which is the problem. Out of the box, the Rogue just doesn't do what it says on the box. Even the Fighter does most of what it claims (Rousing armies? Seriously?), or what you'd expect from a class with a name like that. The Rogue really doesn't.

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Currently I run a campaign with three rogues in it, level 17, mythic 3.
1st is Rogue 7, Shadow Dancer 10: range rogue, with high dex, ricochet, dimensional dervish, etc...
2nd is Rogue 9, Shadow Dancer 8: reach melee rogue with high str and charisma/intimidate (mythic makes these abilities crazy).
3rd is a Rogue 13, Shadow Dancer 4: the "weak one" of the group who often does great damage in melee due to a dancing keened rapier coupled with his own keen rapier attacks. Picked up "all critical hits confirm" from Harrow Deck of Many Things along the way.
All 3 have Mythic Mirror Dodge, Sniper Goggles (so cheap for being able to sit at range and deal precision damage at will), and other bangles... It is a crew of death you won't ever see coming... As the Queen from the CotCT has leant the hard way. They weren't mythic until after they drove her off the first time/finished the path.
While there may be some "better classes" out there, we have had tons of fun with these three musketeers.

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@Khrysaor:
Okay, here's the Bard build.
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +20,
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 24 (+7 Armor, +1 NA, +1 Deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck, +1 Insight)
HP 68 (10d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +17, Will +10
Special Defenses evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee wakizashi +14/+9 (1d6+7/15–20) or piranha strike +12/+7 (1d6+11/15-20)
Ranged shortbow +20/+15 (1d6+3/19-20x3) or Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11 (1d6+7/19-20x3) +6 to hit and +5 damage from Luck, Good Hope, and Haste so +22/+22/+22/+17 (1d6+12/19-20x3)
SPELLS (Concentration +13, Save DC 13+Spell Level)
4th: 1/day: Dimension Door, Invisibility (Greater)
3rd: 4/day: Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, 1 more,
2nd: 5/day: Acute Senses, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tongues, Versatile Weapon,
1st: 6/day: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Step, Grease, Vanish, Undetectable Alignment,
0th: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation,
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 24*, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16*
BAB +7; CMB +6; CMD 25
Feats Lingering Performance, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Craft Wondrous Item, Weapon Focus (Shortbow)
Skills: Acrobatics +20, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +27, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (Engineering) +11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +11, Knowledge (Local) +15, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Knowledge (Nobility) +11, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Perception +20, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +16,
Languages Common, Elven, Orcish,
Traits Vagabond Child, Fate's Favored
Special archaeologist's luck (7 rds/day, +3 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls), rogue talents (weapon training, combat trick), clever explorer +5 (Can take 10 on Disable Device under stress), bardic knowledge +5, lore master (1/day), jack of all trades,
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (1), potion of lesser restoration (1), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), wand of shield (50 charges), over 2k miscellaneous other consumables,
Other Gear Bane Baldric, Cloak of Resistance +3, Mithral Kikko +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Charisma +2, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attacks), +3 Shortbow w/ 120 arrows, Handy Haversack, Slippers of Spider Climbing, dagger, masterwork thief's tools
So, this build gets five attacks at 3d6+14 with Bane to your three at 1d6+16+5d6.
With those numbers, this build averages out at 139.944 or so. Yours averages out at 119.98 (partly because sneak attack doesn't double on a crit).
And mine provides Good Hope and Haste to his entire party while yours provides them nothing. Now the Bane Baldric is only 5 rounds, I freely admit...but the Boots are only 10 rounds, and even without Bane, this build's DPR is around 77, and that combined with the +3 to hit, +2 damage and extra attack to his entire party the whole time is a better investment of resources.
Oh, and that assumes you have Sneak Attack and Full Attacks the whole time, too. Which is...a trifle unlikely, let's say. It assumes nothing on the Bard's part but existing and having two rounds to buff (and the two rounds is assumed by your build as well).
Outside combat, you have a slightly higher Perception just walking around...but the Bard can manage a +40 when he feels like it, equal or around equal in every possible skill (and has all the Knowledge skills to boot), vastly better saves while in a fight (all the listed ones get +5, remember) and slightly better ones even outside it.
And before you complain that it's an archer build...part of the issue with Rogues is that they can't do good archer builds. Besides, I was bored of melee. A melee version id doable, if a trifle more annoying to manage.
Oh, and your build is costing at least 15gp per battle. this build costs more like 1 or 2.

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Justin Sane wrote:Nicos wrote:I missed the +26/+26/+21 rogue build. Can somebody point it?It is not that build way over the wbl?
EDIT: Ok, crafting, I see it now.
Which isn't really proving anything about rogues. You can make a commoner with crafting, push way over WBL, and still be somewhat effective.

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@Khrysaor:
Just check this thread, made by avid Rogue fans.
Yeah. I never got why people think the class needs "fixing". I never played a rogue that I thought was broke because it couldn't cast magic like a bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, witch... etc... I never complained when someone in the group had a skill higher than mine (ahem, bard INT based skills). I never complained that I didn't hit things as often as the fighter (though, often I did because I either got us both flanking bonus or they were left flat footed for me after one attack). I just kept on playing my CHARACTER.

Justin Sane |
The rules for skills says you can always take 10 unless immediately threatened. There is no threat until I'm being attacked.I'm... pretty sure that's not how it works.
I never said this works for everything. Nothing works for everything. Everything has weaknesses.The Bard can get See Invisibility, easily. Everything has weaknesses, true. The Rogue just has lots of glaring ones.
What does the bard do when a Balor is standing in front of them?Dimension Door?
My post towards Imbicatus had nothing to do with my build. Why would I change anything. I listed 6 or 7 different ways of achieving sneak attack without needing to flank.
So put your money where your mouth is. Whip up your best Rogue build. We'll see how it matches up to a Bard. Otherwise you're just making meaningless noise.

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blackbloodtroll wrote:Yeah. I never got why people think the class needs "fixing". I never played a rogue that I thought was broke because it couldn't cast magic like a bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, witch... etc... I never complained when someone in the group had a skill higher than mine (ahem, bard INT based skills). I never complained that I didn't hit things as often as the fighter (though, often I did because I either got us both flanking bonus or they were left flat footed for me after one attack). I just kept on playing my CHARACTER.@Khrysaor:
Just check this thread, made by avid Rogue fans.
If you enjoy playing a character is hopelessly outclassed by everyone in the party, that's fine. But most people play this game to be heroes, not mascots.

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So put your money where your mouth is. Whip up your best Rogue build. We'll see how it matches up to a Bard. Otherwise you're just making meaningless noise.
and no doubt, your Bard will get magic... ROGUES AREN'T SPELL CASTERS. Why do people keep trying to compare them? Put your best Bard up against my level 20 Wizard and his 800,000/25,000 = 32 wishes... Oh? The Bard loses? What a shocker!

Justin Sane |
Justin Sane wrote:So put your money where your mouth is. Whip up your best Rogue build. We'll see how it matches up to a Bard. Otherwise you're just making meaningless noise.and no doubt, your Bard will get magic... ROGUES AREN'T SPELL CASTERS. Why do people keep trying to compare them? Put your best Bard up against my level 20 Wizard and his 800,000/25,000 = 32 wishes... Oh? The Bard loses? What a shocker!
If it was a contest about who got the most wishes, yeah, I'll put my money on the Wizard, too. Considering it's not...

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If I really insist on using CWI shenanigans?! You're the one that picked the build claiming you were better than a rogue using those CWI shenanigans. This was your choice not mine.
Actually, I suggested that we not do that. You never responded...despite responding to other parts of that post.
And even in my first post on the topic I suggested reading the thread I linked (which I've got like 4 builds in, the last couple sans CWI) not the specific post. I probably should've linked one of those later non-CWI ones, but was in a hurry. I did apologize for that...in the same post I mentioned skipping CWI.
That build on mine takes one round tops or none if the reduce person has been up for a bit since it's 10 minutes. Same as you putting up any minute per level buff. The wand action takes no action of mine. The familiar does it just fine.
Good Hope is also 10 minutes. And fine, the build I just posted takes one round longer to prep. Noted.
Your version needs haste to keep up with attacks. That requires the rogue build a free action when a full attack is available.
Sure. But his spells hit the whole party...which the boots quite definitively do not. With even one more weapon using character and two rounds of combat total, the group version is almost certainly better.
You can't make a claim, post a build, then complain when someone proves you wrong.
That's...really not what happened there.