One thing I think they are really dragging into the ground is this 'need for speed' concept. It's just... inconsistent.
Barry is ALREADY able to run fast enough to travel through Time... and done it a couple of times already. THAT should be considered the top end of speed.... What the heck is he aiming for now?
If breaking the Time barrier is Speed X.... then how are they supposed to legitimately make Zoom and Trajectory X+3 or whatever?
It's like when they used to play with the Speed Force sucking people in... Or the need to make Wally 'faster then Barry' when Silver Age Barry quite frequently hit lightspeed and broke time and dimensions... anything that can't do that... will always be 'slower'.
I'd love to see them focus more on using the speed he has for some new and creative ways then always pushing for MORE speed. I prefer seeing the whirlwinds or even that newly made up lightning toss.
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In the intro, he claims to be the fastest man alive.
EVERY other character with superspeed on the show so far has been faster than him.
But yeah, I agree, the whole "MUST GET FASTUR!!!!" thing is getting old, considering that they've pretty much been on that kick since the pilot.
I think the Time Travel thing is a little more than just "Reach Speed X" In two cases it's been a life and death moment of fear and adrenaline, in the other it was a carefully controlled experiment with help from a guy from the future. There is a mental component to it.
Honestly Barry hasn't really investigated the Speed Force beyond "Run Fast" In the Comics Wally learned a lot about it and what he could do with it during his time as the Flash.
The scientist part of him really needs to start investigating what he is really tapping into.
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I think part of the problem with the whole "must go faster" plot is the reliance on having the Big Bad be a speedster. In order to make the Big Bad be a threat, they've felt the need to make them faster. Granted, this also shows a lack of imagination on the part of the writers. Why not just have a speedster who can perform more "speed tricks".
Ultimately, however, they need to vary it up some more. I recall seeing/hearing a rumor that Grodd would be the Big Bad for season 3 - that would be a step in the right direction. I'd love to see Kadabra brought in one season - advanced tech, super smart, and completely psycho!
In the intro, he claims to be the fastest man alive.
EVERY other character with superspeed on the show so far has been faster than him.
I'm old and forgetful. Jay (as Jay) was faster than Barry?
More speedsters are coming, but so far isn't it just Thawne, Jay/Zoom* and Trajectory?
*still not sure how many people to count this as, given the possibility of two Jay Garricks and two Hunter Zolomons in the mix.
Given that Jay is Zoom, and Zoom is faster than Barry, then yes, I'd say that Jay is faster than Barry.
Thawne was faster than Barry (at least current Barry) regardless of which body he was living in, his original or Wells'.
Trajectory was faster...in fact, while they never made a direct comparison, just by her comparison to Barry, she seemed faster than Thawne and Zoom as well.
Kal is correct. If it were a simple matter of being fast enough to be in two places in once, there wouldn't be a corpse lying in Zoom's lair.
Except the creators have confirmed that the guy that spent all the time with Team Flash, that dated Caitlin, etc. IS Zoom.
Except the creators have confirmed that the guy that spent all the time with Team Flash, that dated Caitlin, etc. IS Zoom.
Citation?
Because that makes no sense. It would mean Jay-costumed-as-Zoom killed Zoom-masquerading-as-Jay by reaching through the portal. So are we back to time travel again? Future Jay/Zoom kills his past self and says "Well, that's a complication?" Or do we have to start pulling in more copies of Jay from Earths 3 through 52?
Making Zoom and Jay the same person doesn't explain who the man in the iron mask is; and it would seem to make the introduction of E-1 Hunter Zolomon completely pointless.
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Except the creators have confirmed that the guy that spent all the time with Team Flash, that dated Caitlin, etc. IS Zoom.Citation?
Because that makes no sense. It would mean Jay-costumed-as-Zoom killed Zoom-masquerading-as-Jay by reaching through the portal. So are we back to time travel again? Future Jay/Zoom kills his past self and says "Well, that's a complication?" Or do we have to start pulling in more copies of Jay from Earths 3 through 52?
Making Zoom and Jay the same person doesn't explain who the man in the iron mask is; and it would seem to make the introduction of E-1 Hunter Zolomon completely pointless.
The only way it could work (without creating a major temporal snafu) was if the Jay romancing Caitlin and killed by Zoom is actually a future version of Zoom himself. If Barry and company defeat Zoom, strip him of his powers, and send him back through time/space, he could end up as just Jay on Earth 1. Then he romances Caitlin to get her help in recreating the Velocity 9 formula which gave him his speed. If that's how they're going to roll, then maybe the guy in the iron mask back on Earth 2 is the original creator of Velocity-9.
The only way it could work (without creating a major temporal snafu) was if the Jay romancing Caitlin and killed by Zoom is actually a future version of Zoom himself. If Barry and company defeat Zoom, strip him of his powers, and send him back through time/space, he could end up as just Jay on Earth 1. Then he romances Caitlin to get her help in recreating the Velocity 9 formula which gave him his speed. If that's how they're going to roll, then maybe the guy in the iron mask back on Earth 2 is the original creator of Velocity-9.
But if Iron Mask is just some guy who created V9, why does his face need to be hidden from viewers?
I poked around on the web and ran across someone's notion that Zoom is future Jay Garrick, whose progressive cell degeneration prompted him to come back in time to tap his past body for healthy cells as a stopgap until a more permanent cure could be found. He had to come back masked and with a disguised voice, so that his past self wouldn't recognize his future self and create problems with his personal timeline.
This allows Zoom to "impersonate" a less-than-healthy Jay when on E1, because he is a less than healthy Jay. Iron Mask, like Zoom, is E2 Jay Garrick. There's no Hunter Zolomon on E2, just like Caitlin was told.
I'm not sure I buy this, because parts of it sound too much like Thawne/Wells' story, and because it would have been much simpler to establish that E1 Jay had died an accidental death some time before the universes connected, than to show him as Hunter Zolomon, making him the only E1 person to date who has a different name than his E2 counterpart and at the same time labelling him as irrevant.
Also, I'd have to go back and watch a whole season's worth of episodes to see if its possible to show that the Jay we've known and Zoom can't have been the same person, but it seems like there would have been some very rapid costume changes needed, too fast for even Barry to see...and generating no rush of air and no blue lightning. OTOH, I guess we saw exactly that when Reverse Flash apparently killed Wells using the speed trick of being in two places at once.
Arrrgh!
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Well, the Wells vs. Reverse Flash scene in Season 1 involved a holographic Reverse Flash (which Cisco later discovered). Or was there a different scene that I'm forgetting?
When Cisco discovered the the Holographic reverse flash and was killed by Wells, Wells showed the trick that by moving very fast he could appear to be in two places at once.
Imabicatus,
Not to mention he's more of a time manipulator than an actual speedster.
Another thing I wish they'd settle on... The flash ring.
They've made it a point to comment on it, and how Cisco is trying to figure out how the costumes can fit in it... It's time to just DO it.
I'm actually a little annoyed how quickly Barry can get into costume and be ready to fight the guy across town... when his costume's hanging up in STAR labs.
(Also while apparently whining that he's not fast enough... )
Seriously that's just a little loophole that I'd like closed up. If he can get all the way across town, change, and be right back where he was 1/2 second ago... then yeah, he's breaking some speed barriers there.
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I've only watched a handful of Supergirl episodes but I caught this week's because it was the Flash crossover.
It was... disappointing. Barry was basically made of idiotball this time.
meh, he made one mistake. It's not like he's a tactical genius on his own show. That he was a little off his game when he's accidentally thrown in to another world (and is a bit starstruck at working with his first alien) doesn't bother me.
It seemed like they did a lot of adlibbing.
And not in a good way.
Hey! That's called consistency! Flash would break character if he didn't act like a moron during combat scenes!
He had difficulty fighting Captain Cold and Heatwave, for Rao's sake!
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Barry has about a dozen idiot balls surgically implanted within him.
Well....interesting change to the timeline
I don't entierly disapprouve but it does kind of reinforce the idea that Barry carries and idiot ball in his suit at all times.
Also I think we now have an idea what Barry was wearing in the Supergirl episode.
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Everybody keeps talking about Barry carrying the idiot ball here...and I'm wondering if you guys paid attention to the dialogue.
Paraphrasing:
Barry: "Maybe overloading her will work!"
Everyone else: "Yes! That might do it! We had this super capacitor thingy we tried to do that with last time but it's gone now! And we don't have time to build it!"
Barry: *Fires lightning bolt*
When someone proposes an idea and everyone else around them either says "Yeah that's plausible" or has no comment on it, that means they're misinformed, not an idiot.
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3X2(9YZ)4A FTW!
Also, a nice tidy way of moving Piper to the side of the angels.
Everybody keeps talking about Barry carrying the idiot ball here...and I'm wondering if you guys paid attention to the dialogue.
Paraphrasing:
Barry: "Maybe overloading her will work!"
Everyone else: "Yes! That might do it! We had this super capacitor thingy we tried to do that with last time but it's gone now! And we don't have time to build it!"
Barry: *Fires lightning bolt*
When someone proposes an idea and everyone else around them either says "Yeah that's plausible" or has no comment on it, that means they're misinformed, not an idiot.
Well... I don't watch the Supergirl series, so I can't comment on that... But it's very consistent with the Flash series for Barry to act like an idiot in combat.
The writers just aren't good at coming up with challenges for super-fast characters, so they either give the enemy super-speed or simply make Barry dumber than a rock for the duration of combat.
Occasionally they come up with a nice idea, but those occasions are sadly the exception, not the rule.
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Is it a coincidence that the Wraith looked a heck of a lot like Zoom?
Dose it only hunt time travelling Speedsters?
It's also fast enough to catch a Speedster
Here is a wierd theory. What if the Wraith is Thawn, or some remenant of him after he got erased from time.
Regardless it does provide us with an handy "this is why you don't use time travel to fix every little mistake"
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Stoopid time travel.....
I loved seeing the speed formula, but I'm not so crazy about Barry using Tachyon manipulation. Maybe that'll somehow be involved in the Crisis of Multiple Jays.
Once again, the show runners pull from the Wally West era and make Piper an ally. Interesting.
Did anyone else catch the preview for next week. I'll have to go back and watch it again, but it sounds like they threw out the Hunter Zolomon name. So maybe Zoom is, in fact, Zolomon.
Is it a coincidence that the Wraith looked a heck of a lot like Zoom?
Time wraiths are something the showrunners made up, but the visual was inspired by the Black Flash, an entity that functions as Death for speedsters in the DC universe. Wally West outran it once.
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Best line from the crossover
Stoopid time travel.....
** spoiler omitted **
Seriously. Its amazing how much he ignores all advice about interacting with other worlds/timelines.
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Extended Promo for next week's "Versus Zoom" episode
From this preview, they call Zoom Hunter Zolomon. Considering we've already (supposedly) seen Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon (whom Jay showed to Caitlin, thinking it was Earth-1 Jay, but with an adopted name), I'm wondering if they are going the route of Zoom/Hunter being the evil twin of Earth-2 Jay.
If that's the case, then it would mean Jay/Hunter were twins on Earth-1 as well. So what happened to the real Earth-1 Jay? Did he die at birth? Just die young? Is he the man in the iron mask, captured by Zoom in hopes of being able to feed off him, as he did with Jay-2, but then finding out Jay-1 didn't have speed force?
Or, is Zoom actually Hunter Zolomon of Earth-1? I don't think this makes much sense, because it wouldn't make sense for him to be from Earth-1, but show up first on Earth-2.
No, I think it more likely Zoom is Hunter-2. He was a convicted murderer. From the promo it looks like they might have tried to execute him via electric chair - probably the night the particle accelerator exploded - BOOM! Zoom is born. He started taking the V-formula to go faster, and now has to steal speed to keep from dissipating.
Either way, it looks like we'll find out next week.
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Although, after watching the promo yet again, I did notice a screen image they showed of his arrest and mugshot. The arrest photo included on the front page of the newspaper - The Central City Picture News. That is the Earth-1 newspaper. Not sure if it's the same paper on Earth-2.
Maybe he is Hunter-1. That would beg several questions, however. Why didn't Barry or Joe recognize him? Being police, you'd think they would have known about the case. Also, if he did gain his powers while being executed on the night of the particle accelerator explosion on Earth-1, why did he make his first known appearance on Earth-2? Lastly, who would that make the man in the iron mask? Maybe he's someone who knows the speed formula, can speak it to gain speed, but wouldn't give it to Zoom. This might explain Zoom's starting to use V-formula to gain more speed.
Everybody keeps talking about Barry carrying the idiot ball here...and I'm wondering if you guys paid attention to the dialogue.
Paraphrasing:
Barry: "Maybe overloading her will work!"
Everyone else: "Yes! That might do it! We had this super capacitor thingy we tried to do that with last time but it's gone now! And we don't have time to build it!"
Barry: *Fires lightning bolt*
When someone proposes an idea and everyone else around them either says "Yeah that's plausible" or has no comment on it, that means they're misinformed, not an idiot.
Yep. That was my thought too. This is certainly not the FIRST electrical inspired villain and I KNOW I've seen 'Overload it with too much power' in the past.
Especially when 1)punching electricity will probably REALLY hurt.... and 2) His only other ranged attack is wind blast with limited use there.
I suppose he could have air vortexed her unconscious... So yeah, taking down lightning lady with more lightning before she could fry anyone else with his most powerful attack was a valid theory... Didn't work, but still valid.
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The air vortex didn't seem to do much to her anyway, so even as a first resort it wouldn't have worked.
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I still love the show, but this is getting kind of annoying….
And now Wally is a prisoner. Is Man in the Iron Mask Earth-2 Wally? Maybe he was Kid Flash? I’m almost done trying to guess, because whatever the answer is will probably be annoying.
Time remnant? I convinced him to let me murder him? Seriously? However, if the plan all along was to kill his “time remnant”, then why (right after it happened), did Zoom talk about the death creating complications?
You know what? I’m just going to stand over here and wait for the space-time continuum to collapse upon itself.
Damn, those Flash villains just love to kidnap Caitlin. Maybe Zoom will try and convert her into Killer Frost.
To be fair Zoom is crazy. The whole "I convinced him to let me kill him" is probably all in his own head
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Zoom's also a liar - he's lied a bunch so far, so the "I convinced him to let me kill him" could be just another lie, since he did earlier say to himself when he killed him that it could create complications, which was probably a lot closer to the truth.
I'm a bit confused on the Earth-2 flash Jay Garrick character though. Did they never exist, and were always Zoom just playing at being a hero so he could crush Earth-2's hopes by "beating" himself? Is Jay simply a made up name or is there a real Jay somewhere? If there was never a real Jay, that would explain why there's no Earth-1 version of him.
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My family loves The Flash, but last night's episode was a big disappointment, especially after so much time off.
And is it just me, or is "depower the only guy who may be able to stop the monster" not an acceptable way to get Wally back? Who's to stop Zoom from killing Wally and a bunch of other innocent people once he has Barry's speed? I was really hoping for a Superman II-style trick where the team stole Zoom's speed for Flash rather than the other way around.
Going forward, haven't we already had a couple of episodes of "Barry's lost his speed and doesn't know how to cope?" Do we really have to see Depressed!Barry again? He's not much fun. That goes double for Mopey!Caitlin, who really needs to be given something to do other than be abused romantically and taken hostage.
I really hope they can turn this around before the season finale. I don't want The Flash to go the way of Legends of Tomorrow, which I quit watching in disgust at how incompetent the heroes are.
Barry needs to work on learning to use some of the peripheral abilities of being a speedster, rather than just his relentless focus on "MUST RUN FASTA!!!"
My family loves The Flash, but last night's episode was a big disappointment, especially after so much time off. ** spoiler omitted **
I really hope they can turn this around before the season finale. I don't want The Flash to go the way of Legends of Tomorrow, which I quit watching in disgust at how incompetent the heroes are.
Agreed.
The whole time, I was thinking: "What is their plan?" I know that Barry doesn't like to kill, but what is the plan? You can't put Zoom in jail--he can just phase through walls. Now, if he can't phase through the containment unit for some reason, why not beat him unconscious, then throw him in the containment unit, THEN gloat. Or, just kill him. He's a serial killer speedster. You can't redeem him and what is the point of keeping him alive?
Then I watch the resolution and it is laughable. Zoom turns over Wally first, and they all just sit there and BS with him while Wells makes the serum? WTF? Here, take my speed. "It's the only way."
Um, how about when you had Zoom beat (temporarily) you inject him with the serum that will take away his speed? Done.
The plan (or lack thereof) to beat Zoom was bad enough, but then when he negotiates with them and steals Caitlin instead of murdering them all (except Cisco--he'd definitely kidnap him to force him to open breaches to other worlds) just made no sense. I was not pleased with the writing in this episode. Hell, they could've had Ollie run it and shoot Zoom while they were all debating what to do. Even that would've been better.