I think it would have been cool if they used Reverb's goggles to identify the alternate frequency so that Cisco could tell Barry how he needed to change what he was doing to go through the cell.
I was disappointed that Barry couldn't figure out that he could vibrate through the cell until Zoom did it. It's like he forgot he could do that. Also disappointed that none of the cast even acknowledged the man in the iron mask except for Barry. Not even a "who is he?" when they showed up.
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Hama:
** spoiler omitted **
I don't think that the writers would know how to do a relationship that doesn't have those hangups.
I think it would have been cool if they used Reverb's goggles to identify the alternate frequency so that Cisco could tell Barry how he needed to change what he was doing to go through the cell.
I agree. Or use it to break the glass. Cisco could use a win right now.
Ok... we're starting to get TOO many characters here... and too few.
Barry 1, Flash
Barry 2, Seen with Zoom and man in mask...
Jay 1, Non-powered called Hunter...
Jay 2, on earth 1 occasionally without powers...
Man in mask-2... locked up on Earth 2...
Now if he's Jay.... then we've got too many Jays, If he's Hunter... we've already seen both Hunters.. He's not a Barry... He's not the same actor as Wally..
As fast as Zoom is, he isn't bouncing back and forth from E1 and E2 with the only portal being monitored... WHILE Jay is fighting Geomancer...
So frustratingly most of our suspects are all marked off the list.
My biggest question is WHY THAT costume. It's a blatant copy of Barry's costume, coming from an Earth that HAD no Barry-Flash... I really can't help but think that's some kind of clue. The most I see of this, the more I think Zoom is NOT native to E2 like it was explained... but is actually something from E1...
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I believe
The "Jay" that has been running around without speed? Few possibilities.
1. Clone.
2. Hunter Zolomon aka twin of Jay.
3. "The Rival"
Seriously though, Zoom feels like Savitar.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The Jay we've been seeing could also be any character that can shapeshift or has a power to disguise themselves with illusions, etc. I don't know DC enough to know who this could be from the Flash's rogue's gallery, but if the plan is to con team Flash into creating a working velocity formula, you don't need a speedster at all to do that. (Unless velocity only works on someone who already is a speedster.)
Well... If Zoom and Iron-Mask are both "Jay", That'd fit perfectly for two sets of twins, each set from a different earth. Hmmm... It could work...
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Who is Zoom?
I'm still leaning towards Henry Allen...I think the Stuff with Jay and the Man in the Iron Mask has nothing to do with Zoom's identity, and might simply be setting up Zolomon as the big bad for season 3.
I'm still leaning towards Henry Allen...I think the Stuff with Jay and the Man in the Iron Mask has nothing to do with Zoom's identity, and might simply be setting up Zolomon as the big bad for season 3.
I'm pretty sure they said the Big Bad is actually Grodd...
I believe
Spoiler:the Iron Mask is Jay.The "Jay" that has been running around without speed? Few possibilities.
1. Clone.
2. Hunter Zolomon aka twin of Jay.
3. "The Rival"Seriously though, Zoom feels like Savitar.
Who is Zoom?Spoiler:Come on. It has to be Earth 3 Wally West. It's the only logical thing I can think of. The whole mask thing, I'm positive is the ORIGINAL Jay Garrick from Earth-2 Justice Society. The other guy from Earth-2 is a clone that Zoom fed off and keeps in the dark because he needs Speed Force and getting that Jayclone to be a guinea pig for Velocity 9 is the best way to do that when he runs out of Speed Force guys to feed on.
a) Earth 2's Hunter Zolomon
b) A clone of Jay Garrick
Either Zolomon attempting to replicate Jay's powers or a clone of Jay could have the cellular degeneration problem. And either would explain why they haven't been forthcoming to the Team Flash. Heck, even Zoom could be another Jay clone who discovered that the Speed Force is the only thing that stops his cellular decay. If that's the case, then it isn't Velocity 9 healing the other/"visitor" Jay's cells, but the Speed Force, and Velocity 9 is just the catalyst to access it. And getting Earth 1's Team Flash to perfect V9 is the key that Zoom needs to stop feeding on Flashes and directly access the Speed Force.
But I think it's even a better fit that Zoom is Savitar, who is using the Jay clone/Zolomon as a guinea pig in his quest to perfect his (Zoom's) ability to access the Speed Force. And before this is over, I'm thinking, hoping, Harry's daughter Jessie ends up injected with V9 too.
Edit: Could Harry's Jessie already have the potential to become a speedster? Zoom could have kidnapped her to experiment on next after all his Jays/Zolomons/clones burnout/die off.
I think a lot of these theories could be really REALLY lame if they actual go that route. It will probably even cost them viewers if they go TOO far.
So far we've already been trying to wrap our heads around multiple universes and dopplegangers... but to take clones and super secret twins of those dopplegangers?
When does it go to far?
I've seen Flash reach a LOT of mainstream viewers who are NOT comic fans who are actually struggling this season, but twins and clones?
On one level... it's just dumb. The kind of cheesy soap opera dumb that stories have tried to get away with. I know it was done in the comics... but honestly, secret twin was dumb there too...
On a second level... It REALLY feels like CHEATING. It's the kind of Scooby doo mystery where you're given 5 suspects, then the villain turned out to be someone COMPLETLEY different and the audience was never given the clues.
Had there been ANY talk in either of the earths about clones.. then maybe. But to pull clones or twins out of a hat in the 11th hour? That'll be really lame.
phantom,
Then how else do you explain the fact that Zoom AND Jay are not the same person?
phantom,
Then how else do you explain the fact that Zoom AND Jay are not the same person?
I got nuthin'.
There's some wild and crazy stuff going on right now, and they very well MAY pull the cloned twin card and disappoint me greatly. Agents of Shield did that with the Inhumans
I just hope they don't.
Personally, I'm kind of hoping for Henry Allen, which may have been teased just a little by referencing the 90's show when they jumped worlds, or perhaps an E2 Eobard Thawne... Though he's getting a little played out too.
Seriously though...
Seriously though...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm showing Velocity 9 as not appearing until 1988 and having ties to Vandal Savage and inertia... unless there was some retcons that I'm not seeing recorded that tried to tie it into Rival's origin. http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Velocity_9
Again, things could have changed... I've been out of things since nu52...
Granted, Wikipedia isn't the most respected source, still, there is this Reverse-flash
The Rival and 'Velocity 9' are listed as first appearing in Feb 1949.
The info on Hunter Zolomon is...interesting.
Frankly, given that, if Jay is Zoom, he could very well have been in multiple places at the same time and, given the preview
Spiral,
I don't see how Jay could be in two places at once. No one, not even Superman, could pull that off without help. So I really sincerely doubt Jay = Zoom.
Jay = clone...more believeable.
Also when did Inhumans do that with clones? Last I checked it wasn't clones so much as an attempt to get around Multiple Man by a) making him a her and b) limited number that worked more on will than on being hit a certain way.
Spiral,
I don't see how Jay could be in two places at once. No one, not even Superman, could pull that off without help. So I really sincerely doubt Jay = Zoom.
Jay = clone...more believeable.
Also when did Inhumans do that with clones? Last I checked it wasn't clones so much as an attempt to get around Multiple Man by a) making him a her and b) limited number that worked more on will than on being hit a certain way.
Nooo... I didn't mean that Marvel did clones with Inhumans. What I meant was everyone guessed that Skye was an inhuman and inhumans were going to be the major plot point and dominate the series...
Which I REALLY hoped they wouldn't... and was sorely disappointed when that's exactly what they did.
So while yes, I think clones and twins AND dopplegangers are bit much for ONE series... That in no way means that they WON'T go that route...
Phantom,
Considering they (Marvel) wanted to bring in an under-used Marvel character for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (one that wasn't related to Fury, the Howling Commandos or even just Cap's known associates) using Inhumans was a safe way to give us Daisy Johnson without upsetting Fox and the whole 'We own Mutants.'
I'm not disappointed since I prefer the use Inhumans over Mutants, especially since once you start doing that, along come the X-men and then before long, world shattering annihilation and/or more timelines/alternate histories/parallel worlds, than you can shake a stick at. With the limited Inhuman presence, we get more cosmic marvel...at least limited since there's no Skrulls or Sha'ir. But still!
Anyways I'm sorry you feel this way, but honestly, logically, the clone thing is the thing that makes the most sense.
I'm still sticking with the "Zoom is from a different parallel universe entirely" idea. He might be Jay(/Hunter) or Barry or Barry's Dad or whoever else from Earth-3(/4/5/6) for all we know.
...Or he could be Hunter Zolomon (the one from Earth-1). It very well could be they tossed that out there assuming (apparently rightfully) that everyone would go "That's too obvious!" and dismiss it out of hand.
These are the ones that make the most sense without involving undue amounts of tweests.
Sun,
Tweests are how writers get their kicks. Just ask George RR Martin.
Maybe, but I'd hope they'd know well enough that a show can very easily jump the shark when you start tossing those things in, especially early on in a run.
Time travel and parallel universes are already risky business. Doubling down just seems like a bad idea right now.
I think they left shark jumping at the door when they introduced King Shark this season, Sun...
Hey, he never jumped.
Choked a b+#&~, yes. But never jumped, or was jumped over. =)
Sun,
Just wait until Tuesday. There might be jumping involved there.
Well... We've seen the doppelganger of pretty much everyone in the cast, except Wally, who is a self-proclaimed "speed-addict"... And Zoom's powers seem to work very similarly to how Wally's powers work in the comics...
So Zoom might be Earth-2 Wally.
Thank you Lemmy.
2,500 XP for you! :)
He seems a little too tall, buff, and generally manly to be Wally.
I'd be hard-pressed to take anyone seriously any more if they were all beat up by Joe's rebellious teenage kid.
Thank you Lemmy.
2,500 XP for you! :)
Awesome! A little more and I might become level up to Expert 3!
He seems a little too tall, buff, and generally manly to be Wally.
Well... He also has claws and demon-like eyes, so clearly his appearance isn't very indicative of him being anyone in the cast. :P
Sun,
Maybe he's the Wally West of the Future in Earth-2. Maybe.
Lemmy,
Sadly you need more encounters before that happens.
Phantom,
Considering they (Marvel) wanted to bring in an under-used Marvel character for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (one that wasn't related to Fury, the Howling Commandos or even just Cap's known associates) using Inhumans was a safe way to give us Daisy Johnson without upsetting Fox and the whole 'We own Mutants.'
Yeah, I've never liked the Inhumans as characters or... much of anything. Mutants have a little more brand recognition, but I think MCU could get along without either for some time. Add in that they have their own movie coming, so any of the really RECOGNIZABLE inhumans won't be used for a couple years... and I was very Blah to the whole rumor.
As for Quake.. She wasn't even an inhuman in the comics, so that retcon wasn't really NEEDED either...
I guess I really liked AoS the most when it was 'average/mortal' agents dealing with the superpowered crap that everyone else missed. Kind of like the A-team vs. Brotherhood of evil mutants... They're just so behind the 8 ball... that the fact that they still kick butt means so much more. Adding superpowers to the team takes something away from that.
Phantom,
Not sure that's true that AoS or S.H.I.E.L.D. in general never used powered agents. They just relied on humans more because generally they didn't go crazy and kill bunches of people.
Plus I loved Quake. I still do, even if she's now Inhuman.
Phantom,
Not sure that's true that AoS or S.H.I.E.L.D. in general never used powered agents. They just relied on humans more because generally they didn't go crazy and kill bunches of people.
Plus I loved Quake. I still do, even if she's now Inhuman.
Pretty sure that was the point of the Avengers Initiative. That Fury was setting up a team to do what normal people couldn't...
but with Fury who knows ;)
I know the comic version LOOOOOVED some superheroes running around giving him deniablitiy. in MCU? I don't remember any powers running around in season one... except maybe Deathlok, but he was pretty much against them for that season.
I just like to rout for the underdogs ;)
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Seriously though...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm showing Velocity 9 as not appearing until 1988 and having ties to Vandal Savage and inertia... unless there was some retcons that I'm not seeing recorded that tried to tie it into Rival's origin. http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Velocity_9
Again, things could have changed... I've been out of things since nu52...
I think this was part of a retcon, with the first Velocity 9 story published in Wally West Flash, back in the late 80s. Clariss (and others, such as Johnny Quick of the Crime Syndicate), always used chemical formulas to induce speed powers, and they later just changed it to say they were all juicing on V-9, and Vandal Savage appropriated the formula in his battles against Wally.
But I'm loving this Rival idea. I had nearly forgotten about him.
Spiral,
I don't see how Jay could be in two places at once. No one, not even Superman, could pull that off without help. So I really sincerely doubt Jay = Zoom.
Jay = clone...more believeable.
The point of Hunter Zoloman/Reverse-Flash/Professor Zoom was that he *wasn't* a speedster. He was 'unstuck in time', meaning he could go anywhere/when and be anywhere/when, giving him the appearance of being a speedster. That ability, coupled with the various Velocity #x formulas, would explain Jay/Zoom being in the same place at the same time.
Frankly, though, I was kinda hoping that we wouldn't have the whole "I'm really someone else who somehow looks like one of the good guys" bit this season.
I've come up with a different theory on Zoom's identity, though, that makes...some minor sense, though I'm not real sure of the details.
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Here is my theory... (worth nothing and 9/10 wrong)
- Man in the Iron Mask is Jay Garrick
- 'Jay' who has been working with the STARS team is Hunter Zolomon / twin brother of Jay Garrick from Earth 2 who has coveted his speed and has been working on the Velocity formula to match him.
- Zoom is ALSO Hunter Zolomon from Earth 2 and has traveled back in time to assure that his younger self gets his speed faster and stops Jay from being a powerful opponent in the future.
Yeah I'm aware that kinda means that Zoom is just Earth 2's Reverse Flash... I'm also probably missing an obvious conflict somewhere.
I'd just like one of the supposed geniuses on the S.T.A.R. Labs team to address their complete lack of building security. Jay Garrick walking in on them I can see. They had a rift in the basement. Hard to fault them for that one. Still, how about some locks on the doors? Security cameras? Warning alarms? Personnel hired to keep people out? Something?
Worst secret lair ever. (Arrow comes in a close second.)
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Well, the STAR Labs crew has an excuse for the last bit.
It's not a secret lair. Mostly because it's not secret. It's a pretty well known building, and it's an open secret that the Flash hangs out there.
Why they don't have a proximity alarm like Earth-2 STAR Labs...dunno.
Re tonight's episode....now THAT was a twist.
On the up side, I did like how each group learned about their Earth-2 doppelgangers...snd Caitlin's reaction. And, I suspect if she learns how Ronnie-2 died she's going to be even more determined to END Zoom.
Anything involving clones is 100% speculation. There is nothing in the show -- or in the larger Arrowverse -- to suggest cloning is a thing.
Zoom Jay is Earth-2 Zoloman.
Dead Jay is Earth-2 Jay Garrick, as he always said.
Mask Jay is Earth-1 Jay Garrick, who Zoom captured early on.
and Earth-1 Hunter Zoloman is the guy Jay pointed out to Caitlin. He didn't investigate thoroughly enough when he got to Earth-1, and incorrectly believed that there was no Jay Garrick on Earth-1, only H.Z. Or maybe Zoom somehow erased all records of Earth-1 Jay Garrick when he whisked him off to Earth-2. (Still, you'd think someone would have missed him.)
Now that I write it all out, it doesn't sound right, but I can't come up with anything better.
Anything involving clones is 100% speculation. There is nothing in the show -- or in the larger Arrowverse -- to suggest cloning is a thing.
** spoiler omitted **
I haven't been able to locate the episode (I think it was the one with Blackout?) where Wells/Thawne listed the (15?) people who 'died' as a result of the particle accelerator explosion. I could swear that he listed Jay Garrick as one of them.
Of course, Wells/Thawne could simply have believed Jay Garrick dead because he couldn't find him.
Options
1: Earth-1 Jay Garrick IS Hunter Zoloman, no twins/brothers. The dead Jay/Flash is Earth-2's, Zoom & Mask-Jay from yet other Earths. Note that Zoom had Frost/Storm tracking down 'breachers' so there were people traveling from one Earth to another, not necessarily E-1 & E-2.
2: Two sets of twins; E-1 Jay was somehow sent to E-2; E-2 Jay & Hunter did the jealous/evil twin bit and Hunter developed speed formulas to gain the speed he 'should' have had or Jay offered to help his twin by developing the speed formula and was back-stabbed. Dead Jay is E-1 Jay, lab rat for Zoom, who hoped to escape home and become the hero he was on E-2. E-2 Jay could even have started working on the formula to help his other-worldly twin. In that case E-1 Hunter is just a red herring.
3: Something I haven't though of yet that is the reason the writers get paid for coming up with this stuff and I don't. ;)
4: Any combination of the above.
Biggest question? How did Wells/Thawne/Reverse-Flash recognize Jay's helmet?
I'll be happy as long a they answer that.
EDIT: Oooo, one more option
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Looks like I'll probably be repeating some other poster's speculations, but I already had this typed up, so.....
That was weird.
Speaking of…I kind of liked the family dynamic thing going on there. Very interesting.
Wally and Cisco – both once again eventually ignoring the advice of Harry and revealing what went on over on Earth 2 to the people they probably should not have. Let’s see what kind of frivolity emerges from those revelations.
And then there’s that reveal at the end…..Zoom is Jay/Hunter? If the man in the iron mask is indeed another Jay/Hunter, then it looks like maybe the theories about them being twins on each Earth could be true. So maybe iron mask is the Jay of Earth 1, the one who just died is the Jay of Earth 2, Zoom is the Hunter Zolomon of Earth 2, leaving the Hunter Zolomon of Earth 1 as the guy Jay2 showed to Caitlin in the park (and maybe the key to ultimately defeating Zoom).
Which leads me to something else I just realized. IF this is the direction the show runners are going in, they’re pulling from the Chain Lightening story, which featured Cobalt Blue. This might explain why Zoom’s lightening is blue-ish in color, and why he needs to steal Flash’s speed.
So when the unmasked Zoom said something about Jay2’s death being a complication, he meant that now he has no direct source to feed on, because Jay1/Iron Mask has no speed, just like Hunter1. Which would be an interesting parallel – On Earth1, Barry1 gets the speed and Jay1/Hunter1 stay normal. On Earth2, Barry2 stays normal, while Jay2 becomes The Flash and Hunter2 becomes Zoom.
Either way, it’s interesting.
And next week we get Trajectory. In the comics, she was given her powers by Lex. So it’ll be interesting to see who gives them to her this time. Maybe the government? Maybe another secret Argus/Amanda Waller project, since they kind of opened the door for it in this episode?