One of my players totally blew my mind tonight when they called me to bring this to my attention.
Aligned Class (Ex) Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
How is this class ability not totally broken!? Even if you discount that it may let you progress a prestige class, it is still literally better than going straight classed nearly every time!
What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
Discuss.
All three of the prestige classes in ISG are quite powerful. The Evangelist is just the most powerful one. It may be one of the most powerful Prestige Classes ever, even including all the 3.5 OP ones. Especially given the right deity / base class combo. I'm not entirely surprised though; the power level in the setting books tends to be higher than the level of the rule books.
Cayden's boons are great for any sort of sneak attacker.
Desna'a really nice for any Cha caster, especially for a blasty one.
Erastil's third boon is incredible for a Zen Archer.
Gorum's second and third boon are wonderful for any mounted charging character.
Norgorber gives out a minute/level greater invisibility as his third boon.
Pharasma gives Oracles the only way I've seen of getting a revelation from a different mystery.
I also really like the Multitude of Talents feature at level five for low-skill point classes.
For any god that doesn't have an onerous devotion, taking Evangalist is nearly always going to be a significant net gain.
There's actually a guide up to the Devotions and the ISG prestige classes already: [url]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j93nfBS7fdK4zJ94-fqjoQV6-yAMl6TpTsq0U4g H5Ws/edit?pli=1[/url
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It may be one of the most powerful Prestige Classes ever, even including all the 3.5 OP ones.
Planar shepard.
Anyways, its got terrible saves, 3/4 BAB, and gives you 9/10 of your old class. That's... pretty much the only reason not to use it I guess?
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What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
And depending on your game, performing your daily obedience might not exactly be automatic (not that this seems to be too much of a problem with the non-Evil deities.)I don't know if it's overpowered or not, but there is no reason to get quite so upset so quickly. This is far from the first thread on this topic. Many of the others actually mention the Evangelist class so people know what is actually being discussed.
Discuss.
Please don't do that. Ending a post like that gives the impression you're trying to get people riled up, and fighting with each other, rather than have an actual discussion with you.
All three of the prestige classes in ISG are quite powerful. The Evangelist is just the most powerful one. It may be one of the most powerful Prestige Classes ever, even including all the 3.5 OP ones. Especially given the right deity / base class combo. I'm not entirely surprised though; the power level in the setting books tends to be higher than the level of the rule books.
Cayden's boons are great for any sort of sneak attacker.
Desna'a really nice for any Cha caster, especially for a blasty one.
Erastil's third boon is incredible for a Zen Archer.
Gorum's second and third boon are wonderful for any mounted charging character.
Norgorber gives out a minute/level greater invisibility as his third boon.
Pharasma gives Oracles the only way I've seen of getting a revelation from a different mystery.I also really like the Multitude of Talents feature at level five for low-skill point classes.
For any god that doesn't have an onerous devotion, taking Evangalist is nearly always going to be a significant net gain.
There's actually a guide up to the Devotions and the ISG prestige classes already: Guide to ISG Prestige Classes and Devotions
Fixed your link
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@Ross - I don't get that impression from using "Discuss" to end the post. There is no invitation to get riled up whatsoever, nor fight with each other.
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@Ross - I don't get that impression from using "Discuss" to end the post. There is no invitation to get riled up whatsoever, nor fight with each other.
Maybe it's a holdover from my moderating days, but I tend to read posts (especially controversial posts) that end with "Discuss." as meaning something like "Dance, monkeys, dance!." It implies that the OP is more interested in watching other people discuss between themselves than participate him/herself. It's the kind of language that, at best, is used by textbooks and bad philosophy instructors, from a position of authority.
Frankly, on a forum, the implication that you're starting a discussion really should go without saying. Or at the very least something like "What do you think?" tends to indicate more of a willingness to participate personally and invite a dialogue.
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How is this class ability not totally broken!? Even if you discount that it may let you progress a prestige class, it is still literally better than going straight classed nearly every time!
What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
Discuss.
Let's see what everyone loses and gains:
Everyone loses a level of all Class features and all Favored Class bonuses, to gain a medium BAB, 6 skill points per level, a good Reflex and poor other Saves, a few minor bonuses from the actual Evangelist class features, and d8 HD.
So, let's look at some classes:
That gives a Wizard medium BAB and more skill points (as well as the Evangelist Class Features)...in exchange for a caster level. That's...maybe worth it, but losing a CL always hurts.
As a Cleric or other Divine caster, basically it gives skill points (and the few class features Evangelist has) at the cost of a level of casting. That doesn't sound worth it mechanically.
As a Full BAB class you give up 3 points of BAB, a level of class features, favored class bonuses, and 1 HP a level (2 for a Barbarian), for skills (except Ranger and slayer who don't even get that) and a few class bonuses. That's...mediocre at best.
As a Rogue, you give up 2 skill points per level, your Favored Class bonus, and a delay in class features for...uh, the various small buffs the class gives. That doesn't sound good at all.
Warpriest and Monk because of how their BAB works, do a lot better (though the Monk loses out on Saves). And Bard and Inquisitor don't lose a lot (or gain a lot). And so on and so forth.
That...doesn't look too bad.
Really, it's a decent Prestige Class, but giving up that level of stuff hurts, and it's built on the BAB, HD, and Saves of a Rogue, only with fewer skills...that's not a particularly nice chassis to throw class abilities onto. It's better than a Wizard's chassis, mind you, but it's not optimal.
@Ross Understood. I agree it is unnecessary/goes without saying. I just thought it was RD's eccentric writing style. It does feel like something a professor might say. ;)
You might infer RD is not intending to participate in the subsequent discussion. If RD had written "Let's discuss" that might read differently. Regardless, whether or not RD wants/need to participate shouldn't make his OP any less legitimate.
meh. I want to see it in actual play before passing judgement. 3/4 bab and one good save (that's reflex, blech) turns me off on a lot of classes.
Everyone loses a level of all Class features and all Favored Class bonuses, to gain a medium BAB, 6 skill points per level, a good Reflex and poor other Saves, a few minor bonuses from the actual Evangelist class features, and d8 HD.
Actually, evangelist gives bonuses based on your deific obedience. Some of these boons are a bit more than minor and actually really nice. Spiritual form is also more than just a minor bonus. I guess it depends on how you see the word minor.
Certain prestige classes gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class. If you ever fail to perform a daily obedience, you lose all access to the benefits and boons granted by this feat until you next perform the obedience.
I really don't see how this is all that broken.
Think of it more like a one level dip and a feat that gets you all the benefits of the class. The useful stuff:
+2 AC
Spiritual Form
The boons
Admittedly there's not bad, but consider that this is spread out over the 10 levels following the dip. And consider how much you're giving up.
If you're a spellcaster in which case you give up that spell level, which is huge and arguably not worth it even then.
If you're not a spellcaster you're probably a full BAB martial who's giving up BAB and HP and progression of Smite/Challenge/whatever and delaying Rage Powers or Feats or whatever.
If you're a 3/4 BAB class then you're probably bad to begin with so this class is just what the doctor ordered. Even then you're stepping back your FoB or Sneak Attack, which is not without cost.
I can see this being really good for some builds, such as a Strength based Ninja who gets Cha to AC, but I can't see it being broken.
All in all I think it's a really nice bit of design.
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What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
We can't be having full spellcasters having any sort of a nerf. Nerfs are reserved for martial characters.
It may be one of the most powerful Prestige Classes ever, even including all the 3.5 OP ones.Planar shepard.
Anyways, its got terrible saves, 3/4 BAB, and gives you 9/10 of your old class. That's... pretty much the only reason not to use it I guess?
Okay, I'll admit it isn't as over-the-top cheesy as some 3.5 PrC that were 100% upgrade with no drawback or even significant cost of entry; but it's certainly much better than the majority of Pathfinder's prestige classes.
For a full caster, or a full BAB class, there's certainly a larger trade-off. But 3/4 BAB classes aren't losing much. As for saves, even a monk is only one behind on Fort & Will until they go the full ten levels of the class. (Although I will admit that the BAB cost of the ninth level of any 3/4 BAB class is annoying.) For some gods, the final boon isn't worth your time in which case there's not much to lose at all if you only take the first eight levels.
I think Deadmanwalkings break down is pretty accurate...I think some people are having a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
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I guess I won't mention that I'm having my latest wizard go Riftwarden which loses THREE caster levels.We can't be having full spellcasters having any sort of a nerf. Nerfs are reserved for martial characters.What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
Have we mentioned that most PrCs are usually poor choices for casters lately? Could reiterate that.
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I admit that I mostly play PFS and so only really care about potential issues at levels lower than 12. And I haven't noticed anything too bad at those levels.
That said, please give an actual example of a brokenly overpowered character at level 11 or even 15. Lots of people have claimed it is broken but I haven't seen a single example. The closest is a Mystic Theurge with some quite controversial assumptions in how things work.
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Everyone loses a level of all Class features and all Favored Class bonuses, to gain a medium BAB, 6 skill points per level, a good Reflex and poor other Saves, a few minor bonuses from the actual Evangelist class features, and d8 HD.Actually, evangelist gives bonuses based on your deific obedience. Some of these boons are a bit more than minor and actually really nice. Spiritual form is also more than just a minor bonus. I guess it depends on how you see the word minor.
Eh. Spiritual Form is very nice, I admit, but the rest? You get Boons anyway, just for having the Feat, you just get them 3-5 levels early for taking the Class (and grab a different set). And you get +2 AC and a couple of languages. All that sounds pretty minor to me for a whole Class.
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It may be one of the most powerful Prestige Classes ever, even including all the 3.5 OP ones.Planar shepard.
Anyways, its got terrible saves, 3/4 BAB, and gives you 9/10 of your old class. That's... pretty much the only reason not to use it I guess?
Okay, I'll admit it isn't as over-the-top cheesy as some 3.5 PrC that were 100% upgrade with no drawback or even significant cost of entry; but it's certainly much better than the majority of Pathfinder's prestige classes.
For a full caster, or a full BAB class, there's certainly a larger trade-off. But 3/4 BAB classes aren't losing much. As for saves, even a monk is only one behind on Fort & Will until they go the full ten levels of the class. (Although I will admit that the BAB cost of the ninth level of any 3/4 BAB class is annoying.) For some gods, the final boon isn't worth your time in which case there's not much to lose at all if you only take the first eight levels.
Considering the fact that most of the Pathfinder prestige classes are absolutely terrible and 90% of them never get used outside of some goofy flavor reasons, I think a prestige class that is leagues ahead of PF's usual fare is a good thing.
Lets look at this from the POV of a wizard or sorcerer:
Cost = 1 caster level. Capstone bloodline for sorcerer, capstone discovery for wizard.
Gains = Better BAB. Better HD. Better skills. More class features.
Not a bad trade, all things considered,
For the Story and Campaign purposes for this character, I consider the price acceptable.Have we mentioned that most PrCs are usually poor choices for casters lately? Could reiterate that.I guess I won't mention that I'm having my latest wizard go Riftwarden which loses THREE caster levels.We can't be having full spellcasters having any sort of a nerf. Nerfs are reserved for martial characters.What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!I won't speak for the writer, but frankly, losing even one caster level is a big deal, especially if you're already a sorcerer or oracle.
I think you should never have to pay a price to be who you want to be, but rewarded.
Then again that's a different topic. Unless... someone somehow though the obedience really balance out the class, but that's sort of ridiculous. imo anyway.
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Lets look at this from the POV of a wizard or sorcerer:
Cost = 1 caster level. Capstone bloodline for sorcerer, capstone discovery for wizard.Gains = Better BAB. Better HD. Better skills. More class features.
Not a bad trade, all things considered,
Wizard, maybe. Sorcerers are already a level behind on casting in some ways, though. No 3rd level spells until 7th level? Ouch.
And there's now another way to reduce you to 5th level casting, and weaknesses like that are always unpleasant to deal with.
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And there's now another way to reduce you to 5th level casting, and weaknesses like that are always unpleasant to deal with.
All or nothing has never been a great balance though. Its essentially have fun or you aren't playing your class anymore. Its why burning a wizards spell book gets touchy.
Then again that's a different topic. Unless... someone somehow though the obedience really balance out the class, but that's sort of ridiculous. imo anyway.
Well, some of them really aren't practical to engage in on a daily basis, at least not in most adventuring situations. So that would limit me from using the classes for those deities. Of course in Society play, those fluffy restrictions are just going to get handwaved most of the time anyway
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And there's now another way to reduce you to 5th level casting, and weaknesses like that are always unpleasant to deal with.All or nothing has never been a great balance though. Its essentially have fun or you aren't playing your class anymore. Its why burning a wizards spell book gets touchy.
Unlike burning a spellbook, though, this particular restriction costs the character nothing long-term. It's more like an Antimagic Field. You're screwed while it's ongoing, but fine when its duration elapses.
That makes it much more likely to see actual use, IMO. It's not good as a sole balancing measure, but then it isn't the sole balancing measure. Heck, I forgot it entirely in my initial post. :)
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Unlike burning a spellbook, though, this particular restriction costs the character nothing long-term. It's more like an Antimagic Field. You're screwed while it's ongoing, but fine when its duration elapses.And there's now another way to reduce you to 5th level casting, and weaknesses like that are always unpleasant to deal with.All or nothing has never been a great balance though. Its essentially have fun or you aren't playing your class anymore. Its why burning a wizards spell book gets touchy.
Well, lost my powers guys... time to get coffee. You guys want anything while I'm gone? I mean, except Jeff for putting me in a situation I can't play. He gets his coffee, IN THE FACE!
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Well, some of them really aren't practical to engage in on a daily basis, at least not in most adventuring situations. So that would limit me from using the classes for those deities. Of course in Society play, those fluffy restrictions are just going to get handwaved most of the time anyway
I actually didn't get the impression that's particularly true. Most I've heard seem pretty reasonable to do unless someone's actively stopping you or you need to be sneaky.
So Mr. Ravingdork, how would you abuse the class feature?
For better or worse.
I'm still thinking you can potentially abuse it with a mystic theurge and early access to do something silly like:
aasimar (any) for race, Cleric 1 (trickery domain or inquisition)/Wiz 1/xxx 1/MT 2/Evangelist 10/Mystic Theurge 5. Oooh, look I have 9th level spells cleric and wizard.
While fun theorycraft, it is by no means playable at a table.
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Well, lost my powers guys... time to get coffee. You guys want anything while I'm gone? I mean, except Jeff for putting me in a situation I can't play. He gets his coffee, IN THE FACE!
Antimagic Field does the same thing. As does being unconscious. Losing character effectiveness temporarily happens all the time in Pathfinder, it's when said losses become permanent or necessitate permanent costs to fix that they become really problematic.
While fun theorycraft, it is by no means playable at a table.
Well, unless a GM lets you. Which is totally possible. I know several who will.
Well, lost my powers guys... time to get coffee. You guys want anything while I'm gone? I mean, except Jeff for putting me in a situation I can't play. He gets his coffee, IN THE FACE!Antimagic Field does the same thing. As does being unconscious. Losing character effectiveness temporarily happens all the time in Pathfinder, it's when said losses become permanent or necessitate permanent costs to fix that they become really problematic.
Unconcious can be solved a whole lot quicker. I never approve of things that tell a player they may as well not be playing short of death really, and I like to remedy that ASAP so they can join in and be social and active again.
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Unconcious can be solved a whole lot quicker. I never approve of things that tell a player they may as well not be playing short of death really, and I like to remedy that ASAP so they can join in and be social and active again.
Unconscious is also a whole lot worse. You don't lose any Saves, Gear, or stats from losing Aligned Class, just class features. It's annoying but far from crippling on many characters. Only pure casters are really screwed, and even they have their low-level spells plus their level-appropriate casting stat.
Well, some of them really aren't practical to engage in on a daily basis, at least not in most adventuring situations. So that would limit me from using the classes for those deities. Of course in Society play, those fluffy restrictions are just going to get handwaved most of the time anywayI actually didn't get the impression that's particularly true. Most I've heard seem pretty reasonable to do unless someone's actively stopping you or you need to be sneaky.
I can see Asmodeans (and Lasmashtites) not having access to a victim while dungeon crawling.
Caydenites could easily run out of alcohol if they're away from their supplier for very long.Irorans can only cart around so many unread books.
Pharsmans will surely not be able to name a newborn every day when they're anywhere except a large enough community that there's at least one person born every day for them to know the name of.
Sarenraens who are in a dungeon for more than one day won't be able to find a stranger to heal or pray under the sky.
All but one or two of the core twenty will not be fulfillable by any character that loses all their gear - which puts them on equal footing with a wizard and his spellbook.
Caydenites could easily run out of alcohol if they're away from their supplier for very long.
There's a magic for that!
Ohhh. Nice. I was trying to find a proper magic ale stein type item the other day for a dwarf I was working on.
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One thing to bear in mind-- while this probably won't apply to PFS games, it can absolutely apply to home games if the GM has a backbone and the players are cool with this kind of game. I am reminded of Colin McComb's apology for the "Complete Book of Elves", which he did as the result of a stretch goal on some kickstarter campaign or another. Paraphrasing (as it's been a while since I watched it), he was responding to widespread conmplaints that the book gave elves mechanical advantages with only roleplaying limitations or drawbacks. He said, "I'm sorry for putting roleplaying limitations in a... roleplaying game."
The daily requirement for the obedience is the mechanical limitation on access to the Evangilist's class powers. But, in a home game, as a GM if a character wasn't upholding the faith, even going through the rituals wouldn't be enough. The rituals are required, but not sufficient; one must also live true to the faith of the deity. Yes, purely a roleplaying limitation, but this is a roleplaying game.
If you're willing to include this limitation, it's not as broken a class as all that. You really have to be zealotous about your faith to take one of the PrCs in Inner Sea Gods. If you aren't zealotous about your faith, then, frankly, for roleplaying (but not mechanical) reasons, you don't qualify for it.
This doesn't help with PFS (where we can only enforce mechanics, because there isn't one GM), but GMs in home games should definitely be thinking this way IMHO.
Roleplay can never balance mechanics. Roleplay can add quiet a bit, but never balance.
That's pretty excellent for mystic theurge, now they can get both spell progressions for 17 levels with early entry. So 9th level spells in both. Awesome.
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I can see Asmodeans (and Lasmashtites) not having access to a victim while dungeon crawling.
Bringing a slave with you is pretty easy. And a Lamashtan can sacrifice an enemy pretty readily in most dungeons.
Caydenites could easily run out of alcohol if they're away from their supplier for very long.
Clerics or Inquisitors of Cayden Cailean can make alcohol with Create Water. Or see the item previously mentioned. And it's one cup a day...that's hardly unreasonable to carry with you on most dungeon expeditions.
Irorans can only cart around so many unread books.
True, but hell, another party member could write one if needed.
Pharsmans will surely not be able to name a newborn every day when they're anywhere except a large enough community that there's at least one person born every day for them to know the name of.
Okay, this one's tricky without the use of divination magic. Ouch.
Sarenraens who are in a dungeon for more than one day won't be able to find a stranger to heal or pray under the sky.
Eh. Most adventures don't entirely avoid the outside to this extent. Most 'dungeons' have some sky to them. Or some strangers.
All but one or two of the core twenty will not be fulfillable by any character that loses all their gear - which puts them on equal footing with a wizard and his spellbook.
This bit is true, and part of my basic argument, really.
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That's pretty excellent for mystic theurge, now they can get both spell progressions for 17 levels with early entry. So 9th level spells in both. Awesome.
Actually, there's no evidence you can get more levels of class features than the class has, so this doesn't work.
Yes I wanted to see others' reactions. No I didn't intend to be a bystander in the discussion. I genuinely wanted a discussion about it.
Also, I think you guys are WAY overestimating the power of 1 caster level. More than one and it could certainly be crippling, but being just one behind isn't much of anything at all.
Oh! And I forgot to mention something else: You lose all Class Features for a day if you miss your Obedience. That includes Aligned Class. Ouch.
You sure about that? I thought it was only the boons you lost, not all of the prestige class' abilities.
So Mr. Ravingdork, how would you abuse the class feature?
By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
I doubt very much you could make a straight class, any straight class, that would be strictly better than an evangelist build with an equal level. At worst, you would be relatively on par. At best, there's no reason not to go that route.
That's why I think it's broken. It's too much the obvious choice. Not always, but 90% of the time.
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Yes I wanted to see others' reactions. No I didn't intend to be a bystander in the discussion. I genuinely wanted a discussion about it.
Also, I think you guys are WAY overestimating the power of 1 caster level. More than one and it could certainly be crippling, but being just one behind isn't much of anything at all.
One hurts. It's not crippling, but it still hurts.
You sure about that? I thought it was only the boons you lost, not all of the prestige class' abilities.
Under Obedience in the class description:
In order to maintain the abilities granted by this prestige class, including all abilities gained from aligned class, an evangelist must perform a daily obedience to her chosen deity.
By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Try it out. Build a character, and then try making the same character as not an Evangelist. You'l likely find the Evangelist more flavorful, but not notably mechanically superior in most cases.
I doubt very much you could make a straight class, any straight class, that would be strictly better than an evangelist build with an equal level. At worst, you would be relatively on par. At best, there's no reason not to go that route.
Barbarian. Or anything else with full BAB and d10 or higher HD, comes to mind.
And all the casters lose a caster level, which is only potentially worth it, not necessarily so.
That's why I think it's broken. It's too much the obvious choice. Not always, but 90% of the time.
To repeat myself from another thread not everyone agrees with you.
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Okay, let's take a look at a random group of real characters. We'll go with the characters in the RotRL game I'm going to be playing in starting Friday. Let's see which of them would be well served by Evangelist:
My character is an Oracle of Lore 1, planning to go Barbarian for the rest of his levels and focusing on hitting things with an axe in combat, and being the face of the group plus good at knowledge checks (via Focused Trance) while out of combat. A devotee of Cayden Cailean, he's thematically well-suited to Evangelist, but losing 2 HP per level, the Human Favored Class Bonus on Superstition (and thus +3 to all saves when raging), 3 points of BAB, and getting delayed another level on all Rage Powers, makes it a pretty bad choice all things considered, even if the bonuses and skills would be nice.
One of the other characters is a Healing Patron Hedge Witch doing the standard Witch debuffer+healer thing. Delaying all spells and Hexes by a level doesn't really seem worth it for extra skill points, a few minor bonuses, and a +2 BAB that'll never see use. Not a very religious character either.
Another is an Urban Ranger crit-fishing with Butterfly's Sting and dual-wielded kukris. He'd lose 3 BAB, 2 hp a level (from HD and Favored Class), a one level delay on all his class features, some Fortitude save, and gain...some class skills? And a few tricks from Desna that are mostly useless to him since he's a Ranger (he has those spells on his list), and has Charisma 8 (making the second boon pretty near useless). That's an actively horrible choice for him.
A fourth, is a Dwarf Tetori Monk. He wouldn't actually lose much, though his class features would come a level later and his saves would be worse, though he would gain some skills...unfortunately, he's not that religious, making it less than good thematically.
And finally, the fifth guy is a Wizard planning on grabbing a level of Cleric with the Trickery Domain and going Mystic Theurge. He'd wind up two caster levels behind as a Wizard, and 4 as a Cleric if he went Evangelist. Wait, wasn't that the number of levels that made everyone advise against Mystic Theurge before early initiation? Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good idea for him either.
So, of five characters, it's a good idea for one mechanically (maybe two if you push it), and it doesn't suit his theme. That doesn't sound like something everyone should take. It sounds like something good, since it is a good idea for some characters chosen at random, but not remotely good for everyone.
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By playing ANYTHING, getting nearly all of its class abilities plus plenty of extra goodies.
Nonsense. You think a ftr or a barbarian is improved? Any full BAB class?
Stop with the generalities. Show me a single 11th or 15th level character that is significantly and clearly better than its counterpart.