Alright, so don't sweat the specifics, but I want to know how this should be ruled. Usually at least one interesting thing happens each game I play that no one really knows 100% how it works, so here I ask.
Ally is prone, and enemy chooses to charge at me who is a further distance away obviously. So, ally is adjacent to the enemy, and the enemy provokes an AoO. All those details besides the AoO are important. So the Magus had been missing like crazy and had a touch spell on him, and upon hitting the creature charging (-2 AC) got hit, and became fatigued due to the spell (doesn't matter the spell), and legally cant charge....
What happens here?
Enemy declared a full round action, and from the condition of being fatigued it cannot do that action anymore, right? Does it move at least 5 feet from provoking on the movement, or should it just stay in the space it was at and take no more actions (ending it's turn)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
AoOs take place BEFORE the action that triggered them. So the man doesn't move, and his turn is completely wasted.
|
Not sure there is a RAW about that.
Way I would do it is apply the penalties of the condition as soon as it arrives. So, no more charge and STR and DEX penalties, though the movement will continue if it was initiated before the AoO (which is the case here as the AC penalty for charging was already in place).
I'm with Rynjin, and even more extreme.
IIRC, the AoO is triggered before the action as succeeded, but it has began. So your enemy stops his charge, wastes his full-round, is fatigued, and still continue to suffer charge penalties. He can still uses his swift or free actions, but that's all.
Great job for your ally.
Raven, the action being taken is a full round action, so giving movement and such in exchange doesn't to me seem to be correct by game mechanics.
Rynjin, at the table this happened I spoke out what I believe this should work which is that the enemy just stands there with a completely wasted turn, but the GM allowed the creature to move as normal with the condition and make an attack on the target (move/standard).
Grey area is that the movement of the 5ft that was about to happen being part of the charge was interrupted. I figure that doesn't matter, but just to be sure, would you agree absolutely no movement happens?
This was a PFS scenario, and it was crazy hard. We were very happy that we agreed that it should be ruled that way from how events occurred, but then disappointed when the GM rules to let it move and attack anyways. Game was real awesome regardless since we overcame the extremely difficult challenge the scenario presented with no deaths, which is a plus.
Yes, charge penalties would exist too.
I feel that allowing a cantrip to prevent a character from acting for a full round makes it far too powerful.
1.) Who said anything about a Cantrip? My assumption was that it was Frostbite.
2.) U wot
How would you feel if it was your character that was hit with it and prevented to act ?
I'd feel that my GM was applying the proper consequences for me being hit by a certain status effect.
I believe it was frostbite. The creature provoked an AoO on the charge, and should have suffered the consequences.
As long as the rules are being respected, and I die, then I die happy knowing it was in all fairness. If I lost my turn with these circumstances, then that would be a pretty cool story.
My interpretation
Charge gains you double move and +2 AB to your attack. Becoming fatigued mid way means you lose the benefits of the charge.
If you move your movement rate or less you can still get an attack off, but without the +2 to hit from charging. (normal move + attack)
If you move more than your movement rate you just used a double move, and are too fatigued to get the attack off at the end.
You still take the -2 AC penalty from charging until your next turn.
The penalties of fatigue would apply on top of any of the above.
|
I feel that allowing a cantrip to prevent a character from acting for a full round makes it far too powerful.
How would you feel if it was your character that was hit with it and prevented to act ?
As mentioned, daze FTW.
Don't forget that color spray does a minimum of 1 round lost, no matter what level the target is, if they fail the save.
here is my thread on the kind-of similar subject
I believe it was frostbite. The creature provoked an AoO on the charge, and should have suffered the consequences.
As long as the rules are being respected, and I die, then I die happy knowing it was in all fairness. If I lost my turn with these circumstances, then that would be a pretty cool story.
He did suffer the consequences - his charge was nerfed down into a move and standard attack. Why would you expect to lose a turn as a consequence when frostbite normally doesn't normally cause loss of a turn?
I think Lythe Featherblade's analysis of consequences is right on the money.
The full-round (the charge) action was consumed.
A charge can't be made while fatigued.
The charge stops.
He doesn't gain new actions.
Aoo interrupts the action in which it provokes, so the movement out with the charge triggered, then fatigued resulted in being unable to complete the action.
If you shoot a long bow and provoke, you could be tripped and have wasted your standard action to attack with your bow since you can't attack with it prone and were already performing the action.
|
My interpretation:
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a fatiguing attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Fatigue prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.
This is no different than if a trip maneuver was used instead of a spell.
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a trip attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Trip prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.
Still did the charge and full round. It just didn't work out so well. Charge penalties.
He did suffer the consequences - his charge was nerfed down into a move and standard attack. Why would you expect to lose a turn as a consequence when frostbite normally doesn't normally cause loss of a turn?
So because it normally doesn't cause loss of a turn, therefore under special circumstances where the condition it applies prevents an action it can no longer cause the loss of a turn?
What kind of logic is that?
Creature got a turn. Actions were used, and still had swift and free to take if they wished. Don't charge away whole standing next to a magus if don't like this.
The full-round (the charge) action was consumed.
A charge can't be made while fatigued.
The charge stops.He doesn't gain new actions.
Except that is an interpretation as there is no rule saying how these two interact.
Without a rule, we only have interpretation.
I agree with this we don't have a specific rule on how these would interact. In my opinion the charge would complete as normal after the AoO and then from that point on the enemy would be fatigued.
My interpretation:
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a fatiguing attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Fatigue prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.This is no different than if a trip maneuver was used instead of a spell.
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a trip attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Trip prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.
Would someone show me where it says that AoOs always go off before the action that provokes? That is true for readied actions but see nothing about that under AoO.
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
It seems to me that it says an AoO can go off in the MIDDLE of an action as well. So in this instance the charge action has already begun and therefore isn't prevented by the AoO which occurs DURING not before the charge. So then the charge completes.
My interpretation:
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a fatiguing attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Fatigue prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.This is no different than if a trip maneuver was used instead of a spell.
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a trip attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Trip prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.
Would someone show me where it says that AoOs always go off before the action that provokes? That is true for readied actions but see nothing about that under AoO.
It seems to me that it says an AoO can go off in the MIDDLE of an action as well. So in this instance the charge action has already begun and therefore isn't prevented by the AoO which occurs DURING not before the charge. So then the charge completes.Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Bolded for you.
"Charging" is not the action that triggered the AoO.
Leaving the Magus' threatened square is what triggered it. And this is immediately resolved before he can continue.
So he left the Magus' threatened square, attempting to Charge.
He was hit by Frostbite.
He was Fatigued.
People who are Fatigued may not Charge.
This is a logical sequence of events.
He is unable to Charge, that much is clear. What is not clear, though I believe it is so, is that he is unable to then change his actions based on the new condition. Nothing else in the game works like that by default.
Here's a similar example. You are a caster, and you decide not to Cast Defensively. You provoke an AoO, and it disrupts the spell. You do not then get to take another Standard action instead, or change the spell you were casting to one that it's easier to pass the Concentration check for. Your turn is wasted.
AoOs explicitly interrupt the normal action sequence. They occur at the instant the provoking action is made, and all consequences resulting from the AoO immediately apply. There is designer commentary somewhere that if those consequences invalidate the action taking place, that action stops.
In this case, as the provoking character is leaving the magus' threatened area, he provokes. AoO is made while he is still in the relevant threatened square. The consequence of the action is that the charge is no longer a valid action. The charge stops. The character has used his full-round action to charge. Only free and swift actions remain available to him, he's still adjacent to the magus, and there's a damn good reason you deal with the immediate threat before going somewhere else.
If an interrupting effect limits your actions on your turn, that limit applies immediately.
Well that pretty much settles that.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I agree with this we don't have a specific rule on how these would interact. In my opinion the charge would complete as normal after the AoO and then from that point on the enemy would be fatigued.
+1 and this is how I'd rule in any game including RAW games.
As I understand the AoO is for leaving a threatened square, which can't have happened unless the Charge started already.
I agree with this we don't have a specific rule on how these would interact. In my opinion the charge would complete as normal after the AoO and then from that point on the enemy would be fatigued.+1 and this is how I'd rule in any game including RAW games.
Why? What sense does it make?
Both from a rules perspective and a logical one there's no reason to allow him to complete his action. He has a condition that specifically prevents him from taking the action he is attempting to take. That settles it right there. He can no longer take that action, period.
I agree with this we don't have a specific rule on how these would interact. In my opinion the charge would complete as normal after the AoO and then from that point on the enemy would be fatigued.+1 and this is how I'd rule in any game including RAW games.
Why? What sense does it make?
Both from a rules perspective and a logical one there's no reason to allow him to complete his action. He has a condition that specifically prevents him from taking the action he is attempting to take. That settles it right there. He can no longer take that action, period.
My original understanding was that the magus was prone in between the target and the attacker and that the attacker already started the charge and thus in the middle of an in progress charge got hit and fatigued but finishes the already begun action. However, in light of Jiggy's link to the FAQ I've had to revise my position. I was wrong.
|
|
My interpretation:
Enemy declares full round action (charge).
Enemy start his charge
He move and when he leave the threatened square he generate an AoO
Enemy incurs AOO.
PC interrupts with a fatiguing attack.
PC's AOO occurs before charge. Fatigue prevents charge.
Enemy loses charge and full round action.
The AoO happen "just before" the enemy left the threatened square, not just before the charge.
At that point we apply a condition that negate the charge. The effects of the conditions are applied immediately, so the enemy can't charge and has already initiated a move that is not a 5' step.
I would allow him to complete a normal move, but nothing more than that.
As I understand the AoO is for leaving a threatened square, which can't have happened unless the Charge started already.
As other said, replace fatigued by trip. A FAQ has even been quoted.
The fact that the AoO resolve before the end of the action is the same thing that prevent the trip-locking to work, and I really prefer it that way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If an interrupting effect limits your actions on your turn, that limit applies immediately.
You know that it is completely unfair to drag designer responses on a FAQ into a perfectly good rules arguement.
If an interrupting effect limits your actions on your turn, that limit applies immediately.
Thanks, Jiggy. Knew it was around somewhere, but writing on my iPad, so trawling through the FAQ and linking is a pain.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If an interrupting effect limits your actions on your turn, that limit applies immediately.You know that it is completely unfair to drag designer responses on a FAQ into a perfectly good rules arguement.
I agree. I mean how is everyone supposed to get to the name calling, entrenched denial of opposing positions, etc... when someone posts an outright definitive answer! Where is the fun in that !?!
I think it is pretty obvious that he can't charge. I'm not sure though that he can't do anything. Declaring an action doesn't necessarily lock you into it and you can change your mind if the situation changes.
For example, right in the basic combat rules it says: Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
Our attacker was going to charge, but he can't charge, because he is now fatigues. But a fatigued character can still move and attack, and assuming he is close enough (not the double movement on a charge) I would think he could indeed continue his turn with the actions he had and the limitations of the new condition.
Similarly, if as in the FAQ example, he was staggered instead of fatigued he would be able to continue his movement action, but he wouldn't be able to attack at the end of it.
Lastly, if he was tripped, his move action would indeed end, but he would still have a standard action, that he could use as a move to stand up.
I'd say that the character loses the ability to charge, but retains their other actions. Doing otherwise feels like the rules getting in the way of the game.
That is, let's say I was going to go running after somebody, and just as I start to take my first step, I suddenly feel my energy drain away, and can't bring myself to run. I wouldn't ALSO be incapable of doing anything else--I could still walk, or doing something else.
In the example someone used above with trip, I similarly wouldn't have someone that gets tripped just as they start a charge lose the rest of their actions just because they got tripped. At worst, I'd say they've lose a move action and still have a standard (after all, they could attack from the ground), and at best, I'd say that they have lost their 5 foot step, and could take a non-movement move action as well as their standard still. Now, if they had actually started the charge, and somewhere along their route got tripped, I'd say that they've lost their move action at least, if they haven't yet traveled their normal speed, or both their move and standard if they've crossed that threshold.
Look at it this way: if someone were taking a move action to get to someone and attack, but was interrupted, would you also take away their standard action because they got tripped? If not, why do that to a charge just because it's classified as a full-round action?
I agree. I mean how is everyone supposed to get to the name calling, entrenched denial of opposing positions, etc... when someone posts an outright definitive answer! Where is the fun in that !?!If an interrupting effect limits your actions on your turn, that limit applies immediately.You know that it is completely unfair to drag designer responses on a FAQ into a perfectly good rules arguement.
The answer doesn't cover this situation fully. What it does is demonstrate sequence of events, but the examples in the FAQ use effects that directly prevent actions, where as this discussion is concerned with effects that prevent some actions, but not others, and is seeking to determine what the result is when the issue isn't clear cut.
Too often people relate this game to reality, and that's not how you should be doing things. It's a game, and it has rules, and you follow the rules, or the game will have issues. It seems silly that you just ended up taking a hit and had to stop, but why can't I roll and stand up to keep running if I get tripped, or countless other explanations that I can come up with for mechanics in the game?
Too often people relate this game to reality, and that's not how you should be doing things. It's a game, and it has rules, and you follow the rules, or the game will have issues. It seems silly that you just ended up taking a hit and had to stop, but why can't I roll and stand up to keep running if I get tripped, or countless other explanations that I can come up with for mechanics in the game?
In many ways, the mechanics are there to govern the game according to an interpretation of reality, and in that way, things make sense. If you get tripped while running, it's likely you hit the ground hard, and are slow getting up or otherwise acting--this is borne out by your losing the rest of your move action in such a circumstance, and I believe there are some talents or feats that aim to answer your question, by allowing someone to stand from prone as a swift action. You still lose your movement, because you lost your forward moment, but you took the fall skillfully and got back on your feet, perhaps. There would probably even be a talent or feat that would allow you to roll out of a trip and keep on moving, except that it would be kind of unbalancing, since tripping is already fairly difficult to pull off without that added layer of negation/defense.
In this case, we some rules for full attacks that indicate that you can change your mind if you haven't committed to the full action (take one attack, then move instead of continuing with the rest of your attacks). Now, that gets a little hairy if you're taking a full attack that has effects on your first attack (Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc...), but should still hold true. Sure, a charge is a full round action, and not a full attack, but the idea is the same, to a point.
I don't think I'd let someone interrupt their own charge prematurely, but I might depending on the circumstances.
Do we have any rules that state that a full round action that's interrupted before the character has actually taken any actions removes all remaining actions for that character for the remainder of their turn?
In the case of either trip or fatigue, the psuedo-Daze effect seems overly punitive.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Do we have any rules that state that a full round action that's interrupted before the character has actually taken any actions removes all remaining actions for that character for the remainder of their turn?
Yes, we do.
When someone casts summon monster, they begin by declaring a full-round action. If they provoke an AoO (just like we're talking about here), they can end up with a concentration check that can cost them the spell. They do not then get to go back and decide to do something else with their action(s).
Do we have any rules that state that a full round action that's interrupted before the character has actually taken any actions removes all remaining actions for that character for the remainder of their turn?Yes, we do.
When someone casts summon monster, they begin by declaring a full-round action. If they provoke an AoO (just like we're talking about here), they can end up with a concentration check that can cost them the spell. They do not then get to go back and decide to do something else with their action(s).
That, again, is different--that is a 1 round action, and is a spell, which is governed by its own set of rules.
As pointed out by someone else above, a full attack can be abandoned after the first attack, but before any subsequent attacks (the parts that explicitly change it from a standard action attack to a full round action) in order to take a move action. That's a lot closer to the charge example than either of the examples in the FAQ, or your summon monster one.
Swap "Summon Monster" for "Sorcerer casting a spell with a metamagic feat". Full-round action, interrupted, he doesn't get a do-over.
|
|
Do we have any rules that state that a full round action that's interrupted before the character has actually taken any actions removes all remaining actions for that character for the remainder of their turn?Yes, we do.
When someone casts summon monster, they begin by declaring a full-round action. If they provoke an AoO (just like we're talking about here), they can end up with a concentration check that can cost them the spell. They do not then get to go back and decide to do something else with their action(s).
That, again, is different--that is a 1 round action, and is a spell, which is governed by its own set of rules.
As pointed out by someone else above, a full attack can be abandoned after the first attack, but before any subsequent attacks (the parts that explicitly change it from a standard action attack to a full round action) in order to take a move action. That's a lot closer to the charge example than either of the examples in the FAQ, or your summon monster one.
Note: A Charge is NOT a Move action or a double Move action followed by a Standard action attack. It is a FULL ROUND action. It does not have any sub-components it can vbe divided into.
You can either Charge or not charge. You cannot do a double move then attack at +2. You cannot do a single move and attack at +2.
He started a Charge. If he had been tripped, instead of fatigued, he would have still lost his whole action. The GM can be nice, if you want to call it that, by allowing him to be able to stand up, but that is really counter to the rules.
What if he was tripped after traveling more than a single move action's distance, but outside of attack range to his target? He wouldn't be able to stand up, right? (BTW, never charge an intelligent opponent whose reach is longer than yours.)
Also, on the full attack to a single attack and a move, that is the ONLY place I know of, in the rules, that let's you change your declared action in the middle. Can you change a full-round spell you are casting after starting it?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
As awkward as it sounds, it looks like the path is in the FAQ.
It is one of those bizarre catch 22 situations. You wouldn't have provoked without taking an action that now you can't take. So did you take the action or not? Did the tree fall in the forest and make a sound?
The FAQ doesn't directly address the exact situation, but the Full Attack example is close enough for me.
No catch-22 at all. The character started to take a provoking action (moving out of a threatened square) by taking the charge action. Just because the miniature hadn't actually even moved 5 feet, doesn't mean the action was not in progress. (At my table, we actually move the miniature out of the square, then reverse that movement if the AoO prevents it.) the AoO occurs at the transition between the two squares, with the provoking creature considered to still be in the threatened square for all purposes. If the AoO prevents the completion of the action (in this case, charge), it doesn't matter: the provoking creature took the charge action. It could be held, unconscious, dead, paralysed, whatever: it still can't complete the action thanks to the AoO, but that doesn't change the action it took to provoke.