I'd rather psionics stay Dreamscarred Press' domain. They already did such a good job I don't see how Paizo could improve.
1) They stated it would be "Psychic" not "Psionic".
2) They want it to follow the base guidelines used by Divine and Arcane magic/casters, so it might turn some people off.
And the martial psychic classes will probably be MAD and have only 2-skill points per level.
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I'd rather psionics stay Dreamscarred Press' domain. They already did such a good job I don't see how Paizo could improve.
Some people want an official one (Pathfinder Society, "No 3PP" DM/GM, etc)
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Well I'll both look forward to and dread official Paizo psychics.
They have said no to Psionics, but said that eventually they will probably create a system to emulate psychic magic. I don't think they are going to do anything that really overlaps much with Dreamscarred Press, other than maybe the occasional ability.
They have said no to Psionics, but said that eventually they will probably create a system to emulate psychic magic. I don't think they are going to do anything that really overlaps much with Dreamscarred Press, other than maybe the occasional ability.
The setting does have a continent with an abundance of psychic powers and creatures, so developing said continent would kinda force their hands...
Well a continent and some of the planets will need rules for psychic magic so one day we will get it. I wish we got a psychic magic book this year instead of the ACG so we get more stuff on Castrovel, Vudra, and other places that were mentioned as being psychic magic heavy.
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It might be interesting to note that Paizo's used some of Dreamscarred Press's work in the Dragon's Demand AP. Attitudes at gaming companies can change, and I know that one major opponent of 3.5/DSP-style psionics - Mr. Reynolds - has just left the company. Maybe we'll see more interplay between the two, in the vein of what's already happened. I mean...why fix it if it's not broke, right?
I hope not, I want to see pathfinder's psychic magic not psionics, hated the rules for psionics from all past editions. I am tired of hearing about Dreamscarred Press's work on psionics, let people use them if they want but I want something different and official from Paizo.
Know that I know that Mr. Reynolds was against using the old edition versions of psionics, I am going to miss him even more.
It might be interesting to note that Paizo's used some of Dreamscarred Press's work in the Dragon's Demand AP. Attitudes at gaming companies can change, and I know that one major opponent of 3.5/DSP-style psionics - Mr. Reynolds - has just left the company. Maybe we'll see more interplay between the two, in the vein of what's already happened. I mean...why fix it if it's not broke, right?
SKR wasn't the only person who didn't like the 3.5 psionics system. And I can't see them endorsing a third party book to support there own setting. When we get psychic magic, it will be a new system developed in house by Paizo.
I have noticed that some of 3.5's "unique" psionic powers have been added to the spell lists for various classes over the last few years. So some of the cool 3.5 psionic stuff is already in Pathfinder.
As for a system, I's sure Paizo is going to do their own system. I hope it is fairly simple and matches nicely with the rest of the Pathfinder's classes and systems. I also hope that they do some sort of cross over or shout out to DP's material.
Thus the final result could be something like the recent mythic AP with instructions for "do you want to run it with psychic magic or do you want to run it with Dreamscarred/3.5 psionics)
Barring that, what exactly would "psychic magic" be? If it's just renaming regular spells, that's kind of already done, the psi ones just fail to auto-scale. Transparency so antimagic/antipsionic stuff affects the other? Already in place. Vancian, again, already done (just specialize in enchantment) as, you know, wizards or sorcerers or any other caster. Is it spell points per day? You've just done power points again. Do you expend points to maintain powers, unlike spells that have a set duration? Well that's just going right back to 2nd edition (considered overpowered by any who didn't bother reading through that kludge of a system; usually having stopped a the cover).
So what IS 'psychic magic' exactly gonna be?
THAT is the question isn't it? So...
I hope not, I want to see pathfinder's psychic magic not psionics, hated the rules for psionics from all past editions. I am tired of hearing about Dreamscarred Press's work on psionics, let people use them if they want but I want something different and official from Paizo.
Know that I know that Mr. Reynolds was against using the old edition versions of psionics, I am going to miss him even more.
Barring what Jamie listed above, what WOULD you like to see in "Psychic Magic" that Psionics doesn't do?
I would like psychic magic to be like the current magic system and use spell slots, spell powers, and supernatural abilities(telepathy) to convey psychic abilities. I don't want a psychic point system for "casting" but wouldn't mind a ki/grit/bardic music number mechanic to enhance abilities you cast from spell slots, spell powers, and/or supernatural abilities. Also using a psychic ki/grit/bardic music ability to enhance physical abilities like jumping, running, lifting, throwing, etc. and other abilities like walking on walls/water, flight, etc. for a psychic warrior type class would be cool as well.
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I'd like to see Paizo work with DSP to fit the Ultimate Psionics classes and maybe a race or 2 into Golarian.
Class wise for psychic magic I would like to see...
1)An int based caster that mems spells similar to a wizard.(Psion/Psychic)
2)A cha based spontaneous caster similar to a sorcerer.(Esper)
3)A psychic warrior class that uses psychic abilities to enhance there physical abilities.
4)A wis based caster that specializes in divination, abjuration, contemplation, and good defenses like uncanny dodge, init bonus, all good saves, etc..
5)A psychic skill monkey class of some kind.
6)A psychic healing class would be cool that also can paralyze, stun, cause non-lethal damage, etc. to living creatures and psychically alter forms/shapes in themselves and other living creatures.
psychic related bloodlines, mysteries, etc.
psychic magic archetypes for all the other classes.
A couple of psychic related races not including the Lashunta.
Class wise for psychic magic I would like to see...
1)An int based caster that mems spells similar to a wizard.(Psion/Psychic)
2)A cha based spontaneous caster similar to a sorcerer.(Esper)
3)A psychic warrior class that uses psychic abilities to enhance there physical abilities.
4)A wis based caster that specializes in divination, abjuration, contemplation, and good defenses like uncanny dodge, init bonus, all good saves, etc..
5)A psychic skill monkey class of some kind.
6)A psychic healing class would be cool that also can paralyze, stun, cause non-lethal damage, etc. to living creatures and psychically alter forms/shapes in themselves and other living creatures.
psychic related bloodlines, mysteries, etc.
psychic magic archetypes for all the other classes.
A couple of psychic related races not including the Lashunta.
So you want a bunch of archetypes, s'more archetypes, and then some bonus class features and races? 'Cause all of those things you outlined? Those are archetypes. They're not sufficiently different to be classes.
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Funny enough about 3/4ths of that you can get out of Ult Psionics.
"Don't knock it till ya tried it" comes to mind here. Lots of folks consider currently existing psionics to be better balanced than anything in the CRB. You don't keep hearing about it for no reason; good amount of fun classes with a simple, very much d20 system (unless counting HP was too difficult in which case vancian-users should probably remember they have hitdice and hitpoints, not just spells per day, you don't die when you run out).
The cheapest/easiest thing for Paizo to do would probably be to just allow the existing stuff into PFS. That would be, what, half a paragraph on the FAQ/newsletter worth of work total?
Barring that, what exactly would "psychic magic" be? If it's just renaming regular spells, that's kind of already done, the psi ones just fail to auto-scale. Transparency so antimagic/antipsionic stuff affects the other? Already in place. Vancian, again, already done (just specialize in enchantment) as, you know, wizards or sorcerers or any other caster. Is it spell points per day? You've just done power points again. Do you expend points to maintain powers, unlike spells that have a set duration? Well that's just going right back to 2nd edition (considered overpowered by any who didn't bother reading through that kludge of a system; usually having stopped a the cover).
So what IS 'psychic magic' exactly gonna be?
Hey...I own the DSP Ultimate Psionics, so I am not knocking it. But it just strikes me as very very unlikely Paizo is going to make DSP's work as official for PFS or anything else. I don't think they have done so for any 3pp so far, and more than likely they are going to want to make their own go at such a product. It's a viable niche that Paizo has expressed interest in exploring, but has held off on for now. I expect when they do so, it won't be simply the arcane/divine magic system with the numbers filed of, but will probably incorporate new mechanics...they just won't be spellpoint mechanics.
In Ult psionics they introduce archetypes, domains, subdomains, and even a bloodline for core classes.
Maybe the Advanced Class Guide is the testing ground for some of the mechanics they would use?
But yeah Psychic Classes being closer to Archetypes/Alternate Classes is possible.
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It's a rough market for Paizo to gamble on. The little that's been said so far, Paizonics will follow the existing spellcasting mechanics. For some that's great. For others, that's a dead product. I - for one - won't spent money on a same-mechanics book. More spells? Sure, I have done, but that's like a monster manual to me; some resource to dip into to make an encounter unique.
So. Paizo knows the market is split on this. It's worse than themed APs like Mummy's Mask and Iron Gods. Folks (like me) don't cancel their subscriptions despite having zero interest in them. Inertia carries the sales to a degree. A rulebook is different... it mostly stands on its own. While Mythic as a system was also risky, it had enough "clever" involved to sell. For instance being usable at low levels, not just "epic".
Paizo knows very, very well how to extract money from us. They seem warm and cuddly - and on a personal level they are - but never mistake the corporation for something (significantly) other than a means for feeding its employees and putting roofs over their heads.
Paizonics may not do that.
I personally don't get the urge for more-of-the-same, but this question keeps coming up so some do. Me, my money is on new. New mechanics, new subsystems, new toys to learn and master. I don't want a druid who gets his spells from dreams and they're all dream-themed. I want a narcomancer who can "weave" visions, fantasies, and hopes. He should be able to shape moments of lucid-dreaming, allowing him to slip back and forth between the waking world and that of sleep, dragging portions of the one into he other. How? Who the heck knows? But a bunch of dream-flavored spells aren't it. I crave something exotic, something with "wow". But that's me.
This was said a while ago but James Jacobs said if he they did psychic magic it would be different that the old psionics rules. He also mention the classes would be based on real world words and concepts.
Here is a list of the examples.
Telepath
Fakir
Seer
Mystic
Mesmerist
Psychic
Medium
Swamii
I would still like a class called an Esper.
This was said a while ago but James Jacobs said if he they did psychic magic it would be different that the old psionics rules. He also mention the classes would be based on real world words and concepts.
Here is a list of the examples.
Telepath
Fakir
Seer
Mystic
Mesmerist
Psychic
Medium
SwamiiI would still like a class called an Esper.
For what you want I suggest you just reflavor classes as psychics and use these names.
I don't to "reflavor" classes, I want new classes.
While I like the idea of psychic themed archetypes, I still want new classes as well.
When I said I want psychic classes that are like wizards/sorcerers, I am talking about how they cast there spells not the way all there class abilities work. Though if all the psychic classes work like spontaneous casters with different mental stats as there caster stat, I would be fine with that. As long as they have a psychic class that uses int, one that uses cha, and one that uses wis, I will be happy.
I don't to "reflavor" classes, I want new classes.
While I like the idea of psychic themed archetypes, I still want new classes as well.
When I said I want psychic classes that are like wizards/sorcerers, I am talking about how they cast there spells not the way all there class abilities work. Though if all the psychic classes work like spontaneous casters with different mental stats as there caster stat, I would be fine with that. As long as they have a psychic class that uses int, one that uses cha, and one that uses wis, I will be happy.
An idea might be to take the Ultimate Psionic classes and adapt the power points to casting using progression of similar classes.
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Fakir- would make a good psychic monk/ascetics that use ki with/as psychic abilities. Maybe they can create weapons out of psychic force or create psychic energy blast.
Telepath- They should get telepathy as a supernatural ability wich improves with power and range as they level. I am not sure if this one should be a full spell caster, bard level spell caster, or just relay on spell powers and supernatural abilities.
Seer- Would be a divination specialist(not the same as the wizard version), wisdom based for there abilities, and bonuses on init, ref saves, perception, sense movie, etc.
Mystic-Maybe a psychic warrior or psychic magic user version of a magus.
Mesmerist- Class that specializes in mind control/mind-affecting effects. Would be cha based and have bonuses on bluff and diplomacy checks. Maybe a full up caster or maybe similar to the beguiler or maybe just uses spell powers and supernatural abilities.
Swami- A psychic caster with a religious twist in flavor and/or abilities.
Psychic- Int based full spellcaster, maybe memorized spells, maybe spontaneous caster.
Medium- A psychic magic user who focuses on spirits, the spirit world, and undead, fey, outsiders, etc. I would make it cha based. Though it's relationship with spirits should be different then the shaman's.
You know, Psionics/Psychic magic comes up often enough you'd think they would just do it already. It's arguably one of the most demanded subjects for Paizo to tackle, yet they haven't touched it yet. I suspect, that they might feel they waited too long to handle it, especially with the popularity DSP has for their Psionics.
When it comes time for Paizo to tackle Psychic Magic, I suspect it will similar to what they've published before.
Namely, a talent/discovery/rage power-like mechanic.
I suspect, that you'd have a base class, the 'Psychic' with a bunch of archetypes to fill in niches. But the core class ability would probably be a 6th level spellcasting class, with some sort of 'Psychic Focus' choices.
The Focuses would be like the Dragon Totem powers for the Barbarian, taking them in builds off the previous ones to help fit traditional psychic roles. These may, or may not, be powered via some sort of point system (arcana pool, ki pool, bardic performance etc). I'd imagine some of them would be passive, while others would be active.
Toss in some sort of 'Psychic Style' ala Ranger, and you'd have your Psychic Magic Class.
There are other things they might toss in there as well, maybe a curse or mystery, like the Oracle, or an Exploit like system from the Arcanist; I feel these are all kind of precursors to the eventual Psychic Magic class when it debuts.
Well it is a big part of Vudra, the Darklands, Castrovel, and some other places in the Pathfinder setting. I am sure there are reasons why they haven't done it yet. But regardless of the reasons I doubt we will see any new classes for awhile simply because of the ACG coming out this year.
I'd like to see Paizo work with DSP to fit the Ultimate Psionics classes and maybe a race or 2 into Golarian.I suspect that's highly in the "Ain't Gonna Happen Until I get a Sun Tan in Irrisen" category.
Um... might want to change that phrase. You actually *can* tan during the winter as the snow reflects the UV rays quite nicely. It's rare, as you kind of need to be unclothed outside, but there are people who do it up here in Alaska.
I love Paizo, they have made some of the best products for this style of table top gaming. I do enjoy DSP psionics but I would love to see a PF version.
Psychic Magic. . . Just. . . Seems. . . . Like arcane or divine magic. . . I don't really see a point in three separate magic classifications. . . It's not like monsters have arcane resistance or divine resistance, so all it is, is a way to segregate casters. . . (wow this turned into a rant. . . )
Personally, I enjoyed the balance of the augment system of 3.5/DSP, yes you could get more use out of it but more often then not you blew through them in a few encounters which is legit as well. DSP did a GREAT job with their "talent" system, it gave players an little bit of leeway in areas. Things like this would be amazing!
This I agree with.
I tried to use psionics in 1st edition. Not very fun.I tried to use it in 2nd edition. Fun sometimes but broken
Third edition was an improvement but still not Good.
However, the adreamscarred version is fun, well thought out, and not broken.
If it were based on the same Arcane/Divine method it seems to me that it would be just another spell list. Pretty much just a wizard that does not have Arcane Failure. That does not sound like fun to me. It sounds boring.
How about until I can get a sun tan without either freezing to death or being made into dinner by the locals? :)Um... might want to change that phrase. You actually *can* tan during the winter as the snow reflects the UV rays quite nicely. It's rare, as you kind of need to be unclothed outside, but there are people who do it up here in Alaska.I'd like to see Paizo work with DSP to fit the Ultimate Psionics classes and maybe a race or 2 into Golarian.I suspect that's highly in the "Ain't Gonna Happen Until I get a Sun Tan in Irrisen" category.
Works for me :P
I'm perfectly happy with DSP.
But, I'd be willing to playtest Paizo's psionic system, even if I never use it.
Whatever book they do I doubt it will be a hardback. You don't need an entire corebook sized set of rules to cover psychics (or whatever). Three base classes with some archetypes and PrC's will be enough. A lot of psychic (or whatever) stuff can already be done with the existing rules so I doubt they're going to reinvent the wheel (plus, I'm assuming, they probably don't really feel like churning out 200+ pages of psychic "spells").
I'm sure they'll do something eventually because otherwise all those places where they've already mentioned that such things exist just become white blanks on the map; they might as well not even be there then. I highly doubt they'll use another companies system, not matter how good; especially for Society play. That can of worms is just too big.
Yes, but that hardcover book would be useful when you add psychic related player races, monsters, magic/tech items, feats, archetypes, spells/abilities, places, and psychic phenomenon along with those classes, archetypes, and PrCs.
Design Manager
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I know when I interviewed Erik Mona about this subject at PAX Prime last year he was pretty clear that
a) It would be in the realm of psychic magic but probably would have very little in common, both mechanically and flavor-wise, with psionics as done by DSP
and
b) It was definitely something they wanted to do at some point, but was currently not even visible on the horizon as part of their product line.
So I think we will see something eventually as there are several Paizo employees interested in doing it, but it seems like it won't really be what people familiar with 3.5 and DSP would recognize as psionics. It'll be interesting to see what direction they go with it and at what point in the course of things they'll decide to start development on it.
Yes, but that hardcover book would be useful when you add psychic related player races, monsters, magic/tech items, feats, archetypes, spells/abilities, places, and psychic phenomenon along with those classes, archetypes, and PrCs.
But not needed. You could say the same for just about anything: gunsslingers, tian xia martial arts, Numerian super science, Mwangi animism/totemism, evocation specialists, etc., etc.
All that stuff is interesting but you don't need a hardcover detailing every possible permutation of its use. That's what 3.5 did, bloat themselves into uselessness. We don't need a hardback for something that's only going to pop up in two or three places on the planet.
To be honest, that's what I didn't care for about the Gunslinger. Not the mechanics but the notion of making a core class for something that's ultra-rare outside of one point in the world. Most gunslinging, outside of the Mana Wastes and what-not, is likely represented by the Amateur Gunslinger feat. But once you make it a core class you've made it as common as any fighter.
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Design Manager
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Anyone else have an opinion or such?I suspect that badgering Jacobs on the subject is a good way to get on his bad side.
Definite answer, not any time soon, it looks like they've got a full schedule for the next couple of years.
If you're dead set on 3.5 style psionics, I'm very convinced that Dreamscarred is as close as you can reasonably expect to get, as I doubt that Paizo has much interest in simply repeating and tuning that work. If 3.5 style psi is what you want, stop waiting, and simply get the DSP books.
I would second this statement. Paizo has specifically said that they won't be doing 3.5 style psionics. And it would be a very poor business decision for them to do so anyways, since they'd be splitting that piece of their market with the incredibly popular Dreamscarred Press material.
If you want 3.5 style psionics, get the materials from Dreamscarred Press. They're incredibly high quality, well balanced, and imaginative, and just generally great stuff.
If you want to see what Paizo's take on mental magics is going to look like... odds are you're probably at least 1-2 years out before they even have room in their product schedule to start contemplating it.
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Yes, but that hardcover book would be useful when you add psychic related player races, monsters, magic/tech items, feats, archetypes, spells/abilities, places, and psychic phenomenon along with those classes, archetypes, and PrCs.But not needed. You could say the same for just about anything: gunsslingers, tian xia martial arts, Numerian super science, Mwangi animism/totemism, evocation specialists, etc., etc.
All that stuff is interesting but you don't need a hardcover detailing every possible permutation of its use. That's what 3.5 did, bloat themselves into uselessness. We don't need a hardback for something that's only going to pop up in two or three places on the planet.
To be honest, that's what I didn't care for about the Gunslinger. Not the mechanics but the notion of making a core class for something that's ultra-rare outside of one point in the world. Most gunslinging, outside of the Mana Wastes and what-not, is likely represented by the Amateur Gunslinger feat. But once you make it a core class you've made it as common as any fighter.
Golarion is not mandated for Pathfinder games.