Antipaladin: Shackled to the oppressive chains of debauchery?

[UllarWarlord]

There are plenty of paladin debate threads. This is not another one of those, sort of. And in a way, it is. It is a way of discussing some potential issues I may have with the antipaladin class.

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NOTE: IN NO WAY DO I ENDORSE PLAYING AS AN ANTIPALADIN EXCEPT UNDER VERY CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. IN NO WAY DO I RECOGNIZE THIS AS A NORMAL PLAYABLE CLASS.

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Now, let me begin by saying I've always been fascinated by the paladin class. I see it as a roleplaying challenge that can be quite fun, yet challenging in its own way, to make work. It also is a challenge to have one's code not interfere with the rest of the party.

One cannot say that all wizards are the same, for sure. Neither are all rogues, fighters, etc. I find paladins to be similar. If not in class abilities, than in personality and beliefs. All paladins (in Golarion at least) serve a deity. The deity can vary widely in his/her/its philosophy, and may not even be Lawful Good. This can affect one's code drastically, depending on the deity's slant. However, I have found they can make effective characters, far from the cries of 'sticks in the mud' that bad players have perpetuated.

Then we come to the other side of the coin. Antipaladins.

Seeing as it is merely an alternate class, one would think that the same would be true, just in a different way.

As for me, I'm not so sure. Antipaladins, regardless of their deity, are firmly rooted in a Chaotic Evil alignment. They can't change, unless they want to retrain and/or lose all class abilities. They have to stay in their cesspool of hatred. Forever.

Let's look at their code of conduct, shall we?

Antipaladin Code of Conduct wrote:

An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

While the character is in essence CE, this feels very restrictive. Even moreso than a paladin's code, if I may be so bold. He always has to put himself first, which as a general rule precludes cooperation, depending on your GM. He cannot ever commit a good act that is out of pure altruism - this is limiting as well. Perhaps not as much of a problem for some, of course.

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I suppose what this boils down to is, can antipaladins be as diverse and as not-2D as a paladin can be? Can they be a rewarding roleplaying experience? Can worshipping a CN deity, and thus being more chaotic than evil, mitigate this?

I'd like to hear the interwebz' thoughts on this.

[Katydid]

I'm giggling to myself over the thought of a Utilitarianist antipaladin performing good acts with the intent of serving his own selfish interests. Like, oh I don't know, Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

Or, ooo, what about an antipaladin who performs good acts while remaining entirely convinced that they're evil and sadistic?

"I made you cookies. Ha-ha! Suffer from the diabetes I'll be giving you in a decade, wretch!"

"I'm taking out the dog, dear. If I meet an early demise, my eternal absence will inflict a lifetime of suffering and longing as you linger over my grave."

"Ah, this old lady needs help walking across the road! I shall grant her assistance so through her survival she will continue to waste her family's precious resources."

[Louis Lyons]

Katydid wrote:

I'm giggling to myself over the thought of a Utilitarianist antipaladin performing good acts with the intent of serving his own selfish interests. Like, oh I don't know, Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

Or, ooo, what about an antipaladin who performs good acts while remaining entirely convinced that they're evil and sadistic?

"I made you cookies. Ha-ha! Suffer from the diabetes I'll be giving you in a decade, wretch!"

"I'm taking out the dog, dear. If I meet an early demise, my eternal absence will inflict a lifetime of suffering and longing as you linger over my grave."

"Ah, this old lady needs help walking across the road! I shall grant her assistance so through her survival she will continue to waste her family's precious resources."

I just pictured an antipaladin saving children from an orphanage while cackling and yelling to the surrounding crowd "Bwa-Ha-Ha! Now SUFFER as these miserable little wretches exacerbate the city's overcrowding, crime and drain its municipal resources! All Hail Rovagug!"

[Samasboy1]

Antipaladin code wrote:

An antipaladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take actions someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An antipaladin’s code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided such actions don’t interfere with his goals.

Personally, I think it gives you great room.

You give to charity, but only to keep a good name in the community so that you can further your nefarious plot.

The city is full of paladins, but you don't just chop heads due to not wanting to die from overwhelming numbers.

Whenever you act in any "good" way, you can say you were doing it as a means to your own ends.

Whenever you don't take an opportunity to due evil, you can say you were avoiding complications on your way to the even more evil end goal.

[The Indescribable]

Seems to me that it all depends on flavor, An antipaladin could very easily save those orphans with the intent of using the prestige he gets from it to ingratiate himself with the locals as he slowly builds a dark bastion of evil, or even cooperate with the other PCs with the firmly rooted knowledge that it would take years to accumulate the vast wealth he needs for his evil agenda.

[Aaron Burr]

It would seem counter productive to give a chaotic character a code of conduct they couldn't outright ignore. And I can only imagine what goals an Anti-Paladin of Calistria, Norgorber or even Besmara would have. They'd definitely be different then the destructive evil for evil's sake I at least normally think of as an Anti-Paladin.

[FuelDrop]

Yeah, the problem with anti-paladins is that by rigidly following their code they betray their chaotic alignment, then fall because they're no longer chaotic evil, or they rebel against their code and fall because, well, they're not following their code.

[The Indescribable]

I have friends who would argue that Lawful means the law, while I've always looked at it as a personal code, in this case the code used above becomes a very tiny limitation on an evil character, you can do ANYTHING you just need to justify it, while a normal paladin can sit there and slaughter any innocents and is SCREWED period. Simply speaking, the antipaladin is exactly as it should be, a force for evil turning every action it takes to his own use,

[The Pale King]

Katydid wrote:

I'm giggling to myself over the thought of a Utilitarianist antipaladin performing good acts with the intent of serving his own selfish interests. Like, oh I don't know, Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

Or, ooo, what about an antipaladin who performs good acts while remaining entirely convinced that they're evil and sadistic?

"I made you cookies. Ha-ha! Suffer from the diabetes I'll be giving you in a decade, wretch!"

"I'm taking out the dog, dear. If I meet an early demise, my eternal absence will inflict a lifetime of suffering and longing as you linger over my grave."

"Ah, this old lady needs help walking across the road! I shall grant her assistance so through her survival she will continue to waste her family's precious resources."

I am playing this character now. Maybe not to this extreme, but I love the idea of being Greed the Antipaladin. I am pretty sure my GM would go along with it too. Though I am worried at how much use I'll get out of Smite Good.

[Helaman]

Louis Lyons wrote:

Katydid wrote:

I'm giggling to myself over the thought of a Utilitarianist antipaladin performing good acts with the intent of serving his own selfish interests. Like, oh I don't know, Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

Or, ooo, what about an antipaladin who performs good acts while remaining entirely convinced that they're evil and sadistic?

"I made you cookies. Ha-ha! Suffer from the diabetes I'll be giving you in a decade, wretch!"

"I'm taking out the dog, dear. If I meet an early demise, my eternal absence will inflict a lifetime of suffering and longing as you linger over my grave."

"Ah, this old lady needs help walking across the road! I shall grant her assistance so through her survival she will continue to waste her family's precious resources."

I just pictured an antipaladin saving children from an orphanage while cackling and yelling to the surrounding crowd "Bwa-Ha-Ha! Now SUFFER as these miserable little wretches exacerbate the city's overcrowding, crime and drain its municipal resources! All Hail Rovagug!"

LMAO

[FuelDrop]

Hmmm... Does helping someone move count as a good act? I'm just thinking of forging a message from one BBEG to another asking for help moving his evil lair, and having the AP BBEG fall because they helped someone.

[swoosh]

Frankly I think it's a bit silly on its face that a character who must be chaotic evil is then bound to a strict set of rules and guidelines on how he should act.

If your DM is strict about codes it can be a pain in the ass though, I remember once reading an analogy (albeit for 3.5's Paladin of Slaughter, which is pretty similiar): "The paladin falls if he kicks the puppy, but the [antipaladin] falls if he pets the puppy".

[Gwaithador]

In my own campaign, I run several different groups of characters all played by the eight to nine players. I'll run one group of adventurers in one part of the game world and a different group of characters might hear of their exploits or be affected by those exploits in some manner. There are occasions when character individual interests may take them in a different direction and I end up "mixing" groups. this only occurs when the level range is compatible. It's lead to a very dynamic world with setting altering events with continuity from story to story.

One of the PCs is Tiefling sorcerer who is the 'rightful' ruler of the Horned Lands. In my Greyhawk setting, after Iuz's conquest of the Horned Society and the defeat of the Hierarchs, there was a period time in which the Horned Lands broke free from Iuz's empire when the demigod disappeared for a time. The Horned Empire became a hereditary monarchy during this period. The Horned Empire lasted over 300 years before the Empire of Iuz reclaimed the lands thanks to a betrayal within the royal family.

The Tiefling character is LN. His usual allies are of good alignment. I had the other players make up new characters to participate in this part of the campaign. They all share a common goal, deposing the current ruler of the Horned Lands. The ruler is a lich and a direct relation to the Tiefling character. She usurped the throne less than a century ago and transformed herself into a lich. She served Iuz until recently. She's orchestrated a rebellion and declared her independence.

With that preamble out of the way, the players consist of the aforementioned Tiefling Sorcerer, LN; A human rogue/assassin NE; A Human Inquisitor LN who has a carefully cultivated false identity as a LE Inquisitor of another faith and a human antipaladin CE of Iuz. They all have one common goal: end the reign of the lich queen. Thus, within that framework the antipaladin can cooperate with the group without losing his status as antipaladin or otherwise failing to cooperate with the party.

It doesn't mean he hasn't done some awful things, and some of those awful things have been on the sly. Should they succeed in killing the lich queen, everybody knows all bets are off, so they're all scheming on the side for that eventual confrontation. It's quite possible two or three may stick together as 'allies' if not friends. It is equally possible, they all turn on one another.

Here's an example of the antipaladin "cooperating with the group" and "serving his own ends." Recently the PCs were faced with either allying with undead hunting priestess of the goddess Wee Jas or siding with an old noble tiefling family who opposed the lich queen but are all vampires. The vampirism is a curse brought about because of their opposition to the lich queen 100 years ago. While the other PCs were off making personal arrangements, the antipaladin ambushed the priestesses and succeeded in killing three (one escaped), thus ensuring the alliance with the vampires. The antipaladin justified it as the vampires were more capable and knowledgeable; he was helping the other PCs getting over being squeamish about working with vampires by "solving their moral quandary."

Note, he didn't do it in front of the group or force their hand to act against him resulting in an immediate party free for all. He bided his time and then committed his treachery. A smartly played antipaladin isn't a party buster if the GM ensures there's a certain amout of player compatibility and a common goal- in this case, they all want to take out the lich queen, each for a different reason: the tiefling so he can rule, the assassin because he's trying to restore the city to its former glory,turn it into a mercantile center and not this half-dead thing it's become; the inquisitor who truly serves the good Shield Lands and wants to weaken the Horned Lands to save what's left of the Shield Lands and the antipaladin, who serves the interest of Iuz( because failing to do so means his destruction).

[Orfamay Quest]

FuelDrop wrote:

Hmmm... Does helping someone move count as a good act?

Good acts are fine. It's altruistic good acts that are an issue. I could easily see Don Psychorleonepath the Anti-Paladin helping everyone in the neighborhood move. "Some day, and that day may never come... I may call upon you to do a service for me. But, until that day, accept this, as a gift."

[Mechagamera]

I view the antipaladin as less having a code and more of being possessed by the demonic forces that give him/her power. It is like you are the driver of a car, but there is a demon on the break pedal, deciding when (or if) you are going to stop. CE can be sneaky, so the antipaladin can do "good" stuff with the demon's blessing. He/she can even fight with the demon for control, but this has risks, as the demon can "slam on the brakes" (i.e., take away the power) or refuse to step on the breaks, so that any little thing will make the antipaladin frothing mad with rage.

"Demon possessed guy" isn't much easier to have in the party than "guy with CE code", but I have seen parties work around members being bit by vampires and werewolves, so this should be doable as well.

[FarmerGiles]

I've always thought it made more sense for "anti-paladins" to be Lawful Evil. IMO they should be the reliable servants of evil gods, not the bizarro version of paladins.

Being 'lawful' in the alignment sense has nothing to do with following the often arbitrary and chaotic secular laws of the land. A lawful-neutral modron does not start believing that pi is equal to 3.0 just because the local magistrate passed a law to make it so.

[Orfamay Quest]

swoosh wrote:

Frankly I think it's a bit silly on its face that a character who must be chaotic evil is then bound to a strict set of rules and guidelines on how he should act.

I don't think it's that much of a problem if you bear in mind that the the antipaladin is not necessarily following the code "willingly," but following it under threat of the wrath of his abyssal masters.

Imagine what it's like to work for a James Bond villain. "The one who kills James Bond gets to live." Scaramanga/Blofeld/Drax has armies of minons and no regard for their lives whatsoever. S/B/D has a task he wants to accomplish and if you thwart him, or even fail to give your best efforts, he will flay your soul from your body and use it for toilet paper. On the other hand, if you please him, he will reward you beyond the dreams of avarice and tyranny. Come out of hyperspace too soon and Darth Vader will not court-martial you, but instead crush your windpipe right on the bridge in front of your crew.

This, of course, creates an interesting chaotic tension in the antipaladin. He needs to make sure that the demon running him is happy, which is not exactly the same thing as doing what he wants. He needs to make the demon think that he is obeying and anticipating the demon's every whim, while at the same time covering up any instance where he fails to do what the demon would want.

And demons don't play fair -- it's perfectly in character for S/B/D to punish the antipaladin for something that the antipaladin didn't even know had gone wrong.

So as a chaotic and evil character,.... it comes down to what you can get away with before the boss notices that you aren't doing what he wants and you fall. Of course, since this is a very powerful demon we're talking about, and as an antipaladin you're probably a fairly important servitor, this means he's going to be watching you closely. It may help if you've got a fall guy or two -- "don't kill me, kill the navigator who set the course through hyperspace!" Or maybe make him think this is all a cunning plan of yours.

So the real question is, do you think you can get away with saving children from the burning orphanage? And what will you say if he calls you on it?

[Major_Blackhart]

I found the evil Anti-Paladin Aasimar in Lastwall was easy enough to deal with.
He was a devout Gorumite, respected strength, and even had a sense of honor. He followed Gorum's tenets of the faith closely, as well as the code.
His organization, the Thousand Blades, a quasi-religious militant cloak and daggers group, was in constant contact with Hundux Half-Mann's forces in Wyvernsting, as well as groups within Lastwall of a ranking militant nature.
He felt that Lastwall was close to becoming the perfect sort of place for an eternal battle, where men could face men, not the horrors of the world wound, test themselves, set themselves free, make the best and worst of them.
Basically, he made it his job to ensure that neither side got the best outcome in Lastwall, that it stayed the proverbial meat grinder. He did that by arming and advising the Murdered Child Clan, therefore ensuring that the Empty Hand or the Black Sun would never really reach full potential and unite the other clans. He also ensured that the enemy remembered that Lastwall was still around by organizing secret raids into Orc territory.

[Starbuck_II]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

swoosh wrote:

Frankly I think it's a bit silly on its face that a character who must be chaotic evil is then bound to a strict set of rules and guidelines on how he should act.

I don't think it's that much of a problem if you bear in mind that the the antipaladin is not necessarily following the code "willingly," but following it under threat of the wrath of his abyssal masters.

Imagine what it's like to work for a James Bond villain. "The one who kills James Bond gets to live." Scaramanga/Blofeld/Drax has armies of minons and no regard for their lives whatsoever. S/B/D has a task he wants to accomplish and if you thwart him, or even fail to give your best efforts, he will flay your soul from your body and use it for toilet paper. On the other hand, if you please him, he will reward you beyond the dreams of avarice and tyranny. Come out of hyperspace too soon and Darth Vader will not court-martial you, but instead crush your windpipe right on the bridge in front of your crew.

This, of course, creates an interesting chaotic tension in the antipaladin. He needs to make sure that the demon running him is happy, which is not exactly the same thing as doing what he wants. He needs to make the demon think that he is obeying and anticipating the demon's every whim, while at the same time covering up any instance where he fails to do what the demon would want.

And demons don't play fair -- it's perfectly in character for S/B/D to punish the antipaladin for something that the antipaladin didn't even know had gone wrong.

So as a chaotic and evil character,.... it comes down to what you can get away with before the boss notices that you aren't doing what he wants and you fall. Of course, since this is a very powerful demon we're talking about, and as an antipaladin you're probably a fairly important servitor, this means he's going to be watching you closely. It may help if you've got a fall guy or two -- "don't kill me, kill the navigator...

Actually, an ally summons a Dretch and you qualify for blackguard; Why would a Anti=Paladin be harder?

[MrSin]

UllarWarlord wrote:

I suppose what this boils down to is, can antipaladins be as diverse and as not-2D as a paladin can be?

Hmm... Can the guy with a code that lets him do just about anything as long as he comes up with a reason why it benefits him personally do just about anything?

Just about.

[Orfamay Quest]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Actually, an ally summons a Dretch and you qualify for blackguard; Why would a Anti=Paladin be harder?

Because dretches don't have the ability to grant the sheer power of awesome that is anti-paladinhood. They can, however, convey a message to their masters that you are open to making a deal in exchange for the power you crave.

There's even literary precedent for this -- Mephistopheles is the traditional demon-recruiter, but the power s/he grants comes not from him but from Satan. In Pathfinder, that's the role of a contract devil. In neither case are you the poor supplicant dealing with The Man Himself, but only with one of his many minions.