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I was reading up about the 5-foot step and was wondering, can you take a 5-foot step in response to someone else making a 5-foot step, assuming you would be able to do so if this was your own turn?
Example:
PlayerA and PlayerB spent the first round next to eachother and staring eachother down. (None of them have prepared ANY action.)
On round2 PlayerA takes a 5-foot step away from PlayerB, so he can cast something out of AoO range.
> Can PlayerB take a 5-foot step straight after PlayerA, but before he knows what PlayerA wishes to do?
The rules in the Core rulebook don't appear to be very clear on this. They IMPLY that you cannot - however the wording states that "You can take a 5-foot step before, during or after your other actions in the round", so you could imply that "after" or "before" your actions would include your opponents actions.
I know about the Step Up combat feat, however this ruleset wouldn't invalidate said feat, as picking this feat would simply mean you could (essentially) take two 5-foot steps in a given combat round (5-foot step during your turn, then 5-foot step as an "immediate action" during your opponents turn in response to his 5-foot step)
Example:
PlayerA walks up to PlayerB, smacks him in the face.
PlayerB takes a 5-foot step back out of AoO range
> If PlayerA has Step Up, he can 5-foot step up at this point (while forfitting his 5-foot step or 5 ft of movement next turn) otherwise he wouldn't be able to close the distance because he already performed a movement last turn.
>> PlayerB starts casting something~~~~
TL;DR: Can you perform a 5-foot step (assuming you haven't performed any "movement" this round) during an opponents turn?
You can only take a 5' step during your turn except in the case of certain abilities (such as Step Up) and readied actions.
The rules in the Core rulebook don't appear to be very clear on this.
ombat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:
When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Seems pretty clear to me, in the CRB.
The rules in the Core rulebook don't appear to be very clear on this.ombat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:
When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.
The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Seems pretty clear to me, in the CRB.
Of course it is clear to you, you're ignoring the fact that a 5ft step isn't even an action.
Table: Actions in Combat
No Action
Delay
5-foot step
You can do NOTHING (action or not an action) when it is not your turn, with the following exceptions specifically called out.
speaking (a specifically spelled out free action exception)
Immediate actions (specifically addressed)
AoOs (specifically addressed "not actions")
Doesn't matter that five foot steps are not an action.
I think it would be a really bad idea to allow it.
GM: "The archer fires a volley of arrows at you from a few feet away."
Player: "Ouch! OK, my turn. I five foot step towards him and full-attack."
GM: "No, as soon as you're next to him, he steps away five feet."
Player: "I keep going."
GM: "You can't. You already took a five foot step. OK, his turn. He fires another three arrows at you..."
I think it would be a really bad idea to allow it.
GM: "The archer fires a volley of arrows at you from a few feet away."
Player: "Ouch! OK, my turn. I five foot step towards him and full-attack."
GM: "No, as soon as you're next to him, he steps away five feet."
Player: "I keep going."
GM: "You can't. You already took a five foot step. OK, his turn. He fires another three arrows at you..."
Yeah, totally agree. It would be a horrible idea to let people perform 5ft steps whenever they like.
But I think the rules is silent on the matter.
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Moving 5 feet may be a free action but w/o any specific feats, you can only "move" on your turn. If everyone was allowed to 5 foot step out of turn, combat would get too confusing and casters a little too broken.
Attacks of opportunity can be taken out of turn but you need combat reflexes to get more than 1. But that is off topic
Step up is really the only way to take a 5 foot step out of turn but someone has to be 5 foot stepping away from you. In the APG, there is a second feat in this arc, following step, that allows you to move up to 10 feet in "following an adjacent foe" and it does not count against movement on your next turn (p 160-161).
Please point out to me where in this it says you can perform it on someone else's turn.:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Because it has to otherwise you can't. That's exactly why this does call it out:
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
Unless you have the Step Up feat you CAN NOT take a 5-foot-step when it isn't your turn.
PRD says:
Take 5-Foot StepYou can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Note the bold - it's only during your turn - feats (by design) break rules in specific ways so if you a feat that says otherwise - follow that text.
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Alright, I read through the replies and pretty much came to the conclusion that you cannot perform a 5-foot step without either a Prepared Action or the Step Up combat feat:
- 1. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. (CORE p189)
- States that a 5-foot step revolves (and is made) around your other actions, and doesn't state anything about using it in an opponent's turn without doing anything else.
2. Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.) (CORE p178)
- States that the only unaltered action exceptions involve AoO and SIA (though not mentioning Free Actions or Immediate Actions)
3. Following Step Combat Feat ~~~~ Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up. (APG p160-161)
- While all the other rules are a little vague at best, this feat's text specifically lists Step Up as the only way one can follow an opponent with a 5-foot step. In other words; I was wrong. ;-)
TL;DR: No, you cannot take a 5-foot step unless you're performing an action before, during, or after said step.
Thanks to all who replied, and a special thanks to Ulfen Death Squad who mentioned the Following Step feat ;)
I still like the idea of it, so probably will let my group run with it at some point to see if there are any real balance pitfalls with it.
Since a feat exists called Step-up that specifies that:
Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability. If you take this step, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn. If you take an action to move during your next turn, subtract 5 feet from your total movement.
I would say that, no, you can not take your 5-foot step on another players turn, even if it is classified as "no action"
This entire situation is muddied a bit by the fact that the example for Attacks of Opportunity on 181 of the core rulebook states that a 5-foot step is a free action. Not that this affects that actual rules in the book and other tables, just that it is a bit odd.
Note that 5ft step is also listed under "Miscellaneous Actions"
"Miscellaneous Actions
The following actions take a variable amount of time to accomplish or otherwise work differently than other actions.
Take 5-Foot Step"
I would also like to know if you can take a 5ft step while staggered?
I would also like to know if you can take a 5ft step while staggered?
You can take a 5-foot step while staggered, yes. As long as you meet all the normal 5-foot step requirements. ;)
Alright, I read through the replies and pretty much came to the conclusion that you cannot perform a 5-foot step without either a Prepared Action or the Step Up combat feat:
1. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. (CORE p189)
- States that a 5-foot step revolves (and is made) around your other actions, and doesn't state anything about using it in an opponent's turn without doing anything else.
2. Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.) (CORE p178)
- States that the only unaltered action exceptions involve AoO and SIA (though not mentioning Free Actions or Immediate Actions)
3. Following Step Combat Feat ~~~~ Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up. (APG p160-161)
- While all the other rules are a little vague at best, this feat's text specifically lists Step Up as the only way one can follow an opponent with a 5-foot step. In other words; I was wrong. ;-)
TL;DR: No, you cannot take a 5-foot step unless you're performing an action before, during, or after said step.
Thanks to all who replied, and a special thanks to Ulfen Death Squad who mentioned the Following Step feat ;)
I still like the idea of it, so probably will let my group run with it at some point to see if there are any real balance pitfalls with it.
Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.
This is false. Normally I don't go so far as to call something that is RAW false, but it is in direct conflict with other RAW. So one of the two is false, and this seems like the false part. Since the other bit is far more central to the core of the rules.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
So, you can indeed ready an action to do something based on the trigger that an enemy does whatever, and if they 5ft step away and do whatever, you can 5ft step and follow them and perform your readied action.
So, the "normal" from the feat "Following Step" is in fact false.
Remy,
Following Step allows you to take a 10-foot step when using Steup Up so the Normal line is correct.
To put this another way: When using Step Up without Following Step you can only take a 5-step but when you use Step Up with Following Step you can take a 10-step.
The "normal" from the feat "Following Step" is correct (not false).
Remy,
Following Step allows you to take a 10-foot step when using Steup Up so the Normal line is correct.
To put this another way: When using Step Up without Following Step you can only take a 5-step but when you use Step Up with Following Step you can take a 10-step.The "normal" from the feat "Following Step" is correct (not false).
In the context that I was replying.
•While all the other rules are a little vague at best, this feat's text specifically lists Step Up as the only way one can follow an opponent with a 5-foot step. In other words; I was wrong. ;-)
Remy,
You stated the feat Following Step is not correct and was in direct conflict with RAW. It is not in direct conflict with RAW (see my earlier post). That is the point I am making (which you ignored).
Additionally, the context you quoted to which you are replying is not the full context.
Mromson appears to be indicating that the only way to follow someone when it is not the character's turn was via Step Up. That is not against RAW.
You took his third point out of context.
Remy,
You stated the feat Following Step is not correct and was in direct conflict with RAW. It is not in direct conflict with RAW (see my earlier post). That is the point I am making (which you ignored).
Additionally, the context you quoted to which you are replying is not the full context.
Mromson appears to be indicating that the only way to follow someone when it is not the character's turn was via Step Up. That is not against RAW.You took his third point out of context.
He read the bit from Following Step as stating that the only way to follow someone was with Step Up. That RAW interpretation is false. I pointed this out.
I'm not sure what your contention is.
Clearly that reading of the 'normal' entry of Following Step isn't to be read the way he was reading it, even if it can be read that way. That isn't the "right" way, as it is contradicted by other more core rules.
You can in fact follow someone without Step Up. Readied actions allow for this. Therefore any conclusions made that determine the only way to follow someone is via Step Up are false.
That is the context of his post. I'm not taking it out of context, read it again, he is reading the Following Step completely incorrectly, and trying to use his incorrect reading as supporting evidence for some position.
And I didn't ignore your earlier point, if you are paying attention, I'm agreeing with it.
It says: "Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up."
He said: "While all the other rules are a little vague at best, this feat's text specifically lists Step Up as the only way one can follow an opponent with a 5-foot step."
I said: "This is false."
Why? Because you can absolutely read "You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up" to mean 'You can only follow someone using a 5ft step if you have the Step Up feat'. That is a RAW reading... but that is also a false reading.
I didn't include the 'because it clearly means you can normally only move 5 ft with the use of step up, and following step extends it to 10ft'. Which was your point, and I agree entirely. So much so that I thought it went without saying, as it seems obvious that is what Following Step means.
Ahhh, your post did not seem to state that you were calling his interpretation of the RAW false. It seemed to state that the RAW was false.
Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.This is false. Normally I don't go so far as to call something that is RAW false, but it is in direct conflict with other RAW. and this seems like the false part. Since the other bit is far more central to the core of the rules.
I understand where you were coming from now.
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Ahhh, your post did not seem to state that you were calling his interpretation of the RAW false. It seemed to state that the RAW was false.
I understand where you were coming from now.Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.This is false. Normally I don't go so far as to call something that is RAW false, but it is in direct conflict with other RAW. and this seems like the false part. Since the other bit is far more central to the core of the rules.
I don't.
If he means that, without Step Up, the core rules allow you to 5-foot step outside your own turn (because 'readied action'), then that is not the case, because a readied action alters your initiative so that your readied action is actually 'your own turn', but your own turn has moved in the initiative order.
Malachi,
I did not say I agree with where he is coming from but now I understand that Remy is not coming from the point of view that 'The RAW is false' despite his apparently poorly worded statement that it was.
I also think Remy is misreading Mromson's post and that Mromson's post doesn't mean what Remy thinks it does. Mromson was pretty clearly explaining his revised (and correct) understanding of the rules on how a 5-foot step may be performed. Of that understanding only one method, Step Up, can be performed when it is not your turn.
Remy's post appears to disagree with this by stating that you can perform a 5-foot step using a Readied Action (something Mromson already pointed out) and thus it is not during your turn.
To me, stating that a Readied Action is also a way to follow someone with a 5-foot step when it is not your turn is making a point without a distinction and that is because Readied Actions are effectively "your turn".
In any case, I do not feel like debating that with Remy since I have wasted enough time debating things with him in recent days.
'The RAW is false'
'That RAW is false' is my point, and I stand by it.
If he means that, without Step Up, the core rules allow you to 5-foot step outside your own turn (because 'readied action'), then that is not the case, because a readied action alters your initiative so that your readied action is actually 'your own turn', but your own turn has moved in the initiative order.
Your initiative changes after your readied action. The readied action falls outside of your normal turn, indeed, your turn for that round has already past... you readied an action during it.
Your turn will fall on that initiative count in future rounds.
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In any case, I do not feel like debating that with Remy since I have wasted enough time debating things with him in recent days.Amen.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Yall don't pay attention to the text sometimes. And I compulsively correct errors. If you don't wanna debate me, stop being wrong.
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If he means that, without Step Up, the core rules allow you to 5-foot step outside your own turn (because 'readied action'), then that is not the case, because a readied action alters your initiative so that your readied action is actually 'your own turn', but your own turn has moved in the initiative order.Your initiative changes after your readied action. The readied action falls outside of your normal turn, indeed, your turn for that round has already past... you readied an action during it.
Your turn will fall on that initiative count in future rounds.
It's amazing the lengths you'll go to in an attempt to be right. Your initiative changes the split second you decide to act. Your initiative changes before your action takes place. In this case no amount of semantic dancing is going to make you right.
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It's amazing the lengths you'll go to in an attempt to be right. Your initiative changes the split second you decide to act. Your initiative changes before your action takes place. In this case no amount of semantic dancing is going to make you right.If he means that, without Step Up, the core rules allow you to 5-foot step outside your own turn (because 'readied action'), then that is not the case, because a readied action alters your initiative so that your readied action is actually 'your own turn', but your own turn has moved in the initiative order.Your initiative changes after your readied action. The readied action falls outside of your normal turn, indeed, your turn for that round has already past... you readied an action during it.
Your turn will fall on that initiative count in future rounds.
Read the rulebook, get back to me.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
What is the period of time called, the one that falls after your turn and before your next one? I suspect that just might be the period of time that is not your turn. Weird.
You can only take a 5' step during your turn except in the case of certain abilities (such as Step Up) and readied actions.
Even Gauss agrees with me.
Wait... what just happened here?
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Readied actions may be taken after your turn but before your next turn has begun.
So what does that mean? It means that there is a limit to how long the readied action may be taken after you ready an action.
What does it not mean? It does not mean that the Readied Action is not your turn.
When you perform a readied action your initiative count moves to when you took the readied action. In effect, it is now your turn.
As Cuttler stated, it is semantics but people should not state that Mromson is wrong when he got it right.
In this post Mromson listed off the occassions you can take a 5-foot step as a way of demonstrating his newfound understanding of the rules. One person appears to have decided that Mromson was "wrong" because of the semantic of "is a readied action on your turn or on their turn?". It doesn't matter.
Remy Balster, no, I do not agree with you beating up someone who got it right over a semantic argument of "is a readied action your turn or their turn". He had all the occasions of when you can take a 5-foot step correct and you chose to argue a point of semantics.
Yes, I posted that early in the thread because it is a simple way of saying it not because it is semantically correct or not. Readied action is your turn. Readied action is not your turn. Who cares? It was a point of semantics and yet over that point you chose to tell a guy he is wrong when he is 99% correct just to...what? Prove your intellectual superiority in arguing semantics?
It's amazing the lengths you'll go to in an attempt to be right. Your initiative changes the split second you decide to act. Your initiative changes before your action takes place. In this case no amount of semantic dancing is going to make you right.If he means that, without Step Up, the core rules allow you to 5-foot step outside your own turn (because 'readied action'), then that is not the case, because a readied action alters your initiative so that your readied action is actually 'your own turn', but your own turn has moved in the initiative order.Your initiative changes after your readied action. The readied action falls outside of your normal turn, indeed, your turn for that round has already past... you readied an action during it.
Your turn will fall on that initiative count in future rounds.
Read the rulebook, get back to me.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.What is the period of time called, the one that falls after your turn and before your next one? I suspect that just might be the period of time that is not your turn. Weird.
Actually, it wasn't that hard to find. You might want to take another look at your rulebook for this little nugget, it's literally directly below the part you chose to pull out:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
The good news is, I like cherries. If you want to stay out there picking more I'm not gonna argue.
Taldanrebel2187, a 5-foot step *might* actually negate the possibility of an attack. The exact circumstances of that have been in debate for a long time but depending on which school of thought you subscribe to you there is still a possibility there.
Example: Fighter (with a 5' reach) has a 30' move speed, moves all 30', and declares an attack against the Wizard.
The Wizard has a readied action to "casts a spell against anyone who attacks him".
The wizard takes a 5' step away from the wizard (is now 10' away) and casts magic missile against the Fighter. The fighter is harmed but still alive.
Now, depending on the school of thought you subscribe to the fighter has either:
1) Wasted his standard action (attack) because he cannot complete the action (out of reach).
or
2) He can choose another action (such as another move) because he never actually performed his standard action (attack).
In either case, in this example he is not attacking.
Note: I am not trying to spark a debate regarding those two schools of thought, that has been beaten to death a number of times. But regardless of which school of thought you follow there are situations where you can prevent being attacked by taking a 5-foot step as part of a readied action.
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Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
The good news is, I like cherries. If you want to stay out there picking more I'm not gonna argue.
So, the cool thing about being right, is that any rules text you quote will support my argument.
Check it out... your readied action can literally interrupt someone else's turn. It happens during their turn.
It happens after your turn, in which you readied an action. And it happens before your next turn.
Now, the consequences of using a readied action is that your initiative count changes for the rest of the encounter. it is a consequence of performing a readied action. Read: It happens after the readied action.
For further evidence, look at the verb tense in the "Consequences of readying".
Your initiative becomes the count which you took the readied action.
Your initiative changes... after... your readied action.
What does this leave us to conclude?
Ah, right... it means your readied action falls outside your normal turn. Nifty.
Taldanrebel2187, a 5-foot step *might* actually negate the possibility of an attack. The exact circumstances of that have been in debate for a long time but depending on which school of thought you subscribe to you there is still a possibility there.
Example: Fighter (with a 5' reach) has a 30' move speed, moves all 30', and declares an attack against the Wizard.
The Wizard has a readied action to "casts a spell against anyone who attacks him".
The wizard takes a 5' step away from the wizard (is now 10' away) and casts magic missile against the Fighter. The fighter is harmed but still alive.Now, depending on the school of thought you subscribe to the fighter has either:
1) Wasted his standard action (attack) because he cannot complete the action (out of reach).
or
2) He can choose another action (such as another move) because he never actually performed his standard action (attack).In either case, in this example he is not attacking.
Note: I am not trying to spark a debate regarding those two schools of thought, that has been beaten to death a number of times. But regardless of which school of thought you follow there are situations where you can prevent being attacked by taking a 5-foot step as part of a readied action.
AoO resolves first. The Wizard's readied action would provoke and therefore get him potentially hit.
Here's how this goes down
Fighter's turn -> Fighter moves 30 ft. and attacks
Wizard Readied action interrupts -> Wizard starts to cast spell
Wizard doesn't cast defensively -> AoO is provoked for attacking in melee
Fighter makes AoONext, wizard either loses spell or casts and THEN he can 5-foot. This isn't a case of a debate, it's a case of how the rules work. AoOs are always resolved first, in response to the action that provokes them. Readied actions are no different, as a readied action can provoke an attack of opportunity.
Did you see me state that the fighter has Step Up? Did you see me state that a 5-foot step *might* negate the possibility of an attack? Did you see that the wizard took a 5-foot step before casting? Perhaps you should re-read things.
Here, let me restate it for you:
Fighter does not have Step Up.
Fighter does not have Lunge.
Fighter does not have a reach weapon.
Fighter does not have anything I have not specifically outlined in the example.
Fighter has a 5-foot reach.
Fighter has a 30 foot move speed.
Wizard has readied an action to cast a spell at anyone that attacks him.
Wizard has not moved this round.
Fighter moves 30 feet and is now adjacent to the Wizard.
Fighter declares an attack against the Wizard.
Wizard's readied action goes off.
Wizard takes a 5-foot step away from the Fighter and is now 10 feet away from the fighter.
Wizard casts Magic Missile. The fighter is unable to make an AoO.
The fighter is also unable to attack using his 5-foot reach because the Wizard is too far away.
What part of that allows the Fighter to make an attack of opportunity on the wizard? None because the Wizard is not within the Fighter's threat range.
What allows the fighter to continue to make his attack? Nothing because he cannot reach the wizard.
Your statement was that a 5-foot step does not "cancel" an attack.
I have clearly shown that it CAN cancel an attack if it negates the possibility of the person completing the attack.
Please read the entire post next time.
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It's worse if the Fighter has Step Up or Step Up and Strike, because then he can interrupt with an immediate action and hit the Wizard even if he does cast defensively.
Simple thought experiment: Did the creators really intend anyone to be able to "ready a 5-foot step, if someone tries to attack me". It effectively makes a combat unable to end, if someone just keeps 5-footing away from a martial class. That's Looney Tunes physics.. and absolutely ridiculous at that.
Edit:
Upon further reading, it gets worse for the readied 5-foot action
From old d20 SRD...
"If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round."
@OP:
The player doesn't decide when a readied action goes off: The rules do. If the trigger comes up for the readied action, it goes off. If it doesn't come up, then it doesn't go off. Make the player specifically state what the trigger is. If the readied action trigger never arises, then there is no 5-foot.
Furthermore if it does go off, and if the character does 5-foot in the next round, before his initiative order comes up, then he *cannot move during his next action period*. 5-foot actions, even as a readied action, prohibit all other movement actions taken during that turn by that PC.
As a DM, you are well within your rights to restrict the believable nature of a readied action. The 9 DEX wizard wants to ready an attempt to dodge against a seasoned fighter? Make him roll Acrobatics to actually time it correctly. The barbarian wants to ready an action to end his rage at the end of combat? Roll his wisdom to see if he stops in the middle of his mad foaming rage.
Ultimately I think the rules are a set of guidelines, and as you can see above some min-maxers like to abuse RAW to pump as much as they can out of their characters. In truth you should rule what makes sense based on RAI in these situations. Just because the...
This is the rules forum, not the "physics" forum. In Physics everyone moves together simultaneously not in stop and start fashions such as in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder does not remotely obey real world physics (people can fire muzzleloaders 3 times in one round rather than the real world limit of once every 20 seconds or so, people can swim in plate mail rather than the real world limit of sinking like a stone, etc...).Now, back to your example...
Lets assume that the Fighter does have Step Up. Sequence is as follows:
1) Wizard readies an action to cast a spell on someone who attacks him. (Nice well defined readied action).
2) Fighter moves 30 and is now adjacent to the wizard.
3) Fighter declares an attack.
4) Wizard's readied action goes off.
5) Wizard 5-foot steps back
6) As an Immediate action Fighter Steps Up
7) Wizard goes: crap! and begins casting Defensively.
8) Fighter does not get an Attack of Opportunity.
9) Wizard hits the fighter with Hold Person instead of Magic Missile (he is not required to specify the spell he is readying, if he did that would make counter-spelling even more useless than it is already).
10) Fighter fails Will save and is unable to attack.
11) Wizard's initiative is now just ahead of the Fighters, and he will act next round before the fighter does.
12) Wizard and Fighter are next to each other, and none of the Fighter's buddies threaten the wizard or did anything to dissuade him from performing coup-de-grace on the fighter with the (readied) Heavy Pick that he keeps in his hand for just such occasions. Although the Fighter survives the critical hit he fails the DC24 (average damage) fort save. Enjoy. :)
This is EXACTLY how it works in RAW. If you think otherwise please cite specific rules that states how it does not.
Also, could you cite where it states that 5-foot steps taken during Step Up or a Readied action prohibit movement in the next round?
5-foot steps taken as part of a Readied Action do not in any way affect your movement in the future.
5-foot steps taken as part of Step Up only reduce your speed next turn and prevent you from taking a 5-foot step next turn. A 5-foot step does not prevent you from moving.
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The good news is, I like cherries. If you want to stay out there picking more I'm not gonna argue.Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
So, the cool thing about being right, is that any rules text you quote will support my argument.
Check it out... your readied action can literally interrupt someone else's turn. It happens during their turn.
It happens after your turn, in which you readied an action. And it happens before your next turn.
Now, the consequences of using a readied action is that your initiative count changes for the rest of the encounter. it is a consequence of performing a readied action. Read: It happens after the readied action.
For further evidence, look at the verb tense in the "Consequences of readying".
Your initiative becomes the count which you took the readied action.
Your initiative changes... after... your readied action.
What does this leave us to conclude?
Ah, right... it means your readied action falls outside your normal turn. Nifty.
EDIT: Cripes my tablet made a mess of that...
A couple things to note:
1 Your reading comprehension is horrible
2 Saying "I'm right" doesn't actually make you right. I still can't figure out why this is the standard tactic around here.
Now, you can carry on being wrong and thinking you're right. Heck, there might even be a few misguided souls who agree with you. I think the actual rules are pretty clear to everyone else. I your need to have the last word, so go ahead. The case against you has been sufficiently proven by the RAW.
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A couple things to note:
1 Your reading comprehension is horrible
2 Saying "I'm right" doesn't actually make you right. I still can't figure out why this is the standard tactic around here.Now, you can carry on being wrong and thinking you're right. Heck, there might even be a few misguided souls who agree with you. I think the actual rules are pretty clear to everyone else. I your need to have the last word, so go ahead. The case against you has been sufficiently proven by the RAW.
1 More insults eh? I find it helps to take a step back if you find yourself getting emotionally compromised to such a degree that you feel the need to fling insults. Also, pro tip: If you do want to get under someone's skin with an insult, try going for something they're not comfortable about. Don't attack the strongest points of their walls, go for the cracks. Read: You gotta do better than insulting my reading comprehension.
2 If you will note, I didn’t say I was right. I said “So, the cool thing about being right, is that any rules text you quote will support my argument.” Now, that certainly implies that I am right, but that isn’t the main message of the sentence. Here, let me rephrase it so it is easier to understand.
Any quote you provide from the rules of Pathfinder will only add support to the correct position. That is the benefit of holding the correct position, any evidence provided supports it.
Anyway, you haven’t built a case. RAW or otherwise. And it is pretty black and white that readied actions happen outside your turn.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
Call that cherry picking all you like. But it is literally the first line of the Ready section. And all the rest of the readied action text corroborates this very basic fact about readied actions.
Fun fact: “Readying is a standard action.”
So, say you take your move action, and then ready an action to attack if someone gets close. You have now used your standard, and your move action. Your turn is over. (Aside from any swift/free you wanna squeeze in)
You don’t get another turn until your initiative count comes back around.
Now, if you take your readied action, it happens at whatever point in time the trigger condition is met, typically on someone else’s turn. Then, after your readied action is completed, your initiative count moves to just before the count where your condition occurred. Now you have to wait all the way back through the whole initiative count until your new point is reached again before you get another turn.
Just the facts, jack. Just the facts.