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More like girls don't find it fun. Or don't like the combat and blow em up elements enough to make up for it.So then all those True Roleplayer threads that pop up every week complaining about people who focus on the math or the combat/blow-em-up instead of the shared storytelling experience are all just women complaining about men? Wow, news to me. The more you know, eh?
You realize you've lost any right to complain about anyone else's parsing now.
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My mental checklist for gaming:
Does the person look new? If so, ask if you can help. If not, game on.
Does the person look confused? If so, ask if you can help. If not, game on.
Do they seem intimidated by the table? If so, try to politely help them be able to stand up for themselves. If not, game on.
Basically...help other players if they want it. If someone seems uncomfortable, talk to them away from the gaming table, and see what you can do to help that. If its a woman (or more often teen girl) who feels shut down by the table, then stand up for her. The same way you would do for any other marginalized person.
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My mental checklist for gaming:
Does the person look new? If so, ask if you can help. If not, game on.
Does the person look confused? If so, ask if you can help. If not, game on.
Do they seem intimidated by the table? If so, try to politely help them be able to stand up for themselves. If not, game on.
Basically...help other players if they want it. If someone seems uncomfortable, talk to them away from the gaming table, and see what you can do to help that. If its a person (or more often young person) who feels shut down by the table, then stand up for them. The same way you would do for any other marginalized person.
there - fixed that for you.
;)
I'll accept the them, but it really has been in my experience that young women in PFS have more trouble asserting themselves. So, I'm extra watchful for moments where they might have an idea that gets pushed aside, so I can support the idea as well.
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Grooming affects how people see you, even if you don't think it should.
And how they smell you. If you don't want to bath or wear clean clothes ... well, there is on-line PFS. I *am* demanding that you shower and put on clean clothes before you come to game. Life is too short to put up with stank.
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I usually try not to get pulled into threads like this, but some of the items being posted make me want to chime in.
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I’m a married, white, middle-aged, male who fits very comfortably into the dork category. So yes, I know everything I say is automatically suspect. But I observe, ask questions, look, and listen.
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Some men and some women do not react the same to the same stimulus or environment. I will not get into the ‘nurture vs nature’ argument (my personal opinion that it is usually nurture), but there are tendencies that seem to be a bit different.
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Hygiene. This should be a given. It really bugs me that this issue still comes up in this day and age among educated and otherwise intelligent people. There shouldn’t be anyone that doesn’t realize he/she needs to wear clean clothes, shower, and brush his/her teeth.
If you’ve gotten sweaty at work, playing basket ball, or mowing the lawn – guess what? You need to take another shower!
If you had a jalapeño, onion, and anchovy pizza – guess what? You need to brush your teeth again!
Having said that. I usually observe a bit of a different response to lack of hygiene. If it is not too overpowering, guys will usually tend to just be mildly annoyed and ignore it. Women will probably tend to be more bothered and are more likely to react such as finding an excuse to move to the other side of the table or even another table. (I am an exception, it bothers me more than anyone else I have ever met. I will probably leave the event.) If it is overpowering, guys seem to be much more likely to say something to the offensive person.
I think (based on the little slice of people I have observed) that poor hygiene is more likely to chase away women than men from the gaming table.
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Treat everyone the same. Excellent advice and it should always be the goal. However, that is not always sufficient.
Real Life Situation: Several women in our local PFS community were almost always arriving late to games. Then I noticed they were sitting in their car and coming in late. I asked why. Turns out they were waiting until the games had started so JJB couldn’t corner them and flirt for 30 minutes until the game started. JJB would sit very close to them, talk kind loud and excitedly, with the big open puppy dog eyes expression on his face.
My response was: First, I’m about 90% sure JJB is closet gay and not interested in any of you in the slightest. Second, he does that to everyone. Try just moving around until he sits down and starts talking to someone else. Watch him.
I don’t know if it is cultural or personal, but JJB does have a smaller personal zone than most people in our area. So he will often sit or stand right next to a person. He has huge wide open eyes (almost surprised looking). And he talks just slightly too loud most of the time. When he sits next to me I’ll often just put my hand on his shoulder or arm with a slight push to remind him to give me a little space. If he’s talking to loud I’ll just say “inside voice.” It doesn’t bother him. He’ll laugh with an “oops” then he’ll sit back and talk quieter for awhile until he starts getting excited and forgets again.
Even though he’s gay and theoretically could be flirting with the guys in the store, I don’t think any of us (including the gay guys) took it that way. He’s mildly annoying when he gets excited (which is pretty often), but I would never have interpreted it as flirting. But 3 women did take it that way.
Note: Not all the women in our local thought he was flirting or had a problem with his behavior, but at least these 3 did.
Is that a problem with JJB. Well at least somewhat. He should probably make more of an effort to abide by the cultural norms of the community he is in unless there is some reason not to do so. But it is not just his problem. Those 3 women put an non-obvious interpretation on his behavior without any sort of checking on its validity.
I will also say all 3 of those women have stopped waiting in the car to be late after our conversation. They now realize he is just different not flirting. Communication is obviously a key to fixing any kind of issue. But if I had not noticed the anomaly the problem would still be there. As far as I could tell they never said anything to anyone.
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I believe the situation is vastly improved over 30 years ago in the gaming community. I think most of the people in our local treat people like people regardless how their pluming is arranged.
But don’t get me wrong. I am well aware it isn’t perfect. There are still some guys that don’t know how to act around women. (Although it is rarely mentioned, there are also a few women that don’t know how to act around men.) Some of them just don’t know how to act around other people. Whether it is condescending, domineering, impatient, flirting, or whatever – when I see unwelcome behavior, I will try to politely stop it. But I can’t be at every table and can’t always tell what is unwelcome behavior. If you don’t appreciate it, please say something to someone. Preferably to the person causing you the problem. But at least to someone. There are a lot of us that will be willing to help if we know there is a problem.
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Most of the other problems/issues I’ve read I think are more of a problem with how people are being treated instead of just a problem with how women are being treated.
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Hi, just wanted to chime in a girl's two cp.
I don't know what kind of groups that you play in, but really, I've had a pretty optimal experience in the three PFS meeting groups that I attend weekly.
What makes it that way is that they don't treat me differently for being female, but at the same time, they don't try to "empower" me by assuming that I never need help or advice.
Sorry, but I personally don't mind a hand with character creation or just plain combat strategy; I say this having only three months Pathfinder experience, but having played D&D 3.5 since age eleven.
Hygiene might be some issue for some groups, and I'll admit that we've had a few whiffy players, but to me it's not a be all and end all; suffering from a bit of anxiety myself, I understand that some people just don't know how to prepare for social situations when they usually aren't in them.
Anyway, I think that girls are more likely to be interested in playing if they have a gaming background or a love of fantasy in general; some girls just can't be recruited, because they don't have the set of interests to enjoy the game.
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PS on the flirting issue; I don't have any firsthand with it, and am not sure how prevalent it really is. After all, I'm a lot younger than the guys in my local groups, as well as being kinda hideous.
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Assistant Software Developer
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I don't talk about it a lot anymore, but one of the really eye opening experiences I had transitioning from perceived male to female was how much more people were willing to talk over me or discount my ideas if they conflicted. It was striking and disheartening and I've watched some of my gamer friends deal with it differently. Our friend Rose was great at not even pausing when others began to speak over and was happy raising her voice much higher than the others at the table if she needed to. Many others just lost heart.
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I don't talk about it a lot anymore, but one of the really eye opening experiences I had transitioning from perceived male to female was how much more people were willing to talk over me or discount my ideas if they conflicted. It was striking and disheartening and I've watched some of my gamer friends deal with it differently. Our friend Rose was great at not even pausing when others began to speak over and was happy raising her voice much higher than the others at the table if she needed to. Many others just lost heart.
Being a male, and soft spoken, I have this happen often. From both males and females. More often other males due to having more males in various groups Ive played with in general, but it is what it is. Its more of a conflict in personality types, rather than people being wrong or jerks for being more excited, louder, or needing more attention.
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Assistant Software Developer
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Being a male, and soft spoken, I have this happen often. From both males and females. More often other males due to having more males in various groups Ive played with in general, but it is what it is. Its more of a conflict in personality types, rather than people being wrong or jerks for being more excited, louder, or needing more attention.
=/ I made that statement as someone who was a soft spoken and unsure dude and became a much more assertive and sure of herself woman, which is why it was so surprising to me.
You're absolutely right, Lissa.
Loud, argumentative types are usually much more willing to talk over a woman than a man.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Being a male, and soft spoken, I have this happen often. From both males and females. More often other males due to having more males in various groups Ive played with in general, but it is what it is. Its more of a conflict in personality types, rather than people being wrong or jerks for being more excited, louder, or needing more attention.=/ I made that statement as someone who was a soft spoken and unsure dude and became a much more assertive and sure of herself woman, which is why it was so surprising to me.
Or even if you hadn't increased your assertiveness, it'd still be a case of the same person being treated two different ways based on whether they're perceived as male or female.
Seems that lots of folks seem to respond to assertions of how women are treated with "But I saw it happen to a dude once, so it must not be gender-related". Nevermind all the other variables that can come into play when you're comparing the stories of two completely separate individuals.
But one person being treated one way as a male and another as a female? That really says something.
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You're absolutely right, Lissa.
Loud, argumentative types are usually much more willing to talk over a woman than a man.
???
"Loud, argumentative types are usually much more willing to talk over ..." ...everyone.
No, women over men. Everyone, yes. But I've watched them continue talking over a woman no matter how vehemently she asserts herself, while pausing enough to let a man get a word in edgewise.
That's the trend. It's real. Lissa is living proof. I've seen it at the game table, in the workplace, on the street, everywhere.
It's real, and evidence that men are also talked over is not sufficient. You need proof that they're treated the same no matter what, and that runs counter to my experience.
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Bruno be the change that Bruno want to see in the world.
Last Monday night, stupid devil monster have unconscious dying lady next to it.
Bruno run past dumb dumb devil to rescue lady!
HA HA MONSTER! YOU TOO SLOW FOR BEAUTIFUL AND HANDSOME TETORI!
Bruno then tell GM and rest of table:
"To be very clear so there are no misunderstandings--in a very respectful manner, making sure to touch her appropriately, Bruno grapple unconscious lady."
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Assistant Software Developer
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We should keep this on topic, honestly. Women in PFS. I speak mostly about my experiences gaming and one of the big reasons I don't often do PFS any more. If you want to speak to how men are affected by sexism(because proscribed roles affect everyone) outside of the table, that's fine but I think it's best that another thread be started in that case.
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Being a male, and soft spoken, I have this happen often. From both males and females. More often other males due to having more males in various groups Ive played with in general, but it is what it is. Its more of a conflict in personality types, rather than people being wrong or jerks for being more excited, louder, or needing more attention.=/ I made that statement as someone who was a soft spoken and unsure dude and became a much more assertive and sure of herself woman, which is why it was so surprising to me.Or even if you hadn't increased your assertiveness, it'd still be a case of the same person being treated two different ways based on whether they're perceived as male or female.
Seems that lots of folks seem to respond to assertions of how women are treated with "But I saw it happen to a dude once, so it must not be gender-related". Nevermind all the other variables that can come into play when you're comparing the stories of two completely separate individuals.
But one person being treated one way as a male and another as a female? That really says something.
It could say a lot of things, but not automarically the one you assume. Maybe they had more self confidence afterwards, or had a different group of players.
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Assistant Software Developer
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It could say a lot of things, but not automarically the one you assume. Maybe they had more self confidence afterwards, or had a different group of players.
Or you could take me at my word that it was over a length of different experiences where I came to this conclusion and not based on a few one offs? You know, I had gamed 10 years before my transition and easily 13 years post transition so this is not a small set of experience that I'm working with here.
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I don't talk about it a lot anymore, but one of the really eye opening experiences I had transitioning from perceived male to female was how much more people were willing to talk over me or discount my ideas if they conflicted. It was striking and disheartening and I've watched some of my gamer friends deal with it differently. Our friend Rose was great at not even pausing when others began to speak over and was happy raising her voice much higher than the others at the table if she needed to. Many others just lost heart.
This matches my experience 100%.
I noticed this much more at work than while gaming, and I won't derail this thread with details of those observations. But this is absolutely a thing. What's more, like every transwoman I know, I was told many times before transition that this would happen, and I believed that it would happen, you know, somewhat, but I was still unprepared for how extensive it was. I mean utterly unprepared.
So guys, don't get defensive about it. No one expects you to grok this dynamic to its fullest extent, because you can't. The only thing you're expected to do is believe the experiences reported, add them to your data set, and try hard to watch your own behaviour. If you do that, you'll be one of the good guys, I promise.
As for gaming...
I find I have little problem while GMing. Even though I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, I have decades of GM experience and I know how to run a table. I'm also old enough that I can turn on the 'Mom' voice and get people to focus when need be.
However, it can be very different when I'm playing. At some tables, I get cut out of the diplomatic interactions and tactical planning. Is that all gender-based? No...but some of it is. By now I know which players at our game days talk over everyone, which ones talk over everyone new, and which ones talk over everyone female. As a regular, it doesn't effect me much, and I'm able to help shepherd the newbies through the dynamics.
But those kind of dynamics do mean that I am unlikely to play much at unfamiliar locations, or at Cons, unless I already know someone who will be there. So there's a little more of an initial hurdle to get over there -- I need to have the energy to really be up to dealing with the potential dynamics.
Not sure how generalizable any of this is...but perhaps it is helpful.
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I’m a married, white, middle-aged, male who fits very comfortably into the dork category. So yes, I know everything I say is automatically suspect. But I observe, ask questions, look, and listen.
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Still from the mwmam point of view..
I do watch for people being talked over whether player or GM at any table. I don't watch specifically for only talking over the women. I watch for talking over anyone. Shy people, younger people, women, older people, even one guy with a speech impediment get talked over fairly often. I don't like that and try to shut it down when ever I can.
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Out of the probably 50 regulars at our local, I only know of 2 guys that I have noticed talking over women more than anyone else. There could be more, but there are only those 2 that I have noticed doing that. (However, there are several that talk over anyone who doesn't tell them to back off.)
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Communication! Say something to someone. I will stop it if I notice. If I haven't stopped it, it isn't because I'm not willing. It is because I didn't notice.
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Again, I can say that from what I have observed, it is not nearly as bad as it was 30 years ago. Back then, I think most any table would have been likely to have at least 1 guy that would talk over or ignore any woman at the table. There were even a couple guys that refused to play at a table with women because it would just ruin the game since they didn't know what they were doing.
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But there is still definitely a world of room for improvement.
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I don't talk about it a lot anymore, but one of the really eye opening experiences I had transitioning from perceived male to female was how much more people were willing to talk over me or discount my ideas if they conflicted.
Or even more annoying; ignore your input, then a male repeats your exact words, and gets a round of approval...
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It's definitely getting better. That's for sure. =)
Edit: I'm going to say a little more than that just because I think it's the crux of the point I want to make. If this happens to someone and it is their first or second time gaming and they already feel a little uncomfortable and you don't catch it when it happens, chances are that you've lost that person forever. Basically, not being listened to = not being able to play.
Let me start out saying I play with a great bunch of guys at PFS. however when my wife started to play with me there,she experienced the same problems. And the reason she quit was because everyone but maybe two players(DM's) would never pay attention to her. She has completely lost interest in PFS. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that:
1. Men/boys don't know how or are uncomfortable talking to women.
2. Believe that females are the weaker role player and need help. And they help by trying to play the females character for her.
3. This is the only setting where this normally unconfident person can feel superior and must demonstrate that superiority.
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Assistant Software Developer
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2. Believe that females are the weaker role player and need help. And they help by trying to play the females character for her.
Oh! That reminds me of something else that changed. Suddenly, everyone felt that I didn't know the rules very well and that I needed help before I could ask for it or if I did something inefficiently for roleplay reasons. It was really well meaning, by and large, but it also felt a bit demoralizing because I knew the rules better than some of those guys and they kept trying to help when I really just wanted to do what I wanted to do. With new gamers, especially, it's easy to help them do the math to get on with it(*I* still rarely trip up on this myself), but it's not helpful for them if they want to learn this system better.
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Assistant Software Developer
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is this about players who are new to pathfinder, women, women who are new to pathfinder, players who are new to women, or all of the above
You see with new players occasionally, but I see it happen to new as well as seasoned women gamers more frequently. It is especially frustrating when you are seasoned gamer.
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It could say a lot of things, but not automarically the one you assume. Maybe they had more self confidence afterwards, or had a different group of players.Or you could take me at my word that it was over a length of different experiences where I came to this conclusion and not based on a few one offs? You know, I had gamed 10 years before my transition and easily 13 years post transition so this is not a small set of experience that I'm working with here.
How am I not taking you at your word? Also, your past history was not included in the original or follow up, only that you noticed a difference, which I was only suggesting might be more about how you saw yourself than how others saw you. Or for example perhaps you joined a different group afterwards.
Im choosing not to be offended, :), but are you not doing exactly what you are implyingof me (not taking me at my word)? Or somehow assuming your word has greater value than others?
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I don't talk about it a lot anymore, but one of the really eye opening experiences I had transitioning from perceived male to female was how much more people were willing to talk over me or discount my ideas if they conflicted. It was striking and disheartening and I've watched some of my gamer friends deal with it differently. Our friend Rose was great at not even pausing when others began to speak over and was happy raising her voice much higher than the others at the table if she needed to. Many others just lost heart.Being a male, and soft spoken, I have this happen often. From both males and females. More often other males due to having more males in various groups Ive played with in general, but it is what it is. Its more of a conflict in personality types, rather than people being wrong or jerks for being more excited, louder, or needing more attention.
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It could say a lot of things, but not automarically the one you assume. Maybe they had more self confidence afterwards, or had a different group of players.
Woman: I noticed that since I transitioned from perceived male to perceived female, people have become a lot more willing to talk over me or dismiss my opinions--
Man: Whatever. It happens to men too. If you think it's sexism it's more likely you're just wrong about your experiences.
It's like a perfect little one-act morality play.
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I avoid most organized play for many of the reasons listed above. Too many guys get awkward, creepy, or both; the condescension in assuming I don't know the rules or need them explained to me differently; etc.
I also tend to avoid it for reasons that aren't gender-related. For longer games, I'd rather play with my friends than with strangers, I'd rather play from the comfort of one of our homes, etc.