Women in PFS


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Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

*attempts to counterspell the Wall of Irony*

*snaps fingers*

Jessica beat me to it.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Im choosing not to be offended, :), but are you not doing exactly what you are implyingof me (not taking me at my word)? Or somehow assuming your word has greater value than others?

I... actually think I'm a better authority on my own experiences. So yes, I believe, in that regard, my word has a greater value than yours. =)

Dark Archive

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... well, reading through these last few posts, I think I know why I'm so comfortable being a girl in PFS.

I'm comfortable because I neither expect nor want equal treatment, not just regarding gender, but also regarding age. I'm younger, I'm female, and so long as no-one actually spits in my face, I'm staying no matter how many people talk over me.

NB that a good solution when people talk over you is to just to raise your voice and repeat yourself. (Though other times, being a doormat can be advantageous.)

This is quickly turning into a feminism thing, and I'm essentially opposed to feminism, so I'm just going to sit the rest of this out.


this thread is making my stomach hurt and making me pretty proud of the socal pfs community at the same time

3/5

Artemis: You *want* people to value your abilities and contributions less because of your gender?

The Exchange 5/5

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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Artemis: You *want* people to value your abilities and contributions less because of your gender?

ah - quit bashing the little girl!

did you catch what i did there? the "rush to the defenseless girl" thing?

Dark Archive

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I "want" to be treated as a woman, a gender that is fundamentally different from a man, and if that means that I'm seen as inferior, than that's a side-effect I'm willing to risk.

Too often on the internet, and even IRL, gender equality becomes a bland desire for uniformity.

---

And @nosig, thank you. Sarcastic or not, your comment makes me happy.

Silver Crusade Assistant Software Developer

We should help everyone that asks for it. These rules are super complicated but that's not really my concern. My concern is when people assume I don't know the rules because of my gender which is a thing that has occurred despite my 20 years of gaming. I almost left a friend's group over it. And another woman gamer, a good friend of my wife and I and owner of a game store, actually walked out of a pathfinder game(not PFS) over it. She was actually one of the best GM's I've ever had. And I've seen it happen on occasion to others and they silently suffer and then never come back and it's a shame.

The Exchange 5/5

I've been thinking of the phrase "Women in PFS" and thinking of things other than "jerk" reactions and sexism.

I can only think of one judge I would really like to play for that I missed a chance to play with. And she's a woman... and when I was at a CON where she was judging I missed her table as she was running things I had already played, and this was before judge re-plays. I'm sort of saving my last replay partly on the off chance that I get another chance... if she get's back to my neck of the woods again.

Anyone else have a point about "Women in PFS" that isn't a sexism issue (which I think we all know about and understand at this point) - sprinkle it on in here and we'll enjoy it (at least I will).

3/5

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Well. It's not my place to pass judgement on your point of view, or to say that you're wrong to say that. I cannot understand it, however. It seems incomprehensible.


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nosig wrote:

I've been thinking of the phrase "Women in PFS" and thinking of things other than "jerk" reactions and sexism.

I can only think of one judge I would really like to play for that I missed a chance to play with. And she's a woman... and when I was at a CON where she was judging I missed her table as she was running things I had already played, and this was before judge re-plays. I'm sort of saving my last replay partly on the off chance that I get another chance... if she get's back to my neck of the woods again.

Anyone else have a point about "Women in PFS" that isn't a sexism issue (which I think we all know about and understand at this point) - sprinkle it on in here and we'll enjoy it (at least I will).

whomever would that be? lol

I had my say on this topic already when there was a huge huge huge thread ..

so I'll just say this .. if we all treated each other with common decency and didn't assume anything about some of the opposite gender I think that there would be more equality among the genders and we wouldn't have the disparity we do now (even thought it's gotten better)

I don't go into a gaming arena with the thought that I'm going to be treated differently because I have girly bits .. I expect to be respected because I'm the GM and I'm going to try kill your character.

:)

*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

Dark Archive 4/5

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Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:


*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

I died laughing. This is best thing.

*sprinkles more glitter*

Uh oh... we're going to have to fight a glitter swarm, aren't we?


We're going to have to clean up the glitter, aren't we?

Sigh. That stuff gets everywhere.

*fetches vacuum*

Silver Crusade

Dresden10589 wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:


*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

I died laughing. This is best thing.

*sprinkles more glitter*

Uh oh... we're going to have to fight a glitter swarm, aren't we?

She does that a lot. Especially around Kyle Baird. Best way to spot him approaching is the warning puffs of flying glitter.

Dark Archive 4/5

Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Dresden10589 wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:


*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

I died laughing. This is best thing.

*sprinkles more glitter*

Uh oh... we're going to have to fight a glitter swarm, aren't we?

She does that a lot. Especially around Kyle Baird. Best way to spot him approaching is the warning puffs of flying glitter.

See glitter puffs, hide character. Got it.


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Would it be sexist to make her vacuum it up?

It is her glitter.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

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nosig wrote:
I've been thinking of the phrase "Women in PFS" and thinking of things other than "jerk" reactions and sexism.

When my oldest daughter was still a child she asked if she could play D&D with us instead of just watch. I told her she could play with us when she could read and understand the entire 3rd edition Player's Handbook. She was playing with us by the time she was 9 years old and by the time she was 14 she was DMing at local Living Greyhawk conventions.

We were attending a LG Con in Orlando, Florida. Another group of players from Chicago had come down to attend as this was one of the few ways you could play adventures from other regions in those days. Now my oldest is very petite, so when she sat down at the table with them, their first thought was, "Oh, God. We came all the way down from Chicago to play with a little girl?" She then introduced herself as the DM and the thoughts changed to, "Oh, Dear God! We came all the way down from Chicago to be DMed by a little girl?"

When the table was done they all actively sought me out having been told I was her father. They then began lavishing praise upon me for having raised such a mature, fun, rules knowledgeable DM, telling me how much dread they had felt when they found out she was going to be their DM and how much joy they felt at having their assumptions proved wrong, and praising her as one of the best DMs they ever had. They were so impressed that when they found out she was attending GenCon with us as her birthday present they sought her out there and gave her a birthday present. They still wave us down at Cons whenever they see us.

Interestingly enough, I think my daughter has run into more Ageist issues in OP (people not showing her respect because they thought of her as a kid) than she has sexist issues. Though I am sure she has had her share of those, as well.


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When I read people "ists" stories it saddens me.

Honestly one of my greatest fears in playing is having someone feel I did something like that to them.


trollbill wrote:

... Now my oldest is very petite, so when she sat down at the table with them, their first thought was, "Oh, God. We came all the way down from Chicago to play with a little girl?" She then introduced herself as the DM and the thoughts changed to, "Oh, Dear God! We came all the way down from Chicago to be DMed by a little girl?"

...
Interestingly enough, I think my daughter has run into more Ageist issues in OP (people not showing her respect because they thought of her as a kid) than she has sexist issues. Though I am sure she has had her share of those, as well.

I have to admit I am a bit guilty of that myself. Several times I've cringed and thought, Oh carp! Not another kid GM that doesn't even know the rules! I know I've never said anything and I've tried to not show anything in my actions or attitude. I've always 'played through' to see what happens. Sometimes it has been a pleasant surprise and sometimes it has met my low expectations.

I know it is the old curmudgeon in me along with my tendency to remember the bad rather than the good experiences. This one, I'm still working on fixing in my own head.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Why does it seem like everyone's favorite place to discuss things like handling newbies, how age impacts gaming, and how much of an equal-opportunity-employer everyone's social shortcomings totally are, is in threads that were supposed to be about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Jiggy wrote:
Why does it seem like everyone's favorite place to discuss things like handling newbies, how age impacts gaming, and how much of an equal-opportunity-employer everyone's social shortcomings totally are, is in threads that were supposed to be about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming?

Because in the end, it's all about respect.

The Exchange 5/5

Why is a tread titled "Women in PFS" assumed to be "about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming"...?

rather than about cool Women gamers? or how they give an unique outlook to our part of what has been (as still is in many parts of the hobby) a mostly male hobby?

The Exchange 5/5

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
nosig wrote:

I've been thinking of the phrase "Women in PFS" and thinking of things other than "jerk" reactions and sexism.

I can only think of one judge I would really like to play for that I missed a chance to play with. And she's a woman... and when I was at a CON where she was judging I missed her table as she was running things I had already played, and this was before judge re-plays. I'm sort of saving my last replay partly on the off chance that I get another chance... if she get's back to my neck of the woods again.

Anyone else have a point about "Women in PFS" that isn't a sexism issue (which I think we all know about and understand at this point) - sprinkle it on in here and we'll enjoy it (at least I will).

whomever would that be? lol

I had my say on this topic already when there was a huge huge huge thread ..

so I'll just say this .. if we all treated each other with common decency and didn't assume anything about some of the opposite gender I think that there would be more equality among the genders and we wouldn't have the disparity we do now (even thought it's gotten better)

I don't go into a gaming arena with the thought that I'm going to be treated differently because I have girly bits .. I expect to be respected because I'm the GM and I'm going to try kill your character.

:)

*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

eeek! she caught me!

she wasn't going to peek back in here... I thought she said she wasn't comeing back in here... Now my secret is out...

I know, when I sit at her table I'll change to a different T-Shirt, so she wont recognize me... Maybe a Taldon faction shirt...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
trollbill wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Why does it seem like everyone's favorite place to discuss things like handling newbies, how age impacts gaming, and how much of an equal-opportunity-employer everyone's social shortcomings totally are, is in threads that were supposed to be about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming?
Because in the end, it's all about respect.

Then can we stop pretending that respect is evenly distributed, and allow a given group of under-respected individuals to have their own thread about that respect without trying to steer it elsewhere?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nosig wrote:
Why is a tread titled "Women in PFS" assumed to be "about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming"...?

Because the OP specifically made this thread about the latter of those two things. Also because my statement was more general than just this thread.

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
nosig wrote:
Why is a tread titled "Women in PFS" assumed to be "about the challenges women gamers face or how to get more women gaming"...?
Because the OP specifically made this thread about the latter of those two things. Also because my statement was more general than just this thread.

lol! and after 100 posts any thread is going to have drifted right?

Is no problem - I was just poking fun anyway - really. At least a little bit. And hoping to hear some "nice" stories too...like trollbills...

Liberty's Edge

Wrong John Silver wrote:

You're absolutely right, Lissa.

Loud, argumentative types are usually much more willing to talk over a woman than a man.

Sadly, this matches my data. In my opinion, it's a cultural thing.


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nosig wrote:
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:
nosig wrote:

I've been thinking of the phrase "Women in PFS" and thinking of things other than "jerk" reactions and sexism.

I can only think of one judge I would really like to play for that I missed a chance to play with. And she's a woman... and when I was at a CON where she was judging I missed her table as she was running things I had already played, and this was before judge re-plays. I'm sort of saving my last replay partly on the off chance that I get another chance... if she get's back to my neck of the woods again.

Anyone else have a point about "Women in PFS" that isn't a sexism issue (which I think we all know about and understand at this point) - sprinkle it on in here and we'll enjoy it (at least I will).

whomever would that be? lol

I had my say on this topic already when there was a huge huge huge thread ..

so I'll just say this .. if we all treated each other with common decency and didn't assume anything about some of the opposite gender I think that there would be more equality among the genders and we wouldn't have the disparity we do now (even thought it's gotten better)

I don't go into a gaming arena with the thought that I'm going to be treated differently because I have girly bits .. I expect to be respected because I'm the GM and I'm going to try kill your character.

:)

*giggles and does a little cheerleading sidekick on her way out the door*

*sprinkles glitter*

eeek! she caught me!

she wasn't going to peek back in here... I thought she said she wasn't comeing back in here... Now my secret is out...

I know, when I sit at her table I'll change to a different T-Shirt, so she wont recognize me... Maybe a Taldon faction shirt...

Lol

Two stipulations ...

You come to Nashville .. and you don't change shirts at the table.


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having never played RPG's in an "Official" setting but looking into it, I can say from my own experiences there really is no easy answer to questions like these, but how wide spread are the complaints? someone somewhere will always get offended somehow. Personally i treat everyone as an equal and i treat everyone with the same respect given to me regardless of gender, race, orientation whatever, but even that can land you in hot water in this day and age. It all depends on who you are dealing with.

Some EXPECT special treatment, and that is simply something i am not willing to do.

EDIT: what i am trying to say is, if men are chasing off women due to being rude, or intimidating them, or just plain being creepy that is a problem, and needs to be dealt with those specific cases, and i view it no different if a woman is being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player.

I just view it as there should not be any special rules going on to make women more comfortable at the tables, I view it as how we make EVERYONE more comfortable at the tables.


Vinja89 wrote:

EDIT: what i am trying to say is, if men are chasing off women due to being rude, or intimidating them, or just plain being creepy that is a problem, and needs to be dealt with those specific cases, and i view it no different if a woman is being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player.

See, that's the thing, though. I've seen plenty of circumstances where a male player was rude or creepy to a female player. I haven't had to deal with a woman at the table being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player, ever.

And that includes the time this one girl sitting next to me at the game placed her hand on my leg. I... didn't mind.

Actually, no, I take that back, I remember one con game where we adjourned to a hotel room for the game. These two women came into the room (it wasn't their room) and proceeded to change into bathing suits and use the hot tub. They were constantly bothering play, making a lot of noise, and trying to get our attention, even though they weren't playing. That was annoying. But that's it. Ever. Over tons of con games.


I do not think a double standard is ok, no. If something like that is somehow ok for a woman to do but not a man then i view that as a problem, which i view it inappropriate for either gender to do without consent regardless of your feelings about it, Just if a man did it to a woman a mob would be calling for his head im sure.

I have dealt with plenty of women who can browbeat and talk over someone just as well as any man can, its a personality flaw not tied to gender in my experience.

The Exchange

Wrong John Silver wrote:
Vinja89 wrote:

EDIT: what i am trying to say is, if men are chasing off women due to being rude, or intimidating them, or just plain being creepy that is a problem, and needs to be dealt with those specific cases, and i view it no different if a woman is being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player.

See, that's the thing, though. I've seen plenty of circumstances where a male player was rude or creepy to a female player. I haven't had to deal with a woman at the table being rude, intimidating, or creepy to a male player, ever.

And that includes the time this one girl sitting next to me at the game placed her hand on my leg. I... didn't mind.

Actually, no, I take that back, I remember one con game where we adjourned to a hotel room for the game. These two women came into the room (it wasn't their room) and proceeded to change into bathing suits and use the hot tub. They were constantly bothering play, making a lot of noise, and trying to get our attention, even though they weren't playing. That was annoying. But that's it. Ever. Over tons of con games.

I have. We had a girl that always seemed to play way over sexed characters and loved the attention of being the "cute gamer girl" to a point that it made some uncomfortable

Liberty's Edge

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Hmm....Women in PFS. It's actually something I've been a bit passionate about advocating since I joined Society a year ago. I joined PFS with my husband, with maybe 10 RPG sessions ever in my life (never did D&D or MMOs, nothing), so I had a LOT to catch up on for rules and understanding stuff and things like that. I started to run a Women's Only Pathfinder home group, and I worked hard to try to teach them how to play, which in turn made me learn the rules a lot better.

I ended up becoming much much more involved in PFS and that home group fell by the wayside. My husband stopped playing in PFS within a few months, but I continued on my own, showing up to game days a few times a week. Honestly, I was overwhelmed and often felt out-of-place at the table, and felt like I could never hold my own in combat or even out of combat. There were a number of times I went home in tears after games, because there was someone treating me like a real jerk or feeling like I would never be good enough to be treated as a equal with all the other super experienced [male] players.

I kept telling my husband I was going to quit and never go back, but I'm super persistent and stubborn, and I did keep going back. And I'm glad I did. I finally feel like I'm treated as an equal at the table, and newer [male and female] players will even ask ME for advice or rules questions. But it was a long and, frankly, emotional journey to get there.

When I took over organizing one of game days, I made it my goal to work on involving more women in PFS and helping them to feel more welcomed and comfortable at the table. I had planned on working on planning a few gaming seminars for women players, to help them build characters and confidence at the table and hearing and addressing concerns they have had while gaming. I would also like to try to start hosting one table for women players only, maybe once a week or once every couple of weeks at one of our game days. I'm hoping to work on actually trying this stuff out when I've got a little time to plan (there's been a lot going on personally for me lately).

What advice can I give the male players of the gaming world? Treat the lady players as you would that little sister (or even your mother) you respect and admire. Be protective, without being degrading. Let them shine once in a while, they will surprise you. Even if it's just one awesome D20 roll or ending combat with the last blow. Cheer them on, just like you would anyone else. High fives all around after combat is cool with everyone. Have fun and don't be afraid of a little light-hearted humor. Everyone likes a good laugh, but don't do at someone else's expense. Just remember - would you look at your sister like that? And would you let someone else talk to your sister that way? And is that joke one you'd tell in front of your mother?

I enjoy playing with most people in our local PFS group and I like to think of some of guys I game with regularly as like an older protective brother (even if they're younger). I think they'd have my back if someone starts to act like a jerk, which makes more comfortable at the table. I'm often times the only woman player at the table, so I've had to learn to hold my own ground and try a little harder to earn the respect of newer [male] players at the table, especially GMing. But like I say, it's still something I'm working on and I am still trying to be an advocate of increasing women players in PFS. Ladies - we've got this! :-)


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Ok, so I figured I would chime in with my thoughts, opinions and experience, everything below is just that, they aren't facts or assertions, just opinions and my own experience.

Disclaimer I am also a MMAM (Married, Middle aged Man)

So I guess firstly regarding the "Talking over people issue", I have seen this done to both males and females, it happens a lot to me actually because I tend to be pretty quiet in groups. It could just be the PFS in this country, but I really havent noticed people talking over any sex more than any other, its more often they will talk over people who dont stop them.

Second, I have seen on this thread a couple of examples of "Well just because you're a guy and you have had a few bad experiences, it doesn't mean that guys have it as bad as girls". This just annoys me, I don't pretend to know who (if anyone) has it better, and everyones situation will be different. But what these statements seem to boil down to is "Hey your experiences are just anecdotal we can't accept them as fact the way we will if a woman says she had bad experiences". That just seems odd to me. Unless anyone here has conducted a study on this (and I'm not ruling that out!) then EVERYONES experiences are anecdotal. (By the way I in NO way mean to say everyone is saying that or even the majority, just a few people and it annoyed me).

Third, and I dont mean this to sound in any way inflammatory, its really just a random thought, but PFS is a social game. I agree that straight up flirting and making people uncomfortable is not part of PFS, (I have seen it done -thankfully outside PFS, and dear god it made ME uncomfortable and I wasn't the target!).
But heres the thing, it is still social, so maybe some of those guys who seem to be more willing to go over the character sheet or "help" a girl aren't doing it because they think they need it, maybe they just want something to talk about. I know I used to suffer from crippling shyness, and was genuinely scared of talking to girls. For me having something in front of you that you both have in common, that you know its "safe" to talk about (ie your not flirting or trying to pry) its a great way to try and talk to people you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

I don't mean that to sound like its for "picking people up", but lets be honest here, IF someone had an attraction to someone then, If the first step is trying to talk to them about a mutual interest, is that really that much of a crime? Surely that's how most relationships (of all kind, platonic, romantic, etc) start? (Again I dont mean to suggest that this is the reason for all people to "offer help" Im sure a lot of people do underestimate others, but maybe its just worth thinking, does this person think im incapable, or are they just trying to strike up a conversation).

Again the above is all just one guys opinion, so take it as you will.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Catling wrote:
There were a number of times I went home in tears after games, because there was someone treating me like a real jerk or feeling like I would never be good enough to be treated as a equal with all the other super experienced [male] players.

What?! But you're super fun! :(

I hope none of that was me.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

Regarding flirting, I think the same rules that apply to flirting in social situations in general should apply at the game table. The big problem isn't flirting, it's unwanted flirting. Of course, that's sort of a loaded gun also since you can't tell the flirting is unwanted until you try. I suppose that may be why some people would prefer no flirting at the table because it risks the possibility of social awkwardness. On the other hand, if I had never flirted at the gaming table I would have never had my first serious girlfriend, I would have never dated several other women and I would not be married to my wife.


trollbill wrote:
Regarding flirting, I think the same rules that apply to flirting in social situations in general should apply at the game table. The big problem isn't flirting, it's unwanted flirting. Of course, that's sort of a loaded gun also since you can't tell the flirting is unwanted until you try. I suppose that may be why some people would prefer no flirting at the table because it risks the possibility of social awkwardness. On the other hand, if I had never flirted at the gaming table I would have never had my first serious girlfriend, I would have never dated several other women and I would not be married to my wife.

I suppose this is similar to the point I was trying to make, its knowing what constitutes "harmless" levels of flirting to different people, even though at the end of the day everyone will be different there is also a degree of common sense.

I mean its kinda funny (to me) in the same way there are people who thought they were being flirted with when they werent, there are also probably people who have never realised they were being flirted with at all! (Some of us suck at it!)

Anyway I guess just remember that speaking to other people is, and should be ok. If you feel like flirting then just roll high on perception and look out for signs its unwanted or making them (or anyone at the table) uncomfortable.

I mean i met my wife from trying to embarrassingly talk about Chemistry because we were both studying it and its the only thing I knew we had in common. I see PFS as similar, its something people know they have in common, and therefore is a nice point to start talking about (no matter what your aim).
I mean im actually pretty (relatively) new to gaming, and the few friends I do have from gaming circles all started out due to conversations about the game.

Reading back that post seems to meander a lot, but the main point is, its good to talk (RIP Bob Hoskins) I should probably go back to work!


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Flirting is one thing. Blatantly hitting on someone is something else. Flirting is generally a first attempt to see if there might be interest from the other person. If you have any class, you back off if the other person doesn't respond. If you're not socially aware enough to know whether the other person is receptive or not, don't try it, at least in settings where risks disrupting the main activity - like a game.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:

You come to Nashville .. and you don't change shirts at the table.

(Totally off topic.) You're in Nashville? I used to live there. Used to go to Hypericon, used to give talks there, used to bemoan that there weren't more RPGs at Hypericon.

The Exchange 5/5

LOL! I remember my sister being totally oblivious when, during a brake between slots, a guy asked her if she wanted to eat at the restarunt across the street from the game shop. "Nah, I brought my lunch...". This after mentioning that morning that she needed to get a guy in her life (and jokingly saying she started gaming to meet guys - AND mentioning that she thought the guy who asked her was "kind of cute"...[eye-roll]). We still kid her about it years later... "Missed your Perception check there... or was it Sense Motive?"


nosig wrote:
LOL! I remember my sister being totally oblivious when, during a brake between slots, a guy asked her if she wanted to eat at the restarunt across the street from the game shop. "Nah, I brought my lunch...". This after mentioning that morning that she needed to get a guy in her life (and jokingly saying she started gaming to meet guys - AND mentioning that she thought the guy who asked her was "kind of cute"...[eye-roll]). We still kid her about it years later... "Missed your Perception check there... or was it Sense Motive?"

Lol, brilliant

Project Manager

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thejeff wrote:
Flirting is one thing. Blatantly hitting on someone is something else. Flirting is generally a first attempt to see if there might be interest from the other person. If you have any class, you back off if the other person doesn't respond. If you're not socially aware enough to know whether the other person is receptive or not, don't try it, at least in settings where risks disrupting the main activity - like a game.

This +1000.

If you flirt and the other person doesn't respond, stop it. People are there to play a game. Some of them may also be interested in making friends, finding dates, etc. but you don't necessarily know who that's true for. The only thing you do know is that they're there for the game. A mild flirty comment or two, to try to gauge interest, is fine, IMO, but if they don't respond to your flirting (or, for that matter, any social overtures) with interest, let them play their game in peace.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

One unique issue with RPGs and flirting is that there is a difference between the character flirting and the player flirting. Usually I limit my in character flirting to NPCs unless I feel the player understands I am just role-playing.

When I played LFR I had a female dragonborn paladin of Sune (LFR's equivalent to Calistra) named Sora Loveguard. She was always hitting on male party members, offering to be their "personal" body guard, to join them is 'private" prayer sessions to Sune, etc. Her personal catchphrase was, "Once you go Dragon, you'll always be braggin'." The character was so over-the-top I figured no one would mistake this for actual flirting, but there were a few guys that I played with at Cons who had never met me before that were never quite sure.


Jessica Price wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Flirting is one thing. Blatantly hitting on someone is something else. Flirting is generally a first attempt to see if there might be interest from the other person. If you have any class, you back off if the other person doesn't respond. If you're not socially aware enough to know whether the other person is receptive or not, don't try it, at least in settings where risks disrupting the main activity - like a game.

This +1000.

If you flirt and the other person doesn't respond, stop it. People are there to play a game. Some of them may also be interested in making friends, finding dates, etc. but you don't necessarily know who that's true for. The only thing you do know is that they're there for the game. A mild flirty comment or two, to try to gauge interest, is fine, IMO, but if they don't respond to your flirting (or, for that matter, any social overtures) with interest, let them play their game in peace.

Completely agree with both of you, think you both have really hit the nail on the head in terms of not having an overreactive attitude and yet being respectful too.

trollbill wrote:

One unique issue with RPGs and flirting is that there is a difference between the character flirting and the player flirting. Usually I limit my in character flirting to NPCs unless I feel the player understands I am just role-playing.

Yeah I always limit my flirting to NPCs and even at that it tends to be the blatant but funny kind as opposed to anything "weird".

As I said in one of my earlier posts I once saw someone get talked to (in character) in a really sleazy way, but the sleaze was very obviously not just the character (at least in my opinion). It was really uncomfortable for everyone else at the table.


As a hint, it's usually pretty obvious to everyone when an in character sleazy comment is actually an out-of-character sleazy comment. Even if it's not obvious to the person making the comment.

3/5

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I have played Pathfinder for about five to six years now. I have been playing in Pathfinder Society a little less than a year. (It will be a full year at the end of May). I am a female gamer, one of three, which attend my local friendly game shop. In my experience, I have yet to see a female gamer play an overtly sexualized character. (My gaming group in college was about 50/50 made up of approximately 35 individuals).

I have, however, encountered four men, roleplaying female worshippers of Calistria, both in Pathfinder Society and in home games, focusing solely on Lust aspect. To this day, whenever I wind up being seated at a table with one of the worshippers, I am extremely uncomfortable. All of them tend to push things too far and when I finally speak up, I get looks of “wth is her problem?” and grumbles of how they are “just role playing their character”. I do not have an issue with Calistria herself as a deity, but it would be nice if everyone in my community were to recognize that she is also the goddess of Trickery and Secrets. I do not have a problem with people playing a different gender, but I have noticed that when men play female characters they tend to be more sexually active than women playing male characters.

I have been hit on at conventions when I was waiting to gm for Pathfinder Society, even when I was wearing an engagement ring, to the point that I had to excuse myself to find my fiancé to get a guy to back off. I do not feel that my local lodge is welcoming to females and part of the reason why I have stuck with it, is because I am one of the lodge’s founding members. When Pathfinder Society started in my area, I would see quite a few couples show up for a game day, and then never appear again. When I ran into one of them again, I was told they tried it, but it was too “bros club” for them and that they were more interested in private games where the woman felt more comfortable.

When I brought this up to my Venture Captain, it felt like it was pushed under the rug. I am soft spoken and get spoken over a lot, to the point that when I run games for our local game day, I ask my fiancé to read the briefing, that way people won’t interrupt. When he isn’t available, I go quiet and wait for the rude parties to finish and realize that the story will not move on without me. It is very frustrating.

Our lodge recently ran the Year of the Shadow Lodge Special for our state. After waiting until two weeks before the event, I stepped up to help organize the gms because our Venture Captain, whose idea this was, didn’t. I created a flyer, which I gave to people to distribute around our region and the neighboring regions. I helped organize the sign ups we were getting into tables for our gms to know what to prep. I also helped prep every tier from level one to level nine, which I then emailed to the gms for our special along with an itinerary. I even created table tents with little handouts to give to people when they walked in to help them find their tables easier. I coordinated with my two Venture Lieutenants, while copying my Venture Captain on everything. I heard nothing from him during this time.

Then the day of the special rolled around. I did not sleep well the night before because I was so excited. When I got to the location where we were holding our gm meeting before the special, everyone was there except our Venture Captain. We started the meeting without him. After thirty minutes of going through the scenario over points that our tables may get stuck on, our VC finally arrived. The first words out of his mouth were that it was “my fault” that he went to the wrong location, despite that everyone else arrived at the primary location. He then proceeded to rip apart the scenario and completely change what we had all talked about and agreed upon as a group.

Right before the event was about to begin, he told the gm who was running the 10-11 tier that a player MUST play at this tier because he hadn’t read the meet up properly and it wasn’t his fault. Our 10-11 was already at six people for a season two, and I had personally promised this gm that he was not going to have to run a six person table, never-the-less a seven person table. When I brought this up to our VC, he told me that I had no right to question him and that the person who signed up as the sixth person was going to have to play down at the 8-9 table. I was livid. I told our Venture Captain that it was not fair to the person who signed up on time to be forced to play down, and that we should not be showing favoritism. He did not care.

I left the venue to go out to my fiancé’s car, that way no one could see me cry. After talking it over with my fiancé, I decided that I would still run, though I was shaking in anger the entire time, because it was too late to try and find another gm. I feel as if this whole incident could have been avoided had I been a guy.

My Venture Captain tends to ignore what I and the other two women have to say in my community when topics are brought up and I have to have my fiancé abdicate for me. After the incident with the Special, I avoided Pathfinder Society for a month. I still do not feel comfortable with my local lodge, but I do not have my own car to go anywhere else, so I tag along and gm tables for tiers that I know my Venture Captain will not be playing in.

Edit: Everyone, thank you for advising me to contact Mike Brock. However, someone else at my lodge has already brought this to his attention. I felt that this was a valuable contribution to this thread and that there is not much to "fix" the bad taste that has been left in my mouth due to how my VC handled the situation.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks for sharing, Quill. I think it's important to make things like this visible.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

I think its equally important that such issues be brought to Mike Brock's attention.

I feel fortunate our local VO is female.

Silver Crusade

That needs to be brought to Mike Brock's attention. That is unacceptable behavior.


Jeez, that is really sad to hear. I am genuinely saddened by the fact that those have been your experiences.

I echo trollbill though, that sounds like something that needs to.be raised with Mike.

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