Women in PFS

[Dragios]

One of my favourite authors posted a story on his Facebook and it struck a cord with me and so I thought I would post something similar here. In the article, it was mentioned that the gaming community is predominantly male. And that is correct. There are very few women who actually come out to sessions. The ones that do are brought out by their significant others. I have seen only 4 women come out on their own to play.

So I asked 4 women from my work, their ages range from 24-30, to see if they would be willing to come out and try PFS. Three said no and the last said she would think about it. I've asked other women, my wife, and my sister about this issue and I have summarized their comments down below:

1) Women are intimidated by the heaviness of the rules. This came from my wife. She feels that when she comes out to games that because she doesn't know the rules, she feels stupid in front of the other players
2) Women are intimidated by the other players. This is from a women who went to a con. She sat down at a table, and was promptly made to feel unwelcome by 3 of the 6 players. The few times she comes out now is with her boyfriend as she feels that the antagonism toward her is less.
3) Hygene. This one comes from my sister. This one I can relate to. Sitting next to a guy who has yet to take his yearly bath is not a good first impression.
4) Not enough other women. This is from a woman who plays PFS with her husband. She has told me that she feels more comfortable at the table when other women are present. And I agree with her. When I'm forced to go clothes shopping with my wife for her clothing, man do I feel awkward as I feel like everyone is staring at me.

So how do we encourage women to try PFS? Because let's face it, with more women who come, more men will follow. Here are my suggestions:

Event coordinators, try and sit them at the table with other women, or barring that somebody who won't alienate them. You have the best knowledge of your players.

GMs, assign someone at your table, again preferably a woman, to help them through the scenario. Do not overwhelm them with rules. Give them Valerous, or Kyra as a pregen.

Now unfortunately, this is for women who have already made the decision to try it. I have no idea on how to get them to walk through that gaming store door. Suggestions?

[Kyra Clone #3,785]

There's nothing in PFS rules preventing PFS home games, or using a non-PFS Pathfinder home game to get people into it. Don't get them to walk through the gaming store door. Play in the living room or basement or dining room.

My wife is comfortable now with playing in groups, we go to special events, conventions, etc. We got to this point as a result of playing games within our social group.

Right now we're playing through Dragon's Demand. I'm running, my wife is playing, along with her twin sister, her sister's husband, a former coworker of mine, and a friend of mine from Facebook. In this group, my wife is the most experienced player (except for me and I'm the GM), so she's able to help her sister and the other players.

Don't be locked into the idea of using the gaming store. And wait for a new player to be hooked on the game and established before exposing them to the community at large.

[Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome]

This is a heavily debated topic .. in fact a year or so ago there was a huge .. let me repeat HUGE thread debate on this exact topic; it was headed, posts deleted and it was eventually locked.

The simple answer is there isn't one simple answer to this issue. The reasons people play (male and female alike) are as varied and random as the people that play. What will hook one female could turn another away

i.e. let's make a pink line of gaming stuff because all girls love pink and we'll hook 'em ... personally I don't like pink, I would eschew the entire line and I know others would as well .. not to mention thinking that we have to have pink to play is kind of insulting.

The longer complex answer involves a couple of things (for me at least since this is my opinion as a female gamer)

Take a bath ..

men and women alike this isn't a gender specific issue as women can smell just as bad as the guys

Don't treat me like a 2 headed purple people eater cause I have girly bits..

the biggest thing that is going to make me run screaming from a table is having an entire table of guy go oogly-eyed because I'm a girl. For me, when I'm in a gaming arena, I consider myself another gamer, not a girl.

respect

again this is a two way street .. we are all there for the enjoyment of the game .. don't talk down to me because I'm a girl, don't be condescending because I haven't been playing as long as you.. just don't be a jerk.

I am not bait

don't treat me as bait to draw in more guys .. I'm a gamer, not bait .. I will not bite your hook or eat your fish.

[Nefreet]

I feel that if the community is polite, respectful, helpful, and open to newcomers then you'll attract both men and women to your games.

(this idea applies to different ethnicities and sexual orientations as well)

Rather than asking the people around your area why they don't play, maybe look around at your community and ask why they should play.

[Mojorat]

I dont think any of those issues are speciic to PFS or Gaming or even necessarily women.

1) this is a case of, i dont like to read physics text books for fun. Implying that women cannot understand complex rules. is well basically wrong on alot of levels. Implying somone who as i said isnt naturally inclined to say 'lets sit down and read the big book of physics teaches us today" wont really want to slog through the whole of the rules. This isnt gender specific

2)I am curious what they did to make her feel unwelcome if its a case of 'standing out' because shes outnumbered 900 to 1 this may be a human nature thing. Im guessing if i took up knitting and went to a knitting club there would be a reverse issue. Its unfortunate.

3)I cant coment on this one, medically my sense of smell is poor if it is an issue at the PFS groups i have been at i cant tell. Although taking a shower before any group thing with strangers is a good idea.

4)This is probably the big issue, its solvable really by the women that do play trying to get their friends to come with them.

I dont think any of this stuff is an issue with the groups i am with (well 3 could be but as i said, i wouldn tbe able to tell). While they are outnumbered there are several women with our group and i think only one is there because her SO plays.

[Yiroep]

Anyone could be turned off by any of those other reasons.

- Not knowing the rules? That's definitely something that could apply to anyone.
- Hygiene? Oh god yes...that could be anyone. Also, this is something that's pretty much universally hated. :p

I also think it's partly the fact that they may be new to the game. Think about it this way...you're invited to play a game, and you've never really been an RPG gamer. All the other players know how to play, play well, and are very quick and efficient on how they each take their turns. Then, every time it comes to your turn, someone rolls their eyes and baby steps you through, being condescending about how you can't do this or can't do that, but not really explaining why.

Wouldn't YOU feel unwelcome? Your first ever impression of RPG gaming is a bunch of jerks? Would you stay with that group? I know I wouldn't.

That's how a new gamer feels, and I feel that a lot of new gamers (men OR women, doesn't matter) make the fallacy of equating their first experience to all future experiences, and hence they don't want to try it again. It's not specific to women...it's specific to a person not yet being exposed to gaming. It just so happens that a lot of women are going to be new gamers because unfortunately that's the state of society at this time.

I have to agree 100% with Nefreet. Having a community that is welcoming to all new gamers is the key to attracting everyone. First impressions mean a lot.

[nosig]

wow...

My last few games have been "different" I guess.

I "Hosted" at my apartment a few weeks ago, and had a good turn out (12 people). My wife just ran her first game (Yeah for the shy judge!). She had 4 players... one single guy, a mom (her husband doesn't play), and two 13 year old girls. They had a LOT of fun (my table had to go ask them to "use their indoor voice")... my table had a nine year old girl, a dad, and an older couple...

For the "second slot" we sent the younger kids (and parents) home, and replaced them with another couple. All told, 12 gamers, 7 female and 5 male... and the three youngest were female (ages 13,13,9).

But then, I've been lucky recruiting... been trying to pick up some more younger players though. Our ages range from under 10 to over 60...

I'll be hosting again this weekend. hopeing to have much the same turnout, this time closer to 50-50 male/female (though all the "younger set" is still female).

[Aloriel]

A few guidelines I would recommend (and this is not necessarily true for all women):

1) Avoid locker room style talk. I know a large number of women that are put off by discussions of male parts, references to male parts, "is she hot?" type comments, or slang references to female parts (calling people a "c**t", or talking about "t*ts and a**").

2) Avoid using the tired expression "Girl gamers are always either ugly or taken". This can only backfire on you if they happen to be attractive by your standards and not taken. It's also been heard by every experienced girl gamer probably at least 10 times.

3) Avoid hitting on us. We're here to game, not to find a romantic partner. If, after several sessions of the game, you suggest getting a cup of coffee or going out to a bar (assuming that we're of age and all that)... that would be FAR more welcome. Get to know us first. Also, pay attention to rings on fingers. Married women don't want to date (generally speaking), and neither do lesbians.

4) Don't be intimidated by us and don't coddle us. Most of the time, we're just as serious about gaming as you. If we're a new player, we're new like any male player. If we're an experienced player, we'll be insulted by coddling just like an experienced male player would be.

[Grumpus]

Tons of women play in the Minneapolis area. I looked through the 54 tables i have played/Gmed and found that at least 28 of them included women.

[Muser]

We have a couple of very active females locally and the community is generally jovial and easy to approach etc. It's just that gamers are often shy people: for someone an rpg session might be the only proper social outlet they have, so the few, almost token, bad apples in the bunch that would just be ignored in another social context become even more disruptive than usual.

Unfortunately, this goes double for gender & sex. There's nothing quite so jarring as getting over, say, social anxiety, only to have someone leering you on the table or to see someone and just know they are there because of your...eh, bits.

Hell, this is a hobby. Hobbies should be fun.

[gnrrrg]

To expand on what Aloriel said:

Aloriel wrote:

1) Avoid locker room style talk. I know a large number of women that are put off by discussions of male parts, references to male parts, "is she hot?" type comments, or slang references to female parts (calling people a "c**t", or talking about "t*ts and a**").

There is a general impression that all D&D (Pathfinder still isn't as well known to non-gamers) play sessions will include someone who is like Cheeto guy from the skit. "Roll the dice to see if I'm getting drunk! Are there any girls in the tavern? If there are any girls I'm totally gonna do them!" I've never been in a non-PFS game that breaks down to that level of conduct between adventures and there really isn't time in a PFS session to go party at the tavern. Yes, a few bawdy jokes will be told - by both men and women - in some PFS sessions, but the idea that RPGs are solely for people with no sex life to have an imaginary sex life is not true for most RPGers. The world must be told this.

Aloriel wrote:

3) Avoid hitting on us. We're here to game, not to find a romantic partner. If, after several sessions of the game, you suggest getting a cup of coffee or going out to a bar (assuming that we're of age and all that)... that would be FAR more welcome. Get to know us first. Also, pay attention to rings on fingers. Married women don't want to date (generally speaking), and neither do lesbians.

This can be a genuine problem, but on the other side of the coin there are going to be some women who interpret any attempt to be friendly or helpful as hitting on them. Women must be informed that sometimes the guy who is telling you about his character just likes to talk about his character.

Additional ideas:

1 - According to GM 101, the GM has final say in what happens at their table including the right to tell people to leave. Use it. If the conversation gets overly crass then tell them to tone it down or leave. Players start being rude to or intimidating other players, tell them to cut it out or leave.

2 - Go round robin if you need to. It's supposed to be a group game. One thing I hate is when I'm at a table where one or two people assume leadership rolls and just blurt out what the group is doing without letting anyone else talk. From time to time the GM just has to go around the table asking, "What are you doing?" to each player. "What are you doing while he ____?" is a better phrasing to allow players to know that they don't have to just follow one person's lead. If you feel round robin will slow the game down then occasionally ask, "Is ANYONE ELSE doing anything?" with emphasis to hint that one or two people have been dominating the game for too long.

3 - Steer new players toward easier to play classes. The spell lists, being spread throughout multiple books, make it harder for someone not familiar with the game to build a good caster, so they either have to put up with trying to track down what spells they want or build a "bad" character and you risk other players criticizing them. Low-level fighter class characters and rogues are fairly easy to play rules-wise.

4 - Along a similar vein, prep extra references for the iconic characters. Print out spells (or at least have book and page number available) for the casters. Any class feature or feat that isn't figured into the character stats should be spelled out as well (I think they have done this already on some of the iconic sheets). Droogami doesn't have any stats listed on Lini's sheet - print something out for him. Basically, anything that isn't going to be obvious to a new player should be made available for them.

5 - Run a CRB only session. More experienced players may not like this, but for a new player creating their first character a lot of the intimidation from veterans will be cut down if they are "handicapped" in their build. Check out the scenario to make sure going CRB only isn't going to be too limiting for success before going this route.

6 - Punish the group and blame it on a jerk. True story, I was running a scenario with a new player who was playing a bard - the scenario had a part where, in order to gain help from a local tribe, a performance check would have to be done (the tribe liked story-tellers). Perfect, the spot light can shine on the new player and they will feel included. That part of the scenario came up and, as everyone turns to the bard and tells her she's on, one of the self-elected leaders of the group blurts out, "and I assist," and rolls a die. I gave the bard a -4 to their check and said it was because the other player's interruptions kept distracting the audience. I did wait until the bard rolled and I noted that their roll was a high one, so the penalty wasn't going to hurt them before saying this.

7 - Talk to your trouble makers. Before the game if you notice you have several newer players and one or two veterans who like to dominate the game then take the veterans aside before you start and let them know that you'd like the newbs to have a chance to play.

[nosig]

gnrrrg you give really great advice (mostly for beginners - and why are we figuring the females at the table are the beginners? or the players with the weaker rules knowledge? This is often true - but not always. The same could be said about the younger players...):

But I fear you lost me with #6...

If the player does something objectionable - I'll tell him, I don't punish his PC. If I don't like the way he is playing (because he's being a jerk and "butting in" or talking over another player... I am not going to punish him by doing something in game to his PC, when the problem is the PLAYER.

This would be like kicking a guys dog, 'cause he stole my parking spot. And it punishes the other players at my table. You know, the ones there to have fun? Address the root of the problem quickly and get on with the game... otherwise you will be getting griefers who do it BACAUSE they can mess up (add penilities to) the other players at the table.

Effectively what you said in #7, but do it when the player is acting like a jerk. Fix the problem when it occures and don't make a big deal of it (unless it is a big problem)...

[Feegle]

Aloriel wrote:

Married women don't want to date (generally speaking), and neither do lesbians.

Sorry to nitpick, but most of the lesbians that I know do want to date - they just don't want to date people with man-bits. :)

[Vrog Skyreaver]

I know a few female gamers as well....hell, my roommate is one. I think the key to dealing with people of any stripe is remember that they're people. Treat everyone with respect, and let people know that you expect the same, and you'll have success in life, not just gaming.

or to put it another way, as my Grandma used to say "if you can't be nice, be polite."

[Akerlof]

I've found that treating women just like you would any other person works pretty well: Find out their level of experience and knowledge, explain what PFS is all about, ask them what they're interested in doing in the game, make suggestions for choosing pregens or creating characters based on that, etc. All people react better when you pay attention to what they say and appear genuinely interested in what they're interested in. (Read How to Win Friends and Influence People, it really does work!) Like Aloriel said, women are showing up at PFS games to play Pathfinder, so if you focus on playing Pathfinder everyone's going to have a good time.

Most of the other specific advice is just as true for men as it is for women, it's great advice for making any new player feel welcome.

One thing I'm trying for players who aren't comfortable with the rules is having character creation sessions on non-gaming nights. Spend a couple hours talking about how to build a character and how to play it (the mechanics, tips and tricks, and explanations of the reasoning behind such,) in a low stress situation really seems to help people. It's easier to actually learn the multiple uses of Grease when you're relaxed and can ask questions and think through the answers yourself than when there are 5 other people staring at you waiting to make a decision so the game can move on, for example.

Finally, pretty much all 4 of Dragios' reasons for women not playing apply to everyone else. Reword #4 to "There isn't anyone I feel comfortable around" and you're golden. I certainly wouldn't have started PFS if my fiancee hadn't dragged me out to some games; I didn't know anyone and interacting with strangers is very difficult. How do we get more women to play? I don't know, the best I can offer is to be an inviting group and treat everyone who's interested as an individual who's interested in playing the game.

[warfteiner]

Some of my most vocal, and regular, gamers are women. My wife, for example, gets incredibly perturbed when she misses a play opportunity ;)

The thing that I've found that works best is:

Remember that women who game are gamers.

They're not "one of the guys", or "unicorns", or "a minority in the industry". It's a throwaway to consider our gamers in terms of "young", "old", "male", "female" and so on - just treat them like they're gamers. The dice will roll, I promise you!

Recruiting female players for your table should take absolutely no special attention. As with any curious or reluctant potential dice-chucker, run a fun game with a great GM; "We Be Goblins!" has been instrumental in building my store's gaming group.

[Avatar-1]

Akerlof wrote:

I've found that treating women just like you would any other person works pretty well

Pretty sure this is the only right answer.

[Lady Ophelia]

*posts here to tag it for later when I don't have a head cold and can think a little more coherently. But this is a good topic*

[Hayato Ken]

This gender and fe/male discussions get tiring.

If you don´tknow someone better, treat it like a person and try to behave. You never know their packages and it´s also not your business.
Should work fine.

[blackbloodtroll]

Yeah.

Many of those gender specific bits of advice, actually apply to both sexes.

[BigNorseWolf]

dragios wrote:

2) Women are intimidated by the other players. This is from a women who went to a con. She sat down at a table, and was promptly made to feel unwelcome by 3 of the 6 players. The few times she comes out now is with her boyfriend as she feels that the antagonism toward her is less.

This doesn't really give gamers something specific enough to act on.

[trollbill]

I have to agree with everyone else. Having both a wife and 2 daughters that are gamers, there should be no special treatment of them one way or another. All those things listed you shouldn't be doing with female gamers you shouldn't be doing with male gamers either.

Ironically, the tables I sit at where I am the only guy at the table end up being far more raunchy than the one's where there is only one girl. And the worst case of hygiene issues I have ever experienced was from a female who also had no sense of personal space. She was in every sense a stereotypical offensive nerd with the exception of her gender, which just goes to show that equality cuts both ways.

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed.

Women are fully capable of leering at others, for their "bits".

Women are also fully capable of be condescending, and talking down to others.

[PrinceRaven]

I find being a civilised human being helps.

[Slothsy]

So, in general, when you're looking at expanding player diversity within a particular group or organization, it's a growth process that has to happen. It's not an easy process. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it! Also, you can't think about it as "How can we get more women in here?" but "How can we be more welcoming to women, whether or not we actually have women playing at the moment?"

In order to really expand the diversity of a lodge, there's a good amount of prep work that needs to be done. First of all, if you DO have women involved in the lodge already, talk with them. Get them involved! Ask them what their experiences are, and what big issues need to be addressed. They’ll know better than any guy in the lodge and will specific knowledge about your lodge’s problems.

First you need to be aware of the overall culture and implications it has on players looking to get started. For example, there are hurdles to joining a gaming group as it with, since source books cost money, learning rules takes expert advice and you need to find time play in order build your knowledge and enjoy it. Women also have to work hard to overcome additional stereotypes of gaming and dealing with hostility they may face from other players. I don't know if you've ever sat down to play with a new group and had an authenticity test, but it's not pleasant. i want to play the game, not have a pop quiz on my character class and its related campaign setting information.

In addition, I've personally had to face uncomfortable sessions where men flirted with me the entire session to the point that they even had their characters give mine consumables. There's a great deal of uncertainty as a player - I definitely don't want to lead people on (I'm super gay), but I've also had people react with anger and make my experience miserable when I bluntly refuse their advances. Whenever anyone hits on me during a game, I have to decide between two types of being uncomfortable: quietly suffering through it, or risk angering another player. In either case, I'm stuck at a table for 4-6 hours with this. For the love of god, if you're going to hit on another player, leave it until after the game is done so they can escape if they're not interested.

You have to have hard conversations within your group about how you're going to respond to these interactions. It's going to be uncomfortable because it requires significant change. You're going to have to talk to "problem players" (who may not be the player that has charisma IRL as their dump stat) about their behaviors.

In addition, because of the background radiation that people bring in before joining PFS, you need to be aware that some interactions may be interpreted differently. Do you have an optimizer guy who spends the time before game sessions giving advice to other players on what archetype they should be taken? That may just be annoying to some players, but some women may also interpret that as a more hostile act. In this case, it doesn't matter what the intent behind that actions are, but how they're interpreted. That interpretation will be what makes people stay or go.

Yes, there needs to be newbie-friendliness as a rule. There is a legacy of exclusion within tabletop gaming that means that women are more likely than men not to have a lot of experience. You shouldn’t assume this of any player, though. When a man comes in to start playing, you can generally gauge his experience level fairly quickly through conversation. The same goes for women. Make opportunities for new players to come in that are specifically women-friendly, but also understand that women will get involved in other ways.

Finally, if you’ve had a number of women come in, stay around for one session, the leave, you should try to figure out why that is. You don’t necessarily have to hunt down them after the fact – just try to have a quick conversation post-game about how they liked it, if they’re thinking about coming back and just generally seeking feedback.

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation and needs to come from a genuine desire for inclusion rather than from a wish to increase numbers.

[trollbill]

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

[thejeff]

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

Way to read something into one word out of a giant post.

[Lamontius]

there is occasional confusion in some of the posts on this thread where the words 'woman', 'female' and 'girl' are being used in place of 'person who is new to Pathfinder and/or tabletop RPGs in general'

[Zach W.]

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

This is not a catch 22.

Some PEOPLE respond to being treated 'delicatly'. I have met an equal number of men AND women who respond to this. There is also a difference between GMing softly to a person at the table, and the entire table in general.

Some people enjoy learning by being hit in the face multiple times, others learn by watching others, others learn from coaches. Everyone has a different learning style and none of them are gender exclusive.

When teaching, a GM should always lean on the side of discretion and coach the players while soft balling the scenario. They can always come up to you afterwards and say, "Hey I learned a lot, but next time can we kick it up a notch?"

People who constantly "advise" other players on their class will also turn MOST folks away in general. "Story Time" and "Build Concepts" are also a HUGE factor in this. Story time is fun and all, but it steers the group away from the task or situation at hand, and build concepts always sink time because they inevitably turn to rules arguing or debating.

[thejeff]

Lamontius wrote:

there is occasional confusion in some of the posts on this thread where the words 'woman', 'female' and 'girl' are being used in place of 'person who is new to Pathfinder and/or tabletop RPGs in general'

Do you mean like in the title and the first post?

Or that some people are trying to generalize from issues that women might have to issues that any new player might have. Which are overlapping sets of issues, but not entirely the same.

Women are often assumed to be new to RPGs, even when they're not. The problems with unwanted flirtation aren't common to new male players or restricted to new female ones. There are others.

[rknop]

For what it's worth (which probably is not very much), my anecdotal observation as a relatively well socialized overweight balding middle aged white guy was that at the tables I was at at PaizoCon, for the most part last year women were treated pretty well-- as "another gamer", as it were. Of the four PFS tables I played at, two were all-male (as far as I remember; I don't remember all the players, so I could well be forgetting gender as well). At the other two, one had one woman, the other had two. (Well, the second table had a 14- or 15-year old girl, and her father was also present, but it was very clear that she was a full-on gamer herself, not just hanging out with dad.) They were, as best I could tell from my admittedly biased-to-be-clueless perspecdive, treated with as much respect as anybody else at the table.

At the two non-PFS games I played, one was actually GMed by a woman (none other than the talented Christina Stiles, whose name I probably just misspelled), and there was another woman player. Again, things seemed pretty good.

The one bad note was at a PFS game I GMed on Thursday night. One guy, who was a little bit too much into his liquor, made an extremely sexist comment, that got the two women at the table quite angry. (The one who was not the target of the comment was visibly more angry.) I think the situation there was defused, but it was extremely awkward for a bit there. The guy was trying to be ironic rather than out-and-out sexist, but it really didn't work.

Also, at PaizoCon last year, I didn't run into any egregious instances of bad hygine. (Noise is a different matter; the noise in the PFS room was overwhelming.) I may have just been lucky. I have run into some pretty egregious episodes of failed bathing from students in classes I taught. (Indeed, in one class of three people, I instructed the students only to work on the homework until 10PM that night, after which they were required to go to bed and get a good night's sleep, and then shower the next morning.)

This post is not intended to be an "everything is OK" post, just a very tiny set of anecdotal observations from one person that, as far as I can tell, at least sometimes at PaizoCon it's OK.

(I've had women in my home campaign over the years as well, and that's generally been just fine.)

[thejeff]

Zach Williams wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

This is not a catch 22.

Some PEOPLE respond to being treated 'delicatly'. I have met an equal number of men AND women who respond to this. There is also a difference between GMing softly to a person at the table, and the entire table in general.

Some people enjoy learning by being hit in the face multiple times, others learn by watching others, others learn from coaches. Everyone has a different learning style and none of them are gender exclusive.

When teaching, a GM should always lean on the side of discretion and coach the players while soft balling the scenario. They can always come up to you afterwards and say, "Hey I learned a lot, but next time can we kick it up a notch?"

People who constantly "advise" other players on their class will also turn MOST folks away in general. "Story Time" and "Build Concepts" are also a HUGE factor in this. Story time is fun and all, but it steers the group away from the task or situation at hand, and build concepts always sink time because they inevitably turn to rules arguing or debating.

He also didn't say "Treat women delicately." He said "Encouraging women in gaming is ... a delicate operation", which is very different.

One of the things that's delicate about it may in fact be the delicate balance between overprotecting them and letting obnoxious guys ruin their game.

[trollbill]

Zach Williams wrote:

Some PEOPLE respond to being treated 'delicatly'. I have met an equal number of men AND women who respond to this.

I agree that this is not a gender specific issue. I was merely responding the idea that we are supposed to be discussing issues with female gamers. Though I have really seen nothing in this thread that indicates that treatment of female gamers should be any different from male gamers.

[Slothsy]

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

It's delicate in that you can't simply choose what to change and change nothing. You have to constantly be responding to how those changes affect the situation. You really using a scalpel, not a hammer.

I'm not saying to treat women delicately at all. Just that you need to be careful with what interventions you use in regards to how your individual lodge and community functions.

[trollbill]

Slothsy wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

It's delicate in that you can't simply choose what to change and change nothing. You have to constantly be responding to how those changes affect the situation. You really using a scalpel, not a hammer.

I'm not saying to treat women delicately at all. Just that you need to be careful with what interventions you use in regards to how your individual lodge and community functions.

Agreed, but doesn't all that apply to the male gender as well?

[Slothsy]

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Slothsy wrote:

Encouraging women in gaming is awesome. But it’s also a delicate operation ...

This is sort of a Catch-22. While some women will respond favorably to being treated 'delicately,' others will resent the implication that they need to be.

It's delicate in that you can't simply choose what to change and change nothing. You have to constantly be responding to how those changes affect the situation. You really using a scalpel, not a hammer.

I'm not saying to treat women delicately at all. Just that you need to be careful with what interventions you use in regards to how your individual lodge and community functions.

Agreed, but doesn't all that apply to the male gender as well?

Well, yes. But if we're talking about how to encourage women in PFS, I felt it was something to mention. I've seen a number of organizations that tried to increase participation of women by increasing recruitment while ignoring any of the organizational issues that kept women from becoming involved after being recruitment.

[Robert A Matthews]

How about just treat women at the table as if they were a person just like anyone else instead of some mystical creature you have to appease in order to hold its interest? It doesn't matter what gender someone is, everyone is prone to confusing a rule, forgetting things, and being new to the game.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Bruno grapple men and women equally.*

*Bruno realize this double entendre.**

**Entendres, by RAW, specifically allowed to stack.***

***Bruno still not know what entendre is.****

[thejeff]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

How about just treat women at the table as if they were a person just like anyone else instead of some mystical creature you have to appease in order to hold its interest? It doesn't matter what gender someone is, everyone is prone to confusing a rule, forgetting things, and being new to the game.

Do you ignore the fact that often (not always or even mostly, but often) the other (male) players will treat them differently?

I absolutely agree that the ideal would be that everyone would treat women like they were people and not anything special, but the question is how to get everyone to do that.

This isn't even necessarily about women new to Pathfinder or gaming in general, but PFS and by extension other open gaming groups. Where even experienced female gamers report being treated as if they knew nothing and needed to be helped with mechanics, often as a means of hitting on them.

[trollbill]

thejeff wrote:

The problems with unwanted flirtation aren't common to new male players or restricted to new female ones. There are others.

I agree that unwanted flirtation is a more common problem with women than men in our society, but in my personal experience, I have not seen this to be any more pernicious in the gaming world than in mainstream society. Having said that, however, I acknowledge that other peoples' experiences may have been different. Otherwise this video would not exist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ

[pH unbalanced]

I play and GM PFS at several different venues around town. Which ones tend to attract and keep the most female players? The ones with female GMs.

That's one reason I decided to start GMing more. I can really see a difference in the players we retain.

Can that be a chicken and egg problem if you don't have any female players to begin with? Absolutely.

[Zach W.]

trollbill wrote:

Zach Williams wrote:

Some PEOPLE respond to being treated 'delicatly'. I have met an equal number of men AND women who respond to this.

I agree that this is not a gender specific issue. I was merely responding the idea that we are supposed to be discussing issues with female gamers. Though I have really seen nothing in this thread that indicates that treatment of female gamers should be any different from male gamers.

I do apologize for targeting your statement then, I may have misunderstood your meaning!

[thejeff]

trollbill wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The problems with unwanted flirtation aren't common to new male players or restricted to new female ones. There are others.

I agree that unwanted flirtation is a more common problem with women than men in our society, but in my personal experience, I have not seen this to be any more pernicious in the gaming world than in mainstream society. Having said that, however, I acknowledge that other peoples' experiences may have been different. Otherwise this video would not exist:

Given that several experience female gamers have commented on it in this (and other) threads, I think dismissing it on the grounds of "I haven't seen it" would be a bad idea. I also think, if you want to encourage more female gamers, "It's no worse than mainstream society" is a pretty low standard.

I think organizers and GMs and even individual players who want to encourage female gamers need to be prepared to treat them differently, not because women are special and delicate and need special treatment, but because other men will often be treating them differently and not in a good way. A counterbalance, if you will.

[trollbill]

Zach Williams wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Zach Williams wrote:

Some PEOPLE respond to being treated 'delicatly'. I have met an equal number of men AND women who respond to this.

I agree that this is not a gender specific issue. I was merely responding the idea that we are supposed to be discussing issues with female gamers. Though I have really seen nothing in this thread that indicates that treatment of female gamers should be any different from male gamers.

I do apologize for targeting your statement then, I may have misunderstood your meaning!

No problem. This thread is very confusing that way.

[Wrong John Silver]

I also think that part of the issue is looking at who is a nongamer. When I was a kid, 20+ years ago, RPGs were much more male-dominated than today. However, every game was more male-dominated than today. It didn't matter if it was a sport, D&D, chess, Pac-Man, what have you, if it was a game, it was male-dominated. Women were socialized to be nongamers. A female gamer had to buck societal trends, and accept the fact that it wasn't just other gamers who would make her uncomfortable, but other nongamers as well. I distinctly remember a couple of times a young woman showing some interest in finding out what D&D was about--as long as word didn't get back to the rest of her friends.

Fast forward to today, and things have changed. There are still women who are socialized as nongamers, but let's face it, today virtually everyone has played at least something. Nongamers are fewer and further between, and much more women are gamers in general--although nongamers are still well represented among older women. My present group is all male, and most of us are married, and our wives are supportive of our hobby, but have zero interest whatsoever of joining in. My wife, in particular, has never played a video game, and wouldn't start.

Nongamers are nongamers, regardless of gender. I don't think you'll be able to get a nongamer interested in the game.

[trollbill]

thejeff wrote:

trollbill wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The problems with unwanted flirtation aren't common to new male players or restricted to new female ones. There are others.

I agree that unwanted flirtation is a more common problem with women than men in our society, but in my personal experience, I have not seen this to be any more pernicious in the gaming world than in mainstream society. Having said that, however, I acknowledge that other peoples' experiences may have been different. Otherwise this video would not exist:

Given that several experience female gamers have commented on it in this (and other) threads, I think dismissing it on the grounds of "I haven't seen it" would be a bad idea.

The inclusion of my statements regarding the video should have made it clear I was not dismissing it based on my personal experience.

Quote:

I also think, if you want to encourage more female gamers, "It's no worse than mainstream society" is a pretty low standard.

Just because it is a society problem and not a PFS specific problem does not mean it isn't a problem. But it also means we are no more likely to succeed in solving it than the rest of society has been. It's a slow process. Gaming is likely exacerbated by the fact that it is seen as a traditional male hobby which might put it in the same vein as something like Ice Hockey which is also likely to have similar gender problems. The good news is that I have seen evidence that the male dominance of the gaming world is indeed at least slowly diminishing.

Again, I am not saying we shouldn't be doing anything about it. Simply that I am not sure treating it as a PFS specific problem is going to solve it.

Quote:

I think organizers and GMs and even individual players who want to encourage female gamers need to be prepared to treat them differently, not because women are special and delicate and need special treatment, but because other men will often be treating them differently and not in a good way. A counterbalance, if you will.

But wouldn't that indicate that the people we really need to be treating differently are the ones that treat women gamers differently, not the women gamers themselves?

[thejeff]

Wrong John Silver wrote:

I also think that part of the issue is looking at who is a nongamer. When I was a kid, 20+ years ago, RPGs were much more male-dominated than today. However, every game was more male-dominated than today. It didn't matter if it was a sport, D&D, chess, Pac-Man, what have you, if it was a game, it was male-dominated. Women were socialized to be nongamers. A female gamer had to buck societal trends, and accept the fact that it wasn't just other gamers who would make her uncomfortable, but other nongamers as well. I distinctly remember a couple of times a young woman showing some interest in finding out what D&D was about--as long as word didn't get back to the rest of her friends.

Fast forward to today, and things have changed. There are still women who are socialized as nongamers, but let's face it, today virtually everyone has played at least something. Nongamers are fewer and further between, and much more women are gamers in general--although nongamers are still well represented among older women. My present group is all male, and most of us are married, and our wives are supportive of our hobby, but have zero interest whatsoever of joining in. My wife, in particular, has never played a video game, and wouldn't start.

Nongamers are nongamers, regardless of gender. I don't think you'll be able to get a nongamer interested in the game.

OTOH, everyone was a nongamer once.

Some came to it late in life.