Women in PFS


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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If Women outside the hobby are getting their ideas of what Gamers are from shows like Felicia Day's The Guild, or the Big Bang Theory, I wouldn't blame them for keeping as far away as possible.

Being thought of as "bait" to bring in more guys won't help either.

On the other hand, my first gaming group at Rutgers was half female. And I suspect it was because none of the group members, guy or gal, were members of the local campus RPGA which was entirely male.

The other thing is that my gaming group was was almost entirely humanities and art majors, whereas the RPGA folks were all engineers with a few history and hard science folks thrown in.


thejeff wrote:

OTOH, everyone was a nongamer once.

Some came to it late in life.

That's a very good point. But it also doesn't mean that every nongamer is a potential future gamer.

But the nongamer thing isn't about gender anymore.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a couple posts. Leave personal insults out of the conversation, please.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

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I see that there is some concern that our hobby attracts those that lack social grace, and that it could almost be an excuse for such boorish or lecherous behavior. To me, this is unacceptable. There is no excuse for such behavior; those people are just plain rude. And PFS is too awesome to be spoiled by rudeness.

In our area, we have some women that play PFS. They are by and large more skilled players than most of the people I see. I think this is because most of them come from a gaming background and have been playing RPGs for a while. Given this, and my general outlook on life, I see no reason to treat them any different than other players, with respect and courtesy.

Just be polite to everyone at your table and you'll have a great time.


trollbill wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I also think, if you want to encourage more female gamers, "It's no worse than mainstream society" is a pretty low standard.

Just because it is a society problem and not a PFS specific problem does not mean it isn't one. But it also means we are no more likely to succeed in solving than the rest of society has been. Gaming is likely exacerbated by the fact that it is seen a traditional male hobby which might put it in the same vein as something like Ice Hockey which is also likely to have similar gender problems. The good news is that I have seen evidence that the male dominance of the gaming world is indeed at least slowly diminishing.

Again, I am not saying we shouldn't be doing anything about it. Simply that I am not sure treating it as a PFS specific problem is going to solve it.

It's not going to solve the larger problem, but we can make our little corner of the world better.

trollbill wrote:
Quote:
I think organizers and GMs and even individual players who want to encourage female gamers need to be prepared to treat them differently, not because women are special and delicate and need special treatment, but because other men will often be treating them differently and not in a good way. A counterbalance, if you will.
But wouldn't that indicate that the people we really need to be treating differently are the ones that treat women gamers differently, not the women gamers themselves?

Well, yes. But that generally means intervening when they do so, which is often taken as treating women differently by protecting them or "White Knighting".

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

LazarX wrote:
The other thing is that my gaming group was was almost entirely humanities and art majors, whereas the RPGA folks were all engineers with a few history and hard science folks thrown in.

This is an interesting observation and one that jibes with my own experience. Though where I am seeing it is not RPGA vs. other RPGs, but rather home gaming versus gaming in a public environment. I frequently ask players who stop attending our local games why they stopped. The most frequent answers I get, which include schedule conflicts, health issues, too structured of an environment, and having found a good home game that satisfies their needs, do not seem to be gender specific. The only response I have gotten more from women then men was that they did not like the loud environment of the typical game store or con. Now I get this complaint from men a lot too, its just that none of them have stated it is why they haven't come back.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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thejeff wrote:

OTOH, everyone was a nongamer once.

Some came to it late in life.

When the doctor tried to slap me i told him he had to roll thaco!

3/5

my first sucker was a d20!

Liberty's Edge 3/5

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Ok, I'm going to throw out some generalities here. Please respond an a new thread to tell me how 'wrong', 'small-minded', and 'other bad things' I am.

I *think* that maybe one of the problems with attracting and keeping females in our hobbies is highlighted by this very thread. That problem being that the GUYS are the ones doing the most talking. We need to shut our yaps and LISTEN to what the female gamers say on this subject -- both here and at the table. It's not to say that in being male, you cannot have a valid opinion on this subject. It's more to say, "hush, let the ladies talk and TELL US how to attract more female people to the cooperative tabletop roleplaying hobby".

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

talbanus wrote:
I *think* that maybe one of the problems with attracting and keeping females in our hobbies is highlighted by this very thread. That problem being that the GUYS are the ones doing the most talking. We need to shut our yaps and LISTEN to what the female gamers say on this subject -- both here and at the table. It's not to say that in being male, you cannot have a valid opinion on this subject. It's more to say, "hush, let the ladies talk and TELL US how to attract more female people to the cooperative tabletop roleplaying hobby".

I agree, though that would mean they need to identify themselves as such. Gender is not easy to tell on the internet. I mean, you'd never guess I am a hot 15 year old cheerleader, right?


Well, Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome, Aloriel, and pH unbalanced have all said they're women.

So far, the advice seems to be: keep clean, stay polite, and no unwanted flirting or coddling. And I'd say most of the guys who care about the topic agree, yes, that needs to be done, in fact, we're doing it already.

Then pH unbalanced has a great addition: having a female GM helps a lot. That's a really valuable new addition to the things we can do.

Which is great, except for those of us in all-male groups. Any advice there?


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Wrong John Silver wrote:


Which is great, except for those of us in all-male groups. Any advice there?

Find a chick and invite her to join your group. Teach her how to GM.

It's called "recruitment" and it's necessary for the growth and continuation of the hobby, hardly rocket surgery.


I suppose I should add that there are still plenty of guys who don't make welcoming environments. But to be frank, I won't tolerate it. Not at my table.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wrong John Silver wrote:

Which is great, except for those of us in all-male groups. Any advice there?

Unless you want a locker room atmosphere, being in an all-male group doesn't have to be an excuse for dropping the social conventions of a presumably civilized society.

If you're happy with your group as it is, that's perfectly fine. If you're not, the answer depends on what the problem is.


LazarX wrote:
Wrong John Silver wrote:

Which is great, except for those of us in all-male groups. Any advice there?

Unless you want a locker room atmosphere, being in an all-male group doesn't have to be an excuse for dropping the social conventions of a presumably civilized society.

If you're happy with your group as it is, that's perfectly fine. If you're not, the answer depends on what the problem is.

No, of course not. I'm not assuming a locker-room atmosphere. It's still a polite, clean, mostly-married group I'm specifically thinking of (my own group).

But then again, now that I think of it, this group is really an old-time circle of friends, and I was an addition a few years back. Recruitment is minor. Orfamay Quest, how do you recruit for games? Assume you're a late-30s married man with a nongamer wife and no kids. How would you recruit?


talbanus wrote:

Ok, I'm going to throw out some generalities here. Please respond an a new thread to tell me how 'wrong', 'small-minded', and 'other bad things' I am.

I *think* that maybe one of the problems with attracting and keeping females in our hobbies is highlighted by this very thread. That problem being that the GUYS are the ones doing the most talking. We need to shut our yaps and LISTEN to what the female gamers say on this subject -- both here and at the table. It's not to say that in being male, you cannot have a valid opinion on this subject. It's more to say, "hush, let the ladies talk and TELL US how to attract more female people to the cooperative tabletop roleplaying hobby".

Listening to women is fundamental, but it's hardly a panacea. What do we do when different women tell us diametrically opposed things? Do both? Because that happened to me.

Humans are individuals. With different circumstances, different POVs, and different preferences. This is something that gets lost on all of these debates. Some new players expect more attention from the GM, because they're learning the ropes. Some hate it, because it implies that they're incompetent. Some are okay with friendly banter from the moment they sit down to play. Most don't like it so much, at least until they get to know the group better. You want an universal solution? You won't find one.

If you want to "recruit" someone you know, find out and and do something about aspects of the game/group that could make them uncomfortable. If it's not somebody you know, but a general "recruitment", just be polite and civil (polite and civil, not uptight). That works most of the time, for everyone.

Oh, and, painting a good picture of the community can be pretty fundamental. If gaming is a nice fun hobby for you with some uncomfortable moments and boorish people here and there, don't let those people and moments represent gaming. People tend to talk about their worst experiences with the hobby, and that's natural, but from an outsider's perspective, it can be pretty frightening.

Would you join a community where one of the talking points is "People need to bath regularly"?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wrong John Silver wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Wrong John Silver wrote:

Which is great, except for those of us in all-male groups. Any advice there?

Unless you want a locker room atmosphere, being in an all-male group doesn't have to be an excuse for dropping the social conventions of a presumably civilized society.

If you're happy with your group as it is, that's perfectly fine. If you're not, the answer depends on what the problem is.

No, of course not. I'm not assuming a locker-room atmosphere. It's still a polite, clean, mostly-married group I'm specifically thinking of (my own group).

But then again, now that I think of it, this group is really an old-time circle of friends, and I was an addition a few years back. Recruitment is minor. Orfamay Quest, how do you recruit for games? Assume you're a late-30s married man with a nongamer wife and no kids. How would you recruit?

The answer to this question presumes that you've established with your wife that you're going to be dedicating a regular space of time for this activity on a recurring basis and that she's good with that.

The rest of the answer is traditional, put up an ad in your local gaming shop, put up notices here, possibly even on cragslist. Letting people who do respond know that you are a gamer in a non gamer family and that the running the group is under their suffrage isn't a bad idea.

3/5

This topic i consider a necessary evil. Personally I do not care if you are young, old, male, female, white, black, polka dotted, or whatever. I want a RPG environment where I can have blinders on and just play the game.

The sad part is that not all people are like me. They want to either treats others different or be treated differently because of X, Y, or Z.

I have seen women treated poorly at tables, and I have seen men treated poorly at tables because a woman was there(they purposely picked on the other guys to impress/show off to the girl). In the end it is a break of the don;t be a jerk rule. There are tons of posts and such of how to deal with the breaking of that rule.

Grand Lodge

My experience of bringing female gamers in, is that it takes a different approach, every time.

There are a few things that I have noticed that work well:

1)Treat them as a new player, and not a new female player.
You don't have to completely dismiss their gender, but it shouldn't be the focus.

2)They will all be different.
Any ideas you have on what your "typical" female gamer is, will be proven wrong, more than once.

3)No woman can accurately speak for all women.
Yes, it's important to listen, and you can get some good advice, but no one woman can speak for how all women work.

These are just few things that I have learned from my own personal experiences.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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talbanus wrote:
I *think* that maybe one of the problems with attracting and keeping females in our hobbies is highlighted by this very thread. That problem being that the GUYS are the ones doing the most talking. We need to shut our yaps and LISTEN to what the female gamers say on this subject -- both here and at the table. It's not to say that in being male, you cannot have a valid opinion on this subject. It's more to say, "hush, let the ladies talk and TELL US how to attract more female people to the cooperative tabletop roleplaying hobby".

So here is Lady Ophelia's: Guide to Getting More Ladies into the Hobby..

1) Bros, it's really simple to get ladies into the hobby: Don't be a jerk. Be awesome.

What does this mean? Well it means a lot of what you guys have been saying in this thread:

-Please keep the hygiene on the up and up. There is a saying us girls get told all the time, and perhaps bros should consider it: "Always step outside of your home, dressed as if you are going to meet the love of your life." No this is not to say, we as gamers are always on the hunt during games, but it does mean take the time to shower and groom. I know many of us are coming from work/other places before games so by default we are already got that in our minds, but if you have been home all day before game.. Take the shower and change clothes before you go out.

-Yes we are ladies. Don't be frightened. We aren't going to break into a thousand pieces if you talk to us. We aren't going to wilter away if you tell a joke. But if you don't like being called an a-hole or other male derogatory name, don't call girls hoes and b-------.

-Yes ladies are/can be GM's. They are awesome. Encourage it and welcome it. If you can't roll with it, go home. No hard feelings.

-If you have a beef with us or something we do, come talk to us privately. Don't go hide in your lairs and whisper things. I have seen many lady players do something not cool, no one say anything and then ask for the player to get kicked out. Wheras if they just said something, it would have prevented bad things and the lady gamers could have just shapen up. Everyone deserves a chance to grow and evolve.

-Ladies aren't dumb. But we will ask questions. Answer them with kindness and patience. That kindness/patience can go a long way at the table and away from the table as well.

At the end of the day, we go back to the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated. While 2/3rds of the men in PFS follow this rule and in many ways exceed expectations of this rule, it's the 1/3 that can ruin the whole bunch and keep women out.

Don't let this happen bros. Be the reason ladies want to come and play, because you make it awesome.

Awesome bros, are the reason many ladies (such as myself) stay in the hobby and make it a better place for all.

Thanks for reading. :)

Grand Lodge

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I just don't have the kind of experience with all these hypothetical male gamers that just suck at interacting with females.

The rare individuals that I have met, that are truly inept at interacting with females, are usually just as bad at interacting with males, and people in general.

That said, I have also dealt with female gamers that suck at social interactions.

I want a good thread, with good advice, so I want to try let people know that over-generalizations and bashing of any gender, should be avoided.

Not that it has happened already, but more of a preemptive strike.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Ok, I understand wanting to hose off a few gamers, but grooming. Really? You don't get to just dictate someone else's personal appearance like that.

Silver Crusade 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Ok, I understand wanting to hose off a few gamers, but grooming. Really? You don't get to just dictate someone else's personal appearance like that.

Hey now, I didn't say how a man should groom. That is honestly to each their own on that one. But consideration goes a LONG way in making people comfortable. I personally feel that the minimum is that you should take a shower and change clothes. If you want to trim and shave and look clean cut, that's on you. If you want to have spiked hair and black eyeliner, that's fine too.

But the quintessential point is that you *tried*. There are many who literally get out of bed, and go straight to their game. Not cool. Take the time. Everyone will thank you later.

Silver Crusade 4/5

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just don't have the kind of experience with all these hypothetical male gamers that just suck at interacting with females.

The rare individuals that I have met, that are truly inept at interacting with females, are usually just as bad at interacting with males, and people in general.

That said, I have also dealt with female gamers that suck at social interactions.

I want a good thread, with good advice, so I want to try let people know that over-generalizations and bashing of any gender, should be avoided.

Not that it has happened already, but more of a preemptive strike.

The problem friend, is that we as a culture and as a species as a whole have this bad habit of making generalizations. We nerds have been labeled as obese, smelly, socially-akward people who cling to weird things. In the past we had pocket protectors, thick black squared glasses, and played games in our parents basements. (Seriously, you should watch Zero Charisma.)

Do I like this? Of course not. But it's what we are up against right now thanks to the 1/3 of our culture I talked about. So we as nerds must evolve and beat our own stereotypes. The sooner we do that, the sooner we have less of these threads.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Lady Ophelia wrote:


Hey now, I didn't say how a man should groom.

But you said they should. And that has more than a few problematic assumptions.

One of the hallmarks, if not the highlights, of geek culture is not caring about things that are unimportant.

Few things are more superfluous than physical appearances.

Many of us don't care how we look*. Pretending to is something I do when I'm working, NOT when I'm trying to have fun.

If you are going to judge someone by anything but the content of their character sheet because they don't meet your standards, then you're engaging in behavior that many of us have, frankly, had more than enough of outside of gaming and don't want to see more of inside of it.

Quote:
So we as nerds must evolve and beat our own stereotypes.

You mean change so people will stop making fun of us?

I'd rather just go with the laugh.

*and boy does it show!

Grand Lodge

Are we getting off topic?

2/5

LazarX wrote:


The other thing is that my gaming group was was almost entirely humanities and art majors, whereas the RPGA folks were all engineers with a few history and hard science folks thrown in.

This. I've been playing DnD and pathfinder for a bit over 10 years now and I've gotten to play with a plethora of different type of people. This right here is truth. In my experience the presentation of how ideas are presented by an engineer are incredibly direct and slightly off-putting to anyone who is either not used to it or doesn't have the knowledge the presenter has(so knew people or casual). This makes it hard for retention of players, not just female.

When you add in the bluntness/awkwardness that some players have at a mixed table we get the problem of some players not being treated as their characters but rather as what they are seen to be, Female, religion or ethnicity. This occurs more frequently than some of you might be aware of. The thing to remember is if someone young, 16-22 lets say, has a bad experience they probably wont try again for many years or until someone they know gets them back into it.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West

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As a female gamer, I no longer participate in my local PFS game days, partly because of timing, but partly because of some of the suggestions on this thread. Mainly around helping out female gamers. A word of advice:

Do not automatically assume that a woman is a less capable gamer than the men at the table because you haven't seen her before. I was being given what the gentleman probably thought was friendly advice about how to build my character. I noticed that I was the only person he offered this advice to, not to the other five men at the table. I may be being a bit precious, but as a gamer of over 20 years experience, and my groups' resident rules and canon lawyer, I found it to be very condescending. I don't need that in my life, so haven't yet been back.

So to echo what others have said, treat them like you would any others...beginners as beginners and more experienced gamers as what they are, but make sure you don't assume they are beginners.

I do think that a lot a women gamers would feel more comfortable with other females at the table, if possible.


Wrong John Silver wrote:
Recruitment is minor. Orfamay Quest, how do you recruit for games? Assume you're a late-30s married man with a nongamer wife and no kids. How would you recruit?

Well, if recruitment is minor, then presumably you're happy with your group and don't need to adjust it. This isn't a situation where the Gygax Police will show up at your door and tell everyone holding a d20 to drop trou so they can, er, audit the, er, equipment.

If you meet someone who you think would be a useful addition to your group, and who you think might enjoy it, you invite him. Or her. Or it. ("Hey, there's this new analyst in finance who was talking about missing gaming. Yeah, the one with the tentacles -- I think it's from Proxima Centauri. Puts benzene in its coffee and munches on floppy discs, but has a wicked sense of humor.")

If you feel a more burning need to recruit, you recruit women the same way you recruit mn. Men who are already into gaming will be checking the ads at Pegasaurus Games, and men who aren't already into gaming will know someone who is into the hobby and who can introduce them.

Oddly enough, women who are already into gaming will be checking the ads at Pegasaurus Games, and women who aren't already into gaming will know someone who is into the hobby who can introduce them.

See what I did there?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lady Ophelia wrote:


Hey now, I didn't say how a man should groom.

But you said they should. And that has more than a few problematic assumptions.

One of the hallmarks, if not the highlights, of geek culture is not caring about things that are unimportant.

Few things are more superfluous than physical appearances.

But pleasantness is not unimportant, especially in a social hobby.

If you're literally unpleasant to be around, you're going to keep other people from having fun. This could be because you're an asshat, or it could be because you haven't showered since Pope John Paul II. Either way, people -- men or women -- will probably not want to participate in social activity with you.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

Very good point Sanwah68!

Gender somehow only matters if we want to mate. And even then for some it doesn´t matter, what is fine.
A gaming table, especially a PFS table, is no mating territory, so check your attitude. Gender is no topic there. Women, men, anywhere in between or outside of it, doesn´t matter.
What matters is experience and knowledge of the rules, so give support and respect in regard to this.

I sometimes feel uncomfortable roleplaying freely at some tables too.
It´s a challenge everytime when meeting new people and roleplaying a fantasy character that possibly comes from my heart and shows some secret aspects of me or my dreams. Now if there are some rough individuals at the table competing to be the alpha person ( no matter women or men) that can be intimidating. The alpha person should always be the GM for the game and the GM should also step in if some others overstep themselves.
Especially at PFS tables.

Now women feeling more comfortable with other women (maybe only) is something that matters a lot.
In my opinion, that is already something educated, a step into the wrong direction, segregating yourself as a women, but you probably can´t help it.
The solution to this is simple. If you are a women and think or feel like this, step up and GM some games. Then you are "in the position of power" and can ban people from your table. You can also invite other women, which might be encouraged to try the game.

Only remember, don´t be a jerk also applies to GM´s, even if they are female. Some men being stupid is no excuse for being stupid too or mean to other men.

Unfortunately where i am from, this often happens. Male jerks are replaced by female jerks. Not a good thing, since the essential problem, a jerk being there, afterward still exists.

4/5 *

Lady Ophelia wrote:
talbanus wrote:
I *think* that maybe one of the problems with attracting and keeping females in our hobbies is highlighted by this very thread. That problem being that the GUYS are the ones doing the most talking. We need to shut our yaps and LISTEN to what the female gamers say on this subject -- both here and at the table. It's not to say that in being male, you cannot have a valid opinion on this subject. It's more to say, "hush, let the ladies talk and TELL US how to attract more female people to the cooperative tabletop roleplaying hobby".

So here is Lady Ophelia's: Guide to Getting More Ladies into the Hobby..

1) Bros, it's really simple to get ladies into the hobby: Don't be a jerk. Be awesome.

What does this mean? Well it means a lot of what you guys have been saying in this thread:

-Please keep the hygiene on the up and up. There is a saying us girls get told all the time, and perhaps bros should consider it: "Always step outside of your home, dressed as if you are going to meet the love of your life." No this is not to say, we as gamers are always on the hunt during games, but it does mean take the time to shower and groom. I know many of us are coming from work/other places before games so by default we are already got that in our minds, but if you have been home all day before game.. Take the shower and change clothes before you go out.

-Yes we are ladies. Don't be frightened. We aren't going to break into a thousand pieces if you talk to us. We aren't going to wilter away if you tell a joke. But if you don't like being called an a-hole or other male derogatory name, don't call girls hoes and b-------.

-Yes ladies are/can be GM's. They are awesome. Encourage it and welcome it. If you can't roll with it, go home. No hard feelings.

-If you have a beef with us or something we do, come talk to us privately. Don't go hide in your lairs and whisper things. I have seen many lady players do something not cool, no one say anything and then ask for the...

Thank you Lady Ophelia. This is what I wanted. I'm not trying to BAIT women or treat anybody differently. I'm trying to balance my group to make it better.

I have talked with the few women in my group and I think they're great. They add something great to the game. And all I'm trying to do is add more of the greatness.

4/5

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Every time this topic comes up, I feel the need to break out XKCD's perfect summation of the issue. The problem isn't "women are different". The problem is "some people treat women differently because of girly bits".

Several people have pointed out that all of the advice here applies to new gamers of any gender. So what happens when a new person shows up at the game store? You ask them about their experience in the game, what character types they like to play, their play style, etc. And then you give them as much or as little help as they need, based on that conversation.

If the guys at the table are interrupting the woman and not letting her talk, there's a good chance they do the same thing to any new player or any shy player, too. And there's a really good chance they are pissing off the other players while they do it.

Now, if you're concerned about socialized sexism (e.g., society trains women to be non-confrontational, society discourages women from studying math and science, society punishes women for being assertive or "bossy", etc.), this is actually a good step.

But the solution isn't "Be nice to her because she's a woman"; the solution is "Be conscious of your behavior: are you treating her differently because she's a woman?" And if you're not sure whether you're treating women differently, try substituting a race descriptor everywhere you use a gender descriptor. If it sounds racist when you do that...well, there you go.

So just focus on your behavior and the behavior at your tables. If you see sexist/racist/whatever behavior at the table, put a stop to it--and here's the tricky part--even if there's no one of that gender or race or whatever in the room. If someone makes racial or sexist comments when they're among their own social group, the odds are pretty high that they'll treat women or members of that ethnic group poorly.

You're much more likely to encourage {people of the targeted demographic} to join your group if you make sure your group is not hostile to {people of the targeted demographic}. And removing sexual or racial hostility from your group should make it more pleasant overall.

So all it really takes is a corollary to the "Don't be a jerk" rule:
"Don't tolerate jerks in your group: call them on their behavior and ask them to stop, even if they're not being a jerk to you."

Silver Crusade 4/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lady Ophelia wrote:


Hey now, I didn't say how a man should groom.

But you said they should. And that has more than a few problematic assumptions.

One of the hallmarks, if not the highlights, of geek culture is not caring about things that are unimportant.

Few things are more superfluous than physical appearances.

Many of us don't care how we look*. Pretending to is something I do when I'm working, NOT when I'm trying to have fun.

If you are going to judge someone by anything but the content of their character sheet because they don't meet your standards, then you're engaging in behavior that many of us have, frankly, had more than enough of outside of gaming and don't want to see more of inside of it.

Quote:
So we as nerds must evolve and beat our own stereotypes.

You mean change so people will stop making fun of us?

I'd rather just go with the laugh.

*and boy does it show!

The fact that you are defending negative connotations of our geek culture, shows EXACTLY why we keep our steriotype. You don't care what others think of you, when really a majority of nerds do care. I mean heck, that is why this thread exists right? Because we care about our hobby enough to wonder why we don't have more people (men and women) in it. Perception in human nature is unfortunately a big part of it. If we look like hot messes and treat people like jerks, would *you* want play week in, week out?

People want to be themselves in a safe and clean environment. They will do what it takes to have it, even if it means NOT being a part of something that they perceive to be not right. That is what we are mainly talking about. Providing an environment that allows women to feel that way. Take my advice as you will or not. It's on you. But I keep my area to a standard. And that is why women flourish and are greatly happy in PFS because the bros in my realm know how to treat women, and if they don't, they either shape up or shape out by self-regulation.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Orfamay Quest wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lady Ophelia wrote:


Hey now, I didn't say how a man should groom.

But you said they should. And that has more than a few problematic assumptions.

One of the hallmarks, if not the highlights, of geek culture is not caring about things that are unimportant.

Few things are more superfluous than physical appearances.

But pleasantness is not unimportant, especially in a social hobby.

If you're literally unpleasant to be around, you're going to keep other people from having fun. This could be because you're an asshat, or it could be because you haven't showered since Pope John Paul II. Either way, people -- men or women -- will probably not want to participate in social activity with you.

Have I disagreed with any of this?

So why are you responding as if I have?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Lady Ophelia wrote:
The fact that you are defending negative connotations of our geek culture, shows EXACTLY why we keep our stereotype.

Stereotypes change far more slowly than reality.

Quote:
You don't care what others think of you, when really a majority of nerds do care. I mean heck, that is why this thread exists right?

Unknown. The thread could very easily be the minority position.

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Because we care about our hobby enough to wonder why we don't have more people (men and women) in it. Perception in human nature is unfortunately a big part of it.

Its a math heavy. Rules intensive game. The core rule book alone is heavy enough to swear on in court. The full set of books could come with its own cart.

The game is sword and sorcery fantasy. Doesn't appeal to everyone. Largely a guy thing.

The game is functionally a very regimented system of "lets pretend".

Those are all going to limit the player base. The first two are going to skew it male. Once you've skewed it male the default behavior at the table can be rather male.

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If we look like hot messes and treat people like jerks would *you* want play week in, week out?

These are completely separate issues.

Stop combining them.

If you walk into a place with the attitude that the geeks there need to pretty themselves up for you of COURSE you're going to get short shrift. Its as condescending and rude as it is sexist.

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People want to be themselves in a safe and clean environment. They will do what it takes to have it, even if it means NOT being a part of something that they perceive to be not right. That is what we are mainly talking about. Providing an environment that allows women to feel that way.

And apparently people talking about bashing in troll brains is perfectly fine but bed head is scary.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber

Grooming affects how people see you, even if you don't think it should.

That's just reality.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

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Grumpus wrote:
Tons of women play in the Minneapolis area. I looked through the 54 tables i have played/Gmed and found that at least 28 of them included women.

How many included men?

Grand Lodge

I have been lucky to not have to deal with any prejudice or discrimination, based on gender, race, or sexual orientation, in PFS.

I have not been in it long though.

I have seen it in non-PFS games, but it was rare, and usually handled quite quickly.

Thinking about it, I have yet to play a PFS game without at least one woman, at the table I am playing at.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
sanwah68 wrote:

As a female gamer, I no longer participate in my local PFS game days, partly because of timing, but partly because of some of the suggestions on this thread. Mainly around helping out female gamers. A word of advice:

Do not automatically assume that a woman is a less capable gamer than the men at the table because you haven't seen her before. I was being given what the gentleman probably thought was friendly advice about how to build my character. I noticed that I was the only person he offered this advice to, not to the other five men at the table. I may be being a bit precious, but as a gamer of over 20 years experience, and my groups' resident rules and canon lawyer, I found it to be very condescending. I don't need that in my life, so haven't yet been back.

So to echo what others have said, treat them like you would any others...beginners as beginners and more experienced gamers as what they are, but make sure you don't assume they are beginners.

I do think that a lot a women gamers would feel more comfortable with other females at the table, if possible.

Historically I've generally helped only people who've asked for it, or who made it plainly obvious that they needed help. This has been without any consideration of gender, and usually not much consideration of age.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

sanwah68 wrote:
I do think that a lot a women gamers would feel more comfortable with other females at the table, if possible.

This makes perfect sense. After all, if I wanted to get into a traditionally female dominated hobby I would feel intimidated being the only guy in the room and would feel much better about it if there were more guys there. Of course, this is sort of a catch 22. The less female gamers there are, the more women will feel intimidated and the less women will play, so getting the numbers up to something more balanced can be difficult. This may be another reason I see a higher percentage of female gamers in home games than organized play as it's much easier to get the percentage of female gamers up in a group of 6 than it is in a group of 60.

3/5

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nosig wrote:


But I fear you lost me with #6...

If the player does something objectionable - I'll tell him, I don't punish his PC. If I don't like the way he is playing (because he's being a jerk and "butting in" or talking over another player... I am not going to punish him by doing something in game to his PC, when the problem is the PLAYER.

#6 isn't something that should be done just randomly, but more in line with the example I gave. The game had already started so pulling the jerk aside before the game wasn't an option. Singling people out for private discussions during the game slows things down and may make them act like a bigger jerk depending on their personality. In this case the guy, in character, did something that, despite the rules, would have been more of a hindrance in real life than a benefit - and, out of character, he was dominating the game. The new player had already rolled high enough that the penalty imposed wouldn't hurt their results. It was a subtle way to both tell the new player that they did a good job despite the actions of others and to let the jerk know that he should give the other players a chance to play without other character interference. Also, I was crediting the jerk with the intelligence to realize what I was trying to say (in this case, I had played with him enough previously to think he could figure it out).

The Exchange 5/5

gnrrrg wrote:
nosig wrote:


But I fear you lost me with #6...

If the player does something objectionable - I'll tell him, I don't punish his PC. If I don't like the way he is playing (because he's being a jerk and "butting in" or talking over another player... I am not going to punish him by doing something in game to his PC, when the problem is the PLAYER.

#6 isn't something that should be done just randomly, but more in line with the example I gave. The game had already started so pulling the jerk aside before the game wasn't an option. Singling people out for private discussions during the game slows things down and may make them act like a bigger jerk depending on their personality. In this case the guy, in character, did something that, despite the rules, would have been more of a hindrance in real life than a benefit - and, out of character, he was dominating the game. The new player had already rolled high enough that the penalty imposed wouldn't hurt their results. It was a subtle way to both tell the new player that they did a good job despite the actions of others and to let the jerk know that he should give the other players a chance to play without other character interference. Also, I was crediting the jerk with the intelligence to realize what I was trying to say (in this case, I had played with him enough previously to think he could figure it out).

here's your #6 (sorry it's quoted out of context!)

"6 - Punish the group and blame it on a jerk. True story, I was running a scenario with a new player who was playing a bard - the scenario had a part where, in order to gain help from a local tribe, a performance check would have to be done (the tribe liked story-tellers). Perfect, the spot light can shine on the new player and they will feel included. That part of the scenario came up and, as everyone turns to the bard and tells her she's on, one of the self-elected leaders of the group blurts out, "and I assist," and rolls a die. I gave the bard a -4 to their check and said it was because the other player's interruptions kept distracting the audience. I did wait until the bard rolled and I noted that their roll was a high one, so the penalty wasn't going to hurt them before saying this."

First, realize that I was not there and likely don't know all that was going on, so my reaction is colored by my experiences at different tables, and different times.

The part that bothered me the most in your #6 was the advice in the first line... "Punish the group and blame it on a jerk." - then in your example of the game you said "I gave the bard a -4 to their check and said it was because the other player's interruptions kept distracting the audience." this is teaching the other players to NOT assist - so NOT play while the bard has the Judges time. Basicly that while the "Face" PC has the spotlight, no one else can play. This may carry over to other parts of the game as well - no one gets to play while the Rogue checks for traps, or when the Face is Gathering Information, or when Wizard is examining a magic item... it fosters the idea that the game is split into little sub games that each player plays individually with the judge.

(And worse yet, some players really seem to thrive on causing conflict in the group and will do this (attempt to "assist" at the wrong time) just to cause the problem or to derail the "talking parts" or ... for what ever other reason that griefers do the things they do.)

I think it would be much more effective and use much less game time to just ignore the input. When you get to this part of your story: "...one of the self-elected leaders of the group blurts out, "and I assist," and rolls a die..." just ignore him. He's trying to steal the spotlight from the Bard player. And you sort of let him... now he has everyones attention, because they know that he almost spoiled the encounter... Where if you had ignored his input and just turned to the bard and said something like:
(OOC) "wow! you got a 26? and the DC was only 25! Congrats!"
or
(in Character): "Why aren't you a sweet thing! I bet you say that to all the NPCs you meet? and who are the rest of your Companions?" getting the Bard to introduce each of the other PCs - with the pushy guy last...

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its a math heavy. Rules intensive game. The core rule book alone is heavy enough to swear on in court. The full set of books could come with its own cart.

The game is sword and sorcery fantasy. Doesn't appeal to everyone. Largely a guy thing.

The game is functionally a very regimented system of "lets pretend".

Those are all going to limit the player base. The first two are going to skew it male.

Problem, right here.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jiggy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its a math heavy. Rules intensive game. The core rule book alone is heavy enough to swear on in court. The full set of books could come with its own cart.

The game is sword and sorcery fantasy. Doesn't appeal to everyone. Largely a guy thing.

The game is functionally a very regimented system of "lets pretend".

Those are all going to limit the player base. The first two are going to skew it male.

Problem, right here.

You can argue genetics or a wide cultural bias in that regard, but either way its equally out of our control. If the game seems like an engineering manual the demographics are going to look like an engineering class.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Its a math heavy. Rules intensive game. The core rule book alone is heavy enough to swear on in court. The full set of books could come with its own cart.

The game is sword and sorcery fantasy. Doesn't appeal to everyone. Largely a guy thing.

The game is functionally a very regimented system of "lets pretend".

Those are all going to limit the player base. The first two are going to skew it male.

Problem, right here.

You can argue genetics or a wide cultural bias in that regard, but either way its equally out of our control. If the game seems like an engineering manual the demographics are going to look like an engineering class.

BigNorseBarbie says "Math is hard (for girls)."

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can argue genetics or a wide cultural bias in that regard, but either way its equally out of our control. If the game seems like an engineering manual the demographics are going to look like an engineering class.

So the fact that one problem resembles another problem makes it okay? Just because "women in engineering" is outside the scope of this thread doesn't mean that anything that looks like it is okay.

EDIT:
And seriously, after all my experiences with rules debates both online and in person, I'm gonna have to contest any assertion/implication that men are any more adept at parsing rules than women are.

Me: "Actually, the rule is [rulequote]."
Girl Gamer: "Oh, okay."

vs

Me: "Actually, the rule is [rulequote]."
Guy Gamer: "Well, that's YOUR opinion... blah, blah... obvious intent, blah... loophole blah blah... exploiting ambiguous text... blah blah blah... my job to adjudicate... blah... why we have a GM instead of a computer, blah blah... doing this for 30 years blah blah blah..."
Me: *blink*

5/5 5/55/55/5

Orfamay Quest wrote:


BigNorseBarbie says "Math is hard (for girls)."

More like girls don't find it fun. Or don't like the combat and blow em up elements enough to make up for it.

I'm probably wasting my breath here because a non binary position is foreign to you, but these are merely trends within a population. It says absolutely nothing about any one individual. If your response is that there are girls who like math, then yes there are. But the corollary to that is that there are girl gamers, so there's no problem.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Jiggy wrote:


So the fact that one problem resembles another problem makes it okay?

Why is it a problem exactly? Does everything have to be 50 50 ?

Just because "women in engineering" is outside the scope of this thread doesn't mean that anything that looks like it is okay.[]

Quote:
And seriously, after all my experiences with rules debates both online and in person, I'm gonna have to contest any assertion/implication that men are any more adept at parsing rules than women are.

Its not about skill its about enjoyment. And the sort of adversarial reaction you get below is probably more off putting to women than men.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
More like girls don't find it fun. Or don't like the combat and blow em up elements enough to make up for it.

So then all those True Roleplayer threads that pop up every week complaining about people who focus on the math or the combat/blow-em-up instead of the shared storytelling experience are all just women complaining about men? Wow, news to me. The more you know, eh?

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