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I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.
Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.
I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.
Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)
This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
What about seize the moment? As a DM I either let the aoo happpen when the crit goes off or when you roll to confirm a crit. I would not allow you to keep deferring the sting but gain many aoos.
If you forgo the critical hit via Butterfly's Sting, you won't trigger Seize the Moment. You can't have it both ways.
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I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
Hey Blaphers, I think you missed out what I was responding to :P
The person I quoted said you couldn't chain it, which would make my statement true. :P
But, you do confirm the critical, so chaining it would work, but...
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
Sure, you can count as your own ally, but you don't count as your own "next ally". That terminology suggests that it has to switch persons.
Then what does this mean--->"3rd Attack Hits - Butterfly triggers, auto-confirms. Butterfly Activates and may be deferred "
It looks to me like the crit damage is gained AND he gets a new crit to pass onto the next attack.
No, but I can see why you would think that
The main point is
Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.What he is saying that if you hit on your next attack, it is a critical and it auto confirms, and you can either
A. Take the critical on that next attack
B. Choose not to take the critical and apply it to the next ally's hitYou don't get both at once
I know you don't get both. The way it was written was confusing to me. I thought the other poster was saying you got both.
I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
The feat does NOT give you a choice. It does not say "you or your ally". It says the next ally so either you confirm it with your next hit, OR it means an ally(that is not you) benefits.
The feat does NOT give you a choice. It does not say "you or your ally". It says the next ally so either you confirm it with your next hit, OR it means an ally(that is not you) benefits.I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
You are your own ally.
/"Circles and circles and circles again."
The feat does NOT give you a choice. It does not say "you or your ally". It says the next ally so either you confirm it with your next hit, OR it means an ally(that is not you) benefits.I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
You are your own ally.
/"Circles and circles and circles again."
Here is what I am saying. The feat says "next ally" meaning it is intended for another party member to get teh crit you gave up.
Now under your interpretation that(another party member) is much less likely to happen. If they wanted the next hit to make the crit why not just say you delay the crit until "you or your ally" hits, which ever comes first.<---I know that is not written perfectly but I think you get the intent.
Do YOU really think that you are intended to get the benefit as opposed to another party member?<----That is the important question.
The next ally thing changed my view on this. I'm not in the camp of "pass to yourself" anymore. I still think it wouldn't be that powerful if you could.
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Here is what I am saying. The feat says "next ally" meaning it is intended for another party member to get teh crit you gave up.
Now under your interpretation that(another party member) is much less likely to happen. If they wanted the next hit to make the crit why not just say you delay the crit until "you or your ally" hits, which ever comes first.<---I know that is not written perfectly but I think you get the intent.
Do YOU really think that you are intended to get the benefit as opposed to another party member?<----That is the important question.
I honestly think the point is moot.
a) Ally is essentially referring to "your side" of the combat. Your critical hit could occur during an event that creates an AoO for another character that gets the Sting. It could occur as your last attack. There is a lot of variance as to when and how this will play out.b) If you really want your ally to get the crit, you certainly can. In fact, after you crit the 1st time, there is no way to prevent your ally from getting the critical hit if you want them to. (Exception: You could trigger an AoO for another character and then they'd get your crit, however there is no way to stop this unless they have Butterfly Sting.)
c) The end result is marginally greater control over an event that is inherently fickle. How much real harm is it actually going to do?
I really don't want to give up all of my critical hits for a round just to pass the crit to an ally.
Isn't gambling on more than one crit around the entire point of a crit build? If you do it well you get to keep a crit or two yourself, because there's going to be another one coming.
The feat does NOT give you a choice. It does not say "you or your ally". It says the next ally so either you confirm it with your next hit, OR it means an ally(that is not you) benefits.I agree with Blahpers. You do count as your own ally for this feat because it doesn't say you don't and it makes sense for you to be able to. That is the "rule" is it not? Also I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out or not but you can't chain it. The feat only activates when you CONFIRM a critical hit, the auto crit given by the feat is never technically confirmed, or rather it was confirmed on the first attack to activate the feat in the first place.Then, your next hit HAS to be the one to use Butterfly Sting. Which means that the obvious intent of the feat almost never happens.Incorrect.
1. You hit, and confirm a critical.
2. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
3. You hit again, automatically confirming a critical.
4. Since you've just confirmed a critical, you can forgo it via Butterfly's Sting. The next ally who hits will automatically confirm a critical.
5. Repeat until you run out of attacks. There is still one outstanding Butterfly's Sting that an ally can take advantage of. (Note that no critical hits have actually been executed at this point; all have been foregone.)This is perfectly fine, and it doesn't allow stacking crits either, so it's hard to argue that it's overpowered.
You are your own ally.
/"Circles and circles and circles again."
Here is what I am saying. The feat says "next ally" meaning it is intended for another party member to get teh crit you gave up.
Now under your interpretation that(another party member) is much less likely to happen. If they wanted the next hit to make the crit why not just say you...
Yes, I do believe this. "Next" is temporal. As in, the next time an ally hits, it's a critical hit. There's no reason for me to believe otherwise.
The next ally thing changed my view on this. I'm not in the camp of "pass to yourself" anymore. I still think it wouldn't be that powerful if you could.
I don't see how. Nothing in the words "next ally" implies that the next ally cannot be you.
This is the exact sort of situation the FAQ was written to address, and so far the arguments are less compelling than those that were refuted by the FAQ.
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Reasons why this shouldn't be:
1. In order to pass the critical hit off to an ally, you have to forgo every critical hit you get that round, just to do what the feat was obviously intended to do.
2. Every time you "pass" the critical hit from one of your attacks to the next, you qualify for feats and abilities that require critical hit confirmation (such as AoO from Seize the Moment and tripping strike)
3. You can be your own ally, but you -cannot- be your own "next ally".
Now, two of those are balance issues... but still, it's a very broken interpretation of the rules.
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2. Every time you "pass" the critical hit from one of your attacks to the next, you qualify for feats and abilities that require critical hit confirmation (such as AoO from Seize the Moment and tripping strike)
This one is really the best argument against. There could be a frightening string of triggered actions. I haven't looked into many of them to ascertain the level of concern I should have...but it's a great counterpoint.
2. Every time you "pass" the critical hit from one of your attacks to the next, you qualify for feats and abilities that require critical hit confirmation (such as AoO from Seize the Moment and tripping strike)This one is really the best argument against. There could be a frightening string of triggered actions. I haven't looked into many of them to ascertain the level of concern I should have...but it's a great counterpoint.
Nope. If you forgo the critical hit, you do not reap any benefits of that critical hit. No Seize the Moment.
Here is what I am saying. The feat says "next ally" meaning it is intended for another party member to get teh crit you gave up.
Now under your interpretation that(another party member) is much less likely to happen. If they wanted the next hit to make the crit why not just say you delay the crit until "you or your ally" hits, which ever comes first.<---I know that is not written perfectly but I think you get the intent.
Do YOU really think that you are intended to get the benefit as opposed to another party member?<----That is the important question.
I honestly think the point is moot.
a) Ally is essentially referring to "your side" of the combat. Your critical hit could occur during an event that creates an AoO for another character that gets the Sting. It could occur as your last attack. There is a lot of variance as to when and how this will play out.
b) If you really want your ally to get the crit, you certainly can. In fact, after you crit the 1st time, there is no way to prevent your ally from getting the critical hit if you want them to. (Exception: You could trigger an AoO for another character and then they'd get your crit, however there is no way to stop this unless they have Butterfly Sting.)
c) The end result is marginally greater control over an event that is inherently fickle. How much real harm is it actually going to do?Isn't gambling on more than one crit around the entire point of a crit build? If you do it well you get to keep a crit or two yourself, because there's going to be another one coming.
I really don't want to give up all of my critical hits for a round just to pass the crit to an ally.
So once again do YOU think the intent is to keep the crit or pass it on?
Maybe this thread will get the "always your own ally" FAQ fixed.
The next ally thing changed my view on this. I'm not in the camp of "pass to yourself" anymore. I still think it wouldn't be that powerful if you could.I don't see how. Nothing in the words "next ally" implies that the next ally cannot be you.
This is the exact sort of situation the FAQ was written to address, and so far the arguments are less compelling than those that were refuted by the FAQ.
The FAQ leaves it up to question, by leaving it up to reason. It might be better if certain abilities specifically says when you are not your own ally.
I am sure this will eventually be answer though.
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So once again do YOU think the intent is to keep the crit or pass it on?
I think that it means when anyone on your "side" gets the next hit. I'm comfortable with that interpretation and I don't feel it breaks the game so much as provides a way to influence an otherwise independent mechanic. What the developers intended is not something I can testify about. The developers have stated how the intended "Ally" to be defined.
b. If you really want your ally to get the crit, you certainly can. In fact, after you crit the 1st time, there is no way to prevent your ally from getting the critical hit if you want them to.
Explain this?
According to the feat the next ally's hit crits and confirms so that hit can not be passed on. If it was a crit without a confirmation that would be different, but upon confirmation of a crit the damage and therefore the completion of the crit takes place.
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Ummm, where does it say that blaphers? or is that just an opinion made to try and reinforce your position? Do you have a quote for that?
Since there are finite AoO's, and positional requirements that must be met in conjunction with confirming a critical hit, this doesn't seem outrageous. The critical feats I looked at contained language that indicates you must 'expend' your critical hit on that creature to use them. There are some exceptions like Accursed Critical which instead specify confirm. I have to agree with Frodo that for certain feats confirm is all that is required, so it is theoretically possible to chain a series of effects like Seize the Moment.
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Since there are finite AoO's, and positional requirements that must be met in conjunction with confirming a critical hit, this doesn't seem outrageous. The critical feats I looked at contained language that indicates you must 'expend' your critical hit on that creature to use them. There are some exceptions like Accursed Critical which instead specify confirm. I have to agree with Frodo that for certain feats confirm is all that is required, so it is theoretically possible to chain a series of effects like Seize the Moment.Ummm, where does it say that blaphers? or is that just an opinion made to try and reinforce your position? Do you have a quote for that?
Honestly, Butterfly's sting was the only one I saw that negated the extra critical damage. What ones were you looking at.
b. If you really want your ally to get the crit, you certainly can. In fact, after you crit the 1st time, there is no way to prevent your ally from getting the critical hit if you want them to.
Explain this?
According to the feat the next ally's hit crits and confirms so that hit can not be passed on. If it was a crit without a confirmation that would be different, but upon confirmation of a crit the damage and therefore the completion of the crit takes place.
I believe the argument is that since that next hit is a confirmed critical, Butterfly Sting triggers again (since it triggers off a critical being confirmed), and thus lets you pass that crit onwards instead of keeping it for that hit.
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According to the feat the next ally's hit crits and confirms so that hit can not be passed on. If it was a crit without a confirmation that would be different, but upon confirmation of a crit the damage and therefore the completion of the crit takes place.
Are got it in one. Butterfly Sting triggers when you confirm. If you auto-confirm, then you can "auto-trigger" to defer this crit, as well. Further, if the ally (maybe yourself) that hits scores a 20, well he doesn't have to confirm, because hitting at all turns that into a critical. Hence, no overlap.
Honestly, Butterfly's sting was the only one I saw that negated the extra critical damage. What ones were you looking at.
I wasn't talking about negating critical damage. I was referring to the effect specifying if it worked only upon confirmation, or conduction of a critical hit. The entire chain that follows from Critical Focus. (There are a lot of other feats like Cockatrice Strike or Bashing Finish have their own wording.) Blinding Critical, for instance, appears to be barred because it uses the language "score a critical hit". If you defer the critical, then it just becomes a hit.
Ummm, where does it say that blaphers? or is that just an opinion made to try and reinforce your position? Do you have a quote for that?
The definition of the word "forgo": To refrain, to withhold, to do without. You decide not to take the critical hit--it never happened, in exchange for the next attack being automatically considered a confirmed critical hit. You can't have it both ways; either you crit or you do not crit.
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The definition of the word "forgo": To refrain, to withhold, to do without. You decide not to take the critical hit--it never happened, in exchange for the next attack being automatically considered a confirmed critical hit. You can't have it both ways; either you crit or you do not crit.
Correct, however you must confirm before you can forego. Thus, an effect which only requires confirmation will still be valid.
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The definition of the word "forgo": To refrain, to withhold, to do without. You decide not to take the critical hit--it never happened, in exchange for the next attack being automatically considered a confirmed critical hit. You can't have it both ways; either you crit or you do not crit.Correct, however you must confirm before you can forego. Thus, an effect which only requires confirmation will still be valid.
Exactly as Errant says. These feats I reference don't require critical hits, but rather critical confirmations, which still happen.
The definition of the word "forgo": To refrain, to withhold, to do without. You decide not to take the critical hit--it never happened, in exchange for the next attack being automatically considered a confirmed critical hit. You can't have it both ways; either you crit or you do not crit.Correct, however you must confirm before you can forego. Thus, an effect which only requires confirmation will still be valid.
Still nope. Once you forgo, it was never confirmed, as it never happened.
If anyone's trying to figure out the intent of this feat and whether it should consider the feat user as their own ally, think about the introductory text right before the feat:
Much of a Desnan’s combat prowess revolves around helping her allies work in concert and using mysterious knowledge to uncannily avoid blows.
[emphasis mine]
Looks to me like next ally was intended to mean the next other character fighting for the same side.
b. If you really want your ally to get the crit, you certainly can. In fact, after you crit the 1st time, there is no way to prevent your ally from getting the critical hit if you want them to.
Explain this?
According to the feat the next ally's hit crits and confirms so that hit can not be passed on. If it was a crit without a confirmation that would be different, but upon confirmation of a crit the damage and therefore the completion of the crit takes place.
I believe the argument is that since that next hit is a confirmed critical, Butterfly Sting triggers again (since it triggers off a critical being confirmed), and thus lets you pass that crit onwards instead of keeping it for that hit.
I read it wrong. I thought it was a just a crit threat that set it up. I read that like 10 times and still missed it.
If anyone's trying to figure out the intent of this feat and whether it should consider the feat user as their own ally, think about the introductory text right before the feat:
Much of a Desnan’s combat prowess revolves around helping her allies work in concert and using mysterious knowledge to uncannily avoid blows.[emphasis mine]
Looks to me like next ally was intended to mean the next other character fighting for the same side.
But "they" are going to say you are your own ally. I think this and other abilities that don't intend for you to include yourself can be fixed by clearing up that "ally" FAQ.
As a home GM, I don't really have to worry about it, but in PFS it could be argued that I am changing a rule, even if that is not the case.
You very much would be changing the rule in PFS.
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You very much would be changing the rule in PFS.
Seriously?
So, consider Gang Up. Do you count as your own ally for the Gang Up feat?
Do you need two additional members of "your side" to be threatening an opponent, in saddition to yourself, or do you just need one other ally, since, per the FAQ, you count as your own ally?
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You very much would be changing the rule in PFS.Seriously?
So, consider Gang Up. Do you count as your own ally for the Gang Up feat?
Do you need two additional members of "your side" to be threatening an opponent, in saddition to yourself, or do you just need one other ally, since, per the FAQ, you count as your own ally?
Even better...
When an ally who also has this feat confirms a critical hit against an opponent that you also threaten, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
Seize the Moment gets you an AoO when you crit!
Lol...
You very much would be changing the rule in PFS.Seriously?
So, consider Gang Up. Do you count as your own ally for the Gang Up feat?
Do you need two additional members of "your side" to be threatening an opponent, in saddition to yourself, or do you just need one other ally, since, per the FAQ, you count as your own ally?
Yes. No. Yes.
As for Butterfly's Sting and Seize the Moment combo, it is quite potent indeed though limited in it's use. Could make for a cool Fighter or Ranger build.
It's actually kind of neat cause it makes skirmishers a little more effective while Meatgrinders will be meatgrinders regardless.
It requires 3 feats and level 8 at the very least.
Counting as your own ally applies when the description states "an ally"...it just means that you are included in that group.
Butterfly's Sting is a targeted effect (passing on the crit to another), so is Seize the Moment (AoO on a crit -- it's not that absurd an idea).
Gang Up, by it's description, requires 3 people who are allies.
You very much would be changing the rule in PFS.
That assumes your interpretation is correct, and I don't think it is, but like I said I think this one will eventually get an FAQ.