paizo.com Recent Posts in Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?paizo.com Recent Posts in Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?2014-05-01T13:28:45Z2014-05-01T13:28:45ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?ErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxvv&page=3?Butterflys-Stings-AutoCrit-Stacks-with-Itself#1052014-05-02T05:07:08Z2014-05-02T05:07:08Z<p>After some consideration I realize it's even less abusive than I thought.</p>
<p>The disparity is where we perceive the opportunity portion of the definition "Attack of Opportunity". The chain of events is triggered by the initial Critical Hit. That becomes your parent event.
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Next you activate an 'Opportunity' for your ally with Sieze the Moment. <i>Technically this happens before you defer the critical hit because it occurs upon confirmation and AoO's interrupt the normal flow immediately, which is before you forgo it with Butterfly Sting.</i>
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For arguments sake we'll say it happens "together" and you do defer it.</p>
<p>Your ally takes the AoO, hits and auto-confirms triggering an AoO for you.
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Once you hit and auto-confirm you each have taken an Attack of Opportunity triggered by your crit upon that enemy. That ends the opportunity from the event.</p>
<p>Even if you run with this logic, you can use Butterfly Sting and Sieze the Moment to achieve 1 attack +1 attack per qualifying ally until you run out of AoO's. In fact, with enough characters using this, anytime anyone scored a crit the entire party could auto-confirm and AoO for every hit until the end of combat. </p>
<p>That brings me back to the top of this post.</p>After some consideration I realize it's even less abusive than I thought.
The disparity is where we perceive the opportunity portion of the definition "Attack of Opportunity". The chain of events is triggered by the initial Critical Hit. That becomes your parent event.
Next you activate an 'Opportunity' for your ally with Sieze the Moment. Technically this happens before you defer the critical hit because it occurs upon confirmation and AoO's interrupt the normal flow immediately, which is...ErrantPursuit2014-05-02T05:07:08ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?Katydidhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxvv&page=3?Butterflys-Stings-AutoCrit-Stacks-with-Itself#1042014-05-02T04:43:12Z2014-05-02T04:43:12Z<p>You know what, you're right. For movement, at least, because Paizo makes <a href="http://paizo.com/prd/combat.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a specific case</a> for this RAW -</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Paizo wrote:</div><blockquote>Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.</blockquote><p>I'm led to believe that each single action provokes a single AoO, though. Correct me if I'm wrong - if a ranged attacker stands next to you and full attacks with ranged attacks, aren't you allowed to AoO for each attack they make?
<p>The desired meaning (confirmed by staff) was that moving out of multiple squares provokes one AoO since that movement was only from a single move action. Here's <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k1bz?AoO-Combat-Reflexes-question#12" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a quote from James</a> - </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">James Risner wrote:</div><blockquote><p>The test is there for Move actions. If you take a Move action you would provoke for each square you leave that was a threatened square (but since the line prohibiting you from provoking more than once you don't.) </p>
<p>The archer would provoke for either only the first or for all three depending on the DM's interpretation of Full Attack action. If he interprets the Full Attack action as "the 3 attacks as one action" then he can only provoke once. If he interprets it otherwise (I don't believe he should) then he would provoke for each "ranged attack."
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</blockquote><p>So I'm led to believe that multiple iterations of the same <i>action</i> provoke different AoOs, because they're repeated but distinctly separate actions. If a <i>single action</i> provokes multiple times, it only allows a single AoO. In the context of this thread, performing AoO #1 is separate from performing AoO #2.You know what, you're right. For movement, at least, because Paizo makes a specific case for this RAW -
Paizo wrote:Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
I'm led to believe that each single action provokes a single AoO, though. Correct me if I'm wrong - if a ranged attacker stands next to you and full attacks with ranged attacks, aren't you allowed to AoO for each attack they make?...Katydid2014-05-02T04:43:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?ErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxvv&page=3?Butterflys-Stings-AutoCrit-Stacks-with-Itself#1032014-05-02T04:29:46Z2014-05-02T04:29:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Katydid wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, moving out of a threatened square presents only one opportunity attack. But if there was a mechanic for that opponent to move in and out of the threatened square repeatedly to an amount of times equal to their dexterity modifier, you would be able to AoO them the same amount of times, because each move is a different trigger.</blockquote><p>Actually that is not the case. I'll look into finding the link to the rules clarification.
<p>Edit:
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<a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Here it is...</a>
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<div class="messageboard-quotee">Making Attacks of Opportunity wrote:</div><blockquote>Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.</blockquote><p>Katydid wrote:Yes, moving out of a threatened square presents only one opportunity attack. But if there was a mechanic for that opponent to move in and out of the threatened square repeatedly to an amount of times equal to their dexterity modifier, you would be able to AoO them the same amount of times, because each move is a different trigger.
Actually that is not the case. I'll look into finding the link to the rules clarification. Edit:
Here it is...
Making Attacks of Opportunity...ErrantPursuit2014-05-02T04:29:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?Katydidhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxvv&page=3?Butterflys-Stings-AutoCrit-Stacks-with-Itself#1022014-05-02T04:20:31Z2014-05-02T04:20:31Z<p>Yes, moving out of a threatened square presents only one opportunity attack. But if there was a mechanic for that opponent to move in and out of the threatened square repeatedly to an amount of times equal to their dexterity modifier, you would be able to AoO them the same amount of times (provided you have Combat Reflexes, and your Dex allows it), because each move is a different trigger.</p>
<p>Pardon, I wasn't very clear in the followup post; the assumption originally written was that both would have Combat Reflexes. Each AoO in the chain has a different trigger from a different action - a critical <i>confirm</i> (not critical score) from the other partner's last attack. The AoO limit for each partner would be their Dex modifier.</p>
<p>Note, the chain would end immediately when one of the partners misses, if the GM disallowed the "you are your own ally" cheese for either feat. So, very powerful but not completely broken in this interpretation.</p>
<p>BUT if you were considered your own ally for both feats, you'd be able to AoO on your own until you missed. If you were Full Attacking, you could restart the chain with your next BAB or TWF attacks until your AoOs ran out or all your subsequent attacks missed. In terms of damage or critical effects, these AoOs would be identical to non-critting attacks, but they would qualify for feats or abilities requiring critical confirms.</p>Yes, moving out of a threatened square presents only one opportunity attack. But if there was a mechanic for that opponent to move in and out of the threatened square repeatedly to an amount of times equal to their dexterity modifier, you would be able to AoO them the same amount of times (provided you have Combat Reflexes, and your Dex allows it), because each move is a different trigger.
Pardon, I wasn't very clear in the followup post; the assumption originally written was that both would...Katydid2014-05-02T04:20:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Butterfly's Sting's Auto-Crit Stacks with Itself?ErrantPursuithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qxvv&page=3?Butterflys-Stings-AutoCrit-Stacks-with-Itself#1012014-05-02T03:53:18Z2014-05-02T03:53:18Z<p>Just like moving out of a threatened square can only trigger one attack per move action (not per square unless there were multiple opponents with multiple threat coverage), you only create one 'opportunity' to attack by scoring a critical hit against that target. I agree you can BOTH take that opportunity because you provide to each other.</p>Just like moving out of a threatened square can only trigger one attack per move action (not per square unless there were multiple opponents with multiple threat coverage), you only create one 'opportunity' to attack by scoring a critical hit against that target. I agree you can BOTH take that opportunity because you provide to each other.ErrantPursuit2014-05-02T03:53:18Z