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I expect the answer to be "no, you can't" but please respect my need to earnestly ask the question.
I have GM'd about 4 or 5 games, I guess now. I enjoy it.
But I've consistently run across a couple players in my area who rob the game of fun for me because they don't seem to be there to HAVE fun. They are there to beat every encounter as fast and lopsidedly as possible. One in particular never smiles, laughs, interacts with other players, and has treated me in a way I feel is disrespectful (he has 30 years experience, I've been playing PFS since August but RPing for 30 years as well) so he likes to roll his eyes at me a lot.
I play in my free time to have fun. I have PTSD, and I don't need to try to compete with one player to make it fun for the other 5 and for myself. The only solution I see is to give up trying to run PFS in my area.
What are my options?
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Whoa doggies, both of ya calm down!
I suggest going to the event organizer and speaking about seeing if you can get them to put those players you don't enjoy playing with at other tables. It may not always work but it is a good place to start.
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Fine fine.. less grarg more analysis.
But I've consistently run across a couple players in my area who rob the game of fun for me because they don't seem to be there to HAVE fun. They are there to beat every encounter as fast and lopsidedly as possible.
For some people this IS how they have fun. They like to make some crazy, insane build that goes from zero to a mushroom cloud in .001 rounds and bask in the glow of napalm in the surprise round and then bathe in the fountain of blood of the DM's poor monsters.
Some people either can't or choose not to make such insane builds (or make an insane build and they try to keep it at a dull roar for the evening), but nearly everyone optimizes their character to SOME degree. Neither way of playing is inherently wrong, but its like tennis: its really only fun if you find someone within about 1 standard deviation of your level.
You're also new. Its not uncommon for what a veteran considers to be a barely adequate build to look like the incarnation of death to someone that hasn't been making characters since the figures were made of real lead.
One in particular never smiles, laughs, interacts with other players
Gaming is a bit of a pardox. Its a social game, and at the same time the people playing it are often synonymous for their lack of social skills. It could be a lot of things. The person could be anywhere from shy to just bad socially to not interested in the role playing aspects of the game to outright aspergers syndrome (sometimes it would be quicker to group the gamers that WOULDN"T show up on that test...)
and has treated me in a way I feel is disrespectful (he has 30 years experience, I've been playing PFS since August but RPing for 30 years as well) so he likes to roll his eyes at me a lot.
What exactly is he doing that you think is disrespectful? Is the eye rolling from rules interpretations, not instantly computing the damage when you roll 46d6 X1.5 looking rules up or something else?
See if some of these arguments look familiar (the gamers, dorkness rising)
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I appreciate the constructive responses.
I obviously came here expecting that the answer would be "You can't do that" which puts me in a position of leaving public PFS events, which is a shame because I've always gotten very positive feedback (even from the power gamer who just rolls dice and announces his damage without any expression) as a GM.
I'm probably not cut out for PFS play with public groups. I am turned off by uber-power gaming, and I'm seeing way too much of it in PFS, and its worst when I GM.
I don't think I want to put the owner of the store where we play or the VC, both of whom are great people, through any trouble on my behalf. The power gamers are very popular people in the community, and the problem appears to be mine predominately anyway.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I don't think I want to put the owner of the store where we play or the VC, both of whom are great people, through any trouble on my behalf. The power gamers are very popular people in the community
Say what?
No more or less popular than you, sir. I can promise you that OP in my store is in no way a popularity contest. Get that out of your head right now.
I've sent you an email. Reply back and let's get this worked out.
There is the one guy at my Gaming group who I hate. He constantly accuses me of cheating, makes fun of my Age and another persons age. And because my Mini is that of a Female warrior Standing on a dragon head he says, in the most vile way possible "Isnt that a bit Presumptuous?" as if I cant have a cool looking mini. It got to the point I left when I didn't want to play with him. Leaving the game center entirely even after I paid.
No one is forcing you to GM, if you dont like it, dont
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As far as I'm aware, you can't actually ban them from your table. You CAN refuse to run if they're there, which under most circumstances will lead to the same result, but isn't the quite the same.
You can't ban them from the whole gameday, but you can absolutely ban a player from your table.
They are functionally the same, unless you are DMing at a public event and the organizer is not backing you up in dealing with the problem player. If you are running your own private table you can ban anyone you want.
Lets use common sense instead of overly strictly applying the rules and not try to punish the other players for being sat with a problem player.
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I obviously came here expecting that the answer would be "You can't do that"
Its... pretty close. I mean you can ban people but none of the specifics you're giving remotely call for it.
which is a shame because I've always gotten very positive feedback (even from the power gamer who just rolls dice and announces his damage without any expression) as a GM.
Have you considered the possibility that he's just not very expressive?
I'm probably not cut out for PFS play with public groups. I am turned off by uber-power gaming, and I'm seeing way too much of it in PFS, and its worst when I GM.
Could you give an example of the uber power gaming? How much damage, What class/ level? What conditions/DC ?
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What are my options?
Talk to him, tell him that if something doesn't change, you can't run tables for him. If he won't change and demands to play at your tables, you can tell him that you will not GM if he is at the table. And if he doesn't back down, you have to follow through with it.
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BNW, no disrespect, but I think you should take a step back. I feel this dude has a legitimate complaint where these people are hurting things.
My PFS experience has been all over the place, and I've had to tolerate ridiculous disrespectful inconsiderate behavior to where I have felt so incredibly free and was absolutely assured everyone was having fun in their own way. I know how it is to meet that one person that seems to lack self awareness that they're being a jerk, or just being inconsiderate of others.
These things might seem obvious, and I hate obvious advice, but here it goes.
It's already been said to just have lines of communication, and that awkward position could lead to happier times for everyone in the immediate future, than way in the future or perhaps even never. Worst case is that they prove to everyone they're not worth having around, and they go away, and your times are improved because the problem is gone.
You can always not play, and that's your right. Banning someone for having their version of fun shouldn't be something to ban for, but being disrespectful to others is, but that's something that can be hard to prove. I don't know specifically what they're doing to you, but I can take guesses.
I suggest you without being snide or sarcastic just openly point out your perception for how you interpret what they said or did, and give them the benefit of the doubt to explain what's up. Just allow them to understand they're communicating something that you do not enjoy, and perhaps things can be addressed to fix or at least make things tolerable for everyone to play.
Having your fun taken away is not cool, but taking away theirs is just as bad. When it's all said and done, talk to the dude in charge, and hopefully they can accommodate things so everyone can have their fun apart, because it's that or it's losing people. I personally tolerate people I don't like for the sake of the bigger picture, but there is definitely a threshold of what I'll tolerate. You can always GM in private, and attend public for being a character, but obviously that runs the risk of being at the same table of those players.
I hope you don't drop out of PFS, and that you can find some solution that works for you. I encourage you to just communicate with others and see what happens. I personally rather have a somewhat awkward conversation than lose players in PFS unless they definitely had to go.
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Heliodorus04,
The answer is maybe, or it depends.
Is this a private (ie. home) game that you are running? Then yes you have control over who is invited. You might not be able to use the local public announcement board/site to advertise your game. Just check with the person hosting the site.
Are you the event organizer for a public game? If you are in charge of the event, and you believe the person is keeping others from playing or driving players away or dangerous in some way, then Mike has said you have the right to ban that person from your events.
If you are just a GM "working" for the event organizer of a public event, then as has been said above, you may refuse to GM a table that the person is sitting at, but you can not tell that player they have to find another table to play at. You might be able to get the event organizer to do this, but your ultimate recourse is to not GM. Of course, if you do this, you will most likely not be invited back to GM there.
As others have said, taking the person aside and talking to them, can sometimes solve the problem. If you don't feel safe doing this, you should not feel pressured to do it though.
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Whether or not someone is spoiling the fun for everyone at a table is, largely I think, a subjective question. Accordingly, I would be hard-pressed to think of any circumstance where you would or could ban someone because of their play style.
I'll go on record and say that I hate playing at ables with power-gamers, min-maxers, and uber optimized options. That's not my play style and it is no fun for me. And for every player I have that is like that, I get others who aren't. It's all a balance.
If this person is violating the rules, which often times (but not always) is more objective, that's another question. If the rule being violated is the "Don't be a jerk" rule, you have a little more work to do in convincing me, beyond what you have told us already, that he should be banned.
I've seen players banned or warned for making racist or sexist comments. I've seen people sent packing for cheating. I have never seen people banned for conflicting play styles.
In all honesty, everyone here has given you what I consider the first, best option, and that is to talk with this person directly and privately. Maybe he's not aware or what he does; maybe you are just to sensitive to his mannerisms. Talking with him directly will help you to discover what that is.
In the end, you may find that your play styles aren't compatible and that you two shouldn't be at the same table.
Banning someone should always remain and option, but I think it should be rare, and used when all else fails (except in cases where no other option would be possible.)
From what you have presented here, I don't think the case has been made that banning in warranted in this situation.
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There is a lot of good advice in this thread, but it seems as though you're very reluctant to have any sort of confrontation with this player. I sympathize, that's tough.
If you don't think you can open a discussion, still talk to him/them, and just say, "Look, I think it's obvious our playstyles just aren't meshing very well, and I'm just not comfortable GM'ing for you any more. I don't want to quit entirely, so would you be willing to avoid signing up for games I'm running?"
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Please do not agree to GM a game and then refuse. That is a waste of both money and time spent by the players who showed up for that game.
Some players do not realise some of the things they say or do are rude. Sometimes the GM misinterpreted what is said. Have you never rolled your eyes when you knew someone failed to interpret something correctly, maybe a rule at work if not at a game table. Without specific examples, we cannot be sure it was the player truly at fault. Many people would rather play with someone who rolls their eyes but goes with it rather than argue rules for several minutes. Have you double checked what he rolled his eyes at? More than just reread because you may nit understand a rule yourself. Have you consulted with others on it?
You may want to consider only running the scenarios from year of the risen rune and up. They are designed to account for tables of six players, this can sometimes look like it offsets the power gaming compared to early mods designed for only four players. Maybe player five and six don't get to go because the mod itself is too easy, as it was made for only four players, not because someone power gamed.
They may not be power gaming at all, you might have a very low standard of adventurer. You yourself might not realize what the standard level of expected performance is. Without examples, we cannot tell if the player is power gaming, which is not actually wrong, or if you just don't understand the math the game expects for PCs to survive and achieve the goal.
Do you not understand that adventures are somewhat written to be easy so players can survive and accomplish the objective? How many people do you think would have stuck around this hobby if they routinely got killed and always had to start brand new ? No xp, no gold, no progress saved at all. At least in a video game, you get save points.
Because of how strongly I feel about it, before I leave, I am repeating this.
Please do not agree to GM a game and then refuse. That is a waste of both money and time spent by the players who showed up for that game.
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How many people do you think would have stuck around this hobby if they routinely got killed and always had to start brand new ?
Well beside your point, but I would just like to point out this answer:
Just about everyone who played 1st and 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons :p. The old glorious TSR days were unforgiving man. Among other things, I particularly remember dying to green slime (they transformed you into a green slime in 1d4 rounds, no save, back then) at level 1 in The Temple of Elemental Evil as a teenager.
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I played 2e for 2 or 3 years, there was no need to have any book beyond the players handbook and dmg. I never once leveled and I don't know how many characters I built. There were an overwhelming number of level ones, and I think a few times we started at level two because no one ever leveled.
Also our GM might have been a bit sadistic, on one character I rolled an 18 100 str and he told me I couldn't have it because I was an elf, he knocked it down to the highest number that was effectively the same as an 18 01.
In retrospect 2nd Edition really sucks now and I wouldn't dream of going back. I actually like my characters to grow.
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You could try to gently prompt him towards role playing. Such as if he says "I use diplomacy on him" (*cringes at the phrase*) you can say. "Okay, what do you say?" Charisma doesn't mean the character is well spoken. It just means he's charasmatic, and could say something inane that comes across as really neat. (like dumb but popular who get everyone to laugh at their dumb jokes)
If he's not a social character, then once and a while ask and what does bob the barbarian do? Throw NPCs at him. Coax him into role play and try to make it rewarding for him.
For combat, you can describe how his attacks work, and what happens. Our GM does that, and I find that fun.
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For combat, you can describe how his attacks work, and what happens. Our GM does that, and I find that fun.
The best tip I have picked up for getting players involved beyond just roll playing is to give them the chance to describe their killing blows whenever they kill something.
I find this especially works on powergamers because they tend to get the most spectacular over-kills which are fun to describe.
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Well, I have to say, I've seen it happen, and I've had it happen to me. I've had power-gamers suck so much fun out of the game for me that I left the group with whom I was gaming.
The bad part was that I really liked the people outside of the game and enjoyed their company, but, when it came down to play-time, it was like they were entirely different people.
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That being said, I can relate to the OP. And I really want to say that while there's a lot of really good support and encouragement from people here on the thread, especially Venture Officers, there's also assumptions being made.
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One of the founding things of PFS is "Don't Be a Jerk". If someone's pushing buttons - intentionally or not - then they're offending you. Clearly, the OP wouldn't be coming here if he didn't have feelings behind this. And there's absolutely no one in the world that has the right or privilege to make someone else not have fun. Personally, I say that I agree with those who have posted that you are entirely allowed to decide to not GM a table where the offensive player is sitting. It would be much better to simply warn whoever's running the gameday about the situation beforehand, so that it won't be a problem and the player can be seated somewhere else. Or if there's only one table, the person can have the matter discussed with them away from the gaming table.
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The place for the discussion is not at the last minute where there's other people around, and it would make a scene. If you don't feel comfortable saying anything about it, then talk to someone and get help. Take it to someone who you feel comfortable with, and speak your mind. And as far as it's been said that you're wrong for refusing to GM, I would go back before the event of refusal ... how about they ask the other player to be more considerate so that you didn't feel you have to refuse to GM? I don't believe for even a moment that you're the only one who's noticed their players transgressions ... it's just that everyone wants to play, and they're putting up with poor behavior and tolerating it so that they can have a game.
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Despite what anyone in this thread has said, you don't need to give stats, or DCs, classes or numbers. If you don't like playing with an aggressive, offensive person, you're entirely entitled to that feeling, and you don't have to substantiate it. Sometimes people just don't get along. Even if it were nothing more than having a funny nose, or eyebrows too bushy, or smelled funny, you don't have to game with anyone that you don't want to.
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... now I hope my funny broken nose doesn't get me kicked of a table.
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One of the founding things of PFS is "Don't Be a Jerk". If someone's pushing buttons - intentionally or not - then they're offending you.
From the above your definition of a jerk seems to be anyone that anyone else finds offensive, regardless of their actual actions. This is more than a little problematic. It becomes a race to be the first to be offended, so that the other person in a jerk and therefore what they have to say is irrelevant.
Clearly, the OP wouldn't be coming here if he didn't have feelings behind this.
But are those feelings justified? I know that unjustified feelings are an oxymoron to some people, but they're not. People don't always reach rational fact based conclusions, that why we call them feelings. If your feelings towards another person aren't justified, you either bury those feelings and roll a big old rock on top of them or you limit your own actions, not someone elses, to deal with them.
And there's absolutely no one in the world that has the right or privilege to make someone else not have fun.
And won't the op booting people from his games do that?
And yes, I do mean people. Nothing they're describing is so abhorrent that its going to stand out as a singular event. Its going to be a bad if not standard table and become a regular event.
Personally, I say that I agree with those who have posted that you are entirely allowed to decide to not GM a table where the offensive player is sitting. It would be much better to simply warn whoever's running the gameday about the situation beforehand, so that it won't be a problem and the player can be seated somewhere else. Or if there's only one table, the person can have the matter discussed with them away from the gaming table.
Which is going to take THEIR fun out of it.
Despite what anyone in this thread has said, you don't need to give stats, or DCs, classes or numbers. If you don't like playing with an aggressive, offensive person, you're entirely entitled to that feeling, and you don't have to substantiate it. Sometimes people just don't get along.
This is why the numbers are important. if a 5th level barbarian is smacking things for 30 points of damage offends someone they're going to be offended at most tables and there's no getting around that. If the barbarian is doing 100 points of damage then working around that becomes a matter of avoiding the individual (or maybe an audit...)
Even if it were nothing more than having a funny nose, or eyebrows too bushy, or smelled funny, you don't have to game with anyone that you don't want to.
If someone is so easily offended that they can't game with what sounds like anywhere between 10% and 50% of the gaming population then the open and inclusive nature of pfs is going to be more than a little problematic.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I do think you have a number of options. First, I suggest an audit. In my experience a ton of characters have misinterpreted rules or improperly applied them. A look at his sheet may set things right.
Second, I echo the suggestion to try a quick conversation with the guy. Let him know that eye rolling bugs you. Although eye rolling is a disrespectful habit, some people do it nearly reflexively and a mention that it bothers you may quickly set things right. As a matter of charity, I find it easier to presume that people who bother me aren't doing so intentionally unless that presumption is clearly rebutted. I wasn't there and I don't know that guy. You were there, so if you think he may be unwittingly annoying, maybe give him a chance to work things out.
Third, work with other GMs. People have different preferences and tolerances for different kinds of annoying behavior. For example, I don't mind GMing kids tables (and some people hate it), but I can think of a few local players I would really like to avoid having at my table. Work with other GMs and move people if you can.
Fourth, a lot of people use PFS to find people who they *enjoy* playing with. In some cases, that tends to concentrate PFS with people that very few people enjoy playing with (and people for whom logistics make home games tough, and busy people, etc). If the costs of dealing with those people aren't worth it, try other avenues of finding a group that works with you.