Elosandi |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use the specialist casters from 3.5 (warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer)
Use the martial adepts from DSP's path of war. (Warlord, Stalker, Warder)
Remove basic 9th level casters plus the summoner.
Magi, bards and inquisitors are now the generalist mages, and have an appropriately slowed rate of progression.
Mages who insist on the fast track to high level spells use a specialist class
Martial classes have options beyond hitting things.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This should probably be in the houserules forum, but...
There are two ways you can approach this: make the casters more "linear" or make the martials more "quadratic".
The former probably requires re-writing the entire magic system.
The latter, however, might be doable. The simplest "patch" would probably be this:
Look at what full-casters can do at levels 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.
For each level, pick either something a full-caster can do (that a martial would want to do) or something a monster can do that gets in the way of a martial doing their thing.
Create a feat that enables doing a similar sort of thing as the caster or that helps overcome the monster's obstacle. Give the feat a prereq of figher level X, where X is the level you were looking at. Make it a limited per-day usage that scales with fighter level, comparable to spell progression.
For each feat you make, add a "Special" line that reads "A monk may select FEATNAME as a bonus feat starting at X level, treating his monk levels as fighter levels for purposes of determining its effects." Pick the most appropriate value for X based on the fighter level prereq.
Finally, create a rogue talent (or expand an existing one) to say "A rogue with this talent treats her rogue levels as levels of fighter for the purposes of qualifying for feats and determining their effects."
Congratulations, your martials are now playing on the same field as your casters.
Aaron Whitley |
Removing Summoners and 9-level casters seems the simplest way.
This removes resurrection magic above Raise Dead from the game (and makes even Raise Dead exceedingly rare) and otherwise promotes a 'low-magic' feel to some degree...but it's doable and solves the issue.
This actually sounds really cool and would create a really neat new dynamic to the game! Now to pitch it to my players.
Ascalaphus |
8 people marked this as a favorite. |
One way is to strengthen feats, specifically feats relevant to martials. I've worked on that; you can find the results HERE.
Basically, at the price of a single feat a warrior now gains that feat, and the Improved and Greater versions when he meets the prerequisites.
Assuming our warrior takes several of these feats, he how has 2-3x as many feats. It's still linear, but a lot closer to quadratic than before.
It also loosens some very restrictive prerequisites such as Combat Expertise, and packages maneuvers together a bit so you can actually play a character that's good at 4 maneuvers for slightly less than the price of 1 maneuver in RAW.
Especially fighters, who get a lot of combat feats, and rogues, who are stymied by prerequisites and feat taxes, this gives a lot more power.
Who knows? They might actually have feats to spare for noncombat stuff now.
Deadmanwalking |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Deadmanwalking wrote:This actually sounds really cool and would create a really neat new dynamic to the game! Now to pitch it to my players.Removing Summoners and 9-level casters seems the simplest way.
This removes resurrection magic above Raise Dead from the game (and makes even Raise Dead exceedingly rare) and otherwise promotes a 'low-magic' feel to some degree...but it's doable and solves the issue.
Yeah, I stole it from a thread on low-magic games, and had the same thought. Maybe some day...
Some renaming might be in order if you do this (calling Warpriests either 'Priests' or 'Clerics' and Magi 'Wizards' or 'Magicians' seem the obvious ones...). A few other effects of this are interesting, like Vivisectionist Alchemists being the only ones with Regenerate and Paladins with Ultimate Mercy being by far the lowest level people who can raise the dead (you can manage it at 8th level with a bit of investment)...but overall it's pretty cool.
If you leave existing creatures with spellcasting like Dragons and certain Celestials unchanged it makes them notably more frightening and alien, too, since they can access magics humans can't even dream of.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Elosandi |
Aaron Whitley wrote:Deadmanwalking wrote:This actually sounds really cool and would create a really neat new dynamic to the game! Now to pitch it to my players.Removing Summoners and 9-level casters seems the simplest way.
This removes resurrection magic above Raise Dead from the game (and makes even Raise Dead exceedingly rare) and otherwise promotes a 'low-magic' feel to some degree...but it's doable and solves the issue.
Yeah, I stole it from a thread on low-magic games, and had the same thought. Maybe some day...
Some renaming might be in order if you do this (calling Warpriests either 'Priests' or 'Clerics' and Magi 'Wizards' or 'Magicians' seem the obvious ones...). A few other effects of this are interesting, like Vivisectionist Alchemists being the only ones with Regenerate and Paladins with Ultimate Mercy being by far the lowest level people who can raise the dead (you can manage it at 8th level with a bit of investment)...but overall it's pretty cool.
If you leave existing creatures with spellcasting like Dragons and certain Celestials unchanged it makes them notably more frightening and alien, too, since they can access magics humans can't even dream of.
Magician bards are actually pretty impressive in it where they're normally overshadowed. With exclusive access to high level arcane magic by cherry-picking the wizard/witch/summoner lists.
Though, Magi getting longevity out of spell recall and pearls of power does help them out hugely as battle mages.
But if you want to teleport the length of the continent, time to seek out that one extremely high leveled bard, who picked a specific archetype, and who chose it as his specific area of specialisation.
Deadmanwalking |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the other hand, that changes the whole face of the game, which is a bigger impact than simply putting martials and casters on the same track. Possibly a desired change, possibly not. Sounds like it's good at what it does, though.
Oh, absolutely. The world impact is huge. On the other hand...the rules impact is almost nonexistent, making it really easy to implement. And people have little room to complain they're underpowered given you're not changing the actual clas they're playing at all.
I'm really pleased with the idea, honestly.
Ascalaphus |
On the other hand, that changes the whole face of the game, which is a bigger impact than simply putting martials and casters on the same track. Possibly a desired change, possibly not. Sounds like it's good at what it does, though.
I think anything that changes the quadratic/linear thing must necessarily be a major game-changer.
Aaron Whitley |
The world impact and change in dynamic is what I find so hugely appealing about it. With that one change you instantly have a unique feeling campaign/world that provides for some really neat opportunities and as Deadmanwalking pointed out, makes a lot of iconic creatures, much more interesting.
Now the players have a reason to consult with angels/demons and dragons. They're the only ones with access to high level divination spells!
sgriobhadair |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the old days (AD&D), magic users required more experience points to level up. (2500 for level 2, compared to 2000 for a fighter. Level 3 needed 5000 and 4000). On the other hand, thieves only needed 1250 for level 2, and headed up to level 3 at the same XP point that the magic user finally made level 2).
I've borrowed/adapted a house-rule that limits casters by giving their casting a risk of causing them to become fatigued etc, because of the strain that casting puts on their bodies. This should cause them to become somewhat wary of spamming level 9 spells.
This is my version:
* Channelling magical energies put strain on the body of the caster:
* Each time a spell is cast, the caster makes a Fortitude save with the target 1 + (3 x spell level) - caster level
* Failing the Fortitude save causes the caster to receive the Fatigued state (or the Exhausted state if already Fatigued)
* A caster with the Exhausted state failing a Fortitude save takes 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level
* Casting a spell from a scroll still requires a Fortitude save, but potions and other magical items do not (although creating them does).
* A target of 1 or lower/negative for the Fortitude save shows no chance of becoming fatigued, and doesn't require a roll.
I haven't play-tested it yet.
Elosandi |
In the old days (AD&D), magic users required more experience points to level up. (2500 for level 2, compared to 2000 for a fighter. Level 3 needed 5000 and 4000). On the other hand, thieves only needed 1250 for level 2, and headed up to level 3 at the same XP point that the magic user finally made level 2).
I've borrowed/adapted a house-rule that limits casters by giving their casting a risk of causing them to become fatigued etc, because of the strain that casting puts on their bodies. This should cause them to become somewhat wary of spamming level 9 spells.
This is my version:
* Channelling magical energies put strain on the body of the caster:
* Each time a spell is cast, the caster makes a Fortitude save with the target 1 + (3 x spell level) - caster level
* Failing the Fortitude save causes the caster to receive the Fatigued state (or the Exhausted state if already Fatigued)
* A caster with the Exhausted state failing a Fortitude save takes 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level
* Casting a spell from a scroll still requires a Fortitude save, but potions and other magical items do not (although creating them does).
* In this case, a natural 1 is NOT an automatic failure. (And a target of 1 or lower shows no chance of becoming fatigued).
I haven't play-tested it yet.
I can see a few fatal flaws with this.
A good spellcaster doesn't need more than a couple of high level spells to break encounters.
1d4 damage per spell level is hardly anything
Fatigue is removable by a second level cleric spell or a paladin mercy, and lame oracles can become immune to it. Arcanists who don't want to rely on others can use a Cord of Stubborn Resolve to instead take a small amount of damage instead of becoming fatigued.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
A quick fix to linear warriors could be to give them spell like abilities at any level they don't get a bonus feat. Scale the spell like abilities up in level as they go up. You'd need to create a list of spell like abilities. So you get fireball tossing warriors and better at higher levels.
That's similar in concept to what I proposed further upthread, except that now everyone's a caster. If (as I proposed) you instead create feats that allow nonmagical abilities with power/utility comparable to spells, you get to preserve the martials' identity while still letting them play the same game as the casters.
Face_P0lluti0n |
Give all linear classes Mythic Ranks, but not the quadratics.
I've considered something like this. Especially since the Mythic spellcaster paths seem to make spellcasters even more quadratic.
In my 3.x/PF hyrbid game, running the rules as they are written, but allowing Tome of Battle/Path of War solved the problem until about level 12-14. The characters with Use Magic Device are still holding up at level 15, thanks to magic mart, but I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that once you get to those levels, even ToB/PoW characters need to become Gish/Warrior-Mage characters or have maxed out UMD checks so that they gain partial spellcasting ability in addition to having better melee and/or skill use than the full-casters.
Use the specialist casters from 3.5 (warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer)
Use the martial adepts from DSP's path of war. (Warlord, Stalker, Warder)
Remove basic 9th level casters plus the summoner.Magi, bards and inquisitors are now the generalist mages, and have an appropriately slowed rate of progression.
Mages who insist on the fast track to high level spells use a specialist class
Martial classes have options beyond hitting things.
I'm tempted to try this in the next PF/3.x campaign I run that goes beyond the levels at which quadratic squishiness, limited spells per day, and skill rank deficiency are still balancing factors.
Especially since many of the specialized or 2/3 caster classes have ways of cherry-picking individual spells from any available sourcebook, but they can't just gain access to everything. That way nobody complains that I'm forcing them to throw away the Spell Compendium. It makes the idea of "spell research" cooler, too, because that one Bard, Magus, or Beguiler that figured out how to cast a single really broken Spell Compendium spell feels special without being absurdly unbalanced - they just have one really awesome trick that they're known for.
Another thing I've considered is introducing something like sanity or corruption rules, which only apply to spellcasters. Of course, this would only work in a horror game or a setting where magic is dangerous and kind of Lovecraftian, but it would motivate all characters, even the casters, to find ways of solving problems without magic, because spamming magic as a win-button for everything would end your adventuring career in short order.
My players would gut me if I tried something like that in my current game, though. Fortunately, it's set in Eberron, so magic-mart and easy access to magical training are givens. I just decided that once characters in my Eberron get into the double-digit levels, it dawns on them that they need magic somehow, so all high level NPCs, even the ones that started as martials, end up either getting maxed out UMD checks or multiclassing into prestige classes that give or advance spellcasting ability, so that they at least have level 4 or 5 spells by the time the full casters are tossing around level 7 and 8 spells. The Deneith mercenary captain may have started out as a Warblade or Fighter, but at the end of his career, he's now a Fighter X/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5, and the peasant hero that started out as a Ranger is now a Ranger X/Divine Crusader X of Dol Arrah, Monks eventually pick up Divine Fist or Enlightened Fist or Psychic Warrior/Warmind, etc
Claxon |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Things I did to reduce the power discrepancy:
1) You may not use age rules to increase your stats
2) You may not use templates, Psionics, 1001 Spells, 3.5 material, or non-Paizo material.
3) Restrict caster classes from starting with 20 or higher in their casting stat. *It may not seem like much but forcing their DCs to be one lower from the very beginning can have a decent impact.
4) Do not allow traits that reduce metamagic cost
5) Metamagic Rods are limited to normal variants only and Pearls of Power are limited to 6th level spells maximum. Primers of Metamagic exist that allow you to prepare spells with metamagic without possessing the relevant feat or cast spells spontaneously with the metamagic for 24 hours, but do require the use of the spell level slot as if modified by the normal metamagic feat. The price is ⅓ that of the equivalent rod of metamagic. Use is tiered like normal metamagic rods, so to cast a 4th level spell with metamagic would require either a normal or Greater Primer of Metamagic.
6)Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats are now just one feat.When you meet the prerequisites for the better versions you obtain them for free. If you do not wish to utilize TWF then this can be applied to Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike. You take Vital Strike feat and receive the others for free when you meet the conditions. Alternatively,if you do not want those options you can take Power Attack as a feat and receive two feats that have power attack as prerequisite one at level 6 and one at level 11. You must meet the conditions for the feats normally, but you receive them for free. You can only use one of these options, you could not for instance take Two Weapon Fighting and Vital strike and get all four other feats for free, you only get one set for free. You must still meet the requirements to use it. * Giving martial characters more feats can help increase their power level.
7) Dazing Spell Metamagic, Persistent Spell, Rime Spell, and Spell Perfection feats are banned from the game.
*Probably the biggest thing to curbing their power
8) Divination magic and teleportation magic are blocked by 5 ft of earth, 1 ft of stone, 1 inch of metal, or a thin layer of lead.
9) The following spells have been changed:
a. Simulacrum - Cannot cast spells, any other special abilities are reduced at the same rate hit dice are.
b. Create Undead and Animate Dead - Undead last for 24 hours, not until destroyed
c. Contingency -last only 24 hours
d. Explosive Runes - Has a 50 gp material component associated cost
e. Blood Money - Caps at generating 1000 gp value of material components
10) Make sure to apply this FAQ
Edit: Damn copy and past from google docs isn't working right. I will try to correct the ones that got copied multiple times.
sgriobhadair |
sgriobhadair wrote:I've borrowed/adapted a house-rule that limits casters by giving their casting a risk of causing them to become fatigued etc, because of the strain that casting puts on their bodies. This should cause them to become somewhat wary of spamming level 9 spells.
This is my version:
* Channelling magical energies put strain on the body of the caster:
* Each time a spell is cast, the caster makes a Fortitude save with the target 1 + (3 x spell level) - caster level
* Failing the Fortitude save causes the caster to receive the Fatigued state (or the Exhausted state if already Fatigued)
* A caster with the Exhausted state failing a Fortitude save takes 1d4 nonlethal damage per spell level
* Casting a spell from a scroll still requires a Fortitude save, but potions and other magical items do not (although creating them does).
* A target of 1 or lower/negative for the Fortitude save gives no chance of becoming fatigued, and doesn't require a roll.
I haven't play-tested it yet.I can see a few fatal flaws with this.
A good spellcaster doesn't need more than a couple of high level spells to break encounters.
1d4 damage per spell level is hardly anything
Fatigue is removable by a second level cleric spell or a paladin mercy, and lame oracles can become immune to it. Arcanists who don't want to rely on others can use a Cord of Stubborn Resolve to instead take a small amount of damage instead of becoming fatigued.
Hmm, fair points. Obviously the damage is easily fixable; the others not quite so easily.
It doesn't bother me that they can finish an encounter with a couple of good spells, if each of those spells carries an element of risk to them.
We, could, of course, rule that magical fatigue/exhaustion is somehow immune to the effects of Mercy or Lesser Restoration (and casting Lesser Restoration might carry it's own risk of magical fatigue). I'm not sure about this path though; it feels a little too contrived. I do think that magical fatigue is different enough that lame Oracles shouldn't be exempt though.
I'm really unsure of the exact balance for calculating the Fortitude DC number; the level I've set above (1 + 3 x spell-level - caster-level) would give a level 1 character casting a level 1 spell a 10% chance of becoming fatigued (DC 1 + 3x1 - 1 = 3), and a level 17 character casting a level 9 spell a 25% chance (DC 1 + 3x9 -17 = 11, but +5 on fort save for wizard 17, so only need to roll a 6). These are so low they'd disappear completely with high Con, only failing on a natural 1. They're also slightly time consuming to keep calculated. Maybe a simple DC of constant + spell-level. (1+Spell Level? 5+Spell Level? depending on how seriously magic wants to be limited, and how available cleric, paladin or other ways of removing fatigue are. 5 + Spell Level Fortitude DC when casting, and no restrictions on removal of fatigue, might not be bad).
Valandil Ancalime |
Removing Summoners and 9-level casters seems the simplest way.
This removes resurrection magic above Raise Dead from the game (and makes even Raise Dead exceedingly rare) and otherwise promotes a 'low-magic' feel to some degree...but it's doable and solves the issue.
9-level casters I can understand, and it seems an interesting and simple solution. But why summoners?
Athaleon |
Deadmanwalking wrote:9-level casters I can understand, and it seems an interesting and simple solution. But why summoners?Removing Summoners and 9-level casters seems the simplest way.
This removes resurrection magic above Raise Dead from the game (and makes even Raise Dead exceedingly rare) and otherwise promotes a 'low-magic' feel to some degree...but it's doable and solves the issue.
They get early access to a lot of really good spells, very early in some cases. It's almost enough to call them a pseudo-full caster.
Then between the Summoner, the Eidolon, and the Familiar (via Eldritch Heritage) he can potentially break the action economy over his knee.
Deadmanwalking |
Thanks, I never really looked at their 6th level spells, but the do have a crazy wide variety (5th to 9th).
In fairness, most 6 level casters do this to some limited extent (I think there are three 8th and one 9th level spell on the 6th level Bard list, for example)...but Summoner is egregious.
There are only 5 spells on their 6th level list that aren't at least 8th level for full casters. The same is true of their lower level spells, too. It's a difference of 1 in 7 spells (14%) and over two thirds of them (70%), and it makes them effectively full casters in a way that is debatably broken and certainly out of theme if disallowing full casters.
Da'ath |
One of the best things you can do in order to reign in casters, in addition to some of the suggestions here, is know your Editions and what's changed for casters with each new edition of the game. I am not saying older editions are better - not by a long shot - I'm saying each edition gradually removed more and more restraints from casters. One outstanding example, at least to me, was the change in Concentration checks from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
In 3.5, Concentration was a skill, based off Endurance. This caused problems because a caster could make such checks trivial by the myriad of skill bonuses from feats.
Pathfinder "solved" this problem by making it a check - no more skill focus and other feats to boost it. Seems great, no? Only at first glance. Because spellcasters have it so "rough," Paizo also added one more change which further reinforced a spellcaster's single attribute dependency (SAD) - they now use their primary spellcasting stat on said checks.
The ability to look back and see the checks and balances previously used and compare them to the current state of affairs is invauable. I'll list a few of the changes I've made and while many people may not agree with them, they're working quite well for my group - your mileage may vary.
Removed Favored Class mechanics and all associated options. It is a legacy mechanic and only serves to escalate power creep (as usual) and allow certain outs to restrictions placed on classes (example: a limiting factor of sorcerers is spells known - human sorcerers can mitigate this slightly by gaining extra spells known through their favored class option).
Dual Attribute Dependency All casters use two attributes - their normal Primary Casting Attribute (PCA) and Constitution. Their PCA determines the maximum level of spell known and modifies the DCs of their spells; bonus spells are gained through Constitution, which represents the additional amount of arcane and divine energies one can hold/channel.
Concentration checks Concentration checks use Constitution and not the caster's PCA.
Scrying (and similar spells/effects The scying spell (and similar spells or effects) permits the caster to view the target, as expected, but only against a completely indistinct background. This intentionally corrects some of the problems with the scry & die! issues I have.
Fatigue & ExhaustionYou have to love conditions that don't affect all characters equally. Now that the sarcasm is done, after reading some of Laurefindel's house rules, I adopted this one. Fatigue: -2 on all rolls, spellcasting DCs reduced by 2; Exhausted: -4 on all rolls, spellcasting DCs reduced by 4.
These are just a few of the House Rules I use - anytime you House Rule something, I recommend introducing it slowly to see how it plays out and don't get too attached to it. It may not work for you or your group.
ShadowcatX |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use the specialist casters from 3.5 (warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer)
Use the martial adepts from DSP's path of war. (Warlord, Stalker, Warder)
Remove basic 9th level casters plus the summoner.Magi, bards and inquisitors are now the generalist mages, and have an appropriately slowed rate of progression.
Mages who insist on the fast track to high level spells use a specialist class
Martial classes have options beyond hitting things.
Personally, I really like this option. I wish there were a couple more specialist type casters available, but c'est la vie.
Another option is to play E8 (or E6).
Face_P0lluti0n |
Elosandi wrote:Use the specialist casters from 3.5 (warmage, beguiler, dread necromancer)
Use the martial adepts from DSP's path of war. (Warlord, Stalker, Warder)
Remove basic 9th level casters plus the summoner.Magi, bards and inquisitors are now the generalist mages, and have an appropriately slowed rate of progression.
Mages who insist on the fast track to high level spells use a specialist class
Martial classes have options beyond hitting things.
Personally, I really like this option. I wish there were a couple more specialist type casters available, but c'est la vie.
Another option is to play E8 (or E6).
IMO, if using Tome of Battle and/or Path of War, E10 might even be possible, as the powerful spells still have some manner of limitation (range limits and "miss" chances on Teleport, Raise Dead requires a whole body, etc).
Some settings, like Eberron, assume a lower overall power level and would play nice with E6/E8/E10 rules. I did something similar in the earlier stages of my Eberron campaign, in which characters above level 10 existed, but they were limited to the most powerful NPCs in the setting, most of whom were the stuff of legends or had multiple lifetimes to accumulate experience and training. Vol was still 16th level in that game, but the implication was that it took thousands of years for her to gain all of those levels above 10 and for most PCs and NPCs, the zero-to-hero train ended around 10th level - after that it took a minimum of multiple decades of intense study and training to gain each level, and centuries to gain levels in the mid-teens.
It seems like the Mythic rules would play nice with an E6/8/10 approach - characters could advance to a level between 5 and 10 depending on the GM and players' tastes, and then instead of gaining levels, just begin gaining mythic tiers instead. This would let the players gain access to more power appropriate for battling the classic "endgame monsters" without actually accessing the game-breaker spells.
Which is likely how I will run my next game - characters will advance to 8 or 10 and then gain 10 mythic tiers, which will provide 18-20 "levels" of advancement inside of the level band that is generally held up as the most fun level of play.
Now that I think of it, it would even be possible to start a campaign at 6th or 8th level and have the character advancement be entirely measured by mythic tiers.
This would also explain the zero-to-hero climb, since mythic power comes from some sort of magical or divine source, so suddenly transforming from a skilled-but-mundane militia veteran into a dreadnought capable of slaying armies in the course of a few months would have a more solid in-game reasoning.
David knott 242 |
Grim Tales (based on d20 Modern) had another approach to limiting magic that only let you gain casters levels at odd levels starting at 3rd level. It also had a system of strain damage from casting spells as well as notes about how this change affected the rarity of magic items and the danger presented by magical monsters.
This approach could be approximated in Pathfinder by requiring the first level or two a character takes to be in a non-spellcasting class and forbidding characters to take a class level that would increase their caster level beyond half their character level.
PD |
Something I'm toying with is simply reducing the number of spells casters can memorise, especially at higher levels: something along the lines of full casters get (character level / 2) spell levels each time they level up. In addition, casters must expend a Feat to gain 5th, 7th & 9th level spells, meaning that they have a choice between more flexibility (crafting, metamagic, general feats) and raw power.
PD |
Personally I'd prefer removing classes instead of nerfing classes. Playing a nerfed class is often not all that much fun.
I can understand that view point, but it's a massive generalisation. If Wizards vastly over-power linear classes at high levels, something like reducing access to high level spells still allows those characters to do everything they could before - just not as often. I don't really see how that becomes less fun? I'd argue it becomes more fun, certainly for the group as a whole, but also for the individual who has to manage spell casting resources a little more strategically. (NB: to do this properly, might have to look at other things like metamagic rods and scrolls as well).
In any adjustment, you've got two directions you can go. You can boost weak classes, or you can scale back strong classes. Each is equally valid. PF in general has taken the former approach, but hasn't really solved the problems inherent in D&D3.5. This is why I'm starting to think the second option is probably worth a try.
I think a wizard that can cast 2x7th level spells instead of 5x7th level spells is still pretty powerful and pretty fun. If a player's definition of fun is playing a class that dominates the game and makes the players around him feel like they're unable to contribute effectively, I think that's a bit of a shame really.
Deadmanwalking |
Personally I'd prefer removing classes instead of nerfing classes. Playing a nerfed class is often not all that much fun.
This. Few people will complain if you say 'No Wizards' or at least not loudly. Almost all who want to play a Wizard will complain if you nerf them significantly (which is what many seem to advocate).
Ditto for other, similar, classes.
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy |
I use the PDF "Houserule handbooks: spellpoints," and then just delete whatever spells will break my game as intended. I've deleted almost all high level spells, but ones I want to allow are easily available. This also allows a lot of low level spells to be cast, so the raw power is replaced by longevity. This also helps fight the 5 minute work day.
Ruggs |
Something you might try, which still keeps wizards and other 9-level casters in the game is to convert all spells 6th level and above to rituals. This basically allows them to be cast, but creates a longer casting time, which allows them to be interrupted more easily. I haven't worked out the details, but time to cast would increase with the level of the spell (or also the slot required to cast it, whichever is more a disadvantage to the caster).
All 2-skill point classes become 4, save for int-based casters.
Allow full BAB classes 2 attacks if taking a regular move action.
Do not allow traits/feats that reduce metamagic costs.
Do not allow rods more powerful than lesser.
There are other adaptions, but the ritualist approach can definitely add flavor to a game, and still allow access to higher level spells, but in a more controlled and flavorful manner.
Adam B. 135 |
I was thinking about a system where all full spellcasters are forced into using something like the Thessalonian Specialist wizard archetype.
-It would grant its normal benefits to wizards.
-grant one spell slot to Sorcerers but boost their bloodline progression by 2 levels(and bloodlines can grant spells in their prohibited schools)
-Clerics would get 1 additional spell slot instead of 2, but could spontaneously cast any spell from their school in that slot. Domains can grant spells that are banned.
-Oracles gain an additional mystery at 5th and 11th level, and gain 1 additional spell slot instead of 2.
-Witches are affected as Wizards, but their patron can grant them spells that are banned to them.
-Druids are affected as Clerics.
All classes would still have access to these spells, regardless of schools that are banned.
-all dispel magics
-all status effect removals
-all curse removal
These spells are banned.
-Wish (lesser wish can stay)
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Take a look at d20 Modern.
They restricted the spell lists down to 5th level spells, gaining more low level slots and caster levels with the Archmage class, but never any higher spells.
Great balance overall. ANd yes, an efreeti that could grant Wishes was indeed one of the mightiest creatures in the game.
==Aelryinth
Kthulhu |
1. There are no concentration checks. Take damage, even a single point, and your spell is disrupted.
2. Spell preparation takes 10 minutes per spell level per spell. IE, preparing a single 9th level spell takes 90 minutes. Preparing cantrips takes 5 minutes each.
3. Eliminated all ways for wizards to cast spontaneously, with the exception of scrolls.
4. Casting from a scroll DOES burn one of your spell slots. In fact, it burns one slot higher than if you had prepared that spell normally.
5. Enforce the existing limitations of the class. If you are a wizard, and you don't bother to give the GM a list of your prepared spells, then you didn't actually prepare any for that day. If you live until tomorrow, you can try again. You must have the correct material components and be able to access them to cast a spell.
6. Speaking of material components, have casters actually have to collect them. No more buying an small bag of holding that holds an infinite supply of an infinite variety of components for a pittance at first level.
Adam B. 135 |
1. There are no concentration checks. Take damage, even a single point, and your spell is disrupted.
2. Spell preparation takes 10 minutes per spell level per spell. IE, preparing a single 9th level spell takes 90 minutes. Preparing cantrips takes 5 minutes each.
3. Eliminated all ways for wizards to cast spontaneously, with the exception of scrolls.
4. Casting from a scroll DOES burn one of your spell slots. In fact, it burns one slot higher than if you had prepared that spell normally.
5. Enforce the existing limitations of the class. If you are a wizard, and you don't bother to give the GM a list of your prepared spells, then you didn't actually prepare any for that day. If you live until tomorrow, you can try again. You must have the correct material components and be able to access them to cast a spell.
6. Speaking of material components, have casters actually have to collect them. No more buying an small bag of holding that holds an infinite supply of an infinite variety of components for a pittance at first level.
No offense, but I don't think your ideas solve the problem so much as make a new one. The way you want it, the spellcaster player basically gets a lot less fun.
Also the scroll thing hurts the party more. In my experience the scrolls are mostly for use on party members, either to heal status effects or to give buffs.
Kazaan |
Maybe not a complete fix, but a quick patch would simply be to take the linearly scaling abilities for Martial classes (ie. Fighter weapon training, Ranger Favored Enemy bonus, etc) and quadratically scale them. For example, the Fighter, instead of getting +1 at lvls 5, 9, 13, and 17, he'd get +1 at lvl 5, +2 at lvl 9, +3 at lvl 13, and +4 at lvl 17, for a total of +10.
Lord Mhoram |
One that would change combat dynamic:
Using all iterative attacks is a standard action, not a full action.
A standard action spells in the normal rules take a full round to cast.
This give mobility to warrior types and allows them full damage, and limits casters in some of what they can do. And it lets the higher level fighter types get in that extra damage all the time.
And this one I do in all my games anyway - Quickened spell doesn't exist.
Personally I think nerfing classes is bad - so my solutions tend to bring up the martials, but not cause too much headaches for the spellcasters. But then I've never run into the LFQW issue in real life play - just read about it on the internet. It obviously exists, just not in the way I play.
Greylurker |
Scaling Combat Feats from Kobold Press work fairly nicely.
Remove the Quadratic part from the Wizard.
Basically you lock Spells at the Caster level they gain the spell slot. Fireball for a Wizard is 5d6 unless you use Heighten Spell to put it in a 4th level slot when it becomes 7d6, put it in a 5th level slot and it's 9d6, etc..
Also has a slight side effect of making the Spells cast by a Sorcerer slightly more powerful than the wizard due to the delayed slot acquisition.
The biggest one though is actually Read all the Spells and stuff on Magic. There is a lot of stuff you find just reading things that nerfs spells right there. Like if a Summoned creature dies you can't get it back for 24 hours or that Fireball can detonate prematurely if something gets in the way of it's line of fire.
Valandil Ancalime |
Remove the Quadratic part from the Wizard.
Basically you lock Spells at the Caster level they gain the spell slot. Fireball for a Wizard is 5d6 unless you use Heighten Spell to put it in a 4th level slot when it becomes 7d6, put it in a 5th level slot and it's 9d6, etc..
Also has a slight side effect of making the Spells cast by a Sorcerer slightly more powerful than the wizard due to the delayed slot acquisition.
A very similar idea was discussed here;
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qp25?Throttling-caster-balance-a-simple-soluti on#4