Blackstorm,
Yes, the rules state, if you are invisible, your target is denied their dexterity. They do not say that for firing from concealment. Maybe they should, but they don't.
Ok, so a rogues using stealth cannot make sneak attack, as the rules on SA and stealth checks doesn't say anything about losing dex when you're stealthed.
So, you're basically saying that a stealthed character cannot make sneak attack. Do you confirm that? I suppose you confirm, as you said, above:
It is not the case, and should not be the case. Situational awareness is so much more than just vision. The kid playing Picky-boo behind a blanket does not make you denied to your dexterity.
Not knowing the enemy is there is what does that.
Stealth does it.
Concealment, even total concealment, gives you the chance to stealth. It does not give you free stealth.
You are usually denied your dexterity when you are physically unable to move (pinned, etc.) or do not know the attacker is there (stealth, etc.).
Emphasys mine. So, based on what you wrote, and reading the stealth rules:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal -16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
And the rules of Sniping:
If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
I assume that your position is that stealth doesn't grant the chance to land a sneak attack. That's why the rules of sneak attack doesn't say a thing about stealth checks:
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
So you're saying that rules don't allow SA if you have only total concealment, that you need to gain the chance via other means, explicitly writing of stealth that, by your exact words, don't give you any chance to land a SA because nowhere in the stealth rules there's a word on denying Dex.
Now, check the facts: if stealth give you the chance to make a SA, then anything that give you total concealment give you the exact same chance, because that's the only thing that stealth do in this case (Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment).
All,
Stealth would make the attack undetectable and sneak attack would apply.
Nope, check the rules. Stealth provide only total concealment.
Not seeing someone is COMPLETELY different that not having the ability to see someone. If I don't see someone, but have the ability to, I can tell where they are not. If I don't have the ability to see them at all, I can not tell where they are, or where they are not.
you don't have the ability to see someone that is in an area you cannot see through.
Bonus question: An oracle with clouded vision, can be dealt SA if above 30 feet, provided right feats/equip for the rogue? If not, why?
An invisible creature and a creature in the darkness are both firing an arrow at the human. The human knows they are both there. According to you Komoda, the human will not lose his dex bonus against the creature in the darkness because he knows it is there. How do you react to an attack that you cannot see?
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Concealment just means you dont have line of sight to your target, it doesnt mean you are invisible.
You know if someone is just behind a wall if you saw him hiding there, he has concealment if he used stealth (and cover in this case because of the wall itself), but he isnt invisible. You just cant see him because there is something blocking the path.
But lets say that wall has a small hole on it, would he get +2 and apply sneak attacks because of that concealment? Even though we KNOW exactly where he is?
What if he "snipes" out with his crossbow to attack, we can clearly see him attacking from the corner, so why should we get denied our dex bonus and take a penalty to dodge (in the form of a +2 to his attacks).
IMO, the rules need better clarification, specially on the "invisible" state, what actually is considered invisible or not. As others said above, a simple phrase would have fixed this.
"Characters with total concealment are invisible to his targets, as long as they maintain the concealment".
If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Thats the thing, you can react if you are expecting it.
Normally, in every table i played, the GM house ruled that if the rogue has any kind of concealment (blur, fog, darkness), he can apply sneak attacks because the defender cant see clearly where the attacks are coming from and the rogue can take the distractions to his advantage, just as if he was feinting to cause distractions.
Which is fair to me and should be FAQ'd.
Concealment just means you dont have line of sight to your target, it doesnt mean you are invisible.
You know if someone is just behind a wall if you saw him hiding there, he has concealment if he used stealth (and cover in this case because of the wall itself), but he isnt invisible. You just cant see him because there is something blocking the path.But lets say that wall has a small hole on it, would he get +2 and apply sneak attacks because of that concealment? Even though we KNOW exactly where he is?
What if he "snipes" out with his crossbow to attack, we can clearly see him attacking from the corner, so why should we get denied our dex bonus and take a penalty to dodge (in the form of a +2 to his attacks).
You are describing Cover, not Concealment. Those are different rules.
Suppose you stand in a dark room with a lit candle. The candle doesn't allow you to see the walls. I tell you to point to a specific painting hanging somewhere on one of the walls. You can't see the painting. For all intents and purposes it is invisible to you. So you are left only with guessing.
Similar scenario. You are in a lit room where I have hung an invisible painting on the wall. I tell you to point to it. Again you can only guess.
You are not blind in either case. The picture is invisible to you in both cases because you cannot see it. If that picture were animated and able to attack you by some ranged means, not even your Blindsense would protect you. Your dex bonus is denied in both cases because you cannot use your dex to defend yourself against attacks that you cannot see.
You know if someone is just behind a wall if you saw him hiding there, he has concealment if he used stealth
Careful with the verbiage here, he can use stealth because he has concealment, not he has concealment if he used stealth.
It's an important distinction, because you can use stealth from any concealment, not just total concealment.
Concealment just means you dont have line of sight to your target, it doesnt mean you are invisible.
Total Concealment (not just concealment) means you have no line of sight. which means quite clearly, that you are not visible.
The spell "Invisibility" is not the only means by which someone can be "invisible" to another person.
The state, "invisible" is simply a condition where you are not "visually detectable". Total Concealment is the poster-child for this exact phenomenon.
I don't think seeing arrows pop out of nowhere matters as far as the rules. I hadn't realised this was such an illdefined secrion of the rules.
Although the PC's are not blind, the attackers are basically invisible because they cannot be seen. So follow the rules for invisible attackers.
That's how I've always ruled total darkness and ranged attacks. If the drow were within 30' I would have given him Sneak Attack.
If some of you really believe that one could react to an arrow emerging from total darkness (ie., you cannot see it before it reaches the lit area), try this:
Take a friend out to pitch black area, like a field in the woods at night, with an electric lantern or a flashlight. You stand with the lantern and have your friend walk out until you can't see him at all. Tell him to move around, laterally, a little bit, then have him throw a tennis ball (or other soft object) at you. Make sure your friend doesn't throw the ball from quite the same spot each time, and doesn't throw it with quite the same timing between throws. See how often you can catch the ball.
Now, imagine that, instead of a ball traveling 30-50 miles per hour, it's an arrow (with a much smaller head-on area/silhouette) traveling at about 200 mph. How dextrous are you going to be in reacting to that?
I know that even throwing a football back and forth in a parking lot at night can be difficult, because the ball just about disappears as it leaves the pool of light my friend is in, and only becomes fully visible again as it enters my pool of light. Seeing my friend throw the ball gives me an advantage, because I can intuit the speed and trajectory of the throw, and the ball isn't totally invisible (totally concealed), but it's close. Even with those advantages over the tennis ball scenario above, it can be tough to catch the ball cleanly, especially if my friend throws a wobbly ball rather than a spiral.
Assuming your within sneak attack range(generally 30 feet) darkness, invisibility or even standing in a fog cloud with an ability to see through it all grant sa. This is assuming the opponent hasn't also got a way to see into the darkness (darkvision or fog cutting goggles.) This is a large part of why the waves oracle/ninja build is so popular. Pretty much guaranteed sa.
Well, I found a reference at Rules Compendium 3.5 that might clarify this: under line of sight, "when line of sight is blocked by something that doesn't otherwise physically block or prevent an attack that doesn't require line of sight (such as fog) you can still make the attack, but your target is treated as if it were invisible"
So I suppose that means that yes, total concealment equals being invisible and the drow should have used his sneak attack.
This is reminding me of the thread about ninjas not being able to assassinate people if that person just thinks of them as an enemy
Until one of the drow attacks you cannot know FOR CERTAIN that is a drow in the darkness attacking you
Even after the first attack your character cannot know FOR CERTAIN that each attack is a different drow or if all attacks are coming from one drow...or if what is attacking you isn't an animated crossbow
Your character cannot see the attack happening so should not be able to react to it...based on the rulingmade for stealth based on the line about losing DEX to AC to attacks you cannot react to...if someone is totally concealed from you then they should be able to apply precision damage like sneak attack
Lets say there were 8 areas of darkness and only me (level 9 ninja)...I ambush your party by shooting a bow out of the darkness...I get sneak attack because you would be FF and unable to react to my attack correct? Well now you KNOW I'm in darkness area 1 right?
Well lets day next turn my wizard friend dimension doors me to darkness area 4 o. The other side of the party...if I were to attack now would it not be fair to say you are unable to react to the attack since for all the character knows its a new ninjas attacking and you had no idea I was there?
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I can say, at least, that the idea of using stealth when you have total concealment to get the sneak attack doesn't work per the rules:
From the Stealth skill entry:
"Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
If you have total concealment against a foe, they are not someone who might notice you. The cannot notice you as they cannot see you. You cannot use stealth against them because stealth essentially gives you total concealment against a foe who cannot perceive you due to the stealth.
As a GM, my ruling would be you can sneak attack against a foe who cannot see you regardless of the reason.
Exception: You could use auditory stealth not to be heard, but that isn't germane to the issue of whether sneak attack would work.
Well, obviously we disagree. Perceive is not equal to see. Many forget that. Stealth is not Hide, Perception is not Spot. If you are perceived and I don't have a condition/circumstance that says I am denied my dexterity and you don't have a condition/circumstance that says your target is denied its dexterity, then I don't think Sneak Attack applies.
But your arguments are sound, Especially the part hidden under Blindsense.
Yeti,
Another example of the same exact mechanic is that of the bright sunny day where you and your friends are hanging out. One stands in a dark shadow. You know where your friend is, but can't see him. He throws a tennis ball at you. Of course you can dodge it. You could have up to 30' to recognize the threat and react.
Concealment is mentioned in the Core Rulebook 107 times. 30 of those refer to total concealment. None of them say that a target of a creature that has total concealment is automatically denied their dexterity. It seems odd to me that they would leave it out if it were automatically the case.
But, I have been wrong before.
A few of us have pointed out Blindsense. We can add in the Playtest II. Curious to know if there are any other sources that equate "can't be seen" with "deny Dex". :)
You can sneak attack when you are flanking or when your target is denied a dex bonus to DC.
Here are the major ways a target can lose its dexterity bonus in Pathfinder:
1) If you, the attacker, are invisible.
2) If you have successfully feinted in combat using the bluff skill (melee attacks only).
3) If the target has the blinded condition (including the target being in "an area of darkness" if the target does not have the ability to see through/in the dark.
4) If the target has the cowering condition.
5) If the target has the flat-footed condition.
6) If the target has the stunned condition.
7) If the target has the pinned condition (not merely grappled).
8) If the target has the helpless condition.
9) If the target is running.
10) If the target is using Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground.
11) If the target is climbing but does not have a climb speed.
12) If the target is using the Escape Artist skill to squeeze through or into a space less than half its width.
13) If the target is off balance when swimming (see underwater combat rules).
14) If you are using the Improved Deadshot ability of the Crossbowman Fighter archtype.
15) If you are using the Impromptu Sneak Attack ability of the Arcane Trickster.
16) If you are using the Prescient Attack ability of the Magus.
17) If you are using any of the following feats: Surprise Follow-Through feat (or its Improved version), Disengaging Shot, or other feats that work with feint.
(Please chime in if I missed any.)
The question is: Does a target loses its dex bonus when attacked by creatures it cannot see. The rules in Pathfinder are ambiguous about this -- "If you cannot be seen" is not a condition mentioned as one that allows you to deny a target a dex bonus.
A DM might be guided by the following points:
1) The rules for Blindsense imply that the answer is yes:
"A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see."
If a creature with Blindsense is denied its dex bonus against creatures it cannot see, then surely so too are creatures without Blindsense. Especially given the use of the word "still" in the rules.
2) A target who is blinded loses its dex bonus. If you have the invisible condition your target loses its dex bonus. Based on these, it is logical to rule that if the target cannot see/perceive you, it is denied its dex bonus.
I find these two points compelling, and would urge DMs to be swayed by them. HOWEVER, so far as I can tell, RAW, your target does not lose its dex bonus just because it cannot perceive you.
[Note: In addition to the Drow firing from Darkness example and the sniping example, other good examples would include archers firing from behind an illusionary wall, or an oracle who is in smoke or mist who can also see through smoke or mist firing out of the smoke/mist at a target beyond the radius of the smoke/mist.]
LOL, the tennis ball was not the point. The point was that the target is in an area where the target A: can see and B: knows the attacker is there. The target was not holding a flash light and trying to dodge the ball.
None of this works if the target does not know the attacker is there. That is normally decided through Stealth/Perception checks. Otherwise, it is clearly stated when a target is denied dexterity.
That is my claim/position in this argument.
But as others have stated, blindsense shoots holes into my argument. I just can't figure out why it wouldn't be under Total Concealment. But, as I have stated in many posts, the rules are often hidden all over the place.
Being denied dex is not really a function of the stealth skill, but a it is a result of failing perception check. That is because you don't have to even use the stealth skill to sneak attack someone, but failing a perception check sets you up.
As for darkness, it is not "auto stealth". It gives 20% miss chance/concealment which means you can be seen depending on the level of light. It can also give 50% miss chance depending on the level of light that is there before the spell is cast.
If you are not aware of an opponent or if you can not react to them properly then you may be subject to sneak attack. Basically if you can't see them then you lose dex against them.
I have broken this down before and the devs backed that up in the FAQ.
PS: I skipped a lot of post, but I am sure the point of contention will be restated.
PS2: Blindsense does nothing to prevent loss of dex if you still can not see your attacker. That is what blindsight does. However blindsense may allow you to detect the attacker, if you can see him normally.
LOL, the tennis ball was not the point. The point was that the target is in an area where the target A: can see and B: knows the attacker is there. The target was not holding a flash light and trying to dodge the ball.
None of this works if the target does not know the attacker is there. That is normally decided through Stealth/Perception checks. Otherwise, it is clearly stated when a target is denied dexterity.
That is my claim/position in this argument.
But as others have stated, blindsense shoots holes into my argument. I just can't figure out why it wouldn't be under Total Concealment. But, as I have stated in many posts, the rules are often hidden all over the place.
Komoda , stealth never say it let you deny Dex. It says that if you successful stealth, you have total concealment. The you said, over and over again, that stealth is a way to land sneak attack. Logical conclusion, concealment give you the chance to land SA. So, decide yourself, if total concealment don't let you land sneak attacks, neither stealth does. If stealth make you able to SA , since it give you total concealment, any thing that provide the same bonuses of stealth let you land SA, thus total concealment is sufficient to deal SA. Choose one or another, the rules that you'd like give reason to you don't let you have a choice other than those. Funny enough, you said that are hundreds of occurrence of total concealment, and non of them says about SA... guess what is the only bonus that stealth give you and you used to say that's a way to land SA?
It is agreed by many that stealth doesn't deny dexterity by RAW. The Devs have stated that the intent is to be able to sneak attack from Stealth. Complete reworks have been suggested because of the acknowledged failure to state the above.
A key line is Stealth is that is says your opponents, "are not aware of you". That is not the case in the OPs stated situation. Most agree you cannot defend from someone that you are not aware of.
That is different than being "unable to defend himself effectively" (Sneak Attack, CRB) from someone that you know where they are but a sheet is between you. Stealth checks (and many abilities) are what make them not aware and "trigger" sneak attack/denied dexterity.
The rules are messed up all over the place. I don't know what the right answer is. But, as I stated before, in 30 mentions of Total Concealment, not one says that your target is denied dexterity. Again, blindsense is the only place that gives any real support otherwise. And that is such a weird place to put it!
It is agreed by many that stealth doesn't deny dexterity by RAW. The Devs have stated that the intent is to be able to sneak attack from Stealth. Complete reworks have been suggested because of the acknowledged failure to state the above.
You're the one the said "I'm talking about mechanics". So, if you're talking about mechanics as written, only invisibility and the surprise around (along with other really rare cases) let you make sneak attack. If you accept the statements of the devs, you're going in the "intended" terrain. So you need to prove that the total concealment is not meant to give you the SA.
A key line is Stealth is that is says your opponents, "are not aware of you". That is not the case in the OPs stated situation. Most agree you cannot defend from someone that you are not aware of.
You're not aware of where the opponents are (you can point an area, but you cannot pinpoint the exact location), you're not aware of when the shots are fired (you cannot see when the enemy nock the arrow), you're not aware from the arrow are fired (you can say from what area, you can, at best, even say the approximate direction, but you don't know the correct distance and the exact angle). Since we're now in the RAI terrain, I'd say for sure that you're really "not aware".
That is different than being "unable to defend himself effectively" (Sneak Attack, CRB) from someone that you know where they are but a sheet is between you. Stealth checks (and many abilities) are what make them not aware and "trigger" sneak attack/denied dexterity.
Let me reverse the thing: I can turn a corner, going out of sight, and stealth. Nest round, let's say you didn't move, you are totally aware of where I am and that I exist and I'm in combat, and I'm able to deal sneak attack. It seems ridicolous as the paper sheet between me and you.
The rules are messed up all over the place. I don't know what the right answer is. But, as I stated before, in 30 mentions of Total Concealment, not one says that your target is denied dexterity. Again, blindsense is the only place that gives any real support otherwise. And that is such a weird place to put it!
I think the devs intention was that stealth give you SA chance because the total concealment. My call is totally for the SA in the OP case, and in any case where similar situation are coming. The paper sheet is not, in my view, a good enough "out of sight device". At best, it could give 20%, no more.
To the OP, I would have given SA damage on the first attack due to surprise depending on the players of course - Divination School and other mitigating factors nonwithstanding.
Sometimes guidelines can be open to interpretation - just make your best judgement and game on.
I said I was talking about mechanics, not just RAW. Nowhere in concealment does it say "not aware". That is reserved for Stealth.
I don't need to prove anything. This is only a discussion about our claims. It is inferred from Blindsense that I am incorrect. It is not inferred in any mention of concealment that I am incorrect. There is no indication of RAI for firing out of concealment.
There are interpretations. They are all valid. I have not seen a wild, outrageous claim.
Stealth is Stealth. I don't understand why you are claiming that if you have Stealth, you gain Sneak Attack. We all agree that is the case. What are you reversing?
If you are not "Stealthed" you are perceived. If you are perceived, I am aware. You state I don't know anything because I can't see it. I say I can hear many of the things you are talking about. The rules (mechanics) say you are perceived.
All the Drow has to do is take a millisecond to Stealth to gain the benefits of Stealth.
The benefits for being in total concealment are:
Can't be targeted directly.
50% miss chance if square targeted.
Opportunity to trigger Stealth.
No Attack of Opportunity
None of those are: Targets of attacks are denied dexterity.
There is no fifth benefit.
Would you give people in Total Concealment a +20 to stealth checks? If not, why would you give them other benefits of being invisible? Why aren't those benefits listed under Total Concealment?
What if the target was 500' away? Would he still be denied dexterity? 1000'? Take out Sneak Attack and just make it denied dexterity, which is the trigger we are talking about for Sneak Attack. Does the distance now matter? Sneak Attack may only work within 30' but denied dexterity doesn't have that limitation.
Again, Blindsense shoots holes into my theory, I still can't figure out why that line is there and nowhere else.
What does it mean when something is totally concealed? Doesn't it mean you can't see it?
Honestly not sure how that is any different than invisible.
Would you give people in Total Concealment a +20 to stealth checks?
Actually...if you're trying to perceive something you can't see, then I would treat it as something that you can't see. :P
Is everyone in the game world deaf? Can they not perceive the creature coming around the corner? Are they all surprised every time they can actually see them? Are two people walking towards an intersection from different halls surprised the other is there, even if they were talking to each other?
An invisible creature casts no shadow.
One in total concealment may.
An invisible creature cannot reflect light onto another object.
One in total concealment may.
An invisible creature cannot be seen in a reflection.
One in total concealment may.
Total Concealment is not Invisibility.
Most of that is not in fact relevant. Assuming a Human standing in a 10 foot pool of light surrounded by say 10 feet of dim light and everything beyond that is full darkness.
the human is 100% incapable of making any visual idenfication of his attackers. There is no reflection there is absolutely nothing for him to see.
He can hear them, and likely cant smell them short of special circumstances.
Anything, that adds factors like reflection of light or reflection etc. Will likely remove the darkness and the the inability to see them.
Basically, A human in this situation as long as the darkness remains has no ability to identify his attacker any more than he does an invisible person in the day time. In fact he probly has /less/ ability to identfy his attacker.
Were not talking, dim light were talking absolute darkness with no shadows.
Or try this thought, would an invisible person standing in absolute darkness attacking a person in the light who cannot see them loose the benefit of his invisibility?.
Is everyone in the game world deaf? Can they not perceive the creature coming around the corner? Are they all surprised every time they can actually see them? Are two people walking towards an intersection from different halls surprised the other is there, even if they were talking to each other?
Invisibility doesn't suppress noise.
An invisible creature casts no shadow.
One in total concealment may.An invisible creature cannot reflect light onto another object.
One in total concealment may.An invisible creature cannot be seen in a reflection.
One in total concealment may.
That's why invisibility give a +20 to stealth.
Total Concealment is not Invisibility.
In fact invisibility give you more bonus. Blindsense clearly states that if you cannot see you lose your dex. And someone with blindsense should have really less problem. But let's go on. I can see that you want the right, do yes, you're right. You can't see the opponent but you can still perfectly defend yourself. Though time for your friends if they want to joke you.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
That is all the justification needed for sneak attacking from an area of darkness.
I know the lighting rules trip people up for some reason... but they make perfect sense if you just visualize the situation.
Looking into an area that is completely dark is like being blind to that area. If a creature is in an area of darkness, you are blind to that creature. If you are blind to that creature, you lose your dex bonus to AC against that creature's attacks. If you lose dex to AC, sneak attack.