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I think people are getting caught up between two senses of the word "move".
Is "waving your hands wildly over your head" considered "moving"? For purposes of movement rates, it is not, because it does not change your location. For purposes of someone who is pointing a crossbow at you and said "don't make any sudden moves", it probably is.
Paralysis clearly doesn't mean "you are fixed in space, but can change your pose, wave your arms around, and do other things". It probably does mean "you cannot change your pose, or wave your arms around, but are not fixed in space; however, normally you have no way to change your location if you can't take actions like walking".
The big question is whether directing your movement while using magical flight that isn't based on wings counts as a "purely mental action". I would say it probably does, since there's no hint of any specific physical action you'd have to take.
Agree. Paralyzed means "you can't move," not "you are immobile." When paralyzed, you cannot physically move yourself. But there is nothing preventing you from mentally moving yourself when using the Fly spell because it is your mental exertions that is propelling you, and the Paralyzed condition specifically says you can perform mental actions.
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Disregarding wings and ideas about being unable to breathe etc.
I think, in this context:
- "unable to move" refers to "moving out of the square".
- "unable to act" includes "taking action (mental or otherwise) to have an end result"
And to answer "does the PC go into automatic hover?", I think the intent is that you hover without fly checks whether you like it or not. This goes along with both the ideas of "unable to move" and "unable to act" that I've mentioned above.
How this works is a bit strange, simply because if you did have control and wanted to hover, you'd have to succeed on the fly check or fail to hover. Tactically speaking though, it kind of works.
@Avatar-1 but as someone already pointed out, it does go on to say that you can take mental actions
What is walking? It's movement. If you're paralyzed you can't do ANY form of movement, you're essentially shut down from any voluntary physical action. If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.Yes, you can move through space under a fly spell while paralyzed.
The paralyzed condition says you cannot move or act. It goes on to say you can take purely mental action.
The fly spell says it takes as much concentration as walking. This refers to the need of some spells that require concentration, which in itself is a standard action. So, the fact that it refers to walking shouldn't be seen as really having to do with movement per se.
I think you misunderstood the comparison. Walking is equal to flying in its degree of concentration, not its physical requirements
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There has been some good points made here on both sides.
We know its possible to exit the space because it clearly says a creature with wings falls. Of course that's obviously because his flight depends on physical movement, but the important part is that he can exit the space he was paralyzed in. It also states that you can still take mental actions. These two bits combined mean you can direct a spell while paralyzed or, if you possess the apropriate feats, you could even teleport while paralyzed. To me its quite obvious that if magical flight is a purely mental action then you can certainly still fly as well.
The only real question is whether or not flight is a mental action or if it requires some degree of physical stimuli. The rules don't specify so its pretty much up to the DM. Personally I have always assumed it was purely mental, like some type of self telekinesis or something. I'd rule that you can continue flying
One thing it certainly wouldn't do is cause a magically flying creature to hover. I thought that was a decent way to rule it at first too, but as I thought about it I realized if magical flight takes some degree of physical movement then you would fall, and if it doesn't then you can still fly
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.
Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Flying, even under the effect of the Fly spell, is in at least some ways physical.
How? That is for our imagination to come up with... but mechanically, Strength determines the weight you can carry, and Dexterity determines your skill in the air... it is physical.
If you are paralyzed, you cannot fly. You just remain motionless wherever you where before, kinda floating there if magical, simply falling to the ground if by wings.
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
What is the maximum load of someone with a 0 Strength? That is how much they can carry aloft as they are making their purely mental action of base concentration to move via magic.
(Granted, I think it's dumb to say that a 30STR man wearing Hide armor can only move 40ft while an 8STR man holding the same armor in his hands can move 60ft. But it is what it is, if we're talking RAW.)
Even if you are using a fly spell you still have to either move at least half your speed or successfully hover to remain flying.If you are paralyzed, you cannot fly. You just remain motionless wherever you where before, kinda floating there if magical, simply falling to the ground if by wings.
I get why you would say that, but I'm not sure that is exactly RAW.
There is no consequence for failing the hover check if you are flying by Fly. Not by RAW, anyway. Though it is certainly home-ruled in a myriad of ways.
The two applicable parts of Fly skill that I think you are drawing your conclusion from are these:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
But this doesn't say that a check is absolutely mandatory, simply that one isn't at all if you move greater than half speed. Implication – Fly check needed to move less than half… but never outright stated as such in all circumstances, or really at all.
Try Again
Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Is completely silent on the consequence for failing if you are not using wings.
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Of course you can fly while paralyzed! If the airline refuses to let you board because you're disabled, you have serious grounds for a lawsuit under the Americans With Disabilities Act. I would recommend calling the ACLU. And then... Um... Oh.
Never mind.
A paralyzed creature is not unable to take move actions. It explicitly calls out purely mental activities as permitted. So, for instance redirecting a spiritual hammer, which is a move action is permitted. Purely mental, as in lacking physical activity.
And yet, the hammer moves. Why? Because the hammer is magically moved.
Same thing applies for if you were concentrating on a telekinesis spell. You'd be allowed to trigger it to cause motion. In fact, it'd be reasonable to make yourself the target of a Violent Thrust, perhaps trying to get your paralyzed body out of the path of fire, or other impending danger.
Now, mage hand you couldn't use, because it specifically says you need to point a finger, which you cannot do.
So. The fly spell doesn't say anything about needing to flap or make woosh noises with your lips, or anything else that requires you to move your body. It's relocation of the otherwise helpless body, via magic. Same as dimension door, same as a Violent Thrust. Same as if you cast a Silent Still create pit underneath yourself so you'd fall down out of combat. Magic movement.
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Ooooooh I like! Rooted to the spot means someone paralyzed functions like an unmovable rod then, right? As in, put me in the way of the tarrasque's bull rush and paralyze me, and he'll stop dead in his tracks.
So. The fly spell doesn't say anything about needing to flap or make woosh noises with your lips, or anything else that requires you to move your body. It's relocation of the otherwise helpless body, via magic. Same as dimension door, same as a Violent Thrust. Same as if you cast a Silent Still create pit underneath yourself so you'd fall down out of combat. Magic movement.
Care to explain away the Str and Dex dependencies for flying with Fly, then?
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I see two disagreements.
Is magical flight a physical action? Some say yes. Some say no. I've explained my reasons for saying no. I see nothing meaningful to dismiss my argument.
Does the word move in the paralysis condition mean the move action or physical mobility? I see this as physical mobility: moving your body, not moving in space. The condition clearly states purely mental activities are possible. There is no restriction on actions. I have seen nothing to argue against this other than asertations.
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A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Fly has carry capacity limits based on Str.
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Additionally, Fly skill is Dex based. Your effective Dex is 0. You cannot use this skill while paralyzed.
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.Fly (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)Flying, even under the effect of the Fly spell, is in at least some ways physical.
How? That is for our imagination to come up with... but mechanically, Strength determines the weight you can carry, and Dexterity determines your skill in the air... it is physical.
If you are paralyzed, you cannot fly. You just remain motionless wherever you where before, kinda floating there if magical, simply falling to the ground if by wings.
The Fly spell does not say or imply in any way that it requires any degree of physical activity at all like your claiming. Many people, myself included, view it as some sort of personal telekinesis. Its GMs call at this point
Did anyone hit the FAQ que?
A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Fly has carry capacity limits based on Str.
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Additionally, Fly skill is Dex based. Your effective Dex is 0. You cannot use this skill while paralyzed.
that's a good point, but to me that would mean you fall, not hover
that's a good point, but to me that would mean you fall, not hoverA paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Fly has carry capacity limits based on Str.
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Additionally, Fly skill is Dex based. Your effective Dex is 0. You cannot use this skill while paralyzed.
That is the part that is a GM's call, the consequence, either fall or float motionless.
But continuing to zip around is plain out by RAW.
This may be one of those things that is intentionally left up to the GM. It's even possible that different caster's fly spells work differently.
Mine might look like a Digby's hand grasping me by the collar and "flying" me where I want. A druidy gnome's might look like thousands of moths converging and flying her around on many tiny wings. Someone else's verbal components might be "Up, up and way !". Gnarly dude's flight looks like riding an invisible surf-board.
Perhaps it works one way in certain campaign worlds and a different way in others.
A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Fly has carry capacity limits based on Str.
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Additionally, Fly skill is Dex based. Your effective Dex is 0. You cannot use this skill while paralyzed.
The one about strength and carrying capacity seemed to be a nail in the coffin, but I can't find anything to back up the 0 strength score. On paralysis it says the character will be helpless, whereas helpless grants 0 dex. As the strength isn't affected, you'll be no more at overload under a paralysis effect, and I agree with the proponents of fly being a mental action.
I'm imagining a helpless log floating around, crashing into walls whenever he fails fly checks.
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You can fly while paralyzed.
Remember, the rules are written assuming "normal" circumstances. In a normal circumstance, a creature is on the ground or swimming or using wings to fly. In that normal circumstance, a paralyzed creature cannot move, as movement is mechanical in nature. This kind of reasoning was discussed with touch attacks, as the developers "assume" you are holding the charge in your hands (a normal circumstance), not with your feet, hooves, bite attack, etc.
What if a creature only moved via teleportation using their mind? Paralyzation wouldn't have any effect, they would be a teleporting brick. Fly is exactly the same thing.
The fly spell, once casts, says it only requires concentration. It doesn't say you grow wings, or must flap your arms, etc. Thus, you would be forbidden from taking any kind of action that required something like that, but you could fly, like a flying brick. Had the fly spell said you grow wings, then no, you can't fly. If it said you must act like a bird, then no, you can't fly. Doesn't say that either. You just become a flying brick. Does it make sense? Of course not, it's magic.
You could try to do flying maneuvers, but since that would require a dexterity based skill check, you'd probably be at stiff penalties since I'd rule you have a dexterity of 0.
In rules discussions, while I know it's tempting to point at a specific few words and say "see, it says you can't move", one must remember it's made for normal circumstances. When you have a specific circumstance that overrules it, it overrules it. Fly is one of those specific circumstances.
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Omission in this case means that there is no special treatment for magical flight, that you use the same rules as winged flight.If you're hit with paralysis while flying, you immediately assume the aerodynamic characteristics of a brick, whether you're using wings, or magical flight.I'm not convinced that this is the intent and it's certainly not what's written.
Magical flight is not called out at all, only winged flight.
The omission may be by design.
No, this is a case of "exception proves the rule". Since there is an explicit rule that says it applies to winged flight, that rule does not apply to non-winged flight, and the assumption is that the existence of an explicit exception implies a general rule which is otherwise.
That said, I do think the effective strength zero may have the implied effect: "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions."
For game-balance reasons, flight respects carrying capacity, and your carrying capacity becomes zero when paralyzed.
Okay, but what happens to a character held a loft by magical flight that has surpassed their carrying capacity?
For that matter what happens to a character that is standing on terra firma and surpasses his/her carrying capacity? Do they fall prone?
If they're paralyzed and cannot move or take actions, can they call prone?
I'm really not sure what is supposed to happen in the instance put forth by the OP; I'm not convinced the character would plummet to the earth. And I'm not convinced they can carry on as though nothing happened.
I mean, if the character was paralyzed first I don't think it would be at all reasonable to cast fly on them so they could fly away to safety.
@Moondragon
teleportation doesn't rely on a Str score, fly does because it has a carry capacity, and exceeding that renders you immobile. Since paralyze gives you an effective Str of 0, you can not fly and plummet to the ground. Teleport still works though as long as you can cast it silently
You cannot fly while paralyzed. The fly skill is dexterity based, which means that using it requires physical movement to use. I would rule that a character in that situation hovers in place, subject to winds, etc.But even hovering requires a Fly check. I'd rule that a paralyzed person automatically fails all Fly checks, however nowhere in the Fly skill does it specify what happens when you fail a Fly check (unless you're using wings).
Don't you fall when you fail to hover? You don't have the options of staying where you are (since you failed to hover) or of deliberately moving (since you are paralyzed), so what else is left but falling?
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I would say that you fall, but gently (feather fall). Much in the same way you fall if the spell timer runs out.
But it would be a house rule.
The casting requirements, such as somatic, are not extending to the duration. When you cast mage armor are you waving your hands and murming arcane words for hours at a time?
YES this absolutely YES! In my games you also have to walk like a chicken!
We'll take those mysterious mages down a notch with public humiliation. Sure you can reshape reality on a whim but you have to impersonate a chicken to do it!
Once you're adding "Hold Person" to the mix, see This Thread about the effects of being subject to a Hold Person spell whilst flying.
Most likely, yes. Material components were chosen for spells for various reasons, some for symbolism, classic sympathy, but more often than not, amateur humor.^ You're under the mistaken impression that I'd claimed I'd proven anything.
Want more evidence?
Hold person renders a creature paralyzed. The material component? A straight bar of iron. An immovable rod? A straight bar of iron. Coincidence?
Granted :)
While it might not be entirely obvious over the Internet, it bears mentioning that I'm not completely serious about believing the intent was for paralyzed creatures to become immovable rods.
That said, I have more or less convinced myself that this is a valid interpretation - possibly not the only one - of the RAW. It matches expected behavior in all but marginal corner cases, and in the corner cases, its behavior is in-line with other similar game mechanics.
It only makes sense if the word "immobile" does not also have an equally valid but contextually more relevant definition of "not moving" or "being motionless". But it does.
That said, I have more or less convinced myself that this is a valid interpretation - possibly not the only one - of the RAW. It matches expected behavior in all but marginal corner cases, and in the corner cases, its behavior is in-line with other similar game mechanics.
There is your problem. You need to stop believing everything you think. (Not just you specifically, really its a problem we all have).
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A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.
Strength of 0 has a carrying capacity of 0.
He is automatically overloaded, and cannot move.
Since when does a person's own weight count towards encumbrance?
Fly has carry capacity limits based on Str.
"You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver."
So hey, we can just ignore the Fly skill entirely for purposes of this discussion as long as we don't try anything complicated. Yay!
The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Yup, got that. And while it might be reasonable to declare "you're not absolutely nude so you can't fly", it might also not be. Remember, it's dealing with what you carry. It's a model for "I grab Frank's unconscious body and fly away with it." You know, things you carry in your arms. While yeah, there's a literalist interpretation of this sentence, we both know that it's about preventing a flying mage from saying he wants to "pick up the castle", not about a DM saying "you know Bob, your wizard's been sewing those sequins on his robes... those are heavy so you can't fly anymore."
Additionally, Fly skill is Dex based. Your effective Dex is 0. You cannot use this skill while paralyzed.
Actually, - not that you need to use Fly to fly - citation required. The abilities section in Core discusses what happens when various abilities hit zero, but I couldn't find anything that says what you just said.
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Look at all the comments so far!
This question is further complicated by wondering what else you can do while paralyzed (our party just had a blasphemy dropped on it).
Can you channel energy?
Can you use a witch hex?
Can you activate smite evil?
Can you lay on hands on yourself?
Can you avert your eyes from a gaze attack? (how do we know you weren't paralyzed in the middle of a blink or while glancing down at your spell component pouch?)
What are the purely mental actions that could be performed? Directing a spiritual weapon/flaming sphere was mentioned earlier...
Note: all the silly arguments about Golarion's rotation and revolution around its sun make as much sense for the immovable rod as for a paralyzed creature. In other words, none, your argument is specious, go home. :)
Excuse me? No. It doesn't work that way. If you want to be literal, be my guest. But obey your own rules. You don't get to discard the implications of your rules and act like we're the ones being ridiculous.
We all "get it" that immovable rods are not literally immovable. We all "get it" that they are immovable relative to their surroundings. So not in fact immovable at all.
So which is it? Are the immovable or not? Are you going to play the literal game or not? You must choose, and because there is an absurdity in the literal choice doesn't make US wrong for pointing it out.