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really so you dont get them for free?Do you see how that would make a difference when comparing the two characters?
in a fight against each other? no
would 3.5k ruin my characters ability to do combat? no
would spending 3.5k (at the most) for a scroll even prevent me from getting my +10 falcata, my +10 medium wood armor, which would still let me flurry? no
basically im tossing pocket change for an advantage in killing my target. i dont see why this is a negative...
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Well the benefit of the Druid20 is that he just casts them every day so if always prepared. You are having to buy high caster level scrolls and use them every day or you end up not having them available when you do encounter your target or you have to use them in combat which is horribly inefficient. 3500 may well be pocket change but when you are paying it out every day it is much more of an issue.
you are aware that the entire premise of my exchange with TOZ and Kirth Gersen is a single combat exchange right?
i dont understand why you even needed to add that. how many days is irrelevant unless this combat is planning on using the span of weeks to be concluded.
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i dont understand why you even needed to add that. how many days is irrelevant unless this combat is planning on using the span of weeks to be concluded.
Because you don't know when this combat is going to happen. That's what building for general adventuring rather than specific known fights does.
Saying "I am buying this buff scroll and casting it today in case I meet an enemy" is metagaming when you only do it on the day you as a player know the fight is going to happen.
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THE ENTIRE FREAKIN PREMISE IS A META!! this is a bubble discussion, this isnt a boss encounter. there is no BBEG, its my character kicks your character in the teeth.
how did arrive at the conclusion that this is anything else?!
i said " a 12 sohei/8 druid can destroy a solid 20 druid" i didnt say lets make believe that my character is prancing through the flowers singing the sound of music and you jump me. this is an assumed conflict with both parties aware of the combat.
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So the Druid 20 waits til you use your scroll and earthglides away and comes back the next day?
The issue is one of resource management and allocation and it is one where Druid 20 will have an advantage.
Keep in mind though that all of this is really of limited value. The point here is decide what angle you want to play and play it that way. If you want more melee focus go druid/monk, though I agree that 19/1, 18/2, 12/8 and 8/12 are better breakdowns than 10/10 which is one of the worst esp. from a BAB and save basis, if you want more casting/versatility/flexibility consider straight druid or the 19/1 if you want just a little monk.
Personally given that some GMs question whether monk abilities work if you are wearing armor or wild armor and wild shaped make sure you discuss your options first.
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this is an assumed conflict with both parties aware of the combat.
Then we have differing standards of comparison. We believe you should compare characters "in production", which means not skewing them towards the challenge but rather 'as they would be played'. You seem to have a different idea.
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So the Druid 20 waits til you use your scroll and earthglides away and comes back the next day?
so you admit you lost the combat because you got scared and earth glided away?
The issue is one of resource management and allocation and it is one where Druid 20 will have an advantage.
Keep in mind though that all of this is really of limited value. The point here is decide what angle you want to play and play it that way. If you want more melee focus go druid/monk, though I agree that 19/1, 18/2, 12/8 and 8/12 are better breakdowns than 10/10 which is one of the worst esp. from a BAB and save basis, if you want more casting/versatility/flexibility consider straight druid or the 19/1 if you want just a little monk.
do not reference my post, then make irrelevant points to my post. this has nothing to do with what im saying. im guessing 2 different conversations are occuring right now.
Personally given that some GMs question whether monk abilities work if you are wearing armor or wild armor and wild shaped make sure you discuss your options first.
it does, tell you gm "oh well" if he doesnt like it.
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So the Druid 20 waits til you use your scroll and earthglides away and comes back the next day?so you admit you lost the combat because you got scared and earth glided away?
You didn't defeat him, you're missing gold, and now you have no scroll. You call this a win?
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You didn't defeat him, you're missing gold, and now you have no scroll. You call this a win?So the Druid 20 waits til you use your scroll and earthglides away and comes back the next day?so you admit you lost the combat because you got scared and earth glided away?
yes, because he ran away. that means he lost
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My apologies for not more specifically separating the comments more thoroughly.
Simply the Druid 20 has an advantage of resources if you have to spend them and he doesn't, I do not care either way who wins or loses, I am simply pointing out one advantage of the Druid 20 as it applies to that issue being discussed.
If all you are talking about is a single fight then both parties would be wise to spend resources on single use items, since you are confining the fight to a specific duel, which has specific rules that you are assuming, i.e. retreat = loss.
If you are dealing with a more complicated scenario than the advantage of single use items drops dramatically as the fight or fights might occur over a more extended period of time. In that case it becomes a question of which resources are valuable and might be considered required. For example 2 levels of monk provides evasion where as the straight druid might have to spend 25000 gp to achieve the same value or pick a specific domain limiting his other options. In this case a monk/druid may have additional resources to spend on other options.
I do not propose to know who would win in such a fight or particularly care, there are advantages to both sides including saving throw advantages, AC advantages, spell access, followers and so forth. As I have said it all depends on what you are going for in designing the character and the role it will play.
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this is an assumed conflict with both parties aware of the combat.
Wait, didn't you tell me the druid had no buffs up? Are we assuming he's got an Int of 1 then?
Or are you just shifting the goalposts?**
Not that I have lost any belief in the 10 Drd/ 10 Mnk split (it is only one of the two ways I know off to get a weapon that does more damage than a CL 20 blast spell), but do people feel better about a 3 Mnk / 17 Drd vs a 20 Druid? Exact same wildshape, 9th level spells, better saves and AC and 8d8 damage on attacks versus 2d8.
prototype00
Not that I have lost any belief in the 10 Drd/ 10 Mnk split (it is only one of the two ways I know off to get a weapon that does more damage than a CL 20 blast spell), but do people feel better about a 3 Mnk / 17 Drd vs a 20 Druid? Exact same wildshape, 9th level spells, better saves and AC and 8d8 damage on attacks versus 2d8.
prototype00
This sounds rather strong, the problem is you would have to fit the monk levels in at the end of your level progression or always be behind in casting. This would probably be pretty good, but most campaigns don't reach that point.
You also lose out on you capstone, which is wildshaping at will. While one big Wild Shape is enough for combat, this will highly increase your potential as scout, etc. Think about all you can do while switchinga nimal forms at will.Druid vs. Monkdruid - IMO one should look at the role he wants his character to play:
Melee damage/Tank? - Druid doesn't offer much post level 12 aside of some buffs to this role. Therefore Progressing as monk would be useful.
Summoner/caster - You spam creatures all over the battlefield and don't really need to be extra tanky, since you can put a wall of creatures beetween you and the enemies.
Gish guy - You are still a solid combatant and can go melee if you want too, while not losing out on spell levels by being a full druid.
----> A druid/monk makes a strong melee with nice damage potential, but will never reach the utility of full druid.
I would likely play full druid, but I see a Druid/Monk has some merits if one wants to dedicate himself to figthing wgile Wildshaped.
Last but not least a druid with a Barbarian dip for Furious Finish is also a great alternative to boost the dedicated melee druid.
Not that I have lost any belief in the 10 Drd/ 10 Mnk split (it is only one of the two ways I know off to get a weapon that does more damage than a CL 20 blast spell), but do people feel better about a 3 Mnk / 17 Drd vs a 20 Druid? Exact same wildshape, 9th level spells, better saves and AC and 8d8 damage on attacks versus 2d8.
What are you trying to accomplish?
In general, a full caster can win and should win encounters without ever making a melee attack herself. Druids are no exception to this rule. Even sticking to druid 20, a melee and wildshaping focused druid is generally weaker than a casting focused druid.
Until the caster runs out of spells, which rarely happens in tabletop play with reasonably sized groups. (Offhand, I can only think of one scene in one adventure path that's specifically designed to make sure that a bunch of high-level characters are completely out of all daily ability like spells at the end of it, and even then the author described that as something that should feel truly epic to the players.)
For the same reason, a CL 20 blast spell is a rather poor use of a spell (although it's a lot more fun than most of the battlefield control spells).
Three levels of monk will make you substantially better at a strategically worse but arguably more fun choice.
At some point you just have to realize that theory is theory and practice is practice. I can't picture myself ever finishing Druid to 20, after level 17 there is nothing keeping me here, I have my 9th level spells. Becoming an Inquisitor to get my wisdom + dexterity to my initiative is probably more attractive than Monk, but Monk is offering much more than the rest of Druid for sure. If I was getting to the high levels, cherry picking the wizard/sorcerer spell list is worth pretty much any price.
Samsaran is probably the best race for any Cleric, Druid, Witch or Wizard. I consider it on any of those kind of characters, but I don't want it to become a joke or banned in our group, so I usually don't play it.