We can talk more when you've taken at least an intro course.
That's because, with all respect, you're to a fair extent ignorant of how orogeny works and why mountains look they way they do. Either that, or you're wilfully misrepresenting my post.You said regarding setting specifics for plate movement: "Don't have to read it; you can tell from the mountain ranges."
Not sure how else you meant this to be read.
Geology major at the University of Texas here. I know orogeny, uplift and tilt, and the processes involved in creating the mountain ranges on Earth.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.
Or they are just putting in mountain ranges and the question of wether or not plate tectonics was involved was irrelevant to the process.You honestly think that the people drawing Golarion's maps were placing tectonic plates and simulating mountain formation based on plate tectonics?Presumably the people who drew the maps looked at real mountain ranges and copied them, with some artistic license. By doing so, they either (a) are fobbing them off as being "realistic" (i.e., geologically formed), or (b) are setting up a trickster deity scenario as outlined, if they then turn around and claim no tectonics exist.
Ding. We have a winner!
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OK, we are talking about a universe where gods actually exist. So...
Write whatever backstory you want.
Back to the topic at hand, I'm surprised we got to page 3. This is clearly a hot issue for a lot of people.
I really want to encourage people to try to live within the rules. Think of it as a stage that one goes throug in one's evolution as a player.
The OP does seem to imply that there will be trouble with more than just Teleport spells. It sounds like the foray from the "E6" style of play into the world of high power magic is jarring for him.
My advice overall would be to read a few high-level modules and see if the play style implied works for his table. If not, then he will either need to cap levels like E6 or will need to do a great deal of work eliminating powerful abilities and spells from his game.
Good luck to him in either case.
1. But given that you're talking about movement that's on the scale of a foot per human lifetime, it's rather extreme to ask to apply it's change on short term time basis characters operate in. For all practical purposes, on the scales we operate in, it doesn't happen.
2. I will repeat myself until I'm blue in the face, D20 and it's descendants were not designed to be simulationist games on that level of granularity. We're doing action/adventure, not National Geographic.
1. We're comparing plates (~10^-9 mph) to ships (~10^1 mph) to teleportation (100 miles instantaneously; call it speed of light, or slightly less than 10^9 mph). Ship speed is as different from teleportation as it is from tectonic motion. Semi-diurnal earth tides from gravity would be ~10^-6, or closer to ship speed than ship speed is to teleportation.
2. This is a solid point that I can totally get behind.
1. The thing is everything else save plate tectonics has effects that are measurable and meaningful within the time scales we normally operate in. To shorehorn it in a gaming discussion for anything other than large scale past backgrounds is being pedantic.
Teleportation is as far from meaningful human travel speed as is tectonics. That's not pedantic; that's math.
The whole point here is that if we're ignoring other movement by hand-waving "it's magic," let's do the same for teleportation. You don't want people teleporting onto ships? Then hand-wave it -- "it's magic; that's why not." Insisting on a "realistic" explanation there and defaulting to miracles everywhere else makes no sense at all.
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Teleportation spells somehow cope with teleporting people into a spot with moving air - does the air get pushed aside, does it switch places with the teleportee, is it simply annihilated?
Also, teleportation spells are capable of moving an object with moving parts (blood circulation) without internal disruption.
Teleportation spells can somehow figure out whether the teleportee is being moved to a spot that will support them.
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Teleportation is able to cope with all those inconveniences. I don't think it's odd to include tectonic movements and earth tides in that list. Those movements are probably fairly slow and predictable, enough that the spell can compensate.
It is indeed a matter of arbitrary cutoff point. Apparently a moving ship is just too much. The cutoff point has to be somewhere...
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Regarding the existence of tectonics on Golarion: I wouldn't want to assume their existence. There are fish capable of pulling meteors onto a collision course with the planet (Earthfall). There are gods. There are Darklands, which are rather unusual on Earth.
Do we even have a figure on how old Golarion is as a planet? Is it possible that it's less than 20,000 years old? Created by a couple of gods, who saw mountains on another planet, and liked them? So without bothering to study tectonics, they just created their own mountains, but with new and interesting features, such as multiple-level Darklands.
Gods might set about creating a world in a manner comparable to a GM. Some GMs just draw a map that appeals to them aesthetically. Others use an algorithm to generate a map that looks like tectonics were involved, without actually simulating real tectonics. And some actually program a real tectonics simulator. And some imprison a Rovagug beneath the earth and watch how its struggles push around continents.
Can we tell what kind of world Golarion is? I don't think we have the information yet.
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I keep thinking that if you really don't like scry'n'fry tactics, just set the baddies up in a place under Forbiddance Saves resources in spellcasting, AND you don't even need to have the caster still around to keep it up. Imagine a forgotten keep that was once defended against ambushes from teleporters, but is now disheveled and used by your main villain. On top of that, you give your players a good whack before an encounter even hits.That's valid, but I also don't want to have to use magic to defeat magic under every circumstance.
I prefer a world in which mudane materials will block teleportation and scrying if they cannot find an entry way.
In the series "The Chronicles of Amber" they had characters who could walk the planes of existence.
In one plane there was this weird blue stone that blocked the ability.
My gaming group from years ago used that trope. We decided that there was this "blue flecked stone" that blocked planar access (including teleport and ethereal travel). This material was coveted and expensive, but it meant that you could have old ruins made of the stuff. You could also have bad guys build stuff out of it and not even know it's properties. As a naturally occurring material, whole cave systems could be made of the stuff.
So here is a "nerf" that's a change in the campaign world instead of the rules.
Hope that helps.
That's exactly what I've done, except instead of exoitic materials it's 5ft of earth, 1ft of stone, 1 in of metal, or a thin layer of lead. No exotic materials. It's cheap, open to everybody. Thats the way I want my world. And there is no difference between my campaign rules and the base game rules if I intend to run every game the same. Talking about "nerfing a campaign world" instead of "nerfing the rules" is silly if I intend to do it whenever I GM.
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In my experience, by the time a high level encounter starts going badly someone is already dead.Meh, just bring them back to life when the combat's over.
This actually is probably a splinter thread, but what do you do with the players while there characters are dead. I've always found one of the best ways to ruin a gamers night is to kill/incapacitate there character. It isn't so much the death of a beloved character that is bad, since they know they can come back. It is the disconnection from participation while the rest of the table is having fun.
but I digress
In my experience, by the time a high level encounter starts going badly someone is already dead.Meh, just bring them back to life when the combat's over.This actually is probably a splinter thread, but what do you do with the players while there characters are dead. I've always found one of the best ways to ruin a gamers night is to kill/incapacitate there character. It isn't so much the death of a beloved character that is bad, since they know they can come back. It is the disconnection from participation while the rest of the table is having fun.
but I digress
It only takes 1 minute to cast Raise Dead or Resurrection. They shouldn't be down for much longer than that single combat.
Might be a bit of a problem if it's the cleric that went down. :)It only takes 1 minute to cast Raise Dead or Resurrection. They shouldn't be down for much longer than that single combat.In my experience, by the time a high level encounter starts going badly someone is already dead.Meh, just bring them back to life when the combat's over.This actually is probably a splinter thread, but what do you do with the players while there characters are dead. I've always found one of the best ways to ruin a gamers night is to kill/incapacitate there character. It isn't so much the death of a beloved character that is bad, since they know they can come back. It is the disconnection from participation while the rest of the table is having fun.
but I digress
It should be on a scroll. That's what Use Magic Device is for. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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1. We're comparing plates (~10^-9 mph) to ships (~10^1 mph) to teleportation (100 miles instantaneously; call it speed of light, or slightly less than 10^9 mph). Ship speed is as different from teleportation as it is from tectonic motion. Semi-diurnal earth tides from gravity would be ~10^-6, or closer to ship speed than ship speed is to teleportation.
I don't think anyone is worried about ship motion on the time scale of the actual teleportation motion, if there even is any. (I don't think interplanetary teleport takes hours to get to the outer planets, whereas light would) It's more the motion during the 3 second casting time and targetting of the spell - the argument is that it's tough to clearly and accurately visualize a target that is in motion on a noticable human scale.
In other words, it's not that the target moves away after you start teleporting, it's that you target the wrong place because your target is moving.
Presumably, then, IPT is 9th level because it does that for you? I could kind of see that.
But you can teleport onto a moving ship so long as you can scry it and immediately cast teleport. So the casting time doesn't seem to be too much to get there.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.
It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.
Having majored in geology is relevant to people who don't use Golarion? Please explain.
Having majored in geology is relevant to people who don't use Golarion? Please explain.It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.
You keep saying 'In Golarion, gods did this'.
If I'm not using Golarion, then that answer is irrelevant, and thus, discussions of planetary movement and tectonic activity is relevant.
Having majored in geology is relevant to people who don't use Golarion? Please explain.It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.You keep saying 'In Golarion, gods did this'.
If I'm not using Golarion, then that answer is irrelevant, and thus, discussions of planetary movement and tectonic activity is relevant.
The post you quoted said nothing at all about gods.
The post you quoted said nothing at all about gods.Having majored in geology is relevant to people who don't use Golarion? Please explain.It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.You keep saying 'In Golarion, gods did this'.
If I'm not using Golarion, then that answer is irrelevant, and thus, discussions of planetary movement and tectonic activity is relevant.
The part I quoted was 'None of that is relevant to Golarion', which is precisely what I was responding to, and the reason why I only quoted that part of the post.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
The post you quoted said nothing at all about gods.Having majored in geology is relevant to people who don't use Golarion? Please explain.It is, however, to the many people who don't use Golarion.
None of that is relevant to Galorion.You keep saying 'In Golarion, gods did this'.
If I'm not using Golarion, then that answer is irrelevant, and thus, discussions of planetary movement and tectonic activity is relevant.The part I quoted was 'None of that is relevant to Golarion', which is precisely what I was responding to, and the reason why I only quoted that part of the post.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
You were taking part of a post that stated only that the study of geological process as they happen in reality on earth wasn't relevant to Golarion. Which is true.
Don't know why you responded to it like it meant something else.
On the main topic, this honestly just seems like a setting thing to me, like all the games out there that ban guns and gunslingers, mostly it just comes down to taste.
Me personally, I see the use in both. It may be tense I'm some circumstances to use teleport to extract the team in a bad situation, but there's also something to be said for the party physically running, barring doors behind them, throwing caltrops, setting traps, and having to stay one step ahead of enemy the entire time.
I'd argue that neither of these is better so much as different. Me personally, I like to require a focus be present, like a linked pair of mirrors be used to teleport from one to the other. Makes escape fairly easy so long as you've got your mirror handy, but a lot harder to use offensively. At the least, it keeps the rogue in business, sneaking in the mirror. And if he gets caught on this solo run? Well he's got the mirror and the wizard's scrying him so a party's worth of reinforcements are just a hop away.
Using a portal type of teleport also changes the mechanics a bit. I the that the portal stays open for until the caster either steps through the portal, loses concentration, our falls unconscious/dies, unless the mirror is destroyed in this time, and up to his or her caster level in rounds. Meaning parties can get a lot more through the teleport (like the loot cart), but unless they're diligent in stopping it, enemies may be able to chase them through the portal to keep up the fight. Heck, a 20th level mage can transfer in close to an army if they're unopposed.
But again, these are my preferences, not something inherently better or worse, just a different way of handling it. In some ways, it's not nearly as powerful, in others, it far outstrips the normal power level. But in the end, all of the mentioned methods create different strategies and scenarios, hard for me to call one inherently better.
In my game there is a sort of in between planes world that people pass through when teleporting. And spell casters in the past who have failed in their use of the teleport (and other types of spells) are stuck in this in-between-world. Essentially they are stuck in limbo, their bodies are warped into monstrous forms over time due to the nature of the place also. These limbo spell casters desperately want to return back to their native plane, but have trouble doing so. Whenever they come across a party being teleported, (the pcs) these limbo casters will attack. They want to take their place and be the ones to teleport back to their homes instead of the pcs.
I'm doing this to ensure that the pcs will have encounters to go through even if they teleport hundreds of miles past dangerous terrain or something. Also it will make them think twice before teleporting away from a dangerous encounter. Who's to say that the limbo casters will be a safer fight than the boss they are against right now?
Feel free to use this idea if you wish. I've found it to be a good enough solution.
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Domestic: it sounds a bit severe to use for all teleportation, but it's an interesting idea.
My personal preference is to limit teleporation to 12 miles (1 hex), along with nearly all other long-distance magic. Exceptions:
* Pass Through Plants. It cannot pass through or under running water, although if there's a path around it it will work.
* Dream spells are the only long-distance communication method.
* Shadow Walk, but the shadow plane is not safe.
* Plane Shift: very restricted. You can't just move to any plane you like, just to specific points on specific planes that are "close" to your current location. But the scale of planes varies, so you could use it to take a shortcut through a world that's mapped to your own in a weird way.
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Another thought. What if teleportation didn't bring along active spell effects? You arrive without buffs. Ongoing spells catch up after a few hours, so you can't use this to escape curses.
In my game there is a sort of in between planes world that people pass through when teleporting.Not just in your game -- that's the RAW.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
In my game there is a sort of in between planes world that people pass through when teleporting.Not just in your game -- that's the RAW.Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.
Huh, did not know that.
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You're a geologist, Kirth? Do you share my inability to look at a dormant volcano without wincing? Because - seriously - one course in vulcanology and I can't stop hearing a... ticking...
Dude, an adventure with a dormant volcano that doesn't have a major eruption is a horrible waste of time.
Back to the OP. I generally find that teleport is no biggie if you actually enforce the restrictions and aren't intentionally gaming the system with teleport boots on enlarged animal companions, etc.
Sure you get teleport at 9th level but ... lets look at the restrictions...
1. objects weight can't exceed your max load. Since strength is a dump stat for wizards this usually means transport of goods is limited.
2. bring along 1 med or small creature per 3 caster levels so party of 4 at 9th level. You better hope no one has any animal companions or cohorts let alone large or huge companions. Most parties will need a 12th or 15th level caster to take everyone. IF you have a ranger with a medium companion and a druid with a huge companion you will need to be 24th level.
3. You have to have at least seen a place once to teleport there and then there is a chance you end up somewhere else unless you know the place well. This makes teleport great for going home but much less useful for starting your journey.
4. You can even take some damage although not really a big deal unless you are teleporting hirelings or local commoners or something but it is enough to keep low level NPC's from loving the idea.
and if your players are really smart and plan things out and make it work...let them they worked for it.
Greater teleport 13th level
1. Takes away most of the restrictions but you still need a reliable description of your destination and if it is not good enough nothing happens. This is just vague enough that a GM can do whatever they want with it.
2. By the time you are casting 7th level spells the game has changed and although the PC's can do more so can the NPC's and BBG's. Forbiddance, teleport trap, anti-magic fields, wild magic, non-arcane countermeasures like leaded paint and glass, BBG's with the time and money do do stuff like design a compound with teleport in mind are all in play.
Teleport circle 17th level: By the time you are casting 9th level spells I as a GM expect you to be doing awesome things so this really isn't an issue in a game where wish and plane shift are in play.
My problem with teleport is more on the DM side. Why doesn't a scheming uber villain the PCs have been harassing use scry and teleport to pound the PC's while they are asleep? As a DM I can easily TPK with this tactic because very few groups I have gamed with are paranoid enough to protect themselves while sleeping. Rope trick is sometimes used, but not all that often.
I think one maybe even two scry, port, and capture sessions should put some fear of teleport in their veins. Always remember what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
This is no problem. You should do this. If a party is doing this to the bad guys then the BBEG should be doing it to the party.
I personally don't allow scry and fry for many reasons discussed on many threads but mainly I don't think it allows you to be familiar enough with an area but if you let your players do it you should do it too.
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I tried that once, and found that the game turned into an ongoing stuggle for better divinations and transportation blocking/enabling, and that no one else really had anything to do 90% of the time. Eventually I went for almost the exact same solution that Claxon did, which also has the advantage of explaining why there are anachronous castles and dungeons all over the place.
My problem with teleport is more on the DM side. Why doesn't a scheming uber villain the PCs have been harassing use scry and teleport to pound the PC's while they are asleep? As a DM I can easily TPK with this tactic because very few groups I have gamed with are paranoid enough to protect themselves while sleeping. Rope trick is sometimes used, but not all that often.
I think one maybe even two scry, port, and capture sessions should put some fear of teleport in their veins. Always remember what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
This is no problem. You should do this. If a party is doing this to the bad guys then the BBEG should be doing it to the party.
I personally don't allow scry and fry for many reasons discussed on many threads but mainly I don't think it allows you to be familiar enough with an area but if you let your players do it you should do it too.
I think this was answered pretty well on page 1 of this thread. Typically the BBEG is busy trying to rule the world and doesn't automatically know who or what has been giving his lieutenant's underling's cousin problems on the first three levels of the dungeon. And by the time he does know who the party is and how to scry them, they should have some bonafides to survive that encounter (hopefully).
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I tried that once, and found that the game turned into an ongoing stuggle for better divinations and transportation blocking/enabling, and that no one else really had anything to do 90% of the time. Eventually I went for almost the exact same solution that Claxon did, which also has the advantage of explaining why there are anachronous castles and dungeons all over the place.
It really is elegant in that it makes the world more consistent with itself. And it retains the utility of these spells for rapid transport.
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My problem with teleport is more on the DM side. Why doesn't a scheming uber villain the PCs have been harassing use scry and teleport to pound the PC's while they are asleep? As a DM I can easily TPK with this tactic...Yeah, the players feel like they're real clever when they pull this (even though it's not exactly a genius-level tactic), and feel really enraged when it's pulled on them (even though it's not exactly a genius-level tactic.) In world-building, I usually assert that nations in the game have treaties prohibiting scry-and-die during warfare for much the same reason that real nations refrain from assassination or nuclear options. Things get really, really ugly. Even if you can shield yourself, do you know where your family is?
That's a very interesting idea. You might be able to build an interesting adventure about trying to capture a "war criminal" who did this. And subliminally you could condition your players.
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Maybe I just like setting building more than adventure writing, but trying to figure out how all the various cultures can survive against high level magic and monsters is what made me good as a GM. I totally see the appeal of E6 or E8 games where magic over 3rd or 4th level simply doesn't exist and history is a better guide than Star Trek. I also see the appeal of the higher levels where you are playing characters closer to superheroes than soldiers. I like the high levels, but I would rather not play them at all under a GM uncomfortable around high level magic than see high level magic nerfed.
I tried that once, and found that the game turned into an ongoing stuggle for better divinations and transportation blocking/enabling, and that no one else really had anything to do 90% of the time. Eventually I went for almost the exact same solution that Claxon did, which also has the advantage of explaining why there are anachronous castles and dungeons all over the place.
If I'm being honest Kirth, I'm pretty sure I got the idea from you.
That's OK, I may have gotten it from Frank Trollman. Pay it forward!
Divinations, too. I ran a campaign once in which, by 9th level or so, use of divinations had eclipsed the rest of the action. At one point, I think the PCs were blackmailing the villain using a document that no longer existed.