Can the open/close cantrip be used to open a trap door or secret door that is usually operated by a switch or lever? The door is not locked.
I can see both sides of this and therefore would like some community input.
Thanks!
As long as you know how to open or close the door whether it be by a doorknob, pull handle, switch or lever, it should be doable with this spell. For a door that you don't know how to open i.e. you haven't found the switch to open it, I would consider it locked until you figure out how to open it.
The trap door has to weight 30 lbs or less or it's too heavy for the cantrip to open.
As long as you know how to open or close the door whether it be by a doorknob, pull handle, switch or lever, it should be doable with this spell. For a door that you don't know how to open i.e. you haven't found the switch to open it, I would consider it locked until you figure out how to open it.
It's interesting that you make that distinction. The scenario where it came up involved the party finding the "escape" side of a secret door. I allowed them to use the spell to open it but I'm not sure i want to set that precedent. On the other hand I must agree that there is no lock.
I might rule that switches and levers count as locks because, while they do not require a key to use, they do hold the door shut until activated. Open/close specifically says if the door encounters any resistance that the spell fails.
Any other ideas?
Isn't that what the cantrip is for ? Turning the doornob for you ? If it's just a matter of the latch being inaccessible but not locked then that's the situation this cantrip was designed for.
Isn't that what the cantrip is for ? Turning the doornob for you ? If it's just a matter of the latch being inaccessible but not locked then that's the situation this cantrip was designed for.
Yea, that's why I'm still up in the air on it. Something about not being able to see the "knob" bothers me. Maybe I should just let it go... That's what the spell is for.
If you can see the knob/lever/button, you might as well use mage hand.
There'd be no use for open/close if it only did the same as (or less than) mage hand. So it ought to work with hidden mechanisms.
If you can see the knob/lever/button, you might as well use mage hand.
There'd be no use for open/close if it only did the same as (or less than) mage hand. So it ought to work with hidden mechanisms.
I think the 'telekinesis' effect of Open/Close should be flexible to let you turn obvious knobs, or undo simple locks/bars from which you have line of sight to and know how to operate when you open the door, as much as it lets you flip an unlocked latch and open a container with one casting. But, if you don't have line of sight to the locking mechanism, or you don't know how to operate the mechanism, then nope. I mean, if Open/Close could operate hidden levers and knobs for me it would then also let me undo a locked door from the outside then.
What would that make Knock then?
Open/close has two conditions that prevent it from working. First is a weight limit of 30 pounds or less. Second is that nothing can be causing the object to resist it. Could a person next to the trap door pull it up without using the lever? If the lever is geared that the only way to open it is to use the lever, that would be considered something resisting.
So assuming the trap door is weighs 30 pounds or less and can be opened by someone pulling it up the spell should have no problem. If either of these conditions are false the spell will not work.
The saving throw is listed as (object) This means it gets a saving throw if the object is magical, or attended (held, or grasped) by a creature resisting the spell. So if the trap door were magical, or being held shut by a creature the saving throw would need to be made.
The 30 pound limit is rather unclear. If you're opening a chest, are you interested in the weight of the chest or the weight of the lid? Or the force required to lift the lid?
And I bet all of the doors in my house (and probably in yours) also weigh more than 30 pounds. A door is quite a lump of wood. And that's just a thin modern internal door, not the inch-thick planks of mediaeval oak you'd expect to find in most PF settings.
When it comes to secret doors… it depends entirely on their mechanisms… technically speaking most secret doors are locked even if there is not a physical key lock. A lever operated door is locked as long as the lever is flipped in the closed direction. A secret door with a hidden switch is locked until the switch is flipped. A hidden door that can simply be pushed or pulled open once found is not locked…
This is why detect secret doors/passages grants you knowledge on how to open the door, and why knock specifically states it opens secret doors. Open/close can’t open any doors that you couldn’t simply open by hand. If the door has any special mechanisms that must be operated before the door can be opened and are not part of standard door design, then the door is in fact locked. Basically, those special mechanisms are a non-standard lock. A lever is just a lock that still has the key in it.
With regards to doors with hidden mechanisms to open it, I would say if you don't know how the mechanism functions it is effectively a lock and the spell fails. If you do know how it opens then it's just a doorknob or a different shape.
So what matters (to me) is the knowledge of operation.
As to the weight limit, I'm going to say it applies to the amount of force (pound force is a unit) that the spell can apply. As long as it wouldn't take more force than that to operate the relevant part then the spell would work. So a heavy door (that weighs more than 30 lb) is fine because it doesn't take 30 lb of force to get it to move on its hinge.
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I've had a friend of mine gloat and boasting for half an hour straight, because his Psychic had cast Open(/Close) on a closed (not locked) door as a swift action using Quicken Spell, move past it, and then cast a spell on the bad guy who was otherwise going to fly away next turn.
Indeed, without Open/Close, he wouldn't have had line of sight to the target, and the use of Open/Close indeed gave him enough actions to change the outcome of the fight. Now, how many times would this happen again? How many other times the combined choices of your allies and GM will amount to you finding youself one closed door away from changing the fate of a fight? Likely, none.
I think this is the overall scope of Open/Close and similar situational cantrips: they exist to give you bragging rights if you manage to make them work that one time you really need them, not really to be used to systematically circumvent challenges.
