Okay, so I've never been fond of the way natural attacks are completely independent of iterative attacks even if all you attempt are your natural attacks.
Sure, at lower levels the catfolk with claws gets two attacks where as the fighter with a sword gets only one. However, at level 20 where the fighter is getting 5 (or more with TWF), the catfolk who wants to use her claws still only gets two attacks.
So, I've always house ruled that claws can be treated as light slashing weapons.
However, many people think this house rule is a bad idea.
So, the reason for this thread is... assuming a campaign is not going to end prior to a certain level, why bother with claws/etc at all? Why not plan for the future when they will become worthless by not taking them in the first place and spending your feats to maximize manufactured weapons?
So, my idea for a character I REALLY want to play as a natural weapons character, she's a Fanglord (weretiger-kin skinwalker) antipaladin of Calistria. Kinda weird for an antipaladin to use natural attacks, but it's a cool idea i think, plus the unorthodox nature would help to illustrate to me why the natural attacks are worth having (or not.)
So far first level I have her stats as follows...
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 11
CHA 16
Will need to spend some of her level up stat points to raise her WIS to 14 to get all her spell levels. In the mean time though, her 1st level feat is 'Extra Feature' so that she can shapeshift her bite AND the claws at the same time. Possibly may or may not take it twice more to be able to fully shift all 4 abilities.
So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW.
Man if you were going for a Barbarian we could get up to some ridiculousness.
I'd swap your Str and Dex for one. Natural Attacks are light weapons so that +1 Str to damage means more in the long run since you're only getting 1/2 Power Attack damage and such.
So 20 PB:
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 12 (I'm always wary of less than 12 and prefer 14...remember you can't heal yourself like a real Paladin)
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Then in Were form you're at 16 14 12 10 10 16.
That Con though. Yeesh.
Anywho, Extra Feature at 1st level ain't a bad option, since it's essentially Aspect of the Beast with more flexibility for you.
So you'll be at 2 claws and a bite at +4 to-hit each, for 1d6+2d4+9, not terribly shabby.
Try and get a Conductive Amulet of Mighty Fists at some point, share the pain.
If you're really feeling saucy go ahead and dump Int for little penalty and shore up that nasty Con and add another point to Wis.
Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore later. So now you've got 4 attacks, good deal.
So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW.
Claw attacks are generally the least useful for humanoid PC classed folk… but, only because they use the same appendages as manufactured weapons.
Almost every other natural attack is good, though. Say you have a bite attack, for example. When you full attack, you hit with all your normal melee attacks, and can follow it up with an extra bite attack (with a penalty).
Free attacks are good.
Claws don't generally benefit from that (slams too, I think), because they use your hands, which are busy slashing people with swords n whatnot.
But, perk of claw attacks? They’re always there.
Edit: Oh, and... even if you had 20 different natural attacks, you could theoretically use them all in a full attack. And you don't have that iterative penalty pattern. They're either full bab or full bab-5 (or -2). So... Nat attacks have a higher degree of accuracy if you have a lot of them, as compared to a full attack with a 20 bab, sure you got lots of attacks... but those last couple probably aren’t hitting anything.
For shiggles, look what you could be having as a Barbarian.
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14 [16]
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 5
Ragebred Skinwalker.
Extra Feature at 1st level.
2 hooves and a Gore, basically same damage as your Antipaladin.
Lesser Beast Totem at 2nd level. 2 Claws, 2 Hooves, and a Gore.
Animal Fury at 4th level. 2 claws, 2 hooves, a gore, and a bite.
Hell, feel like taking a penalty on all those? Snag Improved Unarmed Strike (via Monk or Feat, whichever) and TWFing.
2 unarmed strikes, 2 claws, 2 hooves, a gore , and a bite. Or really, by the time you get it, 3 unarmed strikes (one iterative, one from TWFing) So a total of 9 attacks.
Suuuuuuweeeet.
If you're really feeling saucy go ahead and dump Int for little penalty and shore up that nasty Con and add another point to Wis.
Yeah, this. You'll be very happy to have a 14 con instead of 12. Might seem minor... but it isn't. You're a melee fighter type, you needs it.
Or Eldritch Claws (Magic and Silver).
So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW.
I am not sure, what you don't like about it:
Compare her to a paladin using a two-handed weapon.
Lvl 1-5:
3 attacks instead of 1.
Same attack bonus.
Lower damage on a single attack.
Lvl 6-10:
3 attacks instead of 2.
Better attack bonus (apart from first greatsword attack).
Lower damage on a single attack.
lvl 11-15:
Same amount of attacks.
Better attack bonus on secondary attack, a lot better on tertiary.
Lower damage per attack.
lvl 16-20:
3 attacks instead of 4.
Better attack bonus on secondary attack, a lot better on tertiary, the extra attack from the two-hander is very low.
Lower damage per attack.
I haven't done a DPR calculation, but as far as I can see, the two options outweigh each other pretty well. Even at the highest levels, the claws+bite have a significantly better to-hit bonus, that makes them a viable option.
Man if you were going for a Barbarian we could get up to some ridiculousness.
I'd swap your Str and Dex for one. Natural Attacks are light weapons so that +1 Str to damage means more in the long run since you're only getting 1/2 Power Attack damage and such.
Minor correction. Secondary natural attacks get 1/2 PA damage. Claws get full PA damage unless used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon or unarmed strike (which, obviously, means the claws are treated as secondary natural weapons).
As for Natural Weapon builds, from what I've looked at (I've never actually played one up to high level, though I'm playing one that's low level right now), they appear to be very high-powered melee builds at low levels. Roughly on par with other melee builds at middle levels. And probably a bit under-powered at high levels.
Obviously, a lot of that depends upon build, too. If you're going with 3+ natural attacks you're doing a lot more damage than you are if your build only has one or two. But yeah, 3 full BAB, full STR, full PA attacks per round will do some damage, even at high levels.
Sure, at lower levels the catfolk with claws gets two attacks where as the fighter with a sword gets only one. However, at level 20 where the fighter is getting 5 (or more with TWF), the catfolk who wants to use her claws still only gets two attacks.
Don't forget you will use your full attack bonus, allowing your Natural attacks to hit more often. This can be really helpful for Rogues, melee Alchemists or Shapechanging Magi, who only got a medium Bab.
On the higher lvls, you might consider feats like Dazing Assault, which give a high attack penalty.If you keep buying magic items like the Cloak of the Manta Ray or the Helm of the Mammoth Lord, you can easily gain more attacks.
Sadly the Antipaladin isn't the best class for such builds. Barbarians and Alchemists have more Class features to add ntural attacks.
Last but not least: Don't foget you can get acess to Style Feats and use them via Feral Combat Training. Classic-non-nerfed Crane Style will make you really hard to kill, since you have one hand free.
Cool, thanks everyone and as for the reason her Str is 14 and her Dex is 16, that's cause a big part of it is I just am not a fan of full plate, not to mention part of the concept is that she's an antipaladin because that best fits her passions and very evil streak vengeful nature, not cause she wants to be some champion of evil in full plate. She's stealthy and a big roguish in that if you slight her so she's going to decide to kill you, you might not see her coming.
As for the antipaladin being not optimal, that's part of why I wanted the advice on it. I'm not a player that cares about optimal fighting over roleplay. I do however not want a character that will be worthless in combat vs. her peers at higher level. Looks like a lot of what you guys have said tells me that even if it's not optimal for her to be a dex build natural attacks anti-paladin, it works.
Then as for the rest of the stats, as a fanglord she gets +2 Dex, -2 Wis so having her Wis a bit higher to compensate that penalty yet still be viable as an antipaladin is hard then to find the points to have a high Con too. Originally I had her Str lower but then when I realized that if she wasn't able to use Dervish Dance to add dex to damage since she's not using a scimitar, the higher Str for damage would be a good idea
EDIT: Okay, as Rynjin suggested I dropped her Int to 10 and put her Con up to 12. Don't want to drop her Int lower than 10 simply cause I DO want her to have some skills, and with an Int of 10 she's only got 2 (+1 favored class)
Hmm then looking at the style feats... Tiger or Panther are kind of cool, plus fit her concept thematically. Then how exactly would blade boots play into a natural attack chain, or could they?
Yeah, the general logic is that you usually go with natural attacks when you get 1 more attack than you would iteratives. That usually keeps you ahead as far as damage goes. At least for builds like a barbarian's, which just use straight strength. Rogues might enjoy a good claw/claw/bite anyway due to a very sizable bonus on each attack and their usually attack bonus means it works better than a simple iterative and just as well as TWF for them.
Another interesting though for a catfolk: going monk and taking feral combat training. This is interesting because this path allows them to use their claws for flurry, essentially treating them like light weapons (just as you tend to do). But they are still claws, and claw pounce doesn't have the kind of language that differentiates. And flurries are the kind of full round attack that can go with pounces.....
Hmm then looking at the style feats... Tiger or Panther are kind of cool, plus fit her concept thematically. Then how exactly would blade boots play into a natural attack chain, or could they?
They could....but they do so very, very horribly. Mixing natural and manufactured attacks turns all natural attacks into secondary ones. That is -5 to hit and 1/2 strength and power attack damage. Even with multiattack, they are all basically as weak as offhand weapon attacks in TWF. Only a rogue could take advantage of that...and it still would not be pretty since you are going to the trouble of getting natural attacks and yet still dealing with that TWF stuff.
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Mathematically the 3 default natural attacks all behind iterative attack using characters around level 11 when the number of attacks are equal but the manufactured weapons benefit from greater & cheaper enchantment options and higher attack bonuses.
The DPR calculations have repeatedly shown this, HOWEVER if you add a single additional natural attack (Gore, tentacle, Sting, etc) that difference disappears and Natural attacks return to being a superior option.
If you intend to go forward with this build plan on acquiring one of several magic items that grant you an additional attack type (most likely a Helm of the Mammoth Lord since it uses a slot most Natural Weapon Wielders don't strictly need.
Do this and watch every other martial type (except Archers) cry at your damage and effectiveness.
Just curious, but shouldn't a natural weapon get iterative attacks if its your primary weapon (and is treated as such based on the method you gain it from)?
Where under natural weapons does it state that don't get iterative attacks from bab?
[Edit] never mind, I found it. I was looking in the wrong book. (I was under universal monster rules instead of core rulebook)
There is one exception to the no iteratives for natural weapons rule.
If an animal companion (or eidolon, I believe) has fewer than 3 natural attacks, when that AC earns multiattack based on the PC's level advancement, the AC gets one more attack at -5 BAB for one of the weapons.
But that doesn't apply here, obviously.
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AbsolutGrndZer0, "So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW."
Oh, I do! For a character that does maximum melee damage, I choose natural attacks over any manufactured weapon. I like to take a few levels of this and that. I haven't exactly figured out how to do it with Antipaladin because I was working within Pathfinder Society, which doesn't allow that. But I can share what I worked out.
High-Damage Natural Weapon Build
If you take some levels in Monk, and you take the feat Feral Combat Training, your natural weapon gains all the benefits of Monk Unarmed Strikes, which includes iterative attacks, Flurry of Blows, and Monk Unarmed Damage.
If you take Monastic Legacy, 1/2 your monk levels count as monk levels for the purposes of unarmed damage.
If you take the Monster Feat Improved Natural Weapon, your natural attacks do damage as if you were one size bigger. A PFS character can only take INW via taking levels in Ranger. It's not a bad idea, anyway, because even 1 level in Ranger lets you use wands with Ranger Spells.
I like
Lead Blades, which lets your weapons (including Monk Weapons, and if you took Feral Combat Training, Natural Weapons) inflict damage as if you were 1 size bigger. Strong Jaw, a level 3 spell, lets your natural attacks inflict damage as if you were 2 sizes bigger. These don't stack with each other, but either of these stacks with the other stuff.
Lockjaw, which gives you the Grab ability. For each claw, snout, or tentacle, or whatever you enchant with this lets you Grapple as a Free Action. If you have Armor Spikes, you inflict an extra 1d6 damage + whatever bonuses. You can release a grappled opponent as a free action, or you can prosecute the grapple.
And there's Magic Fang, Bull Strength, and Cat's Grace of course.
If your natural weapon is claws, you can take Rending Claws: +1d6 damage if 2 claws hit....
There are a couple of illegal/incorrect statements in this post that need to be cleared up.
First, Feral Combat Training only works on one of your natural attacks and you can't take it more than once. It's a net decrease in power for this poster.Second, Lead Blades don't work on natural attacks, ever. It is specifically called out as denying it so forget this option.
Improved Natural Weapons is strictly a DM call on whether you can have it (unless you are playing one specific type of Ranger AND taking 10 levels in it) so counting on this is suspect at best. Also it only really gives you 1 additional point of damage per attack so rarely worth it.
Should this thread be in advice or houserules?
Advice because it's about how to do it by the rules, not about a house rule to change the rules.
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but an Antipaladin's spells are powered by their Charisma, so you don't need to boost her Wisdom.
i have generally found that natural weapons are a stringer option for medium bab classes thatdo not have special full attack options.
for these classes using natural weapons can make power attack a more attractive option since you are not suffering the decreases you would normally have with other full attack options especially when compare to say two weapon fighting.
that said having a few non hand natural attacks can be nice for full bab classes as others here have said.
I think most everyone here has stated in one form or another the things I am about to summarize:
1. Monks without flurry (trading it for an archetype) benefit the most from natural attacks.
- They can add it onto their attack routine for a -2 to hit with multiattack, and don't have to worry about having hands/claws free
- It scales with their unarmed strike damage with feral combat training
- It makes up for the loss of full BaB flurry with multiple attacks at slightly reduced BaB
*Exceptions can be made for forms with natural attacks that deal damage far above a monks eventual 2d10/4d8 with enlarged person. Carnivorous crystal ooze's 7d8 and the Behemoth Hippo 4d8 are the only ones that come to mind at the moment. Then you want feral combat training so that you can flurry with a 7d8 slam attack.
2. You want as many of the same type of natural attack as possible. This is usually claw.
- While I do think the Allosaurus has the edge on the Dire Tiger at higher levels due to unarmed strike size scaling, at mid levels, the Dire Tiger has 4 claw attacks on a pounce (the giant octopus has 8 tentacle attacks, there is something to think of there, but the lack of air breathing is problematic), which can all be boosted with dragon style and feral combat training.
A Catfolk monk with the Nimble Guardian archetype can become one of these 4 high BaB attacking monstrosities at lvl 9 (when you get pounce and rake), which is, afaik, one of the only ways to pull these shennanigans as a pure monk.
3. If you can, get druid levels. Druids are the best at enhancing natural attacks (I think summoners come close, but there is no stat synergy and synthesists are problematic), and indeed are also one of the best classes (the others being ranger and barbarian) at providing natural attacks.
prototype00
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AbsolutGrndZer0, "So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW."
You mis-understood a few of the things posted here, I may not have been clear enough in what I wrote though.
Oh, I really think that the one natural attack I would be taking Feral Combat Training for is my 2 claws. Let’s look at the Froghemoth. The Froghemoth has sever natural attacks. It has 1 tongue, 1 bite, and 4 tentacles. Froghemoths have the Multiattack Feat, so they can just use all their attacks with little problem, but let’s suppose there was one that didn’t. This young and inexperienced froghemoth has to choose one among his many natural attacks or suffer serious penalties. He can use his tongue at no penalty, his bite at no penalty, or his 4 tentacles at no penalty. The 4 tentacles are 1 attack. It still has to make 4 attack rolls, and can use only 1 tentacle in an attack of opportunity, but generally, the tentacles work together.No FCT will let you use it for both claws, I said natural attack not natural weapon. Attack is a type not a single specific natural weapon.
I brought it up as a habit since this subject always gets missed when folks try to build monks with natural attacks.
> Second, Lead Blades don't work on natural attacks, ever. It is specifically called out as denying it so forget this option.
Really? Could you site the errata and/or FAQ that disqualifies Lead Blades from working on Monk Unarmed Strikes?
“Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.”
I bolded the important section there for you. You can't carry a natural weapon those are permanently wielded. Carried is a term for manufactured weapons you have on yeah. Do a simple forum search for it you'll see and there is a dev post on the spell confirming that interpretation.
If you want that effect you'll need a strong jaw enchant) also,
Nevertheless, I do believe as you do that this spell was intended to modify manufactured weapons, not unarmed strikes nor natural weapons. But remember, it was my intention to take Feral Combat Training. Which would allow (at least 1) claw to be treated like a Monk’s Unarmed Strike, and
“A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.”
[http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#_monk]Monk Unarmed Strikes[/URL]You have misread the Feral Combat feat, it doesn't natural attacks like a monks unarmed strike. It only allows feats and effects that work on unarmed strikes to work on natural attacks. It DOES NOT change them into anything else. They are still natural attacks and follow any prohibitions that the rules have for them.
As for the ranger misinterpretation you are contradicting established rules there. The combat style only grants multi-attack as an allowable feat at 10th level before that it's not on the list. Just like all class abilities you do not count as having them until you are the level where the class grants it to you. This is why Rogues can't take extra trick until they get their first trick or Magus can't take extra arcana before they hit the level where the class grants them the arcana ability. Only 10th+ level Natural Attack rangers can ever take Multi-Attack.Finally, Improved Natural attack improves your NATURAL ATTACK damage not your unarmed strike damage so it goes from 1D4 (average 2.5 damage) to 1D6 (average 3.5 damage). Remember FCT REPLACES the damage die from natural attacks with the damage die from Unarmed Strike. Improved natural attack upgrades the damage of natural attacks FCT replaces that damage with the monk damage die and the unarmed strikes are invalid choices for Improved Natural Attack so it does nothing for that.
Your damage die stays the same.As for the GM's call there is a standard assumption of "these rules are assumed for everyone unless the GM specifically says no" that the game is based on since it's in writing it works this way. Monster feats however actually comes out and says
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for themcalling out that these are specifically for monsters not average PC's putting them firmly in the hands of the GM to approve.
This game functions under the basic assumption that unless something specifically states you CAN do something then assume you CAN'T do it.You're build as written just doesn't work that way.
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but an Antipaladin's spells are powered by their Charisma, so you don't need to boost her Wisdom.
Oh crap you are right LOL I forgot about that... wait are you sure? Cause in 3.x they were Wis I thought, that's why paladins were so annoying you needed high stats across the board.
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Don't know if it's been mentioned, but an Antipaladin's spells are powered by their Charisma, so you don't need to boost her Wisdom.Oh crap you are right LOL I forgot about that... wait are you sure? Cause in 3.x they were Wis I thought, that's why paladins were so annoying you needed high stats across the board.
That was indeed the case in 3.x, and was indeed annoying. Which would be why Paizo changed it...
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@Scott Wilhelm, if you understand that only 10th level rangers can get Multiattack you didn't put it in your build. You only had 2 levels of Ranger in that and that doesn't fulfil the requirement. (It's not total character levels it's 10 actual ranger class levels).
The dev team is well known for making confusion like this but we have to go by RAW on it and natural weapons just don't work.
As for the Monk attacks welcome to another one of the confusing language issues. Though it says they are treated as both it still doesn't remove the restriction. Like Magic Fang, it looks like it should work on monk fists but if you look at the monk unarmed strike entry it says the spell doesn't work.
As for the gauntlet, Sure you can, it moves your damage to 1D3 (1D4) with lead blades. Remember the gauntlet is a weapon that isn't on the monk list so it defaults down to it's base damage and doesn't get the monk's improved damage. Take a look at the brass knuckles and see how that ruling ruined exactly this argument.
And as I said FCT REPLACES your natural attack damage with the unarmed strike damage, not improves it to it. Anything that affects your natural attacks does nothing for your strike damage. All of those feats and enchants do NOTHING for you. Your damage stays at exactly what you get from Monk, 1D10. No improved nat attacks, no lead blades, no strong jaw, just the base monk damage. Now if you don't use the unarmed strike mod then all of those (except lead blades) will work but that just puts you back where the base monk damage is so no net gain there either.
You really do need to read the feats/spells a bit closer.
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike).
Does NOT affect Unarmed strikes.
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Does NOT give your NA's the benefit of monk training, only lets effects and feats that affect unarmed strikes affect natural attacks and NOT the other way around so things that normally affect natural attacks DON'T work on unarmed strikes.
The issue is YOU have not kept up with the dev rulings on Monk unarmed strikes, they have effectively re-written how this ability works and what affects about 5 times now. Spend some time looking at the various monk threads to see how it currently works and then come back to this idea. You'll see it doesn't actually work.
Actually RAW anyone with 3 natural attacks qualifies for Multiattack. Only in PFS do you need to be a level 10 Ranger with the natural weapons style.
Summoners laugh at your idea of only having a few natural attacks... Summoners laugh at your idea that fighters have more iteratives than Eidolons have natural attacks :P
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Actually RAW anyone with 3 natural attacks qualifies for Multiattack. Only in PFS do you need to be a level 10 Ranger with the natural weapons style.
Well since this is for a PFS character that's a pointless statement and it's flagged as a monster feat so you'll need GM approval in any other setting that's a less then accurate statement.
As for the summoner statement what's your point? The most broken class in the game can do something broken, big deal.
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I feel like I should mention it: Natural attacks are REALLY nice at low levels, or for using unarmed strikes as a non-monk character, or if you have a lot of them. The main benefit of having lots of unarmed attacks is that they don't receive a scaling miss chance with more attacks, which makes them very, VERY consistent. A character with a bite, two claws, and a tertiary attack can get 4 attacks in the same round, all made at full BAB. Kobolds are actually REALLY good at this, and is one of their few redeeming qualities (and one of my favorite ones). Apologies if someone already mentioned this.
Okay, so I've never been fond of the way natural attacks are completely independent of iterative attacks even if all you attempt are your natural attacks.More or less Natural attacks work this way so they dodge penalties for attacking with multiple weapons, but also for balance of creatures that only use natural attacks.
Sure, at lower levels the catfolk with claws gets two attacks where as the fighter with a sword gets only one. However, at level 20 where the fighter is getting 5 (or more with TWF), the catfolk who wants to use her claws still only gets two attacks.She would know this from the start. If she only has two natural attacks then she would eventually "upgrade" to using manufactured weapons. Natural attacks are generally pretty crappy compared anyway, crit on 20 only, most tend to only do 1d4 - 1d6.
So, I've always house ruled that claws can be treated as light slashing weapons.Don't. If you do this then claws gain the penalty of using two manufactured weapons, or -4/-4 without TWF and -2/-2 With TWF. The character is literally better using two daggers when he has 6 bab or more.
However, many people think this house rule is a bad idea.That is because it IS, or to put it more directly: Because that gimps the entire reason people take natural attacks.
So, the reason for this thread is... assuming a campaign is not going to end prior to a certain level, why bother with claws/etc at all? Why not plan for the future when they will become worthless by not taking them in the first place and spending your feats to maximize manufactured weapons?You will eventually "upgrade" to manufactured weapons. Also, you don't need to spend feats on making weapons better, there are FAR better places to put your feats.
So, my idea for a character I REALLY want to play as a natural weapons character, she's a Fanglord (weretiger-kin skinwalker) antipaladin of Calistria. Kinda weird for an antipaladin to use natural attacks, but it's a cool idea i think, plus the unorthodox nature would help to illustrate to me why the natural attacks are worth having (or not.)
For your number of attacks to even out with a TWF build you ~need~ seven attacks, but on top of that you can wear two blade boots and ADD your natural attacks to your TWF build. You could have 14 attacks, 7 bladeboot (-2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17) 7 natural attacks (-5/-5/-5/-5/-5/-5/-5) and make all of them on a full attack.
So my point, I suppose, is to recommend you wear two-blade boots, take the Mother's Bite trait for a bite attack, and use the two claws feature.This will give you
1 bite________-5 (1d2 + 1/2str)
2 claws_______-5 (1d4 + 1/2str)
2 blade boots_-2/-2 (1d4 + str)
With your statistics this would become (with weapon finesse)
1 bite________-1 (1d2 + 1)
2 claws_______-1 (1d4 + 1)
2 blade boots_+1/+1 (1d4 + 2)
So far first level I have her stats as follows...
STR 14
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 11
CHA 16
You're not going to live very long if you are a front line tank with those statistics. It might be worth your time to take a dip in Oracle to get the Bite curse and pick the Lunar mystery to unlock the revelation that lets you add your Cha instead of Dex to AC. With that you can change your point buy to:
STR 15 (16 at 4th)DEX 7(9 with racial)
CON 15 (16 at 8th)
INT 10
WIS 13 (11 with racial)
CHA 15 (17 with racial) (18 at 12th)
This would leave you with
1 bite________-1 (1d2 + 1)
2 claws_______-1 (1d4 + 1)
2 blade boots_+1/+1 (1d4 + 3)
You would have a base AC of 13 from CHA, and be able to wear heavy armor as well with your first level in Anti-Paladin. If you go with the Bite from Oracle then you can do 1d6 with your bite instead of 1d2.
Might I suggest a Pitborn Tiefling?
+2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int (who needs that anyway?)
Your statistics become
STR 15 (17 with racial) (18 at 4th)
DEX 7
CON 15 (16 at 8th)
INT 12 (10 with racial)
WIS 11
CHA 15 (17 with racial) (18 at 12th)
And take the Variant Tiefling Ability:
(49|You are healed by both positive and negative channeled energy.)
This way you can heal yourself with your Touch of Corruption.
You lose the Claws, but you can gain those with the Talons of Leng if you want to splurge on it. You could also just take claws instead of being healed by positive and negative channeled energy, but this removes your ability to heal yourself with Touch of Corruption which may or may not be exceedingly important to your character's survival.
Just dump your statistic bonuses into STR (4th) Con (8th) and Cha (12th). One gives you better to hit, the other gives you 1 extra HP per HD, and the last will increase your AC by 1. After that the increase of 16th and 20th level is up to you. Seriously, just buy an item to increase your Wis. Anti-Paladins are all about smashing things similar to the Paladin. Being offensively inclined is always better than defensively. You may also want to look into being a Damphire or a Tiefling since both of those can be healed by Negative Energy with the proper traits.
Will need to spend some of her level up stat points to raise her WIS to 14 to get all her spell levels.Anti-Paladins use CHA to cast spells, not Wis.
In the mean time though, her 1st level feat is 'Extra Feature' so that she can shapeshift her bite AND the claws at the same time.Just take Mother's Bite to get a bite. You can use Blade Boots to enable your claws to be free to attack with.
Possibly may or may not take it twice more to be able to fully shift all 4 abilities.Don't waste your time, this is a complete waste of your feats.
So, who out there knows natural weapons enough to help me out with this? Sell me on natural attacks RAW.
You just need to use the appendages that do not have natural attacks to use your manufactured weapons with.
You are literally better off with a single 2 handed weapon if you want damage, because with Natural attacks + TWF you are more or less like a monk and suffer from Flurry of Misses syndrome.You need to choose as to if you want to attack a lot or do a lot of damage. A TWF build can be Great for hitting a bunch of times, especially with Smite Good, but a 2 Handed Power attacking build is going to do a lot more damage.
My personal recommendation is take the above statistics I offered for the Tiefling, use a 2-handed weapon, ignore the blade-boots since you wont qualify for TWF at all with 9 dex, and power-attack constantly.
Your attacks would be
Masterwork 2-h +3 (1d10/1d12/2d6/2d4 + 6 (Str * 1.5, Power attack * 1.5))
Bite -1 (1d4 + 1 (Str * .5, don't bother with power attack)
Actually RAW anyone with 3 natural attacks qualifies for Multiattack. Only in PFS do you need to be a level 10 Ranger with the natural weapons style.Well since this is for a PFS character that's a pointless statement and it's flagged as a monster feat so you'll need GM approval in any other setting that's a less then accurate statement.
Um, as the OP I will correct you on that, this is not for a PFS character, so PFS rules do not matter to me... unless the person you are talking to with the ranger said his was a PFS character? Either way, this thread isn't in the PFS forum, and as the OP looking for ADVICE, PFS rulings don't matter to me, just the RAW.
Like for example on how PFS rules differ from the RAW, it was said that a Half-Orc counts as both human and orc for all feats and effects related to race. So, the Half-Orc can take the Racial Heritage feat. So, take Racial Heritage Elf. Then, now that they are a Human, Elf, and Orc, they can then take an Elf Only Class Archetype as a Half-Orc. This is allowed by the RAW, it is not allowed in PFS, nor even is the Half-Orc allowed to take Orc Archetypes or Human Archetypes... They are a Half-Orc ONLY, in regards to Archetypes.
So, if this was in the PFS section of the forums, this would matter to me. Since it's not in the PFS, I really don't care about PFS rules.
I apologize if this is coming off a bit rude (I hope it's not), but I don't play PFS and so I tend to get frustrated when players come in trying to impose PFS House Rules on me over the RAW.
As for my character, Fanglords DO get a bite attack, so there is no reason for Mother's Bite which I'm pretty sure she can't take anyway, as that's a Lamashtu religion trait and she's an antipaladin of Calistria. Then as for changing her species to a Pitborn Tiefling, that would not work cause I want her as a fanglord lol.
I don't want to ninja someone else's post but there are some questions, advice that I am seeking concerning natural weapons and surprisingly enough were tiger.
I am going to play a bard/barbarian, my GM is mandating a 1 level bard dip. This is a build I roughed out and am seeking advice on.
My question on were tiger is about the extra feature feat, I don't quite understand where I go to choose this extra feature.
Race is skin walker – Were tiger.
1st Level: Barbarian. Traits are Feline instinct and Reactionary. Feat is Improved initiative.
2nd Level: Bard – Arcane duelist archetype. Arcane strike (B).
3rd Level: Barbarian: Feat is Power attack. Rage Power is Lesser beast totem.
4th Level: Barbarian: +1 to Strength.
5th Level: Barbarian: Feat is Multi attack. Rage Power is Superstition.
7th Level: Barbarian: Feat is Extra rage power – Reckless abandon. Rage Power is Beast totem.
8th Level: Barbarian: +1 to Strength.
9th Level: Barbarian: Feat is Rending claws. Rage Power is Witch hunter.
11th Level: Barbarian: Feat is Eldritch claws. Rage Power is Greater beast totem.
13th Level: Barbarian: Feat is Combat reflexes. Rage power is Come and get me.