Starting level? Point buy? Character concept and/or background?
Generally, Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance are a must for finesse fighters. That gives you your dex to attack and damage when using scimitars.
Everything else is just gravy.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Generally, Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance are a must for finesse fighters. That gives you your dex to attack and damage when using scimitars.
If you have a crafter in the party Dervish Dance isn't necessary, as the Agile weapon property does the same thing. You can probably buy an Agile weapon even if you don't.
Other than that, Weapon Focus and Specialization are actually pretty good, as is Lunge, and all are appropriate for a duelist as well. Iron Will is also a solid investment on any Fighter, and Power Attack is very nice if you can manage Str 13 somehow (or Piranha Strike if your GM lets it work with a rapier or scimitar, or if you just go Short Sword).
Additionally...are you allowed to use the Advanced Class Guide Playtest? If so, and your GM is generous, you could rebuild your character withthe Swashbuckler class, which just does this whole idea flat-out better than the fighter, IMO...though it does require some small investment in Charisma.
My brother did a pretty nice build, can't recall specifics, but it was somewhere along the lines of:
Elf
Fighter
Elven Curve Blade (2-handed)
20 DEX, 14 STR if I remember correctly.
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack plus others.
Next time I see him, I'll ask him if he still has the character sheet. It worked pretty well in the Kingmaker campaign I ran. He seemed to enjoy it as he hit a lot and didn't get hit much.
It was a while ago, but I believe I gave them a 20-point buy.
- 2 lvls of Ranger give you Power Attack without the strength prerequisite.
- The Agile enchantment will only become an option in the mid levels, Dervish Dance will serve you from level 2 on.
- You will not be able to compete damage wise with a strength focussed melee build. Find something else to do, e.g. combat maneuvers, scouting or be a rogue replacement via the trapfinder trait (or by taking the trapper Ranger archetype)
Unfortunately you have str 12. You need str 13 for power attack. The optiosn are
a) use a light weapoon and take piranha strike
b) put the +1 from level up into str
c) multiclass 2 levels into ranger.
Elf
Fighter
Elven Curve Blade (2-handed)
20 DEX, 14 STR if I remember correctly.Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack plus others.
This +1.
+x Agile Elven Curved Blade with Weapon Finesse and Power Attack is by far my favorite finesse fighter build. Even if you can't be an elf, Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth it for this build, in my opinion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does agile stack for the purposes of power attack? I'm level 3, and none of us have had to use power attack. Oddly, hitting is the problem, not damage in our group. At fourth level, I'll take power attack and increase my strength, but right now I don't really need it (as odd as that sounds).
It's not odd at all, actually. at low levels, accuracy is much more important than damage, as you usually kill everything in one or two hits anyway.
Personally, I always save Power Attack for 5th level, unless I need it to qualify for something else or if I'm not sure what feat to take.
What they said. Agile Elven Curve Blade is probably your best bet. Sticking with the Agile theme, you could go with the Mobile Fighter or Lore Warden archetypes.
You might be interested in going Eldritch Knight with the Paizo-approved early entry (one level of Scryer Wizard and one level of Fighter or Ranger would qualify).
Or you could ask your DM about the Swashbuckler from the Advanced Class Guide playtest.
If you are the only martial character in the group, you'll do fine. If there are others you'll be disappointed. Finesse fighters never compare well with other martials. They have too many feat taxes and are even more gear dependent than usual.
I love finesse fighters as a concept, but Pathfinder doesn't give them much love.
|
Finesse fighters don’t do well at the higher levels of adventure paths compared to fighters who rely on Power Attack.
I built a finesse fighter for PFS: Fighter 5 Aldori Swordlord PrC 2 Duelist 2 Fighter 3. My character was a human Freehand Fighter, who had a very high AC. Improvements are possible.
Weapon Master or Lore Warden might be better archetypes. If you take Lore Warden, you should take four levels of Aldori Swordlord to get the synergy with Weapon Expertise.
I’ve considered taking Urban Barbarian at levels 1 and 3. In such a case, I would drop Aldori Swordlord and take Dervish Dance.
At higher levels, finesse fighters hit a lot but do not do quite enough damage. Taking 12 levels of fighter allows you to take Greater Weapon Specialization.
edit: missing word
There is a problem if you do not take power attack/piranha strike for your finesse fighter.
|
|
What they said. Agile Elven Curve Blade is probably your best bet. Sticking with the Agile theme, you could go with the Mobile Fighter or Lore Warden archetypes.
Elven Curved Blades aren't generally worth the feat. Sure, they're a d10 over a d6, but you're not getting 1.5x Dex with them. You're better off sticking with an agile rapier or a scimitar and picking up a darkwood heavy shield for your offhand.
You still get 1.5x Power Attacks with them, and Elves get the proficiency basically for free.
And the move from d6 to d10 may be minor, but hey - It's the same bonus as you'd get from Weapon Specialization.
At 5th level, an Elf Fighter with 20 Dex, and a +1 Agile Elven Curved Blade, with Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, and weapon training (heavy blades):
+10 attack, 1d10+13 damage, crits 18-20/x2 (average non-crit of 18.5 damage, but higher crit chance)
Compared to a 5th Level fighter with 20 Str and a +2 Greatsword, with power attack and weapon training (heavy blades):
+11 attack, 2d6+16 damage, crits 19-20/x2 (average non-crit of 23 damage, but lower crit chance)
Note there a alot more feats to adjust these numbers that I have not included as I'm just doing a simple comparison. The first is a bit more gear and feat dependent to be sure. But you are a fighter with a ton of feats, and your higher dex means higher reflex saves, better use of armor training and/or lighter armor worn (+x Mithril Fullplate with no penalty to move speed, a max dex of +7, and no armor check penalty at level 15, anyone?), and (if you can get acrobatics added via a trait) crazy manuverability on the battlefield. Also, you get more value out of Improved Critical feat since the curved blade starts at 18-20/x2 and thus becomes 15-20/x2 (If you use a crit deck there is no contest). Overall, a bit more investment and probably not as amazing out of the gate as a straight Str THF build, but it's viable, different, and fun.
And, you don't have to deal with the scimitar, TWF, derivsh, crazy feat chain shennanigans either. Personal preference I guess, but I prefer my finesse fighers this way.
Actually, make that a Half-elf instead of an Elf with the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curved Blade). That way you don't have to have that pesky -2 to Con.
|
I'm about to sound all "Get off my lawn!"-y, but I cannot stand the fact that so many non-desert/Osirion-esque people take Dervish Dance.
My halfling from the foothills of the river kingdoms has dervish dance".
Why? other than mechanical flavor designed to make you not suck....why?
Is it me or is it just pitiful that there are 3 choices, all specifically flavored for 1 of 3 particular areas.
Dervishes (should be from the desert area)
Aldori Sword lords (from where ever they are from, but a relatively small area)
Elven Curve Blade guys, from, Elf lands.
What if I wanted to be a Vudrani kris blade finesse guy?
"Geez grumpy get off my lawn guy, reflavor an already specified flavor feat to do that!"
Come on man. What gives.
Oh yeah....get off my lawn!
You are the one who creates your character's flavor. Not the book's text.
Dervish Dance is no more flavor-specific than Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
As written, it is. It comes from a setting book, not a rules book, and was originally placed in a sidebar listing it as being used by Qadiran followers of Saranrae.
Even divorced from that context though; it's still about dancing with a (particular kind of) sword, which is an odd thing for a character not from that culture to be doing.
Any feat can be reflavored and renamed without affecting the mechanics.
Right. And the mechanics of the feat are that you're dancing (Perform Dance as a prerequisite) with a scimitar. Not sure how many ways you can fluff that.
Right. And the mechanics of the feat are that you're dancing (Perform Dance as a prerequisite) with a scimitar. Not sure how many ways you can fluff that.
is perform (dance) or perform (dance from Qadira)?
|
|
I'm about to sound all "Get off my lawn!"-y, but I cannot stand the fact that so many non-desert/Osirion-esque people take Dervish Dance.
My halfling from the foothills of the river kingdoms has dervish dance".
Why? other than mechanical flavor designed to make you not suck....why?
Is it me or is it just pitiful that there are 3 choices, all specifically flavored for 1 of 3 particular areas.
Dervishes (should be from the desert area)
Aldori Sword lords (from where ever they are from, but a relatively small area)
Elven Curve Blade guys, from, Elf lands.
What if I wanted to be a Vudrani kris blade finesse guy?
"Geez grumpy get off my lawn guy, reflavor an already specified flavor feat to do that!"
Come on man. What gives.
Oh yeah....get off my lawn!
The Agile weapon enhancement is pretty non-specific, flavor-wise.
You are the one who creates your character's flavor. Not the book's text.
Dervish Dance is no more flavor-specific than Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
This is true, but ignores the fact that Weapon Focus (Scimitar) has a pretty specific flavor.
Any feat can be reflavored and renamed without affecting the mechanics.
Sure, but for that to work for Dervish Dance you need to actually change the mechanics since the 'you need a scimitar' is the real flavor restriction, scimitars being rather culturally specific.
..
.
On the bright side, there have been some indications of a more generic Feat being available in the ACG (because, well, Swashbuckler class), so this may not be a problem much longer.
I'm building a finesse fighter. I really have not seen any builds for this, so I'd appreciate any help. We're playing Rise of the Runelords, and none of us are super optimized, we mostly just created characters we'd enjoy playing. I have 18 dex, 16 int, 12 str and con. I need to know what feats are best. I have the prerequisite feats for the duelist class.
There is another recent thread with someone building a Dex (Finesse) fighter on the board. Jiggy gave some great information. Essentially all you need is Weapon Finesse and Powerattack.
Found the thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qt71?Elven-Fighter-Using-Dex-for-Main-Stat#6
As written, it is. It comes from a setting book, not a rules book, and was originally placed in a sidebar listing it as being used by Qadiran followers of Saranrae.
Even divorced from that context though; it's still about dancing with a (particular kind of) sword, which is an odd thing for a character not from that culture to be doing.
Let's read the feat...
You have learned to turn your speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
No mention of Qadira or Sarenrae anywhere... But even if it did mention either of those? What does it matter? It's the player, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
And needing a scimitar is no more of a "flavor restriction" than it is needing a Falchion for Improved Critical (Falchion) or a bow for Manyshot. Scimitars are not any more "culture specific" than any other weapon. Many different classes based on many different cultures are proficient with them.
|
|
No mention of Qadira or Sarenrae anywhere... But even if it did mention either of those? What does it matter? It's the player, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
And needing a scimitar is no more of a "flavor restriction" than it is needing a Falchion for Improved Critical (Falchion) or a bow for Manyshot. Scimitars are not any more "culture specific" than any other weapon. Many different classes based on many different cultures are proficient with them.
Except, yes they are. Your Elven nobleman professional duelist should not be using a Greataxe, because that's inappropriate culturally. The same is true of the warhammer, or the scimitar. Despite all being Martial weapons.
You're completely right that the Feat is no more flavored than any weapon specific feat...but some weapons have very specific flavor indeed, and scimitars are one of them. They're very specifically thematically linked to 'Middle Eastern' areas ala Katapesh and Qadira, and/or to the worship of Sarenrae.
Oh, and put combat reflexes somewhere in your build. You'll have feats to spare and high dex, might as well punish all the foes trying to get past you to the squishies.
And as long as you're doing that, may I suggest Combat Patrol, Lunge, and Pin Down feats?
Congrats, now in addition to a viable damage build you can instead choose to lock down enemies in the battlefield from moving unless you want them to.
Damage, Flavor, Options... I'm liking this.
No mention of Qadira or Sarenrae anywhere... But even if it did mention either of those? What does it matter? It's the player, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
And needing a scimitar is no more of a "flavor restriction" than it is needing a Falchion for Improved Critical (Falchion) or a bow for Manyshot. Scimitars are not any more "culture specific" than any other weapon. Many different classes based on many different cultures are proficient with them.
Except, yes they are. Your Elven nobleman professional duelist should not be using a Greataxe, because that's inappropriate culturally. The same is true of the warhammer, or the scimitar. Despite all being Martial weapons.
You're completely right that the Feat is no more flavored than any weapon specific feat...but some weapons have very specific flavor indeed, and scimitars are one of them. They're very specifically thematically linked to 'Middle Eastern' areas ala Katapesh and Qadira, and/or to the worship of Sarenrae.
I disagree. There is no "should"s and "shouldn't"s when it comes to creating character concepts. Any player can mix and match flavor and mechanics in any way they want. It's your choice to restrict yourself to whatever flavor the book tells you is the "correct" one. The only thing I consider to be "inappropriate" is playing something you don't enjoy.
I once played a viking Palading who used a Bardiche, a Halfling Barbarian who used a scimitar, a Dwarf Monk who used a 2-handed ax. A Half-Orc Inquisitor who used katanas and longbows.
Scimitars, just like any other weapon, feat, class feature, etc, are only limited to whatever flavor you choose to limit them to.
A Fighter who grew up in a world with no Qaddira or Qaddira-like setting would still be proficient with scimitars. A Barbarian who grew up in the Darklands, never had contact with any other human and never even heard of Sarenrae could still use scimitars and Dervish Dance.
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
While it's true that Dervish Dance was introduced to allow the creation of characters of an specific flavor, it is no way limited to that flavor.
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
There's a difference between reflavoring and just ignoring the flavor completely. What is the alternative flavor that's being used to describe the fighting style of dancing with a scimitar?
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.There's a difference between reflavoring and just ignoring the flavor completely. What is the alternative flavor that's being used to describe the fighting style of dancing with a scimitar?
Simply being an agile sabre expert. The two ranks in Perform: Dance can be explained away as incidental - The character also happens to know how to dance. Or you could just ignore it entirely, burn the two skill ranks as the tax for getting the feat and never dance.
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.There's a difference between reflavoring and just ignoring the flavor completely. What is the alternative flavor that's being used to describe the fighting style of dancing with a scimitar?
Youn need perform (dance) to take the feat. But do you need to dance to use the feat? is there a mechanics associated to it?
But well, that is what happens when a feat is too much restrictive. The simple solutions is to allow dervish dance to work with any slashin/piercing one handed weapon, it is not like the scimitar is almost the strongest choise already.
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.There's a difference between reflavoring and just ignoring the flavor completely. What is the alternative flavor that's being used to describe the fighting style of dancing with a scimitar?
The character learned to turn speed into power, even with a heavier blade.
Is dancing the only way to attack using speed instead of raw physical power? I don't think so.
I don't see anything wrong with completely ignoring the flavor of a feat either. As long as the player enjoys his character and is not harming the fun of others, I don't give a damn if he got Dervish Dance because he's a devout follower of Sarenrae, because he learned the ability from a completely unrelated source (my Halfing "duelist" created the style on her own) or if he has the feat "just 'cause".
It's the player's character. Not mine. He can use "official" fluff, create his own or don't even bother. If we are all having fun, I couldn't care less.
But well, that is what happens when a feat is too much restrictive. The simple solutions is to allow dervish dance to work with any slashing/piercing one handed weapon, it is not like the scimitar is almost the strongest choice already.
Personally, I allow it to apply to any light or one-handed bladed weapon. As you said, Scimitars are one of the best options anyway, so it's not like players are gaining a free advantage. I also change its prerequisite from 2 ranks in Perform(Dance) to a simple +1 BAB. I don't care if this allows some characters to take it at 1st level.
|
|
I disagree. There is no "should"s and "shouldn't"s when it comes to creating character concepts. Any player can mix and match flavor and mechanics in any way they want. It's your choice to restrict yourself to whatever flavor the book tells you is the "correct" one. The only thing I consider to be "inappropriate" is playing something you don't enjoy.
What about things that make the other players not enjoy the game? Immersion-breaking stuff can very seriously do that for some people, myself included.
Now, I'll certainly work with people to make their concepts work mechanically without the need for doing that (I allow Dervish Dance on any finesse-able weapon, for example), and will absolutely help someone who wants to use a scimitar in a region where that's uncommon justify that...but there does need to be that justification, or the world stops making sense.
I once played a viking Palading who used a Bardiche, a Halfling Barbarian who used a scimitar, a Dwarf Monk who used a 2-handed ax. A Half-Orc Inquisitor who used katanas and longbows.
All those sound like absolutely viable concepts...but, in my games, the Halfling would probably need to be from a few certain areas, and the Half-Orc ditto.
Scimitars, just like any other weapon, feat, class feature, etc, are only limited to whatever flavor you choose to limit them to.
Not really. Scimitars, like almost all weapons in the book, are real-world weapons and thus have a lot of real world baggage that they bring with them into the game world, flavor-wise.
A Fighter who grew up in a world with no Qaddira or Qaddira-like setting would still be proficient with scimitars. A Barbarian who grew up in the Darklands, never had contact with any other human and never even heard of Sarenrae could still use scimitars and Dervish Dance.
Yes, they would and could. But they'd still need to be from an area that did use such weapons for their weapon choice to make sense. If nobody else in the area they'd come from used scimitars it makes little sense for them to have and use one.
Because, again, and I can't express this vehemently enough, it's the players, not the book, who creates the character's flavor.
Sort of. First, it's the players, plural. Creating a character whose flavor ruins other peoples' enjoyment is inappropriate. Second, perhaps more importantly, the book does create the world's flavor, which impacts character flavor pretty significantly. A viking character should not come from Qadira, but from the Land of the Linnorm Kings and has certain stereotypical in-world things associated with them. You can deviate from those stereotypes (like actually getting along fine with Witches) but for verisimilitude, people who know the typical attitude of residents of that area will look at you as strange, and that attitude begs for a backstory explanation. As does a scimitar-user being in that area.
While it's true that Dervish Dance was introduced to allow the creation of characters of an specific flavor, it is no way limited to that flavor.
Not entirely, no. But it is limited to, well, characters using scimitars. Which do have a specific flavor (though somewhat broader than the Feat's intended character-type). You can House Rule the Feat to change that (I do, as mentioned above) but by default, the necessity of using a particular weapon with a very specific cultural idiom makes the Feat tied to that culture or others that use such a weapon (which you can certainly add in a homebrew world or down in the Darklands...but doesn't work so well as a follower of Torag from the Land of the Linnorm Kings).
If you are Human, I would refer you to both Dervish Dance and Martial Versatility from ARG.
Although skill-taxing (and a Fighter needs all the help they can get with Skills), this feat combination will essentially allow you to use any kind of Heavy Bladed weapon with Dex for both Attack and Damage. Here's a complete list of all the Heavy Bladed weapons which would be eligible for this, assuming it is held in one hand (and nothing is in the other):
In addition, since you have the Intelligence for it, I would refer you to Combat Expertise, as well as taking all of the Dirty Trick feats. (Improved, Greater, and Quick.) This will allow you to perform a single Dirty Trick (expending your highest BAB, or one of the 2 you would get if you had Haste) in addition to a Full Attack Option that severely debilitates an enemy with conditions for 1D4+X rounds; they can end that early, but they must expend a Standard Action to do so, meaning they aren't attacking you, or casting spells (at least, in the early-game). This combo allows you to both make attacks as well as do other useful in-combat abilities.
I'm a fan of Two weapon fighting finesse builds. Specifically a fighter with two kukris or two wakizashis, depending if I'm willing to spend the extra feat for d6s instead of d4s. Sure they may not do much damage, but the two weapon rend feat will really help if you can get your attack rolls high enough. Once you hit 12th level, you can multiclass into barbarian or paladin, because by then you qualify for all fighter only feats anyways.
I'm a fan of Two weapon fighting finesse builds. Specifically a fighter with two kukris or two wakizashis, depending if I'm willing to spend the extra feat for d6s instead of d4s. Sure they may not do much damage, but the two weapon rend feat will really help if you can get your attack rolls high enough. Once you hit 12th level, you can multicast into barbarian or paladin, because by then you qualify for all fighter only feats anyways.
He wouldn't qualify for Greater Penetrating Strike. Reducing all DR imparted to your attacks by 10 (and DR/- by 5) is definitely worth the feat; something that isn't present in its predecessor.
Man, this ended up being a long post, so I'm spoilerizing to avoid too much thread-jacking.
What about things that make the other players not enjoy the game? Immersion-breaking stuff can very seriously do that for some people, myself included.
If something like a non-Quaddiran character using Dervish Dance bother someone that much... I'd tell that someone to grow up and let it go. It's just a freaking weapon. If that breaks someone's immersion, then said someone needs to chill out. There is not innately Qaddiran about Dervish Dance. You're the one choosing to use that fluff. And again, even if it did specify its a Qaddiran combat style, it wouldn't matter. Because the book does not create your character's flavor. You do.
There's so much more to a character that is so much more relevant than his weapon of choice. To me, it seems petty to be bothered by what your friend's character uses to stab people.
All those sound like absolutely viable concepts...but, in my games, the Halfling would probably need to be from a few certain areas, and the Half-Orc ditto.
And I'd be very annoyed if my GM told me my characters has to come from Qaddira or wherever just because I chose to use a scimitar. That's just too close-minded for me. I can come up with a thousand different explanations for a character's weapon of choice, why is "She's from fantasy Middle East" or "He's from fantasy Japan" the only acceptable ones?
Not really. Scimitars, like almost all weapons in the book, are real-world weapons and thus have a lot of real world baggage that they bring with them into the game world, flavor-wise.
That baggage only matters if you want it to matter. It's not something inherent to the rules. Not all Samurai are from fantasy Japan, not all Clerics are from fantasy-Crusades, not all Druids are from whatever folklore created Druids, and so on.
Again: The rules do not create your character's flavor. You do.
Yes, they would and could. But they'd still need to be from an area that did use such weapons for their weapon choice...
Or... He could forge a scimitar himself. Or get it from someone else (who also never heard about Qaddira or Sarenrae, I'm pretty sure being Qaddiran is not a prerequiste for "inventing" or forging a scimitar). There is an infinity of possible explanations for a character to use scimitars. I choose not to restrict my players to a single one.
There is nothing wrong with saying "In my game, katanas only exist in fantasy Japan and only characters who lived there can use them", but this is in no way an official rule, it's just GM/player/table preference.
Sort of. First, it's the players, plural. Creating a character whose flavor ruins other peoples' enjoyment is inappropriate.
True, but that has nothing to do with flavor... That's just one of a billion different reasons a character can harm someone's enjoyment.
Second, perhaps more importantly, the book does create the world's flavor, which impacts character flavor pretty significantly. A viking character should not come from Qadira, but from the Land of the Linnorm Kings and has certain stereotypical in-world things associated with them. You can deviate from those stereotypes (like actually getting along fine with Witches) but for verisimilitude, people who know the typical attitude of residents of that area will look at you as strange, and that attitude begs for a backstory explanation. As does a scimitar-user being in that area.
That has no relation to a feat's description. The game world will react to your character however the GM sees fit. No problem with that. I do not disagree that a character might be an exception to the rule or be seen as a freak. What I disagree with is the notion that the only viable reason for a character to have something is the "official" most common reason. My Halfling duelist got a scimitar from her older brother, who forged it himself to better fit his combat style. It just happens that his combat style is similar to one used in Qaddira. Two or more completely unrelated people independently having the same idea and/or creating the same thing is a very common occurrence in real world history, why would it not happen in Golarion?
Not entirely, no. But it is limited to, well, characters using scimitars. Which do have a specific flavor (though somewhat broader than the Feat's intended character-type). You can House Rule the Feat to change that (I do, as mentioned above) but by default, the necessity of using a particular weapon with a very specific cultural idiom makes the Feat tied to that culture or others that use such a weapon (which you can certainly add in a homebrew world or down in the Darklands...but doesn't work so well as a follower of Torag from the Land of the Linnorm Kings).
The feat's requirement to be used with an specific weapon only says the character must use that specific weapon. It says absolutely nothing about the character's personality or background.
Scimitars are just as flavor-specific as any other weapon, i.e.: as much as you want them to be. You are the one creating fluff restrictions, not the rules.
Whatever flavor you choose to associate with scimitars (or any other thing) is your choice. There is nothing saying a character must be from an specific region to use scimitars.
To be clear, I enjoy flavorful characters, and I think flavor is a huge part of what makes a character interesting. I just don't think the "official" fluff is any more valid than the one created by the player.
I'm a fan of Two weapon fighting finesse builds. Specifically a fighter with two kukris or two wakizashis, depending if I'm willing to spend the extra feat for d6s instead of d4s. Sure they may not do much damage, but the two weapon rend feat will really help if you can get your attack rolls high enough. Once you hit 12th level, you can multicast into barbarian or paladin, because by then you qualify for all fighter only feats anyways.He wouldn't qualify for Greater Penetrating Strike. Reducing all DR imparted to your attacks by 10 (and DR/- by 5) is definitely worth the feat; something that isn't present in its predecessor.
I always forget about that one....
Lemmy Druids are not from folk lore they were a religious sect from Celtic areas of the British isles and Northern Europe. In Pathfinder their weapon is often the scimitar a weapon that in real life was developed in Arabia/Persia which sort of proves your point. The game doesn't care about real world flavor why should we. Also in a world with teleport culture isolation is less rampant.
Zanthrax, Deadman you have to realize that Galorian is a setting in which their star town of sandpoint, smack dab in the middle of classic western RPG lore, has an tian (asian) noble family and a temple to Irori god of strength (psst monks/ contemplative meditation/ etc) . So why couldn't anyone from anywhere learned any style of combat?
Any setting with giant scorpion robots rolling around has to be taken with a grain of salt.
|
|
Man, this ended up being a long post, so I'm spoilerizing to avoid too much thread-jacking.
Ditto.
If something like a non-Quaddiran character using Dervish Dance bother someone that much... I'd tell that someone to grow up and let it go. It's just a freaking weapon. If that breaks someone's immersion, then said someone needs to chill out. There is not innately Qaddiran about Dervish Dance. You're the one choosing to use that fluff. And again, even if it did specify its a Qaddiran combat style, it wouldn't matter. Because the book does not create your character's flavor. You do.
First, I never specified Qadiran. I specified a culture that uses scimitars. Which, actually, includes like a third of the Inner Sea world map. And all followers of one of the twenty major Gods. So it's not like it's a short list...
Secondly, I don't think a weapon breaking immersion is any more unreasonable than any other aesthetic aspect of a character doing so. Naming a character native to the area 'Joe Smith' or 'Halfdan Shieldbreaker' in a game based in Qadira is potentially pretty immersion breaking, since it's completely culturally inappropriate for him to be named that (barring being of Ulfen descent, on the second one). Ditto using a scimitar as a native of the Land of the Linnorm Kings (barring being a worshiper of Sarenrae). Or a character (as opposed to a player) making a lot of specific pop culture references in any fantasy game.
All are reasonable things to find inappropriate, because they jolt you out of the world, they violate its internal logic and make it clear that this would never happen in the world as presented. They break immersion, they reveal the game as a lie, and that's, frankly, annoying as hell to a fair number of people.
There's so much more to a character that is so much more relevant than his weapon of choice. To me, it seems petty to be bothered by what your friend's character uses to stab people.
Sure, other things are more important. I wouldn't dream of arguing otherwise. But there's a principle of storytelling: "Every story is allowed one lie." The lie being that the world works like X. Anything violating the logic of the world is another lie, and breaks immersion in the world in question. And that's really not okay in a game where people actually care about that.
And I'd be very annoyed if my GM told me my characters has to come from Qaddira or wherever just because I chose to use a scimitar. That's just too close-minded for me. I can come up with a thousand different explanations for a character's weapon of choice, why is "She's from fantasy Middle East" or "He's from fantasy Japan" the only acceptable ones?
No, but if those are uncommon weapons in the area the game is taking place in, some explanation is required. To go back to the Land of the Linnorm Kings as an example, Minkaian (fantasy-Japan) traders are actually pretty common, so being descended from or trained by one of them is a good explanation for a katana...but down Katapesh-way, that explanation doesn't fly as well unless the character is still from the Land of the Linnorm Kings, Minkai, or somewhere else that uses katanas (or at the very least was trained by such a person).
That baggage only matters if you want it to matter. It's not something inherent to the rules. Not all Samurai are from fantasy Japan, not all Clerics are from fantasy-Crusades, not all Druids are from whatever folklore created Druids, and so on.
Again: The rules do not create your character's flavor. You do.
There's this little thing called verisimilitude. In the world as presented, those weapons are used commonly by certain cultures and not generally used by others. The same is not true for most classes in the particular world in question (and even for those it is, classes are a lot easier to reflavor than weapons are, given that nobody in-world knows your class unless you tell them...but do know what weapon you're using).
Now, in a homebrew world, the culture that uses scimitars might have nothing to do with real-world Middle Eastern culture (indeed, I'm using such a culture in my current homebrew game), but there's still a level on which, if only that culture uses them, people of cultures from half the world away probably shouldn't.
Or... He could forge a scimitar himself. Or get it from someone else (who also never heard about Qaddira or Sarenrae, I'm pretty sure being Qaddiran is not a prerequiste for "inventing" or forging a scimitar). There is an infinity of possible explanations for a character to use scimitars. I choose not to restrict my players to a single one.
If he has crafting skills? Sure, he could make it himself. Though, in the Inner Sea region of Golarion, having never heard of Sarenrae would be...distinctly odd. Way weirder than the scimitar thing. I'm not saying any one explanation is necessary, I'm saying that a plausible explanation is necessary.
There is nothing wrong with saying "In my game, katanas only exist in fantasy Japan and only characters who lived there can use them", but this is in no way an official rule, it's just GM/player/table preference.
No, it isn't a rule. But it is to a somewhat lesser degree (see my talk about katanas in the Land of the Linnorm Kings above) a built-in setting assumption for Golarion. And that's pretty relevant to a lot of people's games and thus worth bringing up in discussion.
True, but that has nothing to do with flavor... That's just one of a billion different reasons a character can harm someone's enjoyment.
There certainly are. And using a katana as a Katapesh native in a game intended to evoke classic Arabian Nights style tropes ala Legacy of Fire, or a scimitar being used by a secular nobleman from Brevoy in a game focused on The River Kingdoms ala Kingmaker totally ruins the mood for some people. Myself included.
That has no relation to a feat's description. The game world will react to your character however the GM sees fit. No problem with that. I do not disagree that a character might be an exception to the rule or be seen as a freak. What I disagree with is the notion that the only viable reason for a character to have something is the "official" most common reason.
That's...really not what I'm saying. At all. Alternative reasons are fine, as long as they're plausible alternate reasons, given the world as presented.
My Halfling duelist got a scimitar from her older brother, who forged it himself to better fit his combat style. It just happens that his combat style is similar to one used in Qaddira. Two or more completely unrelated people independently having the same idea and/or creating the same thing is a very common occurrence in real world history, why would it not happen in Golarion?
This is theoretically possible...but from a plausibility perspective there's a big problem with this story: A scimitar is, inherently, a terrible weapon for a finesse character. It's not finesseable. You need to actually go through a whole process (and learn the Dervish Dance feat) for it to even be used that way. For the way the weapon and Feat work mechanically to make any sense you need to build the fighting style around the weapon, not vice versa. And I can't think of a Strength-based fighting style that a scimitar is just flat-out best for.
With an exotic (as in 'not from around here', not necessarily the weapon type) but innately finesseable weapon, I'd be fine with something like that story, though. For the record.
The feat's requirement to be used with an specific weapon only says the character must use that specific weapon. It says absolutely nothing about the character's personality or background.
This is true. But the setting says some things about where such weapons are used and by who. Violating setting assumptions is certainly possible, but seriously annoying when done for little or no good reason. I don't consider "I want a scimitar." or even "I want Dervish Dance." to be a good reason in and of itself (especially since I let people get that second one on Rapiers or anything else finesse-able if they like).
Scimitars are just as flavor-specific as any other weapon, i.e.: as much as you want them to be. You are the one creating fluff restrictions, not the rules.
No, the setting and real-world history combined make the restrictions. Now, in some settings or with some groups, this isn't a big deal, but for others it is. And the 'default flavor' of Pathfinder is Golarion, so saying things 'might be problematic flavor-wise' is a reasonable statement if that's true in Golarion.
Whatever flavor you choose to associate with scimitars (or any other thing) is your choice. There is nothing saying a character must be from an specific region to use scimitars.
The setting isn't as restrictive as you're implying, and neither am I. Again, like a third of the map and all worshipers of a major God. Plus people trained by folks from that area.
To be clear, I enjoy flavorful characters, and I think flavor is a huge part of what makes a character interesting. I just don't think the "official" fluff is any more valid than the one created by the player.
It depends on whether the player's fluff actively contradicts that of the world, and how much the rest of the group knows and cares about existing fluff. I mean, in an established world like Golarion a player saying they have this whole country made up that goes right next to 'the Viking area' and that their character must be from it isn't always gonna work, and neither is using certain weapons as a character from certain areas (not without a heck of an explanation, anyway).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I often read advices on character builds which are something like: uh, dervish Dance, agile weapon - for rogue-like charakters especially - and again in this thread.
I agree I don't like to take a feat which is linked to a specific culture for someone from the northern regions for example. Playing an Eroll Flynn pirate-charakter with, ahem, dervish dance? No way...
BUT.
What really amazes me is the fact that most GM's do allow every obscure feat which are mentioned in some campaign settings. I do not find any reference of a dervish dance feat in any of the RULEBOOKS other than the bard variant. Same goes for agile weapons. There are no agile weapons (even in UE!!!). Same for guided weapons by the way...
My experience is that no GM I know (including myself) would freely allow such rule/equipment additions - possibly after discussing, but never ever as given.
Advices building on concepts of obscurity are at least questionable.
By the way, I do foresee the creation of an enchantment which will allow charisma based damage, maybe to give bards/sorcerers some extra edge. Anyway, I do not want to discuss the tendency of power creeping in rule-/sourcebook additions. As long as such errors - namely breaking the game system: here do damage without STR - live only in specific campaigns I do not mind.
To consider these feats/enchantments whatever common stuff I disgree.
So for this discussion, you can take dervish dance and buy agile weapons to do damage as purely DEX- based fighter IF you can convince your GM to allow these obsceneties...
:-)
Spending feats to do less damage is obscene, all right.
|
Back during the Living City campaign I built a finesse fighter based on the spiked chain. My entire point was to make as many melee combatants useless as possible. Exotic Weap Prof: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm was my first level fighter feats as a human. I went on to pick up a couple of levels of Rogue so that I'd get skills that I wanted ended up taking prestige class of Chosen, or something like that, which was kind of a paladin but for non LG goods. I found it super fun and was once told by a GM "It's great having you at the table, but you nerf every encounter". Now I'd take Ninja instead of rogue, LOVE the chi stuff! The finesse fighters can be a lot of fun, but know that you aren't going to be doing massive damage.