Generalist Wizard, No (or very little) Offensive (Damage Dealing) spells


Advice


Would this be a viable option? I mean, I understand that the majority opinion here is that a blasty wizard is not the best option any way. But what about a wizard who doesn't learn (or at any rate prepare often) ANY damage dealing spells. Would such a wizard be completely useless in combat situations? How would one build such a wizard as this and have it be made of pure awesomesauce?


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You can do fine without blasting. Have you checked out the guides in the advice forum?

I wouldn't play a generalist wizard. Pick a specialty.

Liberty's Edge

If you have other ways of taking out opponents (Enchantment, Illusion, etc.) that's a perfectly fine choice.

I think the most effective Wizard I've seen played in person was an Illusionist who had basically no damaging spells above 0-level (though he did once kill a Black Dragon with Ray of Frost...).


Dead man walking,tell more about this illusionist.

Liberty's Edge

JoCa wrote:
Dead man walking,tell more about this illusionist.

Well, thematically, he was a famous middle aged Half-Elf actor, once famous in Galt before the Revolution and forced to flee as his roles had included several aristocratic heroes. He had the stats to back that up, too. He had currently fallen on hard times and joined the adventuring party (who were in the River Kingdoms) to make ends meet without selling any of his stuff.

Mechanically, in terms of what made him so effective, he was an Illusion (Shadow Subschool) specialist with Evocation and I think Necromancy as opposed schools, and had Spell Focus (Illusion) and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) along with maxed out Int, and chose his spells well. Phantasmal Web is ridiculous and often encounter-ending, for example. He dabbled in other spells to shore up the potential weaknesses of having only illusions (with several offensive Conjurations, for example). He was pretty fun and very effective...though not really optimized per se due to a Con of 10 and no favored class bonuses put into HP ever.


It works exceptionally well. Frankly you will help your group far more with a spell list which contains Silent Image, Grease, Colour Spray, Glitterdust, Create Pit and Haste than one with a lot of Magic Missiles or Fireballs. You still want a little aoe available in case of swarms but don't go overboard on it.


Illusions require topnotch creativity and a sit down with your gm. Does looking at it count as interacting with it? My gnome wizard tried to be an illusionist and as my first character i played to higher levels it was hard to properly utilize the image spells. Mostly i dropped glitterdusts, black tentacles, and buff spells. Granted before the campaign went on hiatus I took Opposition research Necromancy for some blastability after an unfortunate bout of cosmic possession that caused me to merge minds with a homicidal demigod.


And do not Generalize. The powers for some schools range from Meh to WAT!? Shadow school gets a fun little teleport but also forced your gm to use light rule a lot.

Liberty's Edge

Gallyck wrote:
Illusions require topnotch creativity and a sit down with your gm. Does looking at it count as interacting with it? My gnome wizard tried to be an illusionist and as my first character i played to higher levels it was hard to properly utilize the image spells. Mostly i dropped glitterdusts, black tentacles, and buff spells. Granted before the campaign went on hiatus I took Opposition research Necromancy for some blastability after an unfortunate bout of cosmic possession that caused me to merge minds with a homicidal demigod.

Doing the Image spells does require a lot of creativity...but Color Spray, Loathsome Veil, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration, Phantasmal Web, Shadow Evocation, etc. require a lot less of that sort of thing. And that leaves aside all the great defensive spells under Illusion (Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility, I'm looking at you).

But yeah, it's probably not the objectively best school (that's almost certainly Conjuration, with Transmutation a close second), but it's one of the easiest (along with Enchantment) to avoid damaging spells entirely with and still be effective.


Look up treantmonk's guide to the god wizard for a great level of detail for exactly what you are attempting.

As an FYI, the best wizards, the most powerful wizards, are likely to almost never cast an evocation spell (which are your main direct damage dealing spells,aka "Blasting"). Being a god wizard doesn't mean dealing damage to the enemy, it's about controlling the battlefield so that you're allies have all the advantages and your enemies have none.

Dropping black tentacles or a pit spell to reshape the battledfield in your favor is huge.

I will also add the universalist wizards are significantly weaker in reality than specialized wizard. While it may not sound like much having an extra spell slot for a spell of your specialized school is big. And with the ability to remove a school from your opposed school list with Opposition Research you choose one school only to be bad at (evocation?) and be good at everything else.

Also Foresight subschool of Divination or Conjuration school focuses can create very powerful casters with very useful abilities. The Foresight school wizard always go first and can preroll d20s to know how they will do on the round and help ensure a good roll. Conjuration has a nice teleport ability and some boosts to summoning.


Focusing on debuffing and control is very effective, but you need to have some tools to deal with immunities. Very few enemies are straight up immune to damage spells (a few are immune to certain elements, of course), but with a focus on debuffs you have to keep immunities in mind when picking spells (constructs, undeads and plants are usually the big offenders, though constructs tend to be immune to many damage spells anyway).

Glitterdust and Slow are among the most excellent debuff spells because they have powerful effects and relatively few monsters are directly immune to them. My divination wizard had Preferred Spell: Glitterdust for this reason - whatever kind of enemy he faced, he could convert his 2+ level spells to Glitterdusts, which would usually work well against almost all creature types (barring extraordinary senses and/or natural blindness).


Treantmonk's Guide

Keep in mind that this was written back when only the Core Rule Book was printed. It's details only cover core options IIRC, but all of it is still valid and will still allow you to create an incredibly powerful character.


Claxon wrote:

Look up treantmonk's guide to the god wizard for a great level of detail for exactly what you are attempting.

As an FYI, the best wizards, the most powerful wizards, are likely to almost never cast an evocation spell (which are your main direct damage dealing spells,aka "Blasting"). Being a god wizard doesn't mean dealing damage to the enemy, it's about controlling the battlefield so that you're allies have all the advantages and your enemies have none.

Dropping black tentacles or a pit spell to reshape the battledfield in your favor is huge.

Note that Treantmonks guide is now horribly out of date and doesn't take account of powerful options, in particular Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell.

Persistent is crucial for battlefield controllers. Dazing turns any damage spell into powerful control.


andreww wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Look up treantmonk's guide to the god wizard for a great level of detail for exactly what you are attempting.

As an FYI, the best wizards, the most powerful wizards, are likely to almost never cast an evocation spell (which are your main direct damage dealing spells,aka "Blasting"). Being a god wizard doesn't mean dealing damage to the enemy, it's about controlling the battlefield so that you're allies have all the advantages and your enemies have none.

Dropping black tentacles or a pit spell to reshape the battledfield in your favor is huge.

Note that Treantmonks guide is now horribly out of date and doesn't take account of powerful options, in particular Persistent Spell and Dazing Spell.

Persistent is crucial for battlefield controllers. Dazing turns any damage spell into powerful control.

It's true that it's out of date, and you can definitely make even more powerful wizards now then you could then, but it's still completely possible to use only the information presented a create a powerful character.

Really the only other important things to be aware of for a wizard are new spells that have come out since (maybe the biggest, of course almost all the greatest spells are core), new metamagic feats (the other biggest) and the new school and subschool abilities availably. Anything else is pretty much gravy.


Yep, you may want to look up Professor Q's guide for an update, it is linked in the Class Guide Compilation thread. Powerful new options to be aware of include:

Feats:

Persistent Spell
Dazing Spell
Preferred Spell
Spell Perfection

Class Features:

Teleport Sub School
Foresight Sub School

Spells:

Emergency Force Sphere
Snowball
Paragon Surge

There are undoubtedly more but they are the immediate things which come to mind.


Paragon Surge is really only useful if you're a cheesy half-elf spontaneous caster. Not that it's awful, but there are better ways to spend an action in combat than to surge for another feat, etc just to use it next turn. For prepared casters like a wizard it's not very good because it's main utility has been expanded arcana to "know" more spells.


I love the Treantmonk Guide, but I have to agree with andreww here, it is very out of date. Feats like Dazing Spell, Rime Spell, Intensified Spell, Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, Varisian Tattoo, Bloatmage Initiate and traits like Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter make Evocation one of the strongest schools by far. I learned a lot about how to be effective not just with wizards but with all casters from that guide. Conjuration got much stronger too with spells like Create Pit and Pellet Blast. I find it good to read, but be aware that much of what he downrates has been vastly improved since CRB only days.


Claxon wrote:
Paragon Surge is really only useful if you're a cheesy half-elf spontaneous caster. Not that it's awful, but there are better ways to spend an action in combat than to surge for another feat, etc just to use it next turn. For prepared casters like a wizard it's not very good because it's main utility has been expanded arcana to "know" more spells.

Not so. If you are a wizard with Heighten Spell as a feat you can use it to gain the feat Preferred Spell. You can then convert existing spells into that spell and deal with the issue in front of you straight away without having to wait to rememorize, whether the next day or filling an open slot.

It is not as much of a benefit as it is for spontaneous casters but it can be extremely useful for prepared casters who really need some particular counter they cannot wait for.


Gregory Connolly wrote:
I find it good to read, but be aware that much of what he downrates has been vastly improved since CRB only days.

This for me is the big part where his guide fails to reflect current reality. He reams evocation which back then was entirely right. Nowadays Dazing spell makes evocation some of the most powerful control in the game as nothing is immune to daze and it can be attached to spells targeting any save. A crossblooded sorcerer dip also bumps the damage up to actual encounter relevant levels and admixture deals with resistance and immunity issues.

He also gives save or suck a pretty hard time because of the chance your spell will do nothing. This was always a dubious complaint as it isn't difficult to identify your targets and have a decent idea of their good and bad saves. You know not to try and Baleful Polymorph a Fire Giant but Hold Monster is a whole different ball game. Now however the addition of Persistent Spell means that the chances of a poor save making the DC are extremely low and even if you are left targeting a good save you have a decent chance of success.

Lets take a quick example. A level 8 Wizard with an Int of 24 (20 base, +2 levels, +2 headband) meets up with a CR10 fire giant. He is fairly down on spells but has Persistent Blindness prepared. He could be in trouble against the giants fort save of +14. His base DC is 19, lets say he has spell focus for 20. That spell is normally succeeding 25% of the time. Making it persistent turns that into a 44% chance of success. Not bad for targeting the strong save of a CR+2 opponent. If he uses Persistent Glitterdust instead you are looking at 50% and 75% respectively for the normal and persistent versions.

Persistent makes a huge difference to save or suck.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Paragon Surge is really only useful if you're a cheesy half-elf spontaneous caster. Not that it's awful, but there are better ways to spend an action in combat than to surge for another feat, etc just to use it next turn. For prepared casters like a wizard it's not very good because it's main utility has been expanded arcana to "know" more spells.

No, Paragon Surge is game-breaking. The only advantage that wizards have over sorcerers (besides skill points) is that wizards have access to all the great "out of combat" spells, while sorcerers only rock in combat.

This spell takes that advantage away. Heck, they don't even need to pay money to learn new spells. Sorcerers are now the power class.

This spell is broken and should be banned.


The #1 biggest beef i have with this board and many many many like it is its continued (albeit justified) obsession with Cojuration and summoning other beasties to do the work. I play with large parties anyway (5-9!) and 1 wizard adding a bunch of critters poses a few issues:

Combats lasting even longer. Even if the wizard is on top of his minions and knows all of his minion abilities his turns suddenly take at least 5 times longer. Moving pieces, positioning mooks, shooting lasers (if i see another lantern archon im gonna lost my mind) etc etc

It breaks encounters. Granted i can accommodate my combats for you summoning 1d4 lantern archons but then its FORCES you to use that tactic. Repeatedly. The already outclassed fighter will feel increasingly ineffective to your laser horde pew pew. It almost forces me to run people with dismissal mem'd

avoid conjuring every encounter please.


Wow! Thank you all. Gave me a bunch to chew on. I have scanned Treantmonk's guides to other classes, and have usually found good stuff there.

This was really just a thought exercise for me. I'm GMing currently, and it will be awhile before I get to play a character. I was just thinking how fun it would be to play a wizard who's a bit on the pacifistic side. What would he specialize in? And I considered generalist only as a "he researches everything, knowledge junkie" kind of guy. I just wanted to make sure that if I played a character like that in the future, that he wouldn't be a complete waste of space during combat. Using some of the spells you all have mentioned would fit the pacifistic side (especially using illusion to misdirect.)

So thanks again!


Gallyck wrote:

The #1 biggest beef i have with this board and many many many like it is its continued (albeit justified) obsession with Cojuration and summoning other beasties to do the work. I play with large parties anyway (5-9!) and 1 wizard adding a bunch of critters poses a few issues:

Combats lasting even longer. Even if the wizard is on top of his minions and knows all of his minion abilities his turns suddenly take at least 5 times longer. Moving pieces, positioning mooks, shooting lasers (if i see another lantern archon im gonna lost my mind) etc etc

It breaks encounters. Granted i can accommodate my combats for you summoning 1d4 lantern archons but then its FORCES you to use that tactic. Repeatedly. The already outclassed fighter will feel increasingly ineffective to your laser horde pew pew. It almost forces me to run people with dismissal mem'd

avoid conjuring every encounter please.

Honestly, straight up battlefield control is more potent than summons. The 1 round cast time on summons limits their impact on most battles when you could have just negated half of the encounter with a well placed Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud

Some people get to cheat the cast time of course but animal shaman druids are limited to SNA, sacred summons is really limited in what is caught and acadamae graduate risks fatiguing you which can be bad if you need to run for it.

Also I would be too worried about dismissal. Dispel Magic will get rid of summons and a protection from xx will prevent many of them from doing anything. Lantern Archons are great but very very fragile.

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