I have read several threads talking about this, but I wasn't sure exactly how you go about doing this. Do you literally mix them at the same time and just trade off what they are missing from the main class or is it something else?
Any and all information would be greatly appreciated!
Archetypes are modifiers applied to a class when you first take a level in that class. Once you have taken a specific flavor of class, you cannot take levels in any other flavor of the class. You cannot take a level in Fighter, then a level in Fighter (crossbowman). If you take a level in Fighter (crossbowman), you're bound to only levels of Fighter (crossbowman).
You can only layer archetypes so long as they are mutually exclusive. So if Archetype A replaces class abilities 1, 2, and 6 while Archetype B replaces class abilities 3 and 8, you can take levels in Class with Archetypes A, B and apply all the modifications. But if Archetype C replaces abilities 2, 5, and 7, you cannot combine it with A (though it can still be combined with B).
Bladebound Kensai Magus is what I have read about. Is that possible?
You can have more than one archetype of a single class, so long as neither archetype replaces or modifies the same thing.
The bladbound and kensai magus archetypes do not modify or replace the same base magus abilities and are therefore legal to work together.
MurphysParadox thought you were asking if you could take a level of Bladebound Magus and a level of Kensai Magus without the two overlapping, being a 2nd level character with two "different" levels in the same class.
Yup.
Bladebound modifies the Arcane Pool feature. Kensai swaps out a pile of other things but does not modify Arcane Pool. So there is no overlap. Thus you can be a Bladebound Kensai Magus.
As an alternative example, you cannot be a Soulforger Kensai because they both modify or change several of the same base Magus abilities (such as Spell Recall).
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Practical example:
Fighters gain...
- A bonus feat @ 1st level
- Bravery +1 & a bonus feat @ 2nd level
- Armor Training 1 @ 3rd level
- A bonus feat @ 4th level
- Weapon Training @ 5th level
- Bravery +2 & a bonus feat @ 6th level
- Armor Training 2 @ 7th level
- A bonus feat @ 8th level
- Weapon Training @ 9th level
- Bravery +3 & a bonus feat @ 10th level
etc.
The Dawnflower Dervish archetype replaces Armor Training 1-4.
If you take that archetype, you'd instead gain the listed replacements at 3rd/7th/11th/and 15th level.
In all other ways, you are a Fighter, with the Dawnflower Dervish archetype.
If you wanted to add another archetype to the mix, you could only choose one that didn't modify or replace Armor Training, since you already did that with the Dawnflower Dervish.
So, you couldn't choose the Archer archetype, because that trades out Armor Training for the Trick Shot ability.
But, you could pick up the Armor Master archetype, because it modifies other class features, and not Armor Training.
You'd then be a Fighter, with the Dawnflower Dervish and Armor Master archetypes. You wouldn't resemble the base Fighter much anymore (other than BAB, Saves, skill points, and bonus feats), but you'd have a slew of different abilities that would set you apart from most other Fighters.
EDIT: Ninjas abound.
Ok, now for the real question I guess...any idea if Bladebound Kensai is functional at all or is it just sort of a meh way to go?
It's pretty good at mid levels, drops off at higher levels as your weapon is actually weaker than high-end magical weapons (even with the scaling).
However, you can compensate for this easily by using the money you save NOT buying/upgrading a magic weapon, to purchase other useful magic items that boost you attack potential such as a belt of giants strength+6 or stat boost tomes, etc.
Its also very fun to play a character who verbally argues with his weapon all the time...
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It's pretty good at mid levels, drops off at higher levels as your weapon is actually weaker than high-end magical weapons (even with the scaling).
Want to explain that? At what point does the Black Blade lose ground over what a non-Blade Bound PC is going to buy in magic weapons?
Remember: As a Magus, you can spend an arcane pool point, as a swift action, to effectively double your weapon's enhancements for a combat.
3rd level: +1 weapon, boostable to +2 for several minutes.
5th level: +2 weapon, boostable with +2 worth of enhancements
9th level: +3 weapon, boostable with +3 worth of enhancements
13th level: +4 weapon, boostable with +4 worth of enhancements
17th level: +5 weapon, boostable with up to +5 worth of enhancements
The list is limited, but there are arcana that can add additional options.
How is it for the early levels (say up to 6 or so)?
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It's pretty good at mid levels, drops off at higher levels as your weapon is actually weaker than high-end magical weapons (even with the scaling).Want to explain that? At what point does the Black Blade lose ground over what a non-Blade Bound PC is going to buy in magic weapons?
Remember: As a Magus, you can spend an arcane pool point, as a swift action, to effectively double your weapon's enhancements for a combat.
3rd level: +1 weapon, boostable to +2 for several minutes.
5th level: +2 weapon, boostable with +2 worth of enhancements
9th level: +3 weapon, boostable with +3 worth of enhancements
13th level: +4 weapon, boostable with +4 worth of enhancements
17th level: +5 weapon, boostable with up to +5 worth of enhancementsThe list is limited, but there are arcana that can add additional options.
You are somewhat limited by the kind of enhancement you can add (the best enhancements require you to spend an arcana at high level) and the number of arcana you have. And you can't add the fired price abilities at all.
The number of arcana point that you have available is limited and you recover them when you memorize your spells, so recovering them isn't a granted thing (it has happened 2 times in 8 levels so far, but you notice it when it happen).A "regular" magus would buy a +1 keen scimitar as soon as possible (generally it is affordable at level 6+) and would use his arcane pool to enhance the to hit and damage of the weapon, a bladebound magus would do the opposite. Generally it is more useful to have a +1 keen weapon than a +2 weapon (the magus can make his weapon keen from level 5+ onward). Both will have a +3 keen weapon spending a arcane point.
Adding Holy to your list of options require you to spend an arcana and to have reached level 12, Bane require an arcana and level 15.
Both are abilities that, in a appropriate campaign, can be good choices as fixed weapon enhancements.
Then there is the problem that using them cost an extra arcana point. If you use spell recall or some other magus ability they aren't so abundant.
Note that "3rd level: +1 weapon, boostable to +2 for several minutes." require you to spend 1 arcana point/minute. At level 3 a Bladebound magus has 1 + his intelligence bonus in arcana points. At level 4 he get a extra arcana point if he is spending his favored class bonus to get them.
A bladebound magus can't take extra arcana until he get to level 6, so he can't take enduring blade before that (he has traded away the feature at level 3 for his black blade).
It is a trade off. You exchange at least 1 arcana and some arcana point to get a +X weapon for free while another magus could customize his constant weapon powers and add some straight +X or other powers when needed.
Remember that Greater magic weapon is on the magus list too, so he can use that spell some of the +x points too.
Summing up all the above a bladebound magus can be a bit weaker than a normal magus at higher level, but that depend on the kind of campaign you are playing. If money is abundant and/or you have easy access to magic markets the black blade benefits aren't so stellar. If money is tight, you don't have the time to enchant your weapon and there are few magic markets or the available choices don't suit you the BB benefits become very important.
How is it for the early levels (say up to 6 or so)?
I'd say all in all it should work out well. But you start with very little AC as a kensai.
Diego makes great points, but he left off a major boon to the black blade that, while the normal magus can also do this to an extent, is much more limited because of the fact that a normal magic item always has its enchantments on and thus is always taking up +x worth of stuff.
Let's say I come across an incoporial creature. Both maguses have the arcana Ghost Blade which adds ghost touch and brilliant energy to their list of things to add with arcane pool. If the normal magus has a +3 flaming keen bane scimitar then even though he has the ability to add ghost touch to it, he can't because its not possible to make the enchantment bonus higher than 5. Because the black blade never adds enchantments, only enhancements, not only dies it save you money, it also keeps your versatility perfect. You are always prepared for situations when they arise because you can fully adjust as needed with no restrictions. A normal maguses arcane pool options always become more limited every time he upgrades his weapon.
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Diego makes great points, but he left off a major boon to the black blade that, while the normal magus can also do this to an extent, is much more limited because of the fact that a normal magic item always has its enchantments on and thus is always taking up +x worth of stuff.
Let's say I come across an incoporial creature. Both maguses have the arcana Ghost Blade which adds ghost touch and brilliant energy to their list of things to add with arcane pool. If the normal magus has a +3 flaming keen bane scimitar then even though he has the ability to add ghost touch to it, he can't because its not possible to make the enchantment bonus higher than 5. Because the black blade never adds enchantments, only enhancements, not only dies it save you money, it also keeps your versatility perfect. You are always prepared for situations when they arise because you can fully adjust as needed with no restrictions. A normal maguses arcane pool options always become more limited every time he upgrades his weapon.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
I think you are confusing Enhancement Bonuses that increases Attack/Damage with Weapon Ability Bonuses that adds special stuff, like Flaming and Ghost Touch. The limitation that the Magus Arcane Pool has is that you can add Enhancement Bonuses to your weapon (up to a +5 So-and-so Weapon), but you can not have something like a +7 Weapon.
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I think you are confusing Enhancement Bonuses that increases Attack/Damage with Weapon Ability Bonuses that adds special stuff, like Flaming and Ghost Touch. The limitation that the Magus Arcane Pool has is that you can add Enhancement Bonuses to your weapon (up to a +5 So-and-so Weapon), but you can not have something like a +7 Weapon.
No, because if the non-bladebound magus had the +3 flaming keen bane scimitar, he couldn't add Ghost Touch because he's not got enough points left... he'd exceed the +10 limit... However, the bladebound magus with his +3 black blade could add Ghost Touch and brilliant energy to his black blade. He couldn't however add all the others (and since "bane" is also an arcana, I think I can assume that neither magus has the ability to add bane in his example)
At least, that's what I got from his post... I could be misunderstanding his meaning myself.
Yes. Your total amount of enhancement and enchantments is not allowed to go beyond a total of +10 (with enchanement maxing out at +5 of that total) so with the above mentioned situation, you would be trying to go beyond +10 which is not allowed by the rules. A black blade can ALWAYS have up to +5 total available to mix/match as needed whenever nessessary with arcane pool. Unless the normal magus intentionally keeps his enhancement bonus low (like at +1) and puts nothing but enchantments on the weapon up to whatever he can (let's say +5, for a total of +6) and "normally" only uses arcane pool to add a +4 and then has the option if using those +4 for anything else when the situation arises, but at the expense of lower to-hit chance, then you essentially can't maximize as well as you think you can.
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I think you are confusing Enhancement Bonuses that increases Attack/Damage with Weapon Ability Bonuses that adds special stuff, like Flaming and Ghost Touch. The limitation that the Magus Arcane Pool has is that you can add Enhancement Bonuses to your weapon (up to a +5 So-and-so Weapon), but you can not have something like a +7 Weapon.No, because if the non-bladebound magus had the +3 flaming keen bane scimitar, he couldn't add Ghost Touch because he's not got enough points left... he'd exceed the +10 limit... However, the bladebound magus with his +3 black blade could add Ghost Touch and brilliant energy to his black blade. He couldn't however add all the others (and since "bane" is also an arcana, I think I can assume that neither magus has the ability to add bane in his example)
At least, that's what I got from his post... I could be misunderstanding his meaning myself.
+3 = 3 points
flaming = 1 pointkeen = 1 point
bane = 1 point
The base weapon has 3 point of enhancements and 3 points of special abilities, for a total of 6 point of abilities.
Ghost touch only cost 1 point, you bring the weapon to a total of a +3 enhancement and 4 points of special abilities, for a total of +7, amply within the weapon limits.
Nothing stop you from adding less that the maximum allowed by your arcane pool ability, so the guy with the +3 flaming keen bane scimitar can add to it, simply he can add "only" 4 points of abilities, not 5.
On the other hand he has a unimproved weapon with a total equivalent enhancement of +6, not +5.
If we are playing at a level where a character has a +6 equivalent weapon there are good chances that someone in the party has found a special weapon thematically linked to the campaign. At least in the AP that is fairly common in the 4th or 5th module. A regular magus could benefit from it, a bladebound can't unless he is willing to renounce to one of his major class features.
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Yes. Your total amount of enhancement and enchantments is not allowed to go beyond a total of +10 (with enchanement maxing out at +5 of that total) so with the above mentioned situation, you would be trying to go beyond +10 which is not allowed by the rules. A black blade can ALWAYS have up to +5 total available to mix/match as needed whenever nessessary with arcane pool. Unless the normal magus intentionally keeps his enhancement bonus low (like at +1) and puts nothing but enchantments on the weapon up to whatever he can (let's say +5, for a total of +6) and "normally" only uses arcane pool to add a +4 and then has the option if using those +4 for anything else when the situation arises, but at the expense of lower to-hit chance, then you essentially can't maximize as well as you think you can.
Greater magic weapon.
With the plethora of abilities that add powers to the weapons someday Paizo will have to give us a rule of what happen when you add powers that would bring a weapon abilities above +10.
You can't sue the spell/ability at all or you can choose what is suppressed to stay within the +10 limit (i.e. flaming is not useful against this opponent, I will overwrite it with for the duration of the arcane pool ability with ability X)
i apologize, i didnt research enough before making statement. i was under the impression that Ghost Touch was a +4 like its counterpart Brilliant Energy. sorry. but substitute Brilliant Energy into my scenario with an alreay +7 weapon and you begin to see my point. a +4 keen flaming bane weapon cant have Brilliant Energy added to it with arcane pool.
Diego Rossi - you cant suppress an ability on a weapon in order to add something else temporarily. even if you deactivate it with its command word (or however it gets turned off) it still counts towards the total bonus. and just so you know, there is no need for clarification on what happens when you go beyond +10. its simple: you cant. everything that lets you add bonuses clearly states that you cant go beyond the +5 enhancement, or +10 total enchantment for a given item. there doesnt need to be a rule made for it. its already there.
Another question: Can you combine an archetype that only modify the level you access a class feature and an archetype that modify the same class feature.
Example:
Hospitalier paladin (move the level you access smite evil)
And Oath of Loyalty (Change smite evil).
If yes, how do they interact with each other ?
Another question: Can you combine an archetype that only modify the level you access a class feature and an archetype that modify the same class feature.
No, they both modify the same class feature.
It doesn't matter how they modify the class feature, you can't combine two archetypes if they change or remove the same class feature.
However, as a clarification to MurphysParadox' post, you can add an archetype (or compatible second archetype) after taking your first level in the class, so long as it doesn't change any class features that you have already acquired.
For example, if you start out as an Urban Barbarian, you can decide (before taking your 2nd level in Barbarian) to add the Savage Pugilist archetype, since the first class feature it changes is Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level.
However, as a clarification to MurphysParadox' post, you can add an archetype (or compatible second archetype) after taking your first level in the class, so long as it doesn't change any class features that you have already acquired.
For example, if you start out as an Urban Barbarian, you can decide (before taking your 2nd level in Barbarian) to add the Savage Pugilist archetype, since the first class feature it changes is Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level.
Hey Majuba, that is actually a PFS houserule, not RAW =/.
Well yeah...there is that...but I'm sure any decent gm could come up with a gloves slot item (ohh wait, there's already a ring) to fix this for the bladebound
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i apologize, i didnt research enough before making statement. i was under the impression that Ghost Touch was a +4 like its counterpart Brilliant Energy. sorry. but substitute Brilliant Energy into my scenario with an alreay +7 weapon and you begin to see my point. a +4 keen flaming bane weapon cant have Brilliant Energy added to it with arcane pool.
Diego Rossi - you cant suppress an ability on a weapon in order to add something else temporarily. even if you deactivate it with its command word (or however it gets turned off) it still counts towards the total bonus. and just so you know, there is no need for clarification on what happens when you go beyond +10. its simple: you cant. everything that lets you add bonuses clearly states that you cant go beyond the +5 enhancement, or +10 total enchantment for a given item. there doesnt need to be a rule made for it. its already there.
You assume something that is not spelled into the rules.
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
A+B can't be superior to 10. End of the rule. Nothing say you should add first A, then B. Nothing say that the way to comply with the +10 cap is to take A and then add as much of B as possible.
It can be as easily add A and B, then remove enough of one of them that the total is 10.Seeing how the class abilities that enhance weapons work it can be a reasonable interpretation. Some of those abilities don't give an option to add less than the whole bonus of the ability, so what happen when you use them? The weapon disappear in a rule black hole as its enhancement can't go over +10 but you can't use less than your full bonus?
Your argument has no grounds in the rules. Show me where is says that I can apply something like greater magic weapon (for a total of a +5) to a weapon that already has a +1 or higher bonus, please. Its not in the rules for a simple reason: you can't freaking do it. You cannot just turn off a bonus in order to apply a different one unless the new one specifically says it overrides the existing one. Just because you don't want to use a specific bonus, for whatever reason, doesn't mean you don't have to. Alternately, if you have a +2 weapon with a total of +8 levels of enchantments, there is no possible way to increase your +2 to a +5. Period, nothing in the rules would allow you to make any of those +8 worth of enchantments not count if you want to add anything via a spell/ability. White simply, you cannot modify that weapon in any way, ever, without re-crafting it.
Its thus simple: if the rules don't say you CAN do something, then you CAN'T. Its not the other way around.
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A+B can't be superior to 10. End of the rule. Nothing say you should add first A, then B. Nothing say that the way to comply with the +10 cap is to take A and then add as much of B as possible.
It can be as easily add A and B, then remove enough of one of them that the total is 10.
The bonuses permanently belonging the the weapon are naturally there first. They are present before the temporary bonus is added. Nothing says that you can remove bonuses belonging to a weapon in order to add different temporary bonuses. Thus we should assume that you can't. (In particular, there's nothing directing you how to remove/suppress those permanent bonuses - do you remove enhancement bonuses first, or special abilities? Randomly, or wielder chooses?)
Thus a +5 flaming keen weapon can't have a +4 quality like Brilliant Energy temporarily added to it.
Well yeah...there is that...but I'm sure any decent gm could come up with a gloves slot item (ohh wait, there's already a ring) to fix this for the bladebound"Decent GMs" aren't ones that allow you to circumvent the consequences of what are supposed to be major character choices.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't call not being able to "nova" because I made a bladebound a character choice, personally. That's more of a flavor thing in my opinion, and as such was what I was trying to go for in that statement. I see your point, though.
That said, there are still ways to nova with a black blade because it IS an intelegent item, its quite possible (with gm approval) to teach it to cast spells and effectively accomplish the same thing.
A+B can't be superior to 10. End of the rule. Nothing say you should add first A, then B. Nothing say that the way to comply with the +10 cap is to take A and then add as much of B as possible.
It can be as easily add A and B, then remove enough of one of them that the total is 10.
The bonuses permanently belonging the the weapon are naturally there first. They are present before the temporary bonus is added. Nothing says that you can remove bonuses belonging to a weapon in order to add different temporary bonuses. Thus we should assume that you can't. (In particular, there's nothing directing you how to remove/suppress those permanent bonuses - do you remove enhancement bonuses first, or special abilities? Randomly, or wielder chooses?)
Thus a +5 flaming keen weapon can't have a +4 quality like Brilliant Energy temporarily added to it.
You are much better at getting my point across then I am...thank you. This was what I was trying to say.
True. But again, my original point still stands. There are things a blade bound CSB do, a normal magus can't, and the other way around. Its a good give/take. So really personal preference.
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Your argument has no grounds in the rules. Show me where is says that I can apply something like greater magic weapon (for a total of a +5) to a weapon that already has a +1 or higher bonus, please. Its not in the rules for a simple reason: you can't freaking do it.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Page 13 of the CRB.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same thing for spells and general bonuses.
Greater magic weapon is a enhancement bonus, the +1 of the weapon is an enhancement bonus. They overlap.
I can do it.
You cannot just turn off a bonus in order to apply a different one unless the new one specifically says it overrides the existing one. Just because you don't want to use a specific bonus, for whatever reason, doesn't mean you don't have to. Alternately, if you have a +2 weapon with a total of +8 levels of enchantments, there is no possible way to increase your +2 to a +5. Period, nothing in the rules would allow you to make any of those +8 worth of enchantments not count if you want to add anything via a spell/ability. White simply, you cannot modify that weapon in any way, ever, without re-crafting it.Its thus simple: if the rules don't say you CAN do something, then you CAN'T. Its not the other way around.
Actually the rules don't say that. It can be RAI, but RAW they say that the total can't be higher than +10. Period.
There isn't a procedure to follow when applying powers, only a maximum limit.
The bonuses permanently belonging the the weapon are naturally there first.
There is no rule that say that having something there first stop you from adding something later. Actually we have some rule that say exactly the opposite, that we can add things later that can overlap the previous bonus.
Your interpretation come naturally, but it is RAI, not RAW, until some developer say the opposite.
As the goal of the rules isn't to remove class features as you raise in level, I doubt the developers will ever say that. I think it is way more probable that someday they will give us a rule on how we should go around deciding how the powers stack and what would not work.
The most probable answer will be that the magus would be capable to add only as many point as there are free "slots" in the weapon, until it reach the +10 cap, but that isn't the only possible answer.
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A+B can't be superior to 10. End of the rule. Nothing say you should add first A, then B. Nothing say that the way to comply with the +10 cap is to take A and then add as much of B as possible.
It can be as easily add A and B, then remove enough of one of them that the total is 10.
The bonuses permanently belonging the the weapon are naturally there first. They are present before the temporary bonus is added. Nothing says that you can remove bonuses belonging to a weapon in order to add different temporary bonuses. Thus we should assume that you can't. (In particular, there's nothing directing you how to remove/suppress those permanent bonuses - do you remove enhancement bonuses first, or special abilities? Randomly, or wielder chooses?)
Thus a +5 flaming keen weapon can't have a +4 quality like Brilliant Energy temporarily added to it.
Let's push that idea to the limit and see what happen.
High level campaign, level 20 characters. We step away from the magus, one is a wizard the other a fighter specialized in archery.The wizard take the archer cold iron arrows and cast greater magic weapon +5 and keen edge on them. 6 points of abilities
But the archer want to be the perfect undead hunter, so his bow is a +1, holy, undead bane, ghost touch, flaming burst weapon. A +1 and 6 points of special abilities.
Now the archer notch his arrow and fire.
The bow power are transferred to the arrow, but the +10 limit apply to it.
+1 vs +5, no problem they overlap, total 5 points.
Keen edge, holy, undead bane, ghost touch, flaming burst, 7 points of special abilities.
You can't have a +12 arrows so something should not work.
The enchantments on the arrow were there first, so, by your rule, the bow powers stop working as soon as the archer notch the arrow.
A temporary enhancement stop a magic weapon from working.
Maybe the longer lasting enhancement should win? Hmm, not good. If the arrow miss it can eb retrieved, the greater magic weapon spell will still be there, but the bonuses given by the bow don't.
The permanent effect should win? Same problem, the effect on the arrow of the bow enhancement isn't permanent.
As you see, it is not as clear cut as you think.
very well put D.R.
however, i will concede that the enhancement bonuses "overlap", but lets go back to the arcane pool for a minute, shall we...
lets say i am again a level 20 character. this time full magus. im just like the above mentioned fighter, i like enchantments alot, and dont care too much about my +to hit. so my bought and paid for weapon is a +1 flaming burst, shocking burst, keen, speed longsword. total value +9.
now i want to use my arcane pool to apply something else to it. well for starters, by "strict RAW", when using the arcane pool class ability, it does not say that the bonus to enchantment can be lowered at the users will. so if i wanted to add only an enhancement bonus and nothing else, at 20th level, i have no choice but to apply the full +5.
no big deal though, because i can take away from that +5 by swapping out for a special weapon ability, so im fine there, right? but wait, if i want to do this than i have to swap out +4 of all this into special abilities because my weapon is already +9 and i cant go beyond that.
so now what do i do with this +4 i have to make into special abilities? ohh, ill just turn it into brilliant energy (cause i have that arcana).
well, crap, my weapon is still technically a +14 right now. so how do i choose which of these properties dont apply? the temporary one - brilliant energy - that i was forced to apply because i had no choice but to use all 5 points from the class ability, or do i somehow temporarily make flaming burst and shocking burst not part of the weapon? well they arn't listed as a specific type of bonus like an enhancement bonus, so they must stack. but i cant stack past +10, so what happens? i don't know because the rules dont cover this...
do i leave it up to the player what applies and what doesn't? that gives the player ALOT more power than some GM's think they should have. especially considering certain things might be immune to some of those effects like flaming burst, or even worse, might BENEFIT from being hit by them until the player deactivates it with a command word.
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now, after all that said, do i believe that it is RAI to FORCE a player to HAVE to use all 5 points when using arcane pool? no, thats dumb and i would never require it. but none the less, the class ability does not make mention of applying its effect partially except in the case of stacking enhancement bonuses not being able to exceed +5. but that is just reiterating the general rule laid forth in the magical weapons section of the CRB. thats not even new.
which, by the way, now that i've said that, this is also a case where two of the same type of bonus (enhancement) DO stack. because they stack, shouldn't that mean that they DON'T use the "highest bonus applies" part? i would think so.
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i don't know because the rules dont cover this...
Exactly my point. The rules don't cover this. They say that there is a limit, but they don't say what procedure you should use to respect it.
now, after all that said, do i believe that it is RAI to FORCE a player to HAVE to use all 5 points when using arcane pool? no, thats dumb and i would never require it. but none the less, the class ability does not make mention of applying its effect partially except in the case of stacking enhancement bonuses not being able to exceed +5. but that is just reiterating the general rule laid forth in the magical weapons section of the CRB. thats not even new.
For spells the rules say that you can cast them at a lower level than your actual caster level. The only requirement is to cast them at a CL high enough to be able to cast the spell.
For abilities it should work the same way.
i don't know because the rules dont cover this...Exactly my point. The rules don't cover this. They say that there is a limit, but they don't say what procedure you should use to respect it.
now, after all that said, do i believe that it is RAI to FORCE a player to HAVE to use all 5 points when using arcane pool? no, thats dumb and i would never require it. but none the less, the class ability does not make mention of applying its effect partially except in the case of stacking enhancement bonuses not being able to exceed +5. but that is just reiterating the general rule laid forth in the magical weapons section of the CRB. thats not even new.For spells the rules say that you can cast them at a lower level than your actual caster level. The only requirement is to cast them at a CL high enough to be able to cast the spell.
For abilities it should work the same way.
no, the rules DONT cover it. and as we all know, the rules in pathfinder are restrictive, meaning that unless the rules say you CAN do it, it must be assumed that you CANT. therefore you simply cannot do it.
for spells there might be rules governing how to deal with this issue, for magic weapon enchantment, there is no rule. that means you just cant do it. if a situation arises like this in a home game, should the player and GM discuss a fair and reasonable solution to it, sure. but strictly RAW, the only possible solution is that if you have a +6 or highter weapon and are attempting to use arcane pool to add +5 it just cant be done. no matter how you rearrange the points allotted from arcane pool, there are still 5 of them, and you MUST use all 5, per RAW.
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For spells there might be rules governing how to deal with this issue, for magic weapon enchantment, there is no rule. that means you just cant do it. if a situation arises like this in a home game, should the player and GM discuss a fair and reasonable solution to it, sure. but strictly RAW, the only possible solution is that if you have a +6 or highter weapon and are attempting to use arcane pool to add +5 it just cant be done. no matter how you rearrange the points allotted from arcane pool, there are still 5 of them, and you MUST use all 5, per RAW.
Actually for a magus it is quite simple to resolve that problem: you duplicate some existing power. They overlaps but don't stack, so his weapon don't get above the +10 limit.
The archer in my above example instead can't do that. Both the bow and the arrow follow perfectly the rules, but combined they break them without a rule on how that should be resolved.
You are saying that some force stop the archer from notching a arrow with 6+ levels of enhancements and powers to a bow with 6+ levels of enhancements and different powers?
I don't know that, yet. Could you cite to the rule that says this?
no, the rules DONT cover it. and as we all know, the rules in pathfinder are restrictive, meaning that unless the rules say you CAN do it, it must be assumed that you CANT. therefore you simply cannot do it.
its not in the rules somewhere that can be quoted like "If we didnt write it, it cant happen". it's in the rules everywhere, in that if a rule says "you can do this" thats ALL you can do. so for example, the rule says the following:
"you may use this ability up to 3 times per day"
this rule does NOT say you can use this ability more than 3 times per day. it does NOT say you can use this other, completely unrelated thing, 3 times per day. and it does NOT say you can use this ability in conjunction with anything else. it ONLY lets you use this ability "up to 3 times per day", nothing more, nothing less.
the rules are allowances. the ALLOW you to do what they say. if they dont say it, you cant do it.
[Edit] to be honest, i really wish the developers would actually make an FAQ about this, so that people can stop saying "we'll magic missile doesn't say i CAN'T push someone away like a bullrush when i fire it at them, so why can't i?"
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I think it's more accurate to say "The RAW PF is restrictive, but Rule 0."
Pathfinder can't possibly describe every potential action a character might take. Thus it sets up "core rules" describing the most likely actions a PC will take, the baseline understanding for the game. There's a lot of generalization so that a number of related situations can be handled using the same mechanic. But because it's just as impossible to describe every action a PC can't take as it is to describe every action a PC can take, the RAW as a stand-alone entity has to be restrictive. Otherwise players will be able to argue that Grease has to be flammable, that Magic Missile has to allow a Bull Rush maneuver, that the wings from their sorcerer bloodline or racial feat have to come with a natural attack.
But because PF has a GM and not just a computer program merrily executing RAW, the Rules as Practiced are much more flexible. The game explicitly relies on the GM to adjudicate anything not covered by the core rules, and the core rules remind us of this. For example, Dirty Trick says "The GM is the arbiter of what can be accomplished with this maneuver," and the custom item guidelines remind players to check with their GM. The "how to use FAQ" post even re-affirms that "It is not intended to create official rulings for every possible corner case or combination of the rules. Paizo firmly believes it is the privilege and responsibility of the GM to make rulings for unusual circumstances or unusual characters."
So what is actually practiced is:
If the rules don't say you can do something, assume you can't UNLESS the GM says you can.
Conversely, if the rules say you can do something, assume you can UNLESS the GM says you can't. (Remember, Rule 0 works in two directions.)
How this relates to the issue above will need to wait for the morning...
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I have read several threads talking about this, but I wasn't sure exactly how you go about doing this. Do you literally mix them at the same time and just trade off what they are missing from the main class or is it something else?
Any and all information would be greatly appreciated!
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?229326-PF-Archetype-Combos-Do ing-all-the-work-b-c-reading-charts-is-bloody-annoying&p=12555815#post1 2555815
Herolab ;-)
For an extreme example: So far as I can tell, RAW, there's virtually no way to ignite most things without significant fire damage, because there are rules only for igniting light sources and the like. I couldn't even find a rule under which gunpowder would be ignited if you poured it on lava.
You can make an unattended Fine flammable object catch on fire. This works as if you were using flint and steel except that you can use spark in any sort of weather and it takes much less time to actually ignite an object.
Lighting a torch with a flint and steel is a full-round action. Lighting any other fire with them takes at least that long.
The rules for setting stuff on fire are not very detailed but they exist. You can use flint and steel to start fires and it takes at least one full round, maybe longer. And if what you want to burn is fine sized or smaller you can use the spark cantrip instead.
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For an extreme example: So far as I can tell, RAW, there's virtually no way to ignite most things without significant fire damage, because there are rules only for igniting light sources and the like. I couldn't even find a rule under which gunpowder would be ignited if you poured it on lava.
But we sort of assume that you can in fact ignite things, and that things will usually maintain their usual properties. But if we were dogmatically restrictive, we would conclude that the Pathfinder setting is the safest humans have ever lived in, because there is no way for a house to burn down.
This is actually a really good example for why (1) strict RAW in and of itself logically has to be restrictive and (2) a strict RAW game with no GM interpretation is impossible, or at least undesirable.
Let's say RAW is permissive. It doesn't say you can't burn down a house with a torch, so you can. But how? How long does it take to ignite? Do you have to apply the torch for the entire duration, or does it become self-sustaining at some point? What about if you want to rig gunpowder and a fuse to detonate the whole thing? By allowing an action without specifying how it is achieved, executing the action with permissive strict RAW fails here.
If strict RAW is restrictive, then because it doesn't say you can burn down a house with a torch, you can't. You don't fall into any problems with allowing a thing but not describing how. It's not terribly satisfying, but it works.
And if we consider that this works the same way whether the house is made of wood or stone, it's obvious that the latter is preferable. Both may sometimes lead to an undesirable conclusion: restrictive RAW does not allow burning a wooden house, and permissive RAW does allow burning a stone house. But only restrictive RAW actually functions as a strict rule set.
Now, this doesn't result in a satisfying or realistic game, so in actual play we invoke the almighty GM and ask him/her to Rule 0 our arson attempt, by permitting it if reasonable (the house is wood) and describing how this will work. And this dependence on the GM is explicitly invoked in the only RAW discussion we have on materials of varying flammability. Under damaging objects: "Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily."
But this doesn't make RAW permissive. It allows the GM to be permissive where RAW is insufficient.
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Right, so the Magus arcane pool.
Same thing for spells and general bonuses.
Greater magic weapon is a enhancement bonus, the +1 of the weapon is an enhancement bonus. They overlap.
I can do it.
...
There is no rule that say that having something there first stop you from adding something later. Actually we have some rule that say exactly the opposite, that we can add things later that can overlap the previous bonus.
The problem is that the rules sections you quote don't address the problem of running into a "total bonus cap."
You can certainly cast GMW (+5) on a +2 flaming burst sword and get a +5 flaming burst sword due to overlap of the enhancement bonuses. But you can't cast GMW (+5) on a +2 flaming burst vorpal sword and get a +5 flaming burst vorpal sword because you've exceeded the total bonus cap.
Since there's no rule for suppressing a property on the sword to get a +5 vorpal sword (or a +5 flaming burst sword), we must assume that adding the property (extra enhancement bonus) is not allowed.
(In the case of magic bows and magic arrows, it appears that the bonus from the bow is added to the arrow on firing the arrow, so the bow's bonus is the last applied - meaning it can't be added to a +10 equivalent arrow even if the bow is permanently magic and the arrow is temporarily enhanced.)
Now, you can voluntarily reduce the caster level on a spell to get a +3 flaming burst vorpal sword (though this also reduces duration). A friendly GM might give you the full duration anyway, or let a magus to apply less than the full benefit of their arcane pool. A very friendly GM might let you suppress the powers on your weapon, whether at your choice, randomly, starting with the most expensive property (in this case, vorpal), or some other method. I personally think a choice between applying less bonus than you're entitled or losing the most powerful property on your weapon sounds about right.
But the conclusion most in line with the strict RAW is that the new bonus simply does not stick.
As the goal of the rules isn't to remove class features as you raise in level, I doubt the developers will ever say that.
It doesn't remove class features, it encourages smart use of resources. You can't wear a Headband of Int and a Headband of Wis at the same time. Mage Armour doesn't stack with Bracers of Armour. A Keen Weapon doesn't stack with the Improved Critical feat. Characters who have one of the two gain little or no benefit from the other. Smart play means spending resources on items and abilities that can be used effectively together rather than ones that can't.
Thus a character with the ability to enhance their weapon, whether by Arcane Pool or Divine Bond or Greater Magic Weapon, should not invest so much gold in magic weapons that they do not benefit from these other abilities. Characters with very expensive bows shouldn't buy very expensive arrows, and vice-versa. There are plenty of other things you can spend gold on besides a +10 (or almost +10) weapon.