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I really need advice on what build I should go with... basing this off of knowing we will reach level 17-18 in this adventure path.
Essentially, what I'm going for is a Human(standard) Monk or Monk/Druid for a Rise of the Runelords Campaign. I'm extremely torn on what I should go with.
Party Composition:
Fighter/Alchemist
Rogue(I think he's torn between Sniper and Poisoner)
Abyssal Sorcerer
Life Oracle
I'll post the two builds(google docs) down below after a short description of function.
For the Mostly Monk build; He is a Flowing and Qinggong Archetype. He will be based around high defenses, Dex/Wis build with Weapon Finesse, working primarily off of Unarmed Strike(after he obtains an AoMF), using Guided on his weapon(s). He is mostly centered around not being hit, and returning attacks through Snake Fang. Whether that hit be damage, a combat maneuver, a stunning fist, etc. My main concern isn't damage, as either way I'll have a plethora. He will take one level of Wizard and one level of Druid - for both using Wands from those spell lists(strong jaw, mirror image, shield, and mage armor being the most important), and he benefits from the quirky little perks from their level 1 abilities. Also, he would gain access to the Repose domain, and after combining that with the Conductive property on his AoMF, he could also Stagger his foes.
For the Monk/Druid build; It's both Flowing and Qinggong Archetype as well. The Druid will take the Plant Domain. He will also be Dex/Wis build, with Weapon Finesse. He will be based around high defenses and primarily using Unarmed Strike(after he obtains an AoMF, and using Guided on his weapon(s). He is mostly centered, again, around not being hit, and returning attacks through Snake Fang. Whether that hit be damage, a combat maneuver, stunning fist, etc. The only difference in this build, is obviously a "slower" growth, the addition of up to level 4 Druid Spells, and the ability to Wildshape. Going by Wisdom for attack/damage, Wildshape would work well for any form I take; Though, I am considering sticking to Agile instead so I can really benefit from the extra Agility in Fire and Air Elemental Body... but then it would really hurt to use Beast Shape. Wisdom feels like a great median.
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I highly recommend Qinggong Archetype. Restoration will be a god Send this campaign as well as Bark skin, and Gaseous form. Do not give up abundant step.....this will be highly needed to get through walls, Close distance on a mage, and getting to someone.
I would go STR/Wis Monk tho and do damage with Dragon Ferocity.
I like the flowing monk archetype but having played through RoTRL i will say stunning fist can end some encounters with Caster types so giving it up will be hard. Secondly you will be facing some rather nasty creatures: (Giants/dragons/outsiders/undead) Gonna be hard getting the most out of Combat maneuvers without being Enlarged and with a STRONG str and wis. Volley spell will be useful but I'm gonna be honest the Mages in this campaign are monsters and will break your spell resistance....escpically the Rune Lord. So I feel you wont get a chance to rebound much back on them. But you will have nice saves for the campaign. But Might I recommend going Dwarf? Hardy is amazing and the trait Glory of Old makes you get +3 against poisons, Spells, and Spell like abilities (80% of your saves) and the +3 will be welcomed throughout the campaign.
Lastly after looking at your builds a few things are off as you don't qualify for them at some of the levels on your chart. You have restoration at level 6 and you can't get it till 11th level of MONK...so dipping Wizard and Druid you wont get it till level 14. Also retraining will be hard because there are parts of this campaign that rush you to the next phase constantly as your racing against a doom clock half the time. If your GM allows it then use retraining of course but I know Our group had very little down time to craft even too many scrolls.
I will give you 2 decent builds for a monk though one of my own and another I came across in another Thread from a guy named XMorsX that dips 2 levels of cleric for a lot more benefits besides just wand/scroll use.
Dwarf
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 18
CHA 5
A possible build is:
Crusader Cleric of Irori 2 / Martial Artist 10
Traits: Quain Martial Artist, Fate's Favored (doubles the bonus Divine Favor grants you)
Strengh domain
1 Cleric Channel Smite, Weapon Focus (IUS) (bonus)
2 Cleric
3 Monk Guided Hand, Scorpion Style (bonus)
4 Monk Dodge (bonus)
5 Monk Mantis Style
6 Monk
7 Monk Weapon Specialization (IUS)
8 Monk Horn of the Criosphinx (bonus)
9 Monk Power Attack
10 Monk
11 Monk Greater Weapon Focus (IUS)
12 Monk Medusa's Wrath (bonus)
Explanation and tactics: For the first 2 lvls, wear medium armor. Scorpion Style + Stunning Fist on your first charge will help you secure that the enemy cannot avoid your flurry next round. Use explit weakness every round, almost always for penetrating DR. Focus primarly on increasing your Wis and secondary on increasing your Str, as it still governs your damage per hit.
Dwarf Qinggong Monk
Str: 17 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 5
Traits: Glory of Old (+1 to Hardy Racial)
Feats and Special Abilities:
1-Flurry of Blows
1-Stunning Fist
1-Unarmed Strike
1-Dodge (Retrain to Arcane Strike for more damage after Level 4 (sp) Barkskin qualifies you for Arcane strike....ain't that cheesy? haha Swift action Scaling damage yes please.)
1- Improved Grapple (grapple a caster and watch them panic trying to get away wasting their turn.)
2- Evasion
2- Combat Reflexes
3-Fast movement
3-Maneuver training
3- Still Mind
3- Feat - Dragon Style
4- Slow Fall/ Barkskin (Replace slowfall with Bark Skin from Qinggong Monk)
5- High Jump/Deny Death (replaceable but still useful. I suggest Ki Stand, Deny Death, or Scorching Ray)
5- Purity of Body
5- Feat- Dragon Ferocity
6- Bonus Feat- Improved Bull Rush or Improved Trip (Both are good for bonus feats. Bull Rush is good if you like being enlarged and want to push people around. Improved trip can work with Flurries and subbed out for attacks and works well with Combat reflexes. Problem is Flying/ multi-legged creatures can't be tripped. So pick your Poison Here.
7- Wholeness of Body/ Gaseous Form (replace Wholeness of Body)
7- Feat- Greater Grapple
9- Feat- Mantis Style (remember to have 3 points in heal by this level)
10- Bonus Feat- Medusa's Wrath
11-Diamond Body/ Restoration (replace Diamond Body for restoration and never pay for it again. Restoration can fix your poison problems if your ever effected due to your insanely good saves.)
11- Improved Critical, Elemental Fist, Greater Level 6 feat, Your choice!!!!
12- Abundant step
13- Feat- Steel soul(+5 hardy with Glory of Old...+5 against 80% of your saves will keep you alive this campaign) /See level 11!/Find something fun!
13- Diamond Soul (spell resistance is necessary for fighting Wizards )
I also noticed the wands your wanting to use can be used by the Sorc or the Life oracle or anyone with UMD in your party ON you or you can find Potions of the same spells. Which makes me think the Wizard and Druid dips to be bad Ideas.
I would have to do a bit more reading on it myself, but have you taken a look at the Master of Many Styles yet?
I like the monk/druid, but it's a very situational build, and your BAB is going to suffer greatly.
Could even go duelist a little later if you take Snake Style. This will make you a little more MAD, but the sheer variety of options on a given turn are nice.
Combat Reflexes and a high Dex would be a must.
Here's a small example of what he might look like around 8th level.
Assuming he's got a couple magic items. I gave him a belt of physical perfection +2, bracers of armor +3, and headband of wisdom +2
Human Monk 8
Str:12 Dex:22 Con:14 Int:12 Wis:18 Cha:7
AC:25 HP:66
Feats:
1-Dodge
1H-Crane Style
1M-Crane Wing
2M-Crane Riposte
3-Weapon Finesse
5-Snake Style
6M-Snake Fang
7-Combat Reflexes
Attack Bonus: +12/+6
Damage: 1d10 + 1
Special Stuff: While in Total Defense AC is 30, if creature attacks you and misses (which they should) you get 2 free AoO's and another attack as an Immediate Action. Also, if an attack still manages to hit you, you can negate that attack. This still provokes the 2 AoO's and the Immediate Action attack. That particular thing can only trigger once per round. If an enemy attacks you twice, that's 4 AoO's plus the IA, 3 times, you'll get 6 AoO's (thanks to combat refelexes) and an Immediate Action attack.
Go all in with a Zen Archer / Qinggong Monk build, since both archetypes don't interfere with each other.
I used this build for Reign of Winter and had a blast with it.
Many people consider Zen Archer quite strong in and of itself. Qinggong gives you even more options and flexibility and is the cherry on this awesome sundae.
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Well, I'd like to thank all of you very much for your advice and different builds you recommend. I will probably use them sometime in the future. However, I'm really just torn between the two listed on the spreadsheet. I would really just know what you all recommend between those two. They're both Qinggong/Flowing Monks, though, one of them mixed with 8 levels of Druid. Click on the Link "Two Builds, Two Sheets"
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I said I do not like the Dips of Druid and wizard. They Will weaken your monk. Weapon Finesse also hurts because your Maneuvers depend on STR and Wis not Dex. So your not going to land as much maneuvers.
If your going Qinggong monk and take Barkskin do NOT take power attack...take Arcane Strike or Dragon style/ferocity or BOTH. Your dipping Druid and Wizard losing BAB of 2 levels taking +0 to it and making Flurry progress slower..
Power attack will make it even harder to hit. Arcane strike will give you scaling damage. But Dragon style is the best feat to add extra damage to a unarmed monk. Power attack really hurts you.
Again I will state you have restoration in build 1 list way too early....You also have Combat reflexes listed 2 times.
All in all your First build is going to disappoint you completely when it doesn't work the way your thinking it up in your head. The math is against you and your severely going to be having a harder time Hitting and doing Maneuvers which is what the flowing monk is about.
Build 2 is a little better but your going to be Severely behind on combat capabilities until you get the good forms to shift into around Level 12.
Let me tell you this about Rise of the Runelords. Its combat is deadly and brutal. There are few traps....the entire campaign is 1 fight fest that is about killing them quickly because they are trying to slaughter you. Your gonna need strong saves or protection against Full caster types. After book 3 your facing either powerful melee foes (giants, Undead, abjurations, outsiders) or Powerful casters (Wizards and Clerics), Or you will be facing a combo of both (dragons) or all 3 at the same time. The fights I can not stress this enough are down right brutal. Not many APs even come close to the difficulty of Rise of the Runelords.
That being said this is my advice about multiclassing.....If it doesn't make your character stronger up front and add to what he already does then I would avoid it. You will need to stay relivent in combat to end them quickly or you run the risk of someone dying and having to spend your money to resurrect them. I recommend Not using build 1 and I would seriously look into stream lining your combat abilities.
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Now that's some good advice to think over! Thanks Fruian Thistlefoot.
I'll take all of that into consideration, especially the info about RotRL you gave me without spoiling anything(thank you!) and make some revisions to both builds if I can. That second Monk/Druid build is really Feat starved... it makes it difficult to fit what I need in there :( He can shift into a Huge animal at level 5 though.. pounce like a boss :D! If I can squeeze Dragon Style in there I will.
On the bright side, in our first session we got into 3 rather medium to large fights, and I absolutely beasted the competition with many trips and seriously put those combat reflexes to use when my opponents stood up. My favorite part was a couple of occasions where a goblin would try to charge a more squishy foe, and I would just trip them as they passed. It was beautiful. That's however only level 1 though...
By level 2 I am going to have to make a decision on which route to go.. which is only 623 xp away !!! :((
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If you ever plan on using Reposition, you need Agile Maneuvers. But tripping can be done with Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks, allowing you to apply Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus and such to it. So I advise against using Reposition. Dragon Style is largely useless unless you are a Strength monk. Since you are a Dex-monk I'd go with something else.
Monk/Druids, from my understanding, take a really long time to come online. I'd skip that for the "Mostly Monk" build that comes online earlier and probably avoid the wizard dip. Maybe druid too. If you really want the arcane casting, go with Wildblooded Empyreal Sorcerer, as you will get more spells due to Wis-casting. Also, what are your stats? I couldn't see them on the Spreadsheets.
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I'm running a Zen Archer/Qinggong monk in RoTRL; we're at level 7, and she's pretty effective. As soon as I can get a Lesser Designating bow, she'll add +2 attack and damage to the melee fighters, too. For Ki powers, I have Barkskin (the no-brainer), High Jump (cause I just love it), and Deny Death. (We almost TPK'd in book 2, and I wanted to make sure that doesn't happen again. As long as my monk isn't killed outright, she'll wake up within a few minutes and be able to get everyone else out of there.)
In other games, my husband has level 7 Flowing Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain, which is a really devastating combination. He's focused on Trip, so it's getting less helpful at upper levels, but a Reposition based Flowing Monk with Ki Throw is a awesome battlefield controller. He can't be moved when he plants his feet, he can reposition people who attack him (Enlarge Person makes this really, really powerful), and his AoOs cause foes to be shaken. And you get Toughness and +1 Natural Armor at 2nd level.
In general, here's the FAQ that says Qinggong Monk can stack with every archetype, so really, every monk except the Martial Artist should take archetype, just to have the options. (Your GM may rule differently, of course.)
For ki powers, I would never take a feat-replicating Ki power: you will want those ki points for all sorts of other reasons. If you want a feat, you'll want it all the time, so just plan to get it somehow.
I like Dex-based characters, but it's not optimal for a Monk. You get Wisdom to AC along with Dex, so you're usually better off maxing Widsom and Strength, especially if you want to do maneuvers. Through level 7, we haven't found anything like an agile weapon or an amulet of mighty fists (at all, much less an agile weapon), and we're only now in a big enough city that we have a prayer of hunting one down. A completely Dex-based front-liner would have struggled though our game, just because of the luck of the roll on what's in the marketplace. Your GM and your luck will differ, obviously, but you'll want to understand what general situation you're getting into before you decide.
(Like I said, I like Dex based, highly acrobatic characters, and my Zen Archer is Dex first then Wisdom, even though I knew it wasn't the best option for DPR. She's done OK for herself.)
If your GM is big-hearted enough to allow Guided (I have met none so far that allow 3.5 items, so good on you) I'd stick to Wisdom all the way.
You will need dex for maneuvers though (you aren't a sensei so can't use wisdom for it). Were you planning on the Shaping Focus immediate medium air/fire elemental tactic at lvl 8 (I can't imagine the small elemental at lvl 6 really appeals.)? Will take some time, but I feel is reasonably worth it.
prototype00
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Also, what are your stats? I couldn't see them on the Spreadsheets.
Sorry aboot that.
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 17(first point at level 4 will go here)
Cha: 7
If your GM is big-hearted enough to allow Guided (I have met none so far that allow 3.5 items, so good on you) I'd stick to Wisdom all the way.
You will need dex for maneuvers though (you aren't a sensei so can't use wisdom for it). Were you planning on the Shaping Focus immediate medium air/fire elemental tactic at lvl 8 (I can't imagine the small elemental at lvl 6 really appeals.)? Will take some time, but I feel is reasonably worth it.
He DOES allow Guided. That's the sweet part! I am debating that very much so.
I was planning on Shaping Focus and my first level of Wild Shape at level 5(monk 1 druid 4). Then I can turn into a Huge(pouncy pounce) animal if I wish, or a Medium elemental. Once I have a guided AoMF, I can totes drop Weapon Finesse and use Wisdom for everything.
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Sorry aboot that.
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 17(first point at level 4 will go here)
Cha: 7
Thanks, this makes it easier to consider options.
I was planning on Shaping Focus and my first level of Wild Shape at level 5(monk 1 druid 4). Then I can turn into a Huge(pouncy pounce) animal if I wish, or a Medium elemental. Once I have a guided AoMF, I can totes drop Weapon Finesse and use Wisdom for everything.You have to wait until level 6 to do that.
If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level.
Why not just pure druid?
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Why not just pure druid?
It just isn't my style, and doesn't feel that fun to me. I llove all of the quirky little abilities, and moreso defensive ones, that Monks get. Truly, Monks are my absolute favorite class to play; No matter how much trash talk they get :P
Thanks, this makes it easier to consider options.Quote:
I was planning on Shaping Focus and my first level of Wild Shape at level 5(monk 1 druid 4). Then I can turn into a Huge(pouncy pounce) animal if I wish, or a Medium elemental. Once I have a guided AoMF, I can totes drop Weapon Finesse and use Wisdom for everything.
You have to wait until level 6 to do that.
Shaping Focus wrote:
If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level.
Crap. Did I misinterpret that feat again? Ugh. I thought it adds a pure 4 levels to Druid for Wildshape, as long as those 4 didn't exceed your actual character level. I assume now, judging by your response, it means that my Total Druid Wildshape Level cannot exceed my Character Level?
It looks like I might just stick to the Mostly Monk if that's the case.. that'd be Too slow of a growth.
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Yeah...even if you dipped the Druid I'd still Recommend the STR build because Shape shifting adds to stats but STR is your To hit, Maneuvers need STR in Shaped form.
Basically you will be doing Spirit of the Beast druid Focusing On STR and Wis. Only doing 3 levels of monk for the bonus Maneuver feats, Still mind, Maneuver training to add Wis to maneuvers.
Even still The progression will be slow go and by level 7 you will reach your first Wild shape. It would be way too slow for this campaign.
It looks like I might just stick to the Mostly Monk if that's the case.. that'd be Too slow of a growth.
Basically Why I suggested straight Qinggong monk to begin with. They really are a lot of fun and Qinggong actually pulls monk up to a High T4 class. T4 Classes can survive decently focusing on 1-3 things combat wise. I like Grappling, Stunning fist, and Straight Damage. I use the Qinggong abilities to supplement his weak spots. Gaseous Form is awesome to scout out a Area and report back to the group without being able to be held down and killed. Will make you a better scout then the Rogue in your group and I know he will envy your Bark skin and restoration abilities as well.
Crap. Did I misinterpret that feat again? Ugh. I thought it adds a pure 4 levels to Druid for Wildshape, as long as those 4 didn't exceed your actual character level. I assume now, judging by your response, it means that my Total Druid Wildshape Level cannot exceed my Character Level?
No it can't....sorry.