Other's opinions are welcome too! I'd like to see what others think on this MCA, and if there's any input besides mine and Elghinn's on this :)
What, apart from my declaration of love for and critiques of the concept, some of which you referenced in the selfsame post I'm quoting this from? ;)
...I just got any idea for a Druid/Antipaladin. "Thrall of Jubilex." Slimes n' Oozes.
As a fan of Juiblex since 1e I like the concept, but remember we are non-campaign specific here, so you'll need another name...
#Hivemaster
* Create Hive should state that the shield bonus from eidolons is gained from each eidolon occupying the hive with the hivemind, not just in general.
Then should we have a limit on the number of eidolons that can be part of the hive mind, say X at 12th, +1 every 3 or 4 levels, until he can include all his eidolons? That way it scales with level. We have to also take into account the possibility of taking the Large and Huge evolutions to increase the size/number of the brood.
That sounds reasonable to me, would work much better too.
* could Bond Senses retain the feature of swapping between eidolons as a swift action? (Also, I wouldnt mind this being called 'Hivemind' again, and the MCA's name to be something different, like Hivemaster maybe?
Even the broodmaster can't do that, so I think we need to follow its lead with this ability. Changed the ability to Hivemind, and renamed the MCa Hive Master.
Ah, the changing perception between broodlings isn't actually a Broodmaster ability, this one was taken from the Pack Lord druid archetype. I just decided to mix Bond Senses and 'Improved Empathic Link' into a single ability; Hivemind
Also, @Taco Man
...I just got any idea for a Druid/Antipaladin. "Thrall of Jubilex." Slimes n' Oozes.
That's sounding pretty similar to the Ichormancer I've been mentioning, a Druid/Alchemist type focusing around oozes. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but it does sound a little close for comfort... if you like, we could collab on this one? :)
I'm a big fan of Oozes, on of my favourite critters. Glad to see it's not just me who's taken a liking to them :P
@Elghinn
Well this is coming together suprisingly well, at this point I have mainly one complaint perhaps. That being I find the Blackthorn being able to Wildshape only 3 times a day is not a lot... unless I am forgetting what the number stands for.
Remember, he can shift from his normal form, to an animal form, and back, up to 3/day, but he can stay in the animal form up to 1 hour per lveel, like the druid.
We can up it to 4/day or even 5/day, but that would require losing an additional 1 or 2 increments of sneak attack.
Also, the 3rd level Wild Sneak ability comes from the Chameleon rogue archetype, its the Effortless Sneak ability, where he chooses a specific terrain at 3rd and every 3 levels and can take 10 in that terrain with Stealth checks. Felt it was very fitting with the druid, and allows for some diversity in different terrains, as not all druids are necessarily "forest" druids.
#Hivemaster
* Create Hive should state that the shield bonus from eidolons is gained from each eidolon occupying the hive with the hivemind, not just in general.
Then should we have a limit on the number of eidolons that can be part of the hive mind, say X at 12th, +1 every 3 or 4 levels, until he can include all his eidolons? That way it scales with level. We have to also take into account the possibility of taking the Large and Huge evolutions to increase the size/number of the brood.
That sounds reasonable to me, would work much better too.
* could Bond Senses retain the feature of swapping between eidolons as a swift action? (Also, I wouldnt mind this being called 'Hivemind' again, and the MCA's name to be something different, like Hivemaster maybe?
Even the broodmaster can't do that, so I think we need to follow its lead with this ability. Changed the ability to Hivemind, and renamed the MCa Hive Master.
Ah, the changing perception between broodlings isn't actually a Broodmaster ability, this one was taken from the Pack Lord druid archetype. I just decided to mix Bond Senses and 'Improved Empathic Link' into a single ability; Hivemind
Also, @Taco Man
...I just got any idea for a Druid/Antipaladin. "Thrall of Jubilex." Slimes n' Oozes.That's sounding pretty similar to the Ichormancer I've been mentioning, a Druid/Alchemist type focusing around oozes. Not to burst your bubble or anything, but it does sound a little close for comfort... if you like, we could collab on this one? :)
I'm a big fan of Oozes, on of my favourite critters. Glad to see it's not just me who's taken a liking to them :P
1) then I will rewrite the ability to include that.
2) Ah! then I'll take a look at the Pack Lord archetype.
3) Remember, MCas can be similar in idea but end up very different in application and function. If you guys want to collaborate, that's fine.
Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. Individual
I feel this will make the eidolon too weak. In general, +/- 2 CL equals a doubling in number in Pathfinder, and making an Eidolon Small/Tiny weakens it significantly by reducing just about everything except Dexterity. I feel each diminished eidolon can have the full table values and still be about -2 CL compared to the base eidolon just from the size reduction alone.
Edit: Also, its much easier to keep track of the eidolons if they are all identical.
Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. IndividualI feel this will make the eidolon too weak. In general, +/- 2 CL equals a doubling in number in Pathfinder, and making an Eidolon Small/Tiny weakens it significantly by reducing just about everything except Dexterity. I feel each diminished eidolon can have the full table values and still be about -2 CL compared to the base eidolon just from the size reduction alone.
Edit: Also, its much easier to keep track of the eidolons if they are all identical.
I kinda support this, it sounds reasonable to me, and would much less hassle managing eidolons.
#Blackthorn
Here's the initial writeup of the Blackthorn that we can work off of.
Nature is expressly deceptive. From naturally evolved camouflage and carnivorous plants, to bugs that emulate other animals to fool predators, its ultimate goal is the survival of as many species of plant and animal life to survive the ravages of time. Like wildlife, it is those men and women who learn to harness nature’s power and use it to gain an upper hand against their enemies that also ensure their survival. So it is, blackthorns use natural deception to enhance their own innate skills of stealth and subterfuge to survive in the wilderness beyond the urban boundaries of city life. While a blackthorn’s primary focus is deception and defensive capabilities, they are by no means helpless. These devious agents of the natural world train themselves in the roguish skill set, while modeling themselves upon animals that use cunning, patience and trickery rather than direct force.
Primary Class: Rogue.
Secondary Class: Druid.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The blackthorn may select three druid skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normalrogue class skills. The blackthorn gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The blackthorn is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, scimitar, sap, and shortbow. A blackthorn is proficient with light armor, but is prohibited from wearing metal armor and; thus, they may wear only padded or leather armor. A blackthorn may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description. A blackthorn is not proficient with shields. The blackthorn otherwise follows the armor and shield restrictions as described in the druid class entry.
Nature Sense (Ex): At 1st level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s nature sense ability. This ability and wild empathy replace trapfinding.
Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that the extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 3rd, 7th, 9th, 13th, 15th, and 17th level, up to a maximum of 7d6.
Wild Empathy (Ex): At 1st level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s wild empathy ability.
Woodland Stride (Ex): At 2nd level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s woodland stride ability. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 2nd level.
Wild Sneak (Ex): At 3rd level, a blackthorn chooses a single terrain from the ranger’s favored terrain class feature. While she is within that terrain, she can take 10 on any Stealth check she can make within that terrain. When the blackthorn reaches 6th level and every three levels thereafter, she chooses a new type of terrain from the ranger’s favored terrain list. She gains this ability with the newly picked terrain. This ability replaces trap sense.
Animal Companion (Ex): At 4th level, a blackthron forms a close bond with an animal companion. A blackthorn can choose her animal companion from the following list: ape, baboon, bird, cat (big), cat (small), chameleon (giant), cooshee, dire rat, dog, gecko (giant), hawk (riding), snake (viper), spider (giant), stag, vulture (giant), or wolf. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the blackthorn on her adventures as appropriate for its kind. A blackthorn's animal companion shares her wild sneak bonuses. This ability otherwise functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the blackthorn's effective druid level is equal to her blackthorn level –3.
In addition, a blackthorn’s animal companion gains the following special ability.
Shared Sneak Attack (Ex): At 4th level, the blackthorn’s animal companion gains the blackthorn’s sneak attack ability and can deal 1d6 points of extra damage anytime its target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the it flanks its target. Every five levels beyond 5th, this extra damage increases by 1d6, up to 4d6 at 19th level. This ability replaces share spells.
This ability replaces the rogue talents gained at 4th, 12th, 16th, and 18th level.
Spellcasting: Beginning at 4th level, a blackthorn gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the blackthorn spell list. A blackthorn must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a blackthorn must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a blackthorn's spell is 10 + the spell level + the blackthorn's Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a blackthorn can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Blackthorn. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: Blackthorn indicates that the blackthorn gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.
A blackthorn must spend 1 hour per day in a trance-like meditation on the mysteries of nature to regain her daily allotment of spells. A blackthorn may prepare and cast any spell on the blackthorn spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a blackthorn has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her blackthorn level –3. This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and the rogue talent gained at 20th level.
Spontaneous Casting: A blackthorn can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature's ally spell of the same level or lower.
Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s wild shape ability and can turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per blackthorn level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the blackthorn is familiar with.
A blackthorn can use this ability an additional time per day at 11th level and again at 17th level. As a blackthorn gains in levels, this ability allows the blackthorn to take on the form of larger and smaller animals and plants. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 7th level, a blackthorn can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal. When taking the form of an animal, a blackthorn's wild shape now functions as beast shape II.
At 9th level, a blackthorn can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a blackthorn's wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of a plant creature, the blackthorn's wild shape functions as plant shape I.
At 11th level, a blackthorn can use wild shape to change into a Large plant creature. When taking the form of a plant, the blackthorn's wild shape now functions as plant shape II.
At 13th level, a blackthorn can use wild shape to change into a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of a plant, the blackthorn's wild shape now functions as plant shape III.
This ability replaces sneak attack 2d6, 5d6, and 8d6.
Trackless Step (Ex): At 6th level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s trackless step ability. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 6th level.
Untamed City (Ex): At 8th level, a blackthorn’s trackless step ability now applies to the city and urban areas, as well as natural surroundings. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 8th level.
Venom Immunity (Ex): At 10th level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s venom immunity ability. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 10th level.
A Thousand Faces (Ex): At 14th level, a blackthorn gains the druid’s a thousand faces ability. This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 14th level.
Table: Blackthorn
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Nature sense, sneak attack +1d6, wild empathy — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Evasion, woodland stride — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sneak attack +2d6, wild sneak — — — —
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Animal companion, spontaneous casting 0 — — —
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Wild shape 1/day 1 — — —
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Trackless step 1 — — —
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Sneak attack +3d6 1 0 — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +6 Untamed city 1 1 — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +6 Sneak attack +4d6 2 1 — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +7 Venom immunity 2 1 0 —
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +7 Wild shape 2/day 2 1 1 —
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 2 2 1 —
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +8 Sneak attack +5d6 3 2 1 0
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +9 A thousand faces 3 2 1 1
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +9 Sneak attack +6d6 3 2 2 1
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 3 3 2 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +10 Wild shape 3/day 4 3 2 1
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +11 4 3 2 2
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +11 Sneak attack +7d6 4 3 3 2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +12 Master strike 4 4 3 3
Blackthorns gain access to the following spells.
1st-Level Blackthorn Spells—air bubble, ant haul, aspect of the falcon, blend, bristle, calm animals, charm animal, commune with birds, detect animals or plants, detect snares and pits, endure elements, entangle, feather step, goodberry, hide from animals, jump, keen senses, longstrider, magic fang, pass without trace, summon nature’s ally I.
2nd-Level Blackthorn Spells—acute senses, animal aspect, animal messenger, ape walk, aspect of the bear, badger’s ferocity, barkskin, blood scent, bloodhound, cat’s grace, chameleon stride, forest friend, glide, greensight, hold animal, hunter’s eye, hunter’s lore, improve trap, locate weakness, perceive cues, protection from energy, summon nature’s ally II, warp wood, wilderness soldiers, wood shape.
3rd-Level Blackthorn Spells—animal aspect (greater), anthropomorphic animal, aspect of the stag, blessing of the mole, bloody claws, burst of speed, command plants, companion mindlink, diminish plants, magic fang (greater), nixie’s lure, plant growth, pup shape, reduce animal, repel vermin, snare, speak with plants, summon nature’s ally III, tree shape, water breathing.
4th-Level Blackthorn Spells—animal growth, arboreal hammer, aspect of the wolf, commune with nature, earth glide, find quarry, freedom of movement, ironwood, repel wood, summon nature’s ally IV, terrain bond, thorn body, tree stride.
I kinda support this, it sounds reasonable to me, and would much less hassle managing eidolons.Regardless of the number of eidolons in the brood, each eidolon has the same base attack bonus and base saving throw bonuses, but the rest of the eidolons’ base statistics must be divided between the eidolons, including Hit Dice (minimum 1), skill points, number of feats, armor bonus, Str/Dex bonus, evolution pool (but see below), and maximum number of natural attacks. IndividualI feel this will make the eidolon too weak. In general, +/- 2 CL equals a doubling in number in Pathfinder, and making an Eidolon Small/Tiny weakens it significantly by reducing just about everything except Dexterity. I feel each diminished eidolon can have the full table values and still be about -2 CL compared to the base eidolon just from the size reduction alone.
Edit: Also, its much easier to keep track of the eidolons if they are all identical.
So what are you proposing exactly, mechanics-wise, Starfox? I'm just trying to keep within the offical rules of the already established Summoner Broodmaster archetype. I'm open to an alternate, I just need a good explanation of your proposed mechanics as to how you are suggeting we do this?
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@Elghinn
Hmm... sighs. I apologize for being a bother but I think I would like to go to 4 times per day with Wild Shape, partly so a Blackthorn has access to being in Wild Shape more then once a little bit earlier. That and as I had originally said Wild Shape would be important, I feel the Blackthorn gains too few daily uses.
---------------
Apart from this request, you have done brilliantly in turning the Blackthorn into an MCA and I am very pleased.
I can't wait to see it on the site and to put the Blackthorn to use.
# Ichormancer
Well, We'll see how close to your idea mine comes. I think this ones abit lower on the list than the Ichormancer aught to be, so, if it's too similar for comfort, it can likely be removed. On top of the fact that I'm more working on juggling the Black Nokizaru, Accursed Shinobi, and Final Warlord Concepts (Changed it to Antipaladin/Cavalier or Cavalier/Antipaladin, with a Four Horsemen motif.)
@Elghinn
Hmm... sighs. I apologize for being a bother but I think I would like to go to 4 times per day with Wild Shape, partly so a Blackthorn has access to being in Wild Shape more then once a little bit earlier. That and as I had originally said Wild Shape would be important, I feel the Blackthorn gains too few daily uses.
---------------Apart from this request, you have done brilliantly in turning the Blackthorn into an MCA and I am very pleased.
I can't wait to see it on the site and to put the Blackthorn to use.
No bother. Very easy to change. So, now, Sneak attack is 1d6 at 1st, increases by 1d6 at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th (max 6d6), and wild shape is at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th (max 4/day).
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@Elghinn Thank you
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Now to jump right back into the queue!
Whisperer (Druid/Bard)
Plants and animals have a voice that scant few humanoids can understand, let alone speak. Whisperers are what many jokingly refer as a side order of druids. They understand the ways of nature, but approach it with a certain wild joy that sometimes is at odds with the more stern approach of most other druids. Whisperers feel a certain kinship with the beasts of the land more than with the plants and the earth, and such sympathy allows them to sing with an animal’s voice, and the animals join in with pleasure.
Unlike most other druids, whisperers have little qualms with the civilised world, as long as they do not witness the mistreatment of animals; they serve as superb teamsters, falconers, handlers and trainers, and travel often to farmlands and other places where people may have trouble with animals, smoothing the relationships between hunters and prey, shepherd and herd.
elghinn, i hate to pile on with all the other stuff, but from here on out i am planning to do every gunslinger primary that's left in order(so starting with anti-pally) so whenever you feel like throwing me up on the cue, you will know my next project.
So what are you proposing exactly, mechanics-wise, Starfox? I'm just trying to keep within the offical rules of the already established Summoner Broodmaster archetype. I'm open to an alternate, I just need a good explanation of your proposed mechanics as to how you are suggeting we do this?
Afraid this criticism goes for the broodmaster eidolon too; I realize this makes my point weaker as it goes against an offical Pazio archetype, but I disliked that when I read it and feel its a poor solution.
I've not thought this through in detail, but making all the smaller eidolons identical, at a cost in size (and thus attributes) and probably at a cost in evolutions. Actually, the easiest way to do this is to make it an evolution in itself. This is a sketch; I leave the point value of these evolutions and the exact modifiers to you.
In the below evolutions, the eidolon has the ability to be one or several eidolons. This is not necessary to the idea; the split could be permanent once picked.
Half Eidolon: Your eidolon can split into two Small-sized versions of itself as a standard action. When size-changed, remove all other evolutions relating to size, then modify the eidolon as follows; -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Size becomes Small, which gives a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +4 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose one step of damage. Any damage the eidolon has taken is split evenly between the two forms. Either of the small eidolons can resume its normal size as a standard action, keeping all damage it has taken and instantly causing any other versions of the eidolon to disappear.
Quarter Eidolon: As half eidolon, only your eidolon splits into four Tiny versions of itself. Each has -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Dexterity. Size becomes Tiny, which gives a +2 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +8 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose two steps of damage. If the eidolon has natural armor, it is reduced by two points.
I will agree that some Summoner archetypes made by Paizo are a little unbalanced and need revisiting. Broodmaster and Synthesist, while nice concepts, lack refinement and tend to become a little overpowered or completely broken with a push.
#Hivemaster was originally a homebrew workaround for the bits of Broodmaster that I felt needed tweaking, but it became the vermin-themed MCA you see now, which I'm all the more happy for.
I've not seen the Synthetist in play, but the idea behind it must be that the loss of actions make up for the great toughness it grants. You do after all lose all the eidolon. It ought to balance out, but seems it does not in actual play.
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Afraid this criticism goes for the broodmaster eidolon too; I realize this makes my point weaker as it goes against an offical Pazio archetype, but I disliked that when I read it and feel its a poor solution.
Not to worry Starfox. Just because it is "official Paizo" doesn't automatically make it perfect, balanced or immune from critique. :)
Yeah.... I'm usually preeetttty lax when it comes to my players and their choices. The Summoner is the only class where I'm immediately keeping a close eye on any player, and I flat out Do-Not-Allow the Synthesist.
Hot crowd, eh?
And I'm working on my own ideas! Though... reading the creative guidelines, I suppose what I came up with is mostly 'similar' to a Multiclass Archetype, rather than being exactly what's going on here. o.O I think it's somewhere between a normal archetype and a multiclass one, really, considering it's effectively a Fighter/Monster class intended to make natural weapons a lot of fun.
#Hivemaster
Ah, the changing perception between broodlings isn't actually a Broodmaster ability, this one was taken from the Pack Lord druid archetype. I just decided to mix Bond Senses and 'Improved Empathic Link' into a single ability; Hivemind
Changed that, so he can switch between eidolons as a swift action with bond senses.
Is there anthing else with Hivemind?
@Elghinn
Well this is coming together suprisingly well, at this point I have mainly one complaint perhaps. That being I find the Blackthorn being able to Wildshape only 3 times a day is not a lot... unless I am forgetting what the number stands for.
Thrall of the Faceless One? Servant of the Oozelord? Earl of Pudding (Cookie for whoever gets the reference)? Duke of Slime!
In the below evolutions, the eidolon has the ability to be one or several eidolons. This is not necessary to the idea; the split could be permanent once picked.
Half Eidolon: Your eidolon can split into two Small-sized versions of itself as a standard action. When size-changed, remove all other evolutions relating to size, then modify the eidolon as follows; -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Size becomes Small, which gives a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +4 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose one step of damage. Any damage the eidolon has taken is split evenly between the two forms. Either of the small eidolons can resume its normal size as a standard action, keeping all damage it has taken and instantly causing any other versions of the eidolon to disappear.
Quarter Eidolon: As half eidolon, only your eidolon splits into four Tiny versions of itself. Each has -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Dexterity. Size becomes Tiny, which gives a +2 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +8 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose two steps of damage. If the eidolon has natural armor, it...
What does everyone else think? I think this may be a more eleoquent and easier way to go about the mass eidlons. This way, there can be a simgle Medium eidlon, 2 Small or 4 tiny. But what happens when the LArge or Huge evolution is taken? Does that then mean that he can do 2 Medium and 4 Samll if he takes the Large, and 2 Large and 4 Medium if he takes the Huge? Essentially, he can't have more than 4 eidolons that are more than 2 sizes smaller than the normal size of the eidolon, whether that is Medium, Large, or Huge? OR woudl we want to allow 8 Tiny also with the LArge, and 8 Small and 16 Tiny with the Huge (I think that would be crazy!) I think limiting it to Small for Large and Medium for Huge is the best way. This allows it to sort of scale with level too.
Thrall of the Faceless One? Servant of the Oozelord? Earl of Pudding (Cookie for whoever gets the reference)? Duke of Slime!@Elghinn
Well this is coming together suprisingly well, at this point I have mainly one complaint perhaps. That being I find the Blackthorn being able to Wildshape only 3 times a day is not a lot... unless I am forgetting what the number stands for.
I like either of those. How about Faceless Thrall? Slime Lord?
Now to jump right back into the queue!Whisperer (Druid/Bard).
You are in the queue!
Faceless thrall sounds good! Sling that down afew below the Final Warlord (as mentioned, revamped to Antipaladin/Cavalier.) and Accursed Shinobi?
#Hivemind
That /does/ seem like it would work, with that scaling... What if you cut it down to fine? o.O
And I'm working on my own ideas! Though... reading the creative guidelines, I suppose what I came up with is mostly 'similar' to a Multiclass Archetype, rather than being exactly what's going on here. o.O I think it's somewhere between a normal archetype and a multiclass one, really, considering it's effectively a Fighter/Monster class intended to make natural weapons a lot of fun.
Welcome Rednal! Feel free to try your hand at an MCA, or go it on your own. that's whay we have the guidelines on our wiki. We want everyone interested to feel free to create their own.
If there is nothing else on the Blackthorn, then we're on to Bandw2's Paragon of Rage. Hope you're still following along.
What does everyone else think? I think this may be a more eleoquent and easier way to go about the mass eidlons. This way, there can be a simgle Medium eidlon, 2 Small or 4 tiny. But what happens when the LArge or Huge evolution is taken? Does that then mean that he can do 2 Medium and 4 Samll if he takes the Large, and 2 Large and 4 Medium if he takes the Huge? Essentially, he can't have more than 4 eidolons that are more than 2 sizes smaller than the normal size of the eidolon, whether that is Medium, Large, or Huge? OR woudl we want to allow 8 Tiny also with the LArge, and 8 Small and 16 Tiny with the Huge (I think that would be crazy!) I think limiting it to Small for Large and Medium for Huge is the best way. This allows it to sort of scale with level too.In the below evolutions, the eidolon has the ability to be one or several eidolons. This is not necessary to the idea; the split could be permanent once picked.
Half Eidolon: Your eidolon can split into two Small-sized versions of itself as a standard action. When size-changed, remove all other evolutions relating to size, then modify the eidolon as follows; -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Size becomes Small, which gives a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +4 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose one step of damage. Any damage the eidolon has taken is split evenly between the two forms. Either of the small eidolons can resume its normal size as a standard action, keeping all damage it has taken and instantly causing any other versions of the eidolon to disappear.
Quarter Eidolon: As half eidolon, only your eidolon splits into four Tiny versions of itself. Each has -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -2 Dexterity. Size becomes Tiny, which gives a +2 size bonus to Armor Class, attack rolls, and a +8 Size bonus to Stealth checks. Physical attacks lose two steps of damage. If the eidolon has natural armor, it...
I reckon we shouldn't have the size changing as an evolution, given that the broodmaster doesn't. Instead, I reckon if we work the CL +/- system into the different numbers we could easily pull it off.
perhaps for each number of Eidolons active, the CL is reduced by one per Eidolon? that way as it starts, having 4 tiny would give each -4 CL, and similarly -2 CL for 2 small. Which leaves us with -3 CL for one small and two tiny. then similarly progressing with Larger Brood
Other than that, the Hivemaster is looking pretty good. How goes the progress with the 'Create Hive' mechanic? after that I think it's set to go.
If there is nothing else on the Blackthorn, then we're on to Bandw2's Paragon of Rage. Hope you're still following along.
I thought it was OSW's Gun/Alc? Or Rose's Clr/Monk?
If there is nothing else on the Blackthorn, then we're on to Bandw2's Paragon of Rage. Hope you're still following along.I thought it was OSW's Gun/Alc? Or Rose's Clr/Monk?
Newbies get precendence, remember. OSW is after Bandw2.
I reckon we shouldn't have the size changing as an evolution, given that the broodmaster doesn't. Instead, I reckon if we work the CL +/- system into the different numbers we could easily pull it off.
perhaps for each number of Eidolons active, the CL is reduced by one per Eidolon? that way as it starts, having 4 tiny would give each -4 CL, and similarly -2 CL for 2 small. Which leaves us with -3 CL for one small and two tiny. then similarly progressing with Larger Brood
Other than that, the Hivemaster is looking pretty good. How goes the progress with the 'Create Hive' mechanic? after that I think it's set to go.
We can just work it into the class feature like you are suggesting, instead of an evolution. But then, if the MCA chooses Large or Huge, then we'll need to lay out exactly what happens. I'll see what I can cook up.
#Hive Master
Create Hive (Sp): At 12th level, a hivemaster can create a hive that provides him with cover. This functions as the web shelter spell, except the hive has a hardness of 6, and 5 hit points for every 5-foot square of web surface area. A hive master can have 2 eidolons as part of his hive at 12th level, and an additional eidolon every four levels thereafter. Each eidolon that is part of the hive grants the hive master a +2 shield bonus to AC if it is Small or a +1 shield bonus to AC if it is Tiny. This ability replaces greater shield ally.
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Thrall of the Faceless One? Servant of the Oozelord? Earl of Pudding (Cookie for whoever gets the reference)? Duke of Slime!@Elghinn
Well this is coming together suprisingly well, at this point I have mainly one complaint perhaps. That being I find the Blackthorn being able to Wildshape only 3 times a day is not a lot... unless I am forgetting what the number stands for.
Hmm... why did you quote me?
.You are in the queue!
Thank you
I reckon we shouldn't have the size changing as an evolution, given that the broodmaster doesn't. Instead, I reckon if we work the CL +/- system into the different numbers we could easily pull it off.
perhaps for each number of Eidolons active, the CL is reduced by one per Eidolon? that way as it starts, having 4 tiny would give each -4 CL, and similarly -2 CL for 2 small. Which leaves us with -3 CL for one small and two tiny. then similarly progressing with Larger Brood
Other than that, the Hivemaster is looking pretty good. How goes the progress with the 'Create Hive' mechanic? after that I think it's set to go.
We can just work it into the class feature like you are suggesting, instead of an evolution. But then, if the MCA chooses Large or Huge, then we'll need to lay out exactly what happens. I'll see what I can cook up.
#Hive Master
Create Hive (Sp): At 12th level, a hivemaster can create a hive that provides him with cover. This functions as the web shelter spell, except the hive has a hardness of 6, and 5 hit points for every 5-foot square of web surface area. A hive master can have 2 eidolons as part of his hive at 12th level, and an additional eidolon every four levels thereafter. Each eidolon that is part of the hive grants the hive master a +2 shield bonus to AC if it is Small or a +1 shield bonus to AC if it is Tiny. This ability replaces greater shield ally.
Works for me, nice work with the Create Hive ability! Should be complete after the tweak to Eidolon scaling. And nice job on the spells list too, I didn't notice at first but looking good :)
#Hive Master
Made this change to the Vermn Brood ability.
"As the hive master gains levels, he can summon additional eidolons to his side. At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a hive master can choose to summon two Small eidolons that are less powerful than the single eidolon. Each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant, but must divide the number of evolution points between the eidolons. All statistics, attacks, damage, AC, evolutions, etc., are adjusted for Small size. Once a hive master decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons (including the number of eidolons), they cannot be changed until he gains a level. At 5th level, he can choose to summon four Tiny eidolons. Each Tiny eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Tiny size). Each eidolon’s statistics are adjusted for Tiny size, and evolution points must be divided between the eidolons and cannot be changed until he gains a level as normal."
Now, I just noticed that the Hive Master is restricted from choosing the Large (and thus Huge) evolution. So, we don't need to worry about summoning multiple Medium or Large eidolons with the Large/Huge evolutions.
I quoted the wrong post. XD
#Hive Master
Made this change to the Vermn Brood ability.
"As the hive master gains levels, he can summon additional eidolons to his side. At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a hive master can choose to summon two Small eidolons that are less powerful than the single eidolon. Each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant, but must divide the number of evolution points between the eidolons. All statistics, attacks, damage, AC, evolutions, etc., are adjusted for Small size. Once a hive master decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons (including the number of eidolons), they cannot be changed until he gains a level. At 5th level, he can choose to summon four Tiny eidolons. Each Tiny eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Tiny size). Each eidolon’s statistics are adjusted for Tiny size, and evolution points must be divided between the eidolons and cannot be changed until he gains a level as normal."
Now, I just noticed that the Hive Master is restricted from choosing the Large (and thus Huge) evolution. So, we don't need to worry about summoning multiple Medium or Large eidolons with the Large/Huge evolutions.
Seems good to me, though as others have mentioned before, is dividing the evolution points between Eidolons all that beneficial? Especially given only 16 evolution points are given. I think it'd be more easy to manage and less of a handicap to allow evolutions to apply to the whole brood, but going down a size reduces the amount of effective evolution points for Eidolons.
And the Large/Huge evolutions are replaced with the Larger Brood evolution, as seen in Broodmaster. This way the brood as a whole change size category.
I also think having two Eidolons should be mandatory (unless one has been defeated/banished) in order for certain skills to be most effective (as Broodmaster functions).
#Hive Master
Made this change to the Vermn Brood ability.
"As the hive master gains levels, he can summon additional eidolons to his side. At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a hive master can choose to summon two Small eidolons that are less powerful than the single eidolon. Each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant, but must divide the number of evolution points between the eidolons. All statistics, attacks, damage, AC, evolutions, etc., are adjusted for Small size. Once a hive master decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons (including the number of eidolons), they cannot be changed until he gains a level. At 5th level, he can choose to summon four Tiny eidolons. Each Tiny eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Tiny size). Each eidolon’s statistics are adjusted for Tiny size, and evolution points must be divided between the eidolons and cannot be changed until he gains a level as normal."
Now, I just noticed that the Hive Master is restricted from choosing the Large (and thus Huge) evolution. So, we don't need to worry about summoning multiple Medium or Large eidolons with the Large/Huge evolutions.
Seems good to me, though as others have mentioned before, is dividing the evolution points between Eidolons all that beneficial? Especially given only 16 evolution points are given. I think it'd be more easy to manage and less of a handicap to allow evolutions to apply to the whole brood, but going down a size reduces the amount of effective evolution points for Eidolons.
And the Large/Huge evolutions are replaced with the Larger Brood evolution, as seen in Broodmaster. This way the brood as a whole change size category.
I also think having two Eidolons should be mandatory (unless one has been defeated/banished) in order for certain skills to be most effective (as Broodmaster...
What do others think?
The evolutions applying to ALL eidolons does sound simpler? And i forgot about the Larger Brood evolution. I think we'll need to tweak that then too to coinside with the change to how the brood works.
EDIT
So we'd be looking at these changes.
Vermin Brood:
...As the hive master gains levels, he can summon additional eidolons to his side. At 2nd level, instead of a single eidolon, a hive master can choose to summon two Small eidolons that are less powerful than the single eidolon. Each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than a hive master’s level would normally grant. All statistics, attacks, damage, AC, and evolutions apply to all eidolons and are adjusted for Small size. Once a hive master decides on the forms and abilities of his eidolons (including the number of eidolons), they cannot be changed until he gains a level. At 5th level, he can choose to summon four Tiny eidolons. Each Tiny eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than a hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Tiny size). Each eidolon’s statistics are adjusted for Tiny size as normal....
4–Point Evolutions
Larger Brood (Ex): A hive master can expand the size of his vermin brood as if they had gained the Large evolution. This allows him to summon two Medium eidolons of his vermin brood, four Small eidolons, one Medium eidolon and two Small eidolons. Each Medium eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than a hive master’s level (adjusted for Medium size), while each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Small size). The hive master must be at least 8th level to select this evolution.
If 6 additional evolution points are spent, the brood instead gains the Huge evolution. This allows the hive master to summon two Large eidolons of his vermin brood, four Medium eidolons, eight Small eidolons, one Large and two Medium eidolons, or any other combination where two eidolons are equal to one eidolon one size category larger. In this case, each Large eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower than a hive master’s level (adjusted for Large size), each Medium eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 4 Hit Dice lower than a hive master’s level (adjusted for Medium size), and each Small eidolon has the base statistics of an eidolon 6 Hit Dice lower than hive master’s level would normally grant (adjusted for Small size).
I have a question: Who pitched the idea for the Erudite Bard? Who did the write up for it?
I ask because this is my favorite MCA.
Every MCa has, at the end of the paragraph following its name, who came p with the original concept. The Erudite Bard is Raiderrpg's baby - one of his favorites as well. It was was worked on by all 5 of us who constitute the Multiclass Productions crew. But it was mostly Raider's ideas from start to finish.
#Hivemaster
Looks complete to me! Nice work with the tweaks, I know Summoner classes can be a bit of a challenge to work with, especially ones like this. I'm glad to see the original concept didn't change too much with all the revisions, can't wait to put this to official play when it's on the wiki :)
#Hive Master
Not sure I understand what "has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower" means. Is the that you look it up in Table: Eidolon Base Statistics for a master 2 levels lower?
#Hive Master
Not sure I understand what "has the base statistics of an eidolon 2 Hit Dice lower" means. Is the that you look it up in Table: Eidolon Base Statistics for a master 2 levels lower?
It's not 2 levels lower, it's 2 HD lower. If we're making adjustments via Hit Dics and size, level -2 or level -4 doesn't do it, you need to actually state 2 or 4 HD lower. so what ever the base stats for a single eidolon at say 12th level is, if you have 2 Small eidolons instead, than each one will have the stats of an eidolon at -2 HD, just look at the table (so it may be 2 or even 3 levels lower, depending on the HD changes).
And the point of adjusting by hit dice is?
And the point of adjusting by hit dice is?
To make sure there is a significant enoygh difference in stats betwen the single eidolon, and two or four of them. If we are allowing full equivalent level stats for all eidolons (according to number), including all evolutions then, there nees to be concrete balnce of lower HD from the stadard single eidolon.
At 10th, a single eidolon would have the stats of a 10th level eidolon (8 HD, +8 BAB, etc.); 2 Small eidolons would each be the equivalent of 8th level eidolons, and 4 tiny would each be equal to 5th level eidolons.
While we may not like the way PF works the multiple eidolons, I think a significant difference in stats (2 HD) is a good balnce for this. Remeber, there will still be adjustments for size, and we also need to take into account those who select the Large or Huge Brood evolutions.
In this case, at 10th, a single Large eidolon would have the stats of a 10th level eidolon (adjusted for Large); the brood would have 2 Medium eidolons would each be the equivalent of 8th level eidolons, and 4 Small would each be equal to 5th level eidolons.
At 13th, a single Huge eidolon would have the stats of a 13th level eidolon (adjusted for Huge); 2 Large eidolons would each be the equivalent of 10th level eidolons, and 4 Medium would each be equal to 8th level eidolons.
While by level may be easiest, but will fluctuate between diference in HD from a single eidolon, I think using HD keeps it at a static difference between a single, two, or four eidolons, that being a difference in HD, which everything tends to be calculated from. Though you'd still use the Eidolon Base Stat table, as you'd advance, you just need to make sure you are always 2 or 4 HD difference from the single eidolon progression. That's my thinking anyways.
What do others think? Should we go reduction by HD (2, 4, etc) or by equivalent level?
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Every MCa has, at the end of the paragraph following its name, who came p with the original concept. The Erudite Bard is Raiderrpg's baby - one of his favorites as well. It was was worked on by all 5 of us who constitute the Multiclass Productions crew. But it was mostly Raider's ideas from start to finish.
Hmm, I must have missed that. Of any case the reason why it is my favorite is because it was the closest to a character concept of mine that I have had for a while.
A travelling illusionist and storyteller, a man who learned his magic from books and yet used it to express the creativity of his mind. His powers were not in music, though he knew how to play, but by the use.of magic learned. His charm and thirst for knowledge were key parts of his personality.
This is Jonathon Wilder: a charming stranger, traveller, illusionist, and storyteller extraordinaire.
The Erudite Bard is the class that bests fits this concept, this idea.