Okay! So I worked a little more on this, I think I have a finished version of the class, complete with racial bonuses and archetypes.

Guerrilla (Final Version)

Please enjoy! I'll perhaps try my hand at more classes soon, looking at mechanics that don't get as much appreciation, just like Improvised Weapons.

And here's a bunch of new tricks (or old ones I reworked) I'm adding to the list;

- Honed Weaponry: The Guerrilla may cast the Refine Improvised Weapon, Desperate Weapon and Disguise weapon spells as spell-like abilities a number of times per day equal to 2 + his Wisdom Modifier

- Munitionist: (Req. Guerrilla level 4) You gain Gunsmithing as a bonus feat, and may use your Survivalism skill to craft firearms and their ammunition.

- Armor Modder: (Req. Versatile Weapon) You can use Survivalism create Armor Modifications for any light armor you possess that has also been crafted with Survivalism, or as part of creating the armor initially.

- Trickster Teamwork: You gain Underhanded Teamwork as a bonus feat. Your allies are also treated as possessing this feat.

- Improved Trickster Teamwork (Req. Underhanded Teamwork, Dirty Fighter): You gain Improved Underhanded Teamwork as a bonus feat. Your allies are also treated as possessing this feat.

- Foul Play: You gain 'Mud in Your Eye' as a bonus feat

Sorry for the late response!

Yeah, I think I can work with some of that Barroom stuff into the abilities.

Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 7th level, when a Guerrilla wields an improvised weapon, he may make cleave attacks as though he possessed the 'cleave' feat. You do not suffer a penalty to your armor class as you would normally when using this ability, but instead your improvised weapon loses hit points equal to the damage made in your first attack (subtracting hardness as normal).

In addition, any improvised weapon you possess that has a hardness of 5 or below is treated as 'fragile', fragile improvised weapons grant a +2 competence bonus to cleave attacks made in this manner.

Greater Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 15th level, a Guerrilla may enhance his temporary arms ability to greater effect. He is now treated as though having the 'great cleave' feat, with no AC penalty. However, the improvised weapon you wield loses hit points equal to the damage dealt to every foe struck bar the last.

In addition, any improvised weapon you wield with the 'broken' condition inflicts an additional 1d4 bleed damage to each foe struck.

Master Survivalist (Ex):
At 20th level, the Guerilla becomes a master of self-sufficiency and adaption, and gains the following benefits;

- He may treat any broken manufactured weapon or weapons created with the Survivalism ability as an improvised weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities.

- He ignores any negative effects imposed by the craft shoddy item feat or the 'broken' condition on any of his equipment, such weapons are automatically treated as being 'fragile'.

- Any improvised weapon the Guerrilla wields that becomes destroyed by any means allows the Guerrilla to make a free dirty trick against a foe within 5ft as an immediate action.

In order to make people actually want to use improvised weapons, I think you need a bigger bonus that comes online earlier and stacks up as you go, and it has to be at least as good as an enchanted weapon, as otherwise people will just do that.

A greatsword does 2d6 damage, which is higher than the improvised weapon damage for most levels. It can be masterwork starting around second or third level, and then slowly get enchanted to do more cool things. Extra attacks is one way to keep pace, I might also suggest some sort of attack bonus for using objects in the area, one which is roughly on par with Automatic Bonus Progression's attack bonus. Try to make it so that enchanted weapons are pretty much on par with improvised ones, and even if it feels like you're handing out a lot of bonuses, you're actually just giving the character a bunch of money to spend on cool gadgets.

The weapon damage for improvised weapons does indeed scale, using a similar progression system to monks/brawlers with Unarmed Strike.

Not quite sure what works best here, I'm looking for an ability that trades the durability of the weapon for a bonus of some kind, in an attempt to reward treating improvised weapons as disposable.

Any suggestions?

an alternate proposal for the 'Temporary Arms' and 'Master Survivalist' abilities;

Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 7th level, when a Guerilla wields an improvised weapon, he may choose to apply the 'fragile' quality to it for the rest of it's use. Upon doing so, he gains an extra attack when using this weapon, but suffers a -2 to it's attack rolls.

Greater Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 15th level, a Guerilla may apply the 'broken' condition to his improvised weapon in addition to being fragile, and gains an additional extra attack. The weapon suffers the normal -2 to it's attack rolls, plus a further -2 from the broken condition. This ability still applies if his weapon becomes broken by any other means.

Master Survivalist (Ex):
At 20th level, the Guerilla becomes a master of self-sufficiency and adaption, and gains the following benefits;

- He may treat any broken manufactured weapon or weapon created with the Survivalism ability as an improvised weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities.

- He ignores any negative effects imposed by the craft shoddy item feat or the 'broken' condition on any of his equipment.

- When using a weapon that is both fragile and broken, the Guerilla may choose to destroy his improvised weapon after successful attack and make a free Dirty Trick combat manuever as an immediate action.

Okay! Gonna necro this old post cos I finally got around to making a 2nd version of this that's a little more balanced and less like an amorphous amalgamation of every other class out there. I've drawn a lot of inspiration from the 'Cad' fighter archetype and 'Tavern Brawler' brawler archetype, but I've tried to make it as close to it's own thing as I can, using new original abilities and an entirely revamped progression system.

Few people become Guerilla's willingly, indeed, many are thrown into the lifestyle through happenstance. Those who have lost everything, or have been shunned by society, or even born into poverty tend to be amongst the caste that forms Guerillas. Their ability to adapt and overcome stems from their ability to imrpovise makeshift solutions to problems where limited options are available, fashioning tools and equipment from scrap and refuse, and using the environment as a potent weapon. Guerilla's scrounge and salvage the battlefield to gather improvised weapons, using their light equipment loads to provide much needed agility in the face of danger, and resort to dirty fighting and underhanded tactics to gain an advantage in combat. A Guerilla is the most capable individual where resources are limited and preparation is minimal, and make for invaluable companions out in unfamiliar territory.

Role: Guerilla's thrive in sticky situations, able to apply clever thinking and crude tehcnique to overcome almost any obstacle. In combat, the Guerilla utilised any nearby object to his advantage, prefering to fight with his surroundings than a traditional weapon, remaining unburdened by cumbersome equipment.

Alignment: Any

Hit Die: d8

Starting Wealth: 1d6 × 10 gp (average 35gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge: (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival, Use Magic Device

Skill Ranks Per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

LEVEL BAB FORT REF WILL DMG SPECIAL
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 1d6 Improvised Arsenal, Improvised Strike, Survivalism
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 1d6 Guerilla Trick, Living Light (+1)
3 +3 +3 +3 +1 1d6 Swift Assembly, Crude Combatant
4 +4 +4 +4 +1 1d8 Guerilla Trick
5 +5 +4 +4 +1 1d8 Clever Implements (Damage type)
6 +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 1d8 Guerilla Trick, Living Light (+2)
7 +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 1d8 Temporary Arms
8 +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 1d10 Guerilla Trick
9 +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 1d10 Clever Implements (Cold Iron and Silver)
10 +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 1d10 Guerilla Trick, Living Light (+3)
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 1d10 Jack of All Trades
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 2d6 Guerilla Trick
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 2d6 Clever Implements (Alignment)
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 2d6 Guerilla Trick, Living Light (+4)
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 2d6 Greater Temporary Arms
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 2d8 Guerilla Trick
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 2d8 Clever Implements (Adamantine)
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 2d8 Guerilla Trick, Living Light (+5)
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 2d8 Instant Assembly
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 2d10 Master Survivalist, Guerilla Trick

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
A Guerrilla is proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Improvised Arsenal:
A Guerrilla is a versatile combatant, utilising his surroundings to improvise weaponry to devastating effect. He gains Throw Anything and Catch Off-Guard as bonus feats.

Improvised Strike:
A Guerilla is a master of imrpovising weapons in the field, whether it's a bottle or tankard in the heat of a tavern brawl, or grabbing the nearest set of tools and putting them to new purpose against your enemies. When a Guerilla makes an attack with an improvised weapon, he instead may strike with the damage values shown below. If the damage is less than what the improvised weapon offers, he may instead choose which damage value to use before the attack is made.
As the Guerilla advances in levels, his damage with improvised weapons increases, allowing him to make even the most unassuming object a deadly weapon. A Small Guerrilla deals less damage than the amount given there with her improvised weapon attacks attacks, while a Large Guerrilla deals more damage; see the following table.
LEVEL SMALL MEDIUM LARGE
1-3 1d4 1d6 1d8
4-7 1d6 1d8 2d6
8-11 1d8 1d10 2d8
12-15 1d10 2d6 3d6
16-19 2d6 2d8 3d8
20 2d8 2d10 4d8

Survivalism (Ex):
A Guerrilla's inventive problem-solving doesn't stop at improvising weapons, he may also improvise other equipment. He gains the 'Craft Shoddy Item' feat, and may substitute his Survival skill in place of his Craft skill when using this feat.
By doing so, he gains a proficiency bonus to Survival equal to his Guerrilla level when crafting items in this fashion. This does not prevent Guerillas from crafting with his usual craft skills, nor does it change how craft skills function. However, you may not use this ability in conjunction with other crafting feats.

Living Light (Ex):
At 2nd level, the Guerilla learns that a light load can augment his evasive techniques.
So long as you are carrying no more than a light load, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus to your AC and a +1 bonus to your Reflex Saves. This bonus increases by a further +1 every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. You will lose this bonus if your equipment exceeds a light load, or if you are immobilised or helpless.

Guerilla Tricks:
At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, a Guerilla may select from a pool of tricks to augment his abilities. Unless otherwise specified, these tricks may only be taken once.

Swift Assembly (Ex):
At 3rd level, a Guerrilla can create shoddy items with astounding speed. It takes a Guerrilla half the normal amount of time to create shoddy items with his Survivalism ability.

Crude Combatant (Ex):
At 3rd level, a Guerilla learns how to use his wits instead of his brawn when fighting dirty. You can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when performing dirty trick combat manuevers. At 12th level, you may add both your strength and your dexterity modifier to dirty trick combat manuevers.

Clever Implements (Ex):
At 5th level, a Guerilla may alter the type of damage dealt by an improvised weapon to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage during his turn.
At 7th level, his improvised weapons are treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 15th level, the Guerilla chooses one alignment component: chaotic, evil, good, or lawful; his improvised weapon strikes also count as this alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. (This alignment component cannot be the opposite of the Guerilla's actual alignment, such as a good Guerilla choosing evil strikes.)
At 17th level, his improvised weapons are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 7th level, when a Guerilla wields an improvised weapon, he may sacrifice the weapon's hit points to gain an advantage on her next attack during that turn. When he successfully lands an attack with an improvised weapon he may choose to sacrifice hit points on the weapon equal to the damage made in the attack, in doing so he gains a +2 competence bonus on the next attack that turn.
This ability can be used multiple times per turn, so long as the Guerilla has another attack action available. If the weapon gains the 'broken' condition, the Guerilla may no longer use this ability with the weapon.
At appropriate levels, the Guerilla uses the hardness of the materials listed in Clever Implements for his weapons when calculating object damage (10 hardness for cold Iron, progressing to 20 hardness for Adamantine).

Jack of All Trades (Ex):
At 11th level, the Guerilla can use any skill, even if the skill normally requires him to be trained. At 16th level, the Guerilla considers all skills to be class skills. At 19th level, the Guerilla can take 10 on any skill check, even if it is not normally allowed.

Greater Temporary Arms (Ex):
At 15th level, when making an attack with an improvised weapon with the 'broken' condition, he may use his Temporary Arms ability to further augment his next attack. A Guerilla can choose to gain a +5 competence bonus on his next attack with any broken improvised weapon, but upon doing so the weapon is destroyed at the end of his turn, even if he does not hit.

Instant Assembly (Ex):
At 19th level, an Guerilla can create shoddy items with his Survivalism ability with almost supernatural speed. He can create any shoddy item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Survival check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation.

Master Survivalist (Ex):
At 20th level, the Guerilla becomes a master of self-sufficiency and adaption. Whenever he makes an attack with the Greater Temporary Arms ability, he may make a free Dirty Trick combat manuever at the end of his turn, using the last remnants of his weapon to inflict a little more suffering on his foes.
In addition, the Guerilla is no longer affected by any negative affects by the 'broken' condition on any of his equipment, but they may still be damaged or destroyed as normal. Broken weapons may be used as improvised weapons by the Guerilla, treating them as such.

All of mine, nobody else's... I'm totally the best.

Nah, in all honesty I've had fun with Plague Doctor, Demolitionist and Witch Doctor.

But I'm a sucker for Alchemists so I'm probably a little biased :P

The feel is more alchemist archetype or a hybrid. Not enough special features to make it stand out in its own, but I like the concept. I wonder if Investigator wouldn’t be a better chassis to start with. Guerrilla feels weaker than either due to lack of spells/formulae.

Skills: add bluff, climb, knowledge (local), swim
These guys are adaptable and can blend in to the crowd.

Bombs: I think they should get scrap bombs and add rocket discovery.

Survivalism: good flavor but needs more oomph. How about using craft to give makeshift bonuses or modifications to weapons and armor that are more limited like minutes/level? Use a pool of survival/makeshift points?

Crude combatant: make this a trick. Unless the guerrilla chooses dirty tricks, this is useless.
Then add a truck to use level as bab when performing dirty trick. Or stack effects with improvises arsenal.

I was considering changing the class to be a rogue or ninja archetype of sorts, seeming that rogues can get bombs and bomb discoveries now through proper investment in their Rogue Talents. Rogue and Brawler were definitely the most influential in the design of this class, so I may make it a hybrid of those two and stick it on the MCA thread.

Amendments to current Tricks and some new ones;

- Bonus Feat: You may select from the following pool of feats in place of a Trick; Improvised Weapon Mastery, Improvised Defense, Torch Fighter Improvisational Healer, Field Repair, Chairbreaker, Nature's Weapons, Tool Optimiser, Two-Weapon Drunkard Combat, Improved Dirty Fighting, Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick, Dirty Trick Master, Greater Dirty Trick, Underhanded Teamwork, Improved Underhanded Teamwork and Mud in Your Eye. The Guerrilla must have the Base Attack Bonus and any feats listed here as requirements of gaining the feat, he may otherwise choose them without meeting any other prerequisites.

- Artificer: You gain an Item Creation Feat as a bonus feat. Your Guerrilla level counts as your Caster Level when meeting the prerequisites. Item Creation Feats may be affected by Survivalism if the Guerrilla so chooses.

- Expanded Arsenal: (Prerequisite level 6) Your Improvised Arsenal damage extends to any Simple Weapon that is not enchanted, modified or otherwise different to its base values.

- Armor Modder: (Prerequisite level 6) You can use your Clever Construction ability apply Armor Modifications to any Light Armor you are wearing. This Light Armor must be crafted with the Survivalism feat in order to work.

Hello, I am pretty new to this community as well. I had a question pertaining to standard Multiclassing with these Archetypes.

Primarily, is it legal to multiclass between two classes while one of them (or even perhaps both) has a Multiclass Archetype with the secondary class being the other class levels taken? And would any shared or similar class features overlap or stack (or other)? For instance, a Heritage Overlord (Bloodrager/Sorcerer) and a base Sorcerer, is this legal? Would the class feature they share (Bloodlines) stack with one another, or would they overlap (and would each class need to select the same bloodline, presuming it was not traded out with an archetype)?

Presuming the above is not legal, what about Multiclassing two classes with Multiclass Archetypes that both have the same Secondary class (for instance, a Heritage Overlord (Bloodrager/Sorcerer) and a Heartbeat Assailant (Brawler/Sorcerer) )?

Thanks in advance for any replies, and good job to all the creators of this content, many of these archetypes concepts are quite amazing and it is great to see what kind of characters one could make with them!

We came to a similar impasse when Hybrid classes were first introduced, and we came to the conclusion than if both classes share the same ability it would stack (such as bloodline abilities).

By nature, Multiclass Archetypes weren't designed to be used with other classes, they were made to address the problems faced when multiclassing normally, such as lower stats, fewer impactful abilities and collision of mechanics.

I'd ask your DM first, and if they greenlight it, go for it.

Thanks for the feedback Wolin,

Bombs to me seemed like a good ability to have for guerrilla warfare style fighting, and allows for greater versatility through the use of different discoveries. Unlike alchemists, these bombs are far cruder, relying on wisdom instead of intelligence. The original vision I had in mind was akin to molotov cocktails and pipe bombs, something that fit the improvisation theme. It also helped tie into the crafty nature of the class to help distance it from being a purely martial class like rogues or brawlers.

Bombs do in fact make use of the class abilities, though they do not benefit from the damage bonus from Improvised Arsenal. This is to avoid bombs being able to reach absurd damage potential (10d6 +2d10 seems a little OP for me)

the Artificer Advanced Trick was intended to allow crafting feats to benefit from the same cost reduction as normal goods, and applying the same weaknesses. I may need to amend the description better and exclude feats that rely on spells to function. But to answer your question, you don't need any feats as a prerequisite, but it would have little function without at least one.

As for the Guerrilla Tricks, I see what you mean about toe-treading. I implemented advanced talents since the Slayer class also borrowed them, and I feel the class could benefit from accessing them. The class shouldn't be too broken in doing so since it cannot access talents that effect sneak attack or other rogue-specific abilities. Guerrilla Tricks were partially based off Slayer Talents, allowing access to certain external class mechanics by 'spending' a point on them so to speak.

Making one slight change.

I'm removing Equipment Trick from the list of Bonus Feats and creating a Guerrilla Trick from it;

- Dangerous Instruments: You may select one equipment type from the Equipment Trick feat. You may use all of it's associated equipment tricks without meeting the prerequisites.

Hi guys, just finished the first draft of my new homebrew class 'Guerilla', my first original class after working on Multiclass Archetypes and other sub-classes.

I'm looking for some input as to what could be done to improve or balance it, I -think- I've got it fairly balanced when drawn up against the newer martial based classes, but I don't want to presume that just because one class seems powerful in one regard they all must follow the same format.

A little blurb about this class; it's designed to be adaptive, self-sufficient, and a jack of all trades. Not so much in the sense it's a sneaky magic fighter, more so that it is capable of overcoming challenges with a little improvisation and cunning, having a broader skills set rather than something more refined. I've based the class mainly from other classes that offer similar playstyles, but do not fully realise the concept, mainly Rogue, Alchemist, Investigator, Brawler, Bard, Slayer and Ranger. I plan to release some archetypes alongside this class down the line, such as Arsonist, Mechanic and Ambush Artist.

So, here's the basic draft I created, anything constructive you have to offer would be most helpful, since this is a new challenge for me! (I do understand that the tables are a little hard to read, the forum doesn't seem to support tables or tab-spaces between text.)

Hi Revenge!

Typically when a certain class combination has been done before, we only use it again where a concept is different enough to warrant there being two of the same hybrid. So if your concept is different enough to the Crow Druid or Blackthorn, we would be able to work with it.

That being said, I do believe that Ninja/Druid has yet to be taken, so if you'd like to use that as a basis for your class then it's all yours. Otherwise, we can have a look at what you've got and see what we can do with it :)

Nice work El, now all that's left is to work on more :P

Hey guys,

Sorry for the long absence, it's been a wild ride for me this year balancing education and work, but I'm glad things have been progressing a little, MCAs have always been a fun project for me.

I probably missed the spike in activity but I've got some old classes from the backburner I've been meaning to work on, and I'm looking forward to working on other people's proposals too. :)

Sorry about being around less nowadays, final semester of uni, lots of work to cram in, little time for hobbies!

Glad to see that the community wiki is progressing nicely! I've still got the notes from this thread and last to post up when I can :)

Callum wrote:

There's some impressive work here!

One of my players would really like to run a druid/paladin. Ultimately, he'd want to use bits of the stonelord and menhir savant archetypes, making a menhir-lord, but I wonder if it would make sense to start with a combination of the base classes?

Just posted this over in your other thread, Callum.

How about this? Called it the Druadin for now, but you can rename it however you want.

** spoiler omitted **...

I like the look of this so far, El, but I'm curious how you justify level 6 spellcasting compared to basic paladin level 4 spellcasting?

Also, I think the focus on stone might be a little restrictive, perhaps the class could also be useful against constructs, plant creatures and fey that are made or earth, stone, and plant matter?

if anyone has time to brew can you brew vigilante synthesis summoner archtype

I had an idea to do something like that at some point, but the 'Synthesis' it one of those classes that are often banned or taboo from games because it's seriously flawed and overpowered.

I might try using Druid, Alchemist or Hunter to replicate similar effects though.

Running Draft

I hate to double post, but, this is what I have so far. It has some general thoughts and notes as far as concept goes.

Please feel free to assault my work.

I like how it's shaping up so far, I also agree with the notes that Johnny Devo has put forth.

I would also suggest that conjured weapons and ammo from the 'manifest' and 'mind munitions' should be detailed as though they -function- as an identical standard weapon/ammo type, and at later levels becomes masterwork in quality. However, it should not be treated as a physical weapon, so spells like Heat Metal or abilities like Disarm have no affect on it, though it should require concentration to maintain, and if broke the weapons/ammo disappear.

I have a Cleric/Kineticist I will polish up and submit. All I have to figure out is if it should keep 9th level spellcasting or reduce it to 6th.

Kineticist is a wierd one for sure, from how I've pieced it together, it seems like a caster that works similar to alchemist's bombs and a whole bunch of utility spells.

On the topic of such, here's the Kineticist project I've been working on. I'm hoping to expand the list of available blasts, and have formulated a working spreadsheet of potential combinations;

Kineticist Expanded

I'd like to hopefully integrate this into future MCAs, and work on it on a seperate thread if anybody is interested.

Welcome Eternal King!

We don't currently have a Gunslinger/Psychic just yet, so that one's certainly available for creation (as are most multiclasses using the occult adventures material).

Gunslingers (as you can probably tell) are my bane, along with monks and anything with a ki/grit pool, but I can certainly help out with building the class.

@Avoltoro - As for the Bloodgunner, I'm working on suitable replacement bloodrage powers for the 1st abilities of each bloodline.

@Johnny_Devo - The Kinetic/Magus looks about finished to me, all we need is a name now, and I'll put it in my folder ready to dump over to the official page when I've accumulated enough MCAs.

Hey again!

I've been rather busy with university work myself, and handling some other side projects in between, so I've been a bit absent myself, so nothing to worry about.

I should maybe enhance on what I said a while back, I was thinking of removing the 1st level bloodrager power, yes, but I will be replacing it with something more fitting to the ranged theme. The 1st level bloodrager pwoers are typically melee oriented last I checked.

Well, in a way, the kinetic blast already is occupying quite a number of spell slots. Not only did I give the archetype diminished spellcasting, I also took away "spell recall". At level 4, that amounts to a loss of a cantrip slot, 1 level 1 spell, 1 level 2 spell, and whatever is in your arcane pool worth of "levels" of spells. That's quite a lot as a trade for a magus, but if I were to reverse that and instead make the blasts cost spell slots, this archetype would suddenly be running out of resources twice as fast as the base magus, and then be left with even fewer options than the base magus when he does run out.

Hmm, I see your point, I think we can probably keep that aspect as is for now then, though I would say it's probably best to get rid of cantrips in general for this class, as utility wild talents might be made redundant, and that way we can make it a proper 1-4 caster just like Ranger and Paladin.

As for the role I wanted it to fill, I essentially wanted to replace all of the martial ability of the magus with a loose resemblance of the kineticist, while still maintaining the flavor of the magus wading into melee to mix it up with "sword" and spell.

Have you also considered looking at other base Magus Archetypes for ideas? a Magus by practice does not have to be restricted to melee, some use throwing weapons and bows, it may also be worth looking at Melee oriented Kineticist archetypes too.

Most of my main inspiration typically draws from a base Archetype, and from there I expand upon it, it helps balance things out easier and gauge potential and flaws.

Sorry I've been gone for a little while, been a busy few weeks recently!

@Johnny_Devo, I think making kinetic blast advance at the same rate as magus spells is both a good way to balance the skill when matched against spell potential, and makes it far easier and more streamlined when reading.

That being said, I think kinetic blast should expend spell slots, if you're aiming to keep magus spellcasting (which personally I think might be a bad choice considering kinetic blasts are an alternative to heavy spellcasting, though much in the same way alchemist bombs are)

As I see it, Kinetic Blasts and Infusions replace offensive spellcasting, while Wild Talents replace utility and defensive spellcasting.

I'd say you should take this into consideration for balance sake, decide what role you want Kineticist to occupy, and what role you want to retain from Magus.

Tyrannical wrote:

Johnny_Devo wrote:

Has anyone worked on a Magus/Kineticist MCA? I have some pretty neat ideas floating around that I might want to put into writing.

Hi Johnny_Devo!

I don't believe it's been done! Occult Class MCAs are a rarity, though Kinetecist is something I plan to be doing plenty work with, so shoot!

Okay! I have a very early draft, with simply focusing on meshing the classes together. It actually took a lot to make them feel like one class. I put effort into making it not too powerful, but I'm also worried that it still might be a little too powerful.

I don't know the regular posting rules for this thread, so I just put it on a google document.

Anyone on that link can leave comments, I guess? Not sure quite how this process goes. Thoughts?

I was a little confused at first, since it says Kineticist/Magus, but I'm guessing it's intended to be other way around, a Magus/Kineticist?

I would tweak Kinetic Combat for the sake of balance/ability management, as it comes across as being a little complicated to use. I would say that it should function like Spell combat, though your spell hand can be used for blasts in addition to spells, and your weapon hand may be used for kinetic blade. Kinetic Blade itself would occupy your hand, so making it as though your hands must be free conflicts with this.

Glad to see this is still going on, or more that it started back up again, perhaps I can jump in and offer a few ideas?

Also, given how the site is down is there a chance anyone might be able to get me the MCA that I come up with the concept for before? They're not all in the PDF files provided.

Welcome back Jonathan!

Ideas are always welcome, the floor is open to any new ideas since we're currently in a state of limbo in regards to feedback.

If there's something specific you're looking for, and it doesn't appear to be in the MCA PDFs, you could try searching through the dump.

MCA Dump

The dump is a little harder to navigate, and a little hard to read with the formatting, but if something existed on the MCAwiki it should be there, if not, it was likely implemented too late to be added to the wiki or lost when the wiki closed.

Sadness. Anyone got the witch/ninja mca saved somewhere I can have?

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/multiclass-archetypes/pdf-files

Arcane Masters I Critique.

Has anyone worked on a Magus/Kineticist MCA? I have some pretty neat ideas floating around that I might want to put into writing.

Hi Johnny_Devo!

I don't believe it's been done! Occult Class MCAs are a rarity, though Kinetecist is something I plan to be doing plenty work with, so shoot!

Any idea when the paladin/gunslinger hybrid or ninja/witch hybrid will be posted to the new site?

Things are progressing slowly, I can say that much. Unfortunately I'm only responsible for adding new material (which I will do in batches) instead of updating the old.

Hey, just checking in to let you know the wiki is down. Apparently they don't do free non educational wikis anymore.

Hi Alick,

Our MCA Wiki has been down for some time now, and we are in the process of moving all our collected works over to the pathfinder community, you can find us here;

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/multiclass-archetypes

until everything is transferred, you can access our work in PDF format (look for PDFs 'Critiques' for the full works)

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/classes/multiclass-archetypes/pdf-files

so! up next is the Prowling Poisoner and the Bloodgunner. It may take a while for AVoltoro to get back to us so I'm putting it on a low priority, so any other ideas are free to be posted up if anybody would like!

There's still opportunity for sharing ideas on the Bloodgunner, but without AVoltoro's feedback it's going to be hard to capture his standards.

Okay, here's the final version of the Cursebound, I'll get this up on the community page as soon as I can.

Ah, bit of error in communication on my part there. the Bloodgunner does not gain Bloodrage, but any of his Bloodline Abilities that would require him to Bloodrage to activate instead spend a point of grit in it's place to maintain.

I'll write up a final version of the Cursebound soon, and then I'll hand it off to the community page for all to see :)

Tyrannical wrote:

@AVoltoro

As for the Bloodgunner, from what it seems is you're looking to make a series of combat oriented bloodlines, which itself may take a while. I'd suggest what I mentioned before, and instead of using Gunslinger/Sorcerer we use Gunslinger/Bloodrager, and use the Bloodrager's bloodlines to fit the combat niche of the class, while forming "Bloodgrit" from both Bloodrage and Grit.

See I looked into that in my free time. For the bloodgunner, we're looking at Something that just uses grit points to spend on rounds of bloodrage?

Most bloodrager bloodlines are melee oriented in nature, we gleem this from the Abyssal and Draconic bloodlines, which give access to claws as melee weapons. Gunslingers avoid melee at almost all costs, so what good would these first level powers do? I'm kinda on the fence about this concept, as I don't see it working unless one made up entirely new bloodlines.

My suggesting would be to keep full soceror bloodlines for the class. have the 4th level spellcasting be based of the bloodrager's spell list, and add a new ability in, though it might turn them slightly into a magus copy.

For 1 point of grit, have the bloodgunner be able to channel any spell or bloodline ability with the range of "touch" or "ranged Touch" through his gun's next attack. Essentially make this a ranged version of a magus's spellstrike. this allows the gunner to feel like they are enchanting their bullets with arcane energies. Unlike bloodrager bloodlines, sorc bloodlines are full of ranged touch effects.

Not to worry, I wasn't intending on giving the Bloodgunner melee based bloodrage powers, The 1st level bloodrage abilities would be lost, but all others retained and progress as normal. Here is some basic ideas of what I had in mind using Gunslinger/Bloodrager:

Does anybody have backups of the Hive Master's Tunneling, Vermin Carapace, Vermin Soverign, and Worm Call hexes? I've been wanting to play one but I can't find those hexes.

Hi Sage Miller,

The Hive Master and it's new Hexes and be found in this PDF, the Hexes are highlighted after the class abilities.

Champions of the Wild Critique PDF

--

@AVoltoro

As for the Bloodgunner, from what it seems is you're looking to make a series of combat oriented bloodlines, which itself may take a while. I'd suggest what I mentioned before, and instead of using Gunslinger/Sorcerer we use Gunslinger/Bloodrager, and use the Bloodrager's bloodlines to fit the combat niche of the class, while forming "Bloodgrit" from both Bloodrage and Grit.

Okay, since there's no word from AVoltoro for a while now, I'll go ahead and post up the revision of the Prowling Poisoner for anyone that would care to see it, feel free to suggest anything that would help balance it out or improve upon the running theme.

Has a Rogue/Monk or Monk/Rogue been done? I was thinking about doing a Gambler/Scoundrel type class that blended them giving a luck pool instead of ki, and based around Charisma.

Hi Icemann1077

Rogue Monk has been done, though I believe Monk/Rogue is up for grabs

Has Paladin/Alchemist been done? Trading out a lot of the magic of the paladin for alchemic devices that acomplish much the same sounds really cool.

I'm afraid Paladin/Alchemist has been done, in the form of the 'Sacred Illuminary'. Though Alchemist/Paladin has not yet been done.

That being said, there is an Investigator/Paladin of my own design called the 'Astute Physician' that focuses on replicating the abilities of the paladin through alchemical medicine.

--

Also, regarding the Bloodgunner, I'm thinking from what's been said that Gunslinger/Bloodrager is the best direction to go for what
AVoltoro is looking for, but if there's no word from him soon I'll post up the revision of the Prowling Poisoner (which will be Ranger/Investigator, given Investigator/Ranger has been done before)

Tyrannical wrote:

Here's a quick revision of the Cursebound I devised working in some of the proposed tweaks.

** spoiler omitted **...

This is great actually. it looks like this archetype is really nearing completion. Just a few things to note:

1. Its funny, but the spiritualist already has every single class skill that the witch possesses. keeping the line about adding three class skills thus becomes redundant because, well, you can't.

2. I see what you meant about the phantom's legitimate spellcasting. I think I put a typo somewhere, but I meant for the phantom to only be able to cast patron spells, not every spell the cursebound knows as well. Although, when you add this in, it really does drive home the witchy feel of the phantom. I'm prone to keeping it. it really adds to the diversity of what the phantom can do. This way, the phantom has hexs, patron spells, and a weaker list to chose from and cements the idea of the caster phantom.

3. Arcane understanding. I like this version. I think we should keep it. A floating witch spell known once to 4 times a day really does improve upon versatility, but since the witch spell list isn't as broken as the wizard it's not too op.

4. Perhaps we could change the 20th level capstone? Instead of what spiritualists normally gets, make it something like Greater Arcane Understanding, which allows them to freely cast ANY witch spell (including 9th) once per day, without using a slot.

5. The curse bound is by far heavily reliant on their spell slots, more so than the base class or really a lot of other 6th level casters. Would it be possible to give them an extra spell per day of each level or is that too much? if we did push them that route I'd remove their bonus weapon proficiencies beyond normal.

1. Noted, I'll put it in the next revision.

2. If the phantom can only cast patron spells, then we can remove the -2 caster level nerf, since it's spellcasting is already limited.

3. Glad you like it, it should bring more witch-related magics into the class!

4. Perhaps instead of immunity to mind-effecting spells, the Cursebound is immune to spells with the Curse descriptor, as well as hostile witch Hexes?

5. I think with the ability to exchange Spiritualist spells for Witch spells, in addition to access to patron spells, may make additional spell slots per day may be overpowered.

However, I'd wager if you really wanted to go down that route, we should trade the bonus to Caster Level the Arcane Bonded Manifestation ability grants.

So since the wikispaces sight got taken down is there anywhere I can find the rest of the created content other than what's in the dump since the dump only seems to contain A-M?

Until the old content is put up on the community page, most of what we have can be found in the PDFs labelled 'critiques'.

Here's a quick revision of the Cursebound I devised working in some of the proposed tweaks.

Dread Knight wrote:

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Dread Knight wrote:

I remember there being a Monk/Oracle one that wasn't Elemental Savant. I think it was like Closed Eyed Oracle or something and there was a Zen Mystery. What happened to it?

It was an Oracle/Monk called the Open Eyed Oracle.

** spoiler omitted **...

Ah yes thank you do you or anyone else know where a full write up for Open Eyed Oracle can be found?

if i can find the doc where all my mcas were kept i'll post it up.

Got you covered! It can be found here in the Divine Champions PDF Critique

These are really good suggestions. You might be right about the phantom's spellcasting might be a bit too much, so I definitely would let them be cast at -2 caster level. In the same vein, I would go further and base the phantom's hex dcs off 1/2 the phantom's own hd rather than 1/2 the spiritualists level, to be more on par with other phantom dcs. Its a nerf, sure, but its not that punishing.

As for arcane understanding, what you are suggesting is basically spontaneous access to most of the entire witch spell list at a cost for two spellslots? isn't that a bit much?

Hmm. perhaps if the Cursebound were to trade a Spiritualist spell to cast a lower witch spell? (trading a 5th level spiritualist spell for a 4th level witch spell for example)

Bloodgunner

I think I understand what you mean AVoltoro, and if this is the case, I think it may be more fitting for the class to be a Gunslinger/Bloodrager, and combining the Grit and Bloodrage abilities into a single 'point spend' system. Bloodrager also has more combat-oriented bloodline powers that would compliment the Bloodgunner theme.

The Cursebound

This class seems fairly well balanced to start off with, though it does need a little tweaking to fit.

I would suggest that the Arcane Understanding ability instead allows the Cursebound to sacrifice 2 of her spells per day from any level (1-6) to instead cast a Witch spell of equal spell level.

I'd also say that allowing an incorporeal phantom limitless spellcasting may be a bit overpowered, even if it spends the Cursebound's spells per day. I'd suggest that spells cast by the Cursebound's Phantom are weaker somehow, since they cannot properly manifest themselves physically. Maybe if they were to work at -2 caster level in addition to spending Cursebound spells per day it may be more balanced.

Hi Denorism,

As Lindley said there's no occult classes just yet, so spiritualist/witch is up for grabs. If you have a working idea, feel free to post it up.

I'll be working on a refined version of the Prowling Poisoner soon, does anyone have any input for it in it's current form?

I devised a list of Investigator Talents available to the prowling poisoner and the expanded extract list;

Tyrannical wrote:

Browman wrote:

Toxic strike seems to be weirdly worded and I had to read it a couple of times to figure out. What is the DC of the save vs Toxic strike?

Same saves as the initial attack plus the poison, so two separate saves to land the hit.

That is not clear to me from the current way it is written.

changed it to be more comprehensible;

Toxic Strike: At 4th level, the Prowling Poisoner can make a Toxic Strike against an enemy, enhancing upon the virulent nature of the poison in use, becoming increasingly deadly or narcotic. Making a Toxic Strike requires the Prowling Poisoner to attack with a poisoned weapon, and should the target fail the saves against both the initial attack and the poison, it is subject to additional Acid or Non-lethal damage (decided when the Prowling Poisoner Makes the Attack).

Toxic strike seems to be weirdly worded and I had to read it a couple of times to figure out. What is the DC of the save vs Toxic strike?

Same saves as the initial attack plus the poison, so two separate saves to land the hit.

Since Browman and AVoltoro may take a while tweaking their concepts, I'll post up one of my own MCAs in the meantime, and whenever either concept is ready to be posted they'll be up next!

I could use a little help ironing out the creases if anyone wants to take a look;

Has anyone done gunslinger/sorcerer and bard/sorcerer? I have ideas for both, but it would require separate types of bloodlines, like with the bloodrager.

Hi AVoltoro,

Neither of those combinations have been done according to the PDF Critiques, so either are up for grabs. Creating new Bloodlines is fine, as many of our previous classes have done so before, highlighted under the 'Suppliments' section, and in the general dump.