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I'm thinking of building a Zen Archer with a dip in an arcane class. Why? Cuz their AC sucks and I want Gravity Bow. With just 1 level of arcane I can cast Mage Armor. I can buy a Wand of Gravity Bow. Plus I'd have the cantrips.
I want to get my AC near or above 20.
Build stats: S-14; D-10; C-12; I-10; W-20; Cha-5
Dwarf
Thoughts?
I don't think you can cast 1st level arcane spells with an Int 10 and a Cha 5..
EDIT: Wizard seems like the best bet, if you bump your Int a little. Maybe specialize in Transmutation, or Divination (Foresight)? Scribe Scroll will help a lot. Magical Knack is pretty much a given.
You need a casting stat of at least 11.
If you're only doing a single level dip, Sorcerer is better than Wizard, except you're a Dwarf.
My own experience with playing at a table with a Zen Archer is that like any ranged build, they tend to be machine-guns around 8th or 9th level.
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I wouldn't dip at all, you are out of melee most of the time so AC isn't that important, and if you want to raise it add some dex to your build.
If you do dip, I would go with a empyreal sorcerer to use wisdom as your casting stat, and then think about going arcane archer, but I really think zen archers are best served by staying pure.
And if you are starting at level one you are going to be terrible for your first two levels until you get wis to hit.
I wouldn't dip at all, you are out of melee most of the time so AC isn't that important, and if you want to raise it add some dex to your build.
Even then, if his wisdom is that high, he's going to have high AC regardless.
I'm thinking of building a Zen Archer with a dip in an arcane class. Why? Cuz their AC sucks and I want Gravity Bow. With just 1 level of arcane I can cast Mage Armor. I can buy a Wand of Gravity Bow. Plus I'd have the cantrips.
I want to get my AC near or above 20.
Build stats: S-14; D-10; C-12; I-10; W-20; Cha-5
DwarfThoughts?
Their AC don't suck. At all.
Don't dump dex, make him a Qiggong monk and grab the Barkskin option as soon as you can.This, plus their monk abilities, the fact they don't provoke when shooting in melee and the +4 dodge on a ki point spent makes them actually reliable tanks.
Hell you can even max out Sense motive and grab Snake style if you're that worried of the AC of a bow using terror with an insane mobility.
You still desperately want magic armor and gravity bow? Buy scrolls and stay friendly with your fellow casters, don't spend a level for that.
Be a half-elf.
Take Arcane Training ART.
Count as a wizard, level one.
Use wands with guaranteed success.
A wand of mage armor costs only 750 GP.
It will last you through half your career.
Use your Skill Focus for a Knowledge Skill.
Get a Familiar. Don't skip on UMD.
The path is Eldritch Heritage and then Improved Familiar.
Now the familiar can buff you, while you shoot.
A familiar has many other advantages, too.
All of this is also good advice for a melee focused monk.
He needs the AC more and can get a quick +4
from his familiar imp, at combats dawn.
A familiar is like a family, no one
is complete without one.
If you play with the playtest matrial.
Dip shaman - with nature - replace dex with Wis, givning you 2x Wis to AC (if allowed).
Potions of mage armor, they work.
perhaps someone from the party can cast mage armor? - even better.
Take a inqusitor dip -infiltrator with conversion inquisition - with Irori a deity - select the trait wisdom in the flesh (stealth) - now you have wis to diplomcy, bluff and stealth - TWICE!..
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This is for PFS.
How about this set of adjusted scores:
S-14; D-12; C-14; I-12; W-19; Cha-5
Now, I can take a level of Wizard (still not sure yet which type). I think the bonded object might be good for an extra spell (Mage Armor, Shield, Gravity Bow....something like that).
As suggested above, I just improved by Reflex save and AC. Plus, I'm a bit better at skills.
I can purchase a wand of one of those and use it over a number of adventures. Also, I can extra scrolls for whatever. The only drawback is that I need to try to buff before the battle begins and 9 times out of 10, the table is rolling for Initiative before we realize we're going into battle.
I like the idea of Empyreal Sorcerer (for using WIS as main stat), but at this point I don't own Ultimate Magic yet.
I think this build just might work. I'd love suggestions on how to "build" on this build and improve it through feat and magic item selection as he levels up.
You're a Zen Archer. You really don't need to improve it. By about 4th or 5th level, you'll make a mockery of any combat encounter in PFS. Like every archer that can do math, you'll be for Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots.
Your big things to improve:
1) Buy a +1 Holy Bow when you get the chance.
2) Buy Boots of Speed
3) Buy an assortment of Bane Arrows (in lots of 50) so you have a selection on hand.
What eventually happens is that you're using ki for an extra shot, the boots for an extra shot, and are pretty much hitting with everything for about 23-29 points per hit times seven hits.
Which means you single-round most targets from 110 feet away. Most encounters can't handle that. While it's fun, in a theorycrafting way, to make the Most Uber Optimized Killinating Machine you can - and PFS scenarios with 3-5 combat encounters encourage this...it's more fun to build that character than it is to play that character, or play with that character. (I've seen this build wreck scenarios multiple times.)
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Now, that you put it that way, yeah, he can be quite devastating. I just want to be not a one-trick pony and only be good at ranged and be useless in melee. If I have Mage Armor up, I can still use my fists if need be.
There are many PFS encounters where everyone is in close quarters...I hate those, but I have to find a way to be useful then also. And, yes, I realize very soon the ZA can attach without AOO using a bow, which is awesome.
But, being able to cast 0-1 level spells and able to use scrolls could come in handy in a pinch (think Fly, Prot from Energy, Prot from Evil, etc.).
How would an arrow cause 23-29 damage per hit? A +1 Bow (+2 STR) with Wpn Spcl + Deadly Aim gives me 1D8+1+2+2+2, 8-15.
You're a Zen Archer. You really don't need to improve it. By about 4th or 5th level, you'll make a mockery of any combat encounter in PFS. Like every archer that can do math, you'll be for Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots.
Your big things to improve:
1) Buy a +1 Holy Bow when you get the chance.
2) Buy Boots of Speed
3) Buy an assortment of Bane Arrows (in lots of 50) so you have a selection on hand.What eventually happens is that you're using ki for an extra shot, the boots for an extra shot, and are pretty much hitting with everything for about 23-29 points per hit times seven hits.
Which means you single-round most targets from 110 feet away. Most encounters can't handle that. While it's fun, in a theorycrafting way, to make the Most Uber Optimized Killinating Machine you can - and PFS scenarios with 3-5 combat encounters encourage this...it's more fun to build that character than it is to play that character, or play with that character. (I've seen this build wreck scenarios multiple times.)
Now add Holy (+7) or Bane (+9), or both (+16).
Prethen - I like the way you think.
I'm playing level 1 sorceror and then mixing levels of fighter and ZAM. I'm 4th level now and will be taking empower spell, extend spell and maximize spell in the next several levels to make Gravity Bow outstanding. Along with the Magical Knack trait, my arrows should then be at 18 damage (3d6) plus any modifier and the spell will last 6 rounds.
If that's still your inclination, do it.
Magical Knack puts Mage Armor at 6 hours duration at 3rd level.
At early levels you'll like having Mage Armor; at later levels when you have other AC options, use all your slots for GB.
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NI just want to be not a one-trick pony and only be good at ranged and be useless in melee. If I have Mage Armor up, I can still use my fists if need be.
You are missing the point, After 3rd level, Zen Archers use their bow for Melee as well as Ranged. You do not need mage armor to boost your AC with a wisdom that high, Barkskin from Qinggong is all you will need. Unlike any punchy monk, you can also use your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor instead of an amulet of mighty fists.
A single level of Sorc/Wiz isn't giving you more options if all you are using it for is Mage Armor and gravity bow, it's taking away from your monk and zen abilites.
Empower Spell and Maximize Spell don't work on Gravity Bow. Gravity Bow enhances the weapon's damage; it's not the spell's damage which is empowered or maximized. Empower Spell and Maximize Spell WOULD work for Flaming Arrow.
Magical Knack will boost Mage Armor to 3 hours of duration at 3rd level. To get 6 requires Extend Spell.
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How can I be Qinggong if I'm already the Zen Archer archetype?
NI just want to be not a one-trick pony and only be good at ranged and be useless in melee. If I have Mage Armor up, I can still use my fists if need be.You are missing the point, After 3rd level, Zen Archers use their bow for Melee as well as Ranged. You do not need mage armor to boost your AC with a wisdom that high, Barkskin from Qinggong is all you will need. Unlike any punchy monk, you can also use your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor instead of an amulet of mighty fists.
A single level of Sorc/Wiz isn't giving you more options if all you are using it for is Mage Armor and gravity bow, it's taking away from your monk and zen abilites.
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How can I be Qinggong if I'm already the Zen Archer archetype?
NI just want to be not a one-trick pony and only be good at ranged and be useless in melee. If I have Mage Armor up, I can still use my fists if need be.You are missing the point, After 3rd level, Zen Archers use their bow for Melee as well as Ranged. You do not need mage armor to boost your AC with a wisdom that high, Barkskin from Qinggong is all you will need. Unlike any punchy monk, you can also use your neck slot for an amulet of natural armor instead of an amulet of mighty fists.
A single level of Sorc/Wiz isn't giving you more options if all you are using it for is Mage Armor and gravity bow, it's taking away from your monk and zen abilites.
Quinggong is compatible with all other archetypes except martial artist. See this FAQ.
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So this means I can take BOTH the Qinggong and Zen Archer archetypes at the SAME time? According the FAQ, that does seem how I interpret it. I'm a little confused (even after reading the FAQ) on how the abilities of one archetype overlays the other. But, I guess it means I can possibly avoid going down the arcane path. I'll have to figure that out.
I don't see how having Gravity Bow casting ability interferes with the class unless you're referring to the fact that he's nerfed by 1 level to take the arcane class to begin with.
Also, do I gain ALL of the Qinggong's spell abilities at each level? Does Barkskin scale; so at 7th level, it gives +3 and for 70 minutes?
Yes, you have the right of it.
In general, you can mix in additional archetypes anytime that two archetypes don't alter the same ability. So if I have a Rogue, I can use an archetype that alters trapfinding and 2 other things, and an archetype that alters evasion and 1 other thing, so long as the 'other things' are never the same ability and/or class feature.
The Qinggong archetype is rather unique in that it allows you to decide what you want to alter. This effectively means that you can add whatever archetype you want (like Zen Archer) so long as you don't use Qinggon to alter the feature that the other archetype (like Zen Archer) is altering.
Gravity bow really isn't that much of a boost. Yes, it allows you to roll a bigger dice (possibly 2d6), but the average damage from this works out to a 1-3 point increase. You'd be losing more than you gain.
Qinggong abilities scale by your level, so scorching ray will eventually gain a 2nd and (seeker level) 3rd ray. Your monk level is your caster level, so barkskin is longer, scorching ray gains more rays, etc.
You do not gain all of the abilities. You can opt to swap out one of the listed 'swap these out' abilities for one of the abilities at the appropriate level (or lower). For example, gaseous form is a 6th level ki power. You can trade out a 6th or 7th level ability for it. Alternately, you could trade the 6th or 7th level ability for true strike (a 4th level ki power).
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I don't see how having Gravity Bow casting ability interferes with the class unless you're referring to the fact that he's nerfed by 1 level to take the arcane class to begin with.
As I said before Gravity Bow is really not as good as it looks. It changes your damage dice from 1d8 to 2d6 or an average of 2.5 damage per hit. It takes a round of not attacking to cast the spell. Unless the fight is going to last the full 10 rounds of Gravity Bows duration, you gain more damage by simply attacking the first round than casting gravity bow. The only short duration buff spell that is worth it for archers imo is Aspect of the Falcon for the +1 to hit and 19-20 crit range, and even that is only needed when you are fighting up level bosses and you need all the help you can get hitting.
So this means I can take BOTH the Qinggong and Zen Archer archetypes at the SAME time? According the FAQ, that does seem how I interpret it. I'm a little confused (even after reading the FAQ) on how the abilities of one archetype overlays the other. But, I guess it means I can possibly avoid going down the arcane path. I'll have to figure that out.
Also, do I gain ALL of the Qinggong's spell abilities at each level? Does Barkskin scale; so at 7th level, it gives +3 and for 70 minutes?
Yes, you can take Qinggong and Zen Archer together. You cannot replace any ability that Zen Archer already replaced. That leaves slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), and wholeness of body (7th) free to be replaced.
Typically you would exchange slow fall for barkskin at 4th level. All Ki Powers that replicate spell effects are treated as SLAs with a caster level equal to your monk level.
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I think you're putting too much emphasis on Gravity Bow. I have a Ranger 8/Magus 1/Arcane Archer 4 in PFS and while GB was decent if you had time to buff prior to a fight, it's not worth it to cast after initiative is rolled. The extra attack(s) you are sacrificing to cast it aren't worth the slight bump to damage. Especially since a lot of encounters only last a few rounds with a dedicated archer in the group.
AC also isn't a big issue because you shouldn't be getting hit. Now, I was Dex based and bought celestial armor but I rarely got hit. I think at level 13 he only has a 26 AC or so (which isn't going to stop much). Just make sure you have decent saves and a way to fly past level 5.
I can't comment on monk specific stuff though as I have never played one.
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Okay, now that I'm committing myself down the Quingong/Zen Archer build, I have another question.
Is this guy a one-trick pony (great a ranged fighting and nothing else)? He doesn't heal, he doesn't cast spells, he isn't built for melee, he's not highly skilled for stealth, trap-finding, etc.
I think it's easy to build him into a corner and where he could be completely useless in some scenarios.
Thoughts?
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He is still a monk. You have Monk Speed, you can put skill points into Stealth if you want to, You still have unarmed damage which will suffice until level 3, at which point you can shoot in melee while threatened with no penalty and without provoking AoOs.
His perception is going to be sky-high, and that is the most important skill in the game as it is.
If you are concerned about skill ranks, consider spending some feats on skill focus. You have more bonus archery feats than a fighter, so you can afford to spend some general feats on non-archery things.
Well I wouldn't dump it below 10, but you could justify not putting more than 12 in it either. Once you can replace dex with wis as your attack stat, dex only matters for initiative/reflex/AC.
It depends on how much high initiatives and AC matter to you.
However, zen archers at 9th level get a pseudo- snap shot ability, out to 5' with their bow. To spend 2 feats to overlap this and to make it 15', just in case your in melee to do the AoO doesn't seem worth it.
I'm building basically the same character now. If you're not married to the idea of being a dwarf, I'd look at Aasimar. It's kind of a no-brainer in my opinion.
I've been flirting with one level of Empyreal Sorcerer as well, though I haven't taken it yet. IMHO, it makes the most sense for a compatible arcane caster. You'll have two spells known so one can be Gravity Bow and the other Mage Armor. However, being that our party was almost wiped out by a simple swarm of metal eating beetles last week, I'd say that you could do well with one area effect spell up your sleeve as a back up. The Magical Knack trait would help out your spell duration with +2 to caster level. Go tattooed and get a familiar as well.
If you're allowed to take third party, there is a class called Serene Barbarian. Is subs out Rage for Serenity which gives you +2 to DEX and WIS instead of STR and CON. For a monk, this means +4 to AC while in Serenity. It also adds +2 to all saves. The trade of is that for you it's only +2 to hit and not damage as it is with Rage. It's flavored more with a non-chaotic restriction rather than a non-lawful one, but it's not written up that way. If you're DM has a problem with it, you could take the Enlightened Warrior (Aasimar) trait. It lets you take Monk levels with a Neutral alignment.
Also, I agree with not dumping DEX. You'll really need it for the first two levels anyway. I'd not have a DEX less than 14 since it effects your AC, initiative, reflex saves and a skills. Plus, there are a number of feats that require at least a 13.
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I'd have to swap out my CON for DEX to get it to 14. The ONLY feat that I would miss by not having a Dex of 13 is Deadly Aim. I can do without the rest (Dodge is accessible regardless to him luckily).
But, on awesome feat is Iron Hide which would give me +1 Natural Armor bonus if I keep my CON at 13+!
Yeah, but not having deadly aim is a big deal.
Then again, the nice thing about this build is that you can try it out this way and then buy a +2 dex belt if you decide that you need a bit more punch in your damage rolls.
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Hmmmm.....I'm liking the thought of adding one level of Empyreal Sorcerer a bit more now. Having Mage Armor and the option to use Gravity Bow seems very attractive (esp. if he can buff before the battle). Plus he can do a teeny bit of special ray damage and healing. And, the world of arcane scrolls open up.
But, I'm still mulling it over. The past posting is correct, that I could nerf myself in combat by losing a round and only gain 2.5 dmg hit on average.
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Okay, now that I'm committing myself down the Quingong/Zen Archer build, I have another question.
Is this guy a one-trick pony (great a ranged fighting and nothing else)? He doesn't heal, he doesn't cast spells, he isn't built for melee, he's not highly skilled for stealth, trap-finding, etc.
I think it's easy to build him into a corner and where he could be completely useless in some scenarios.
Thoughts?
He's supposed to have a whole party of adventurers with him who can make up for his weaknesses. In exchange, he shoots 900 arrows per day. So healing, spellcasting, etc etc is fpr someone else to have fun with.
Skills, he's okay. You can take Wisdom in the Flesh and use your WIS instead of dex on one skill. I chose Disable Device. I also took Skill Focus: Intimidate (he became a vigilante) :p I have a decent stealth, sense motive, amazing perception and amazing acrobatics.
So while my Zen Archer can't do everything, he still has some out of combat utility as an infiltrator.
The points raised about DEX/WIS just feed in to my sentiment that Zen Archer may be better off IGNORING that they eventually get WIS to Ranged, and focusing on DEX as primary attack stat (investing in WIS 'normally', probably below STR's priority).
To fully leverage the main benefit of WIS to Ranged, i.e. reducing MAD, you need to dump DEX and use STR based melee for early levels (without benefit of melee Feats, unless you want to gimp your Ranged Feat progression). I do think that a STR/WIS build going for STR-based melee for early levels (maybe spending early Feats on things neutral to Ranged/Melee, like Toughness) IS (barely) viable to play (probably using a Longspear), but it goes against what most people will want to be doing with their Zen Archer character.
Putting SOME points into DEX but more into WIS (and STR, CON) still results in very sub-par attack bonuses at lowest levels (the swingiest levels) yet is lowering the benefits of reduced MAD for WIS to Ranged, you will be reducing your attack bonus and/or penalizing other stats, including STR (relevant to ranged damage).
If you don't have to worry about low levels, i.e. you're starting PCs at high level or it is for a 4th level+ NPC, then the WIS to Ranged is very nice with no down-side, but for from-Level-1 characters, it just feels unrealistic, and you're better off ignoring it to build around DEX. Even then it has some benefit in that, assuming you are boosting WIS moderately, you can use WIS to Ranged as a BACKUP in cases where you suffer alot of DEX damage.
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Imbicatus, I sent you a PM regarding Qinggong. I'm going for that build. I'm concerned about legality though. Are there Qinggong or Zen Archer abilities now that I have to juggle between?
Replied, but I'll sum up here:
The FAQ I linked is official, they can be combined. Hero Lab is good, but it has some bugs, and Qinggong is a pain to code for because it changes everything or not as you choose. It is legal.
It does stack, you just cannot replace an ability from the core monk class that Zen Archer already replaced. The thing to remember is that Zen Archer is always the primary archetype.
Look at the core monk, and when you level up look at what abilities monk gives you, and look at that level of Zen Archer and see if Zen Archer replaces it. If Zen Archer does replace it, then you cannot exchange that ability for a Qinnggong power. If it does not, then it is open to be replaced if you choose.
For example, you are a 3rd level Monk and you level up. A core monk would gain Ki pool (magic) and slow fall 20 ft at this level. Looking at Zen Archer 4, you can see that it only modifies Ki Pool to give you additional Ki uses, and it does not replace slow fall. Looking at Ki power, you can choose to replace slow fall with any of the level 4 Ki Powers, but you are not required to.
Now let's look at level 11. A core monk would gain Diamond Body, but the Zen Archer replaces it with Trick Shot. This mean you cannot add a ki power at this level because Zen Archer already did.
To make it easy, the powers that can be replaced are slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). Those are core monk abilities that are not modified or replaced by Zen Archer. If you choose replace one of those powers at the level you gain it, you can take any replacement power of your level or lower.
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Pardon my ignorance on this as this is my first PFS Monk. But, what does this statement mean: "This mean you cannot add a ki power at this level because Zen Archer already did."?
What ki power am I not allowed to use from Qinggong since I would use Trick Shot?
Sorry if I'm being dense. I guess what I'm wondering is that the Qinggong archetype lists a bunch of cool ki powers at all different levels that are gained. But at 11th level when Trick Shot is gained (and replaces Diamond Body), there is nothing noted for Qinggong at 11th level (hence why I'm a little confused).
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Read the description of Ki Power
Ki Power
A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
At 11th level a monk gains Diamond Body. This can be replaced by a Ki Power. Since there are no level 11 Ki Powers, you can replace it with any of the level 10 or lower powers listed. However, Zen Archer already replaced Diamond Body, so it cannot be replaced again.
Imbicatus, I sent you a PM regarding Qinggong. I'm going for that build. I'm concerned about legality though. Are there Qinggong or Zen Archer abilities now that I have to juggle between?
Here's a link that will make you feel better about it:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qnl
I'd swap out Slow fall for Barkskin asap.
And possibly High jump or wholeness of body for Ki stand, unless you plan to grab the Monkey style feat.
Later on Ki leech is a must-have. Gaseous form might be a good "get out of trouble" card.
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Thanks guys. I'm chuckling as I'm reading the FAQ because my head is about to explode. I'll have to get my head wrapped around this when I have some time to really sit down and read all of the sets of abilities carefully. I think I'll get it. But I do feel comfortable from the PFS legal standpoint. I just want to make sure I don't end up illegally trying to take on overlapping abilities.
If you're talking about PFS, I'd recommend taking a dip into Ranger instead of any arcane caster. The ranger spell list includes Gravity Bow, Aspect of the Falcon, Residual Tracking, Deadeye's Lore...all sorts of good stuff for archers. Each of these as a wand costs only 2 prestige points, and you can cast them with a level 1 dip as long as you don't take an archetype that doesn't trade out the spellcasting ability.
If you take Freebooter archetype, take a move action to bane a target, then give your allies +1 attack and damage (untyped) until it drops. New move action, new target, repeat until combat is over.
If you take an archetype with a level 1 animal companion, get Pheremone arrows (from Elves of Golarion) to give the critter +2 attack and damage against your target for one hour.
You also get martial weapon familiarity, full BAB, and a crapload of skill points.
I can scout, tank, or DPS, and really the only necessary stuff I can't do is some of the social things -- and even there I can often help a little.
If you would like to change that, you could take a level of Inquisitor with either the Infiltrator archetype or the Conversion Inquisition or both. They both add your WIS to social skills and Inquisitor has some handy benefits. You may want to take two levels though if anything.