gh0+1's page

I've not seen it so much here, but there was a subset of people on the old WotC boards that seemed to think that, if you designed a character with several classes and / or PrC's you automatically couldn't roleplay it, whereas a true roleplayer only would play something like a single-classed fighter.

Now, unlike real life, a point-buy system makes a person compromise when building a character. You can actually have a profession for which you're not only unsuited but a liability to yourself and your teammates...if you don't follow basic guidelines to make a competent character. There are actually two main ways to err -- the "role-player" who wants to build against type so makes choices at odds with the character's ability to pull his weight in the team, and the hyper-specialist who's great at one facet of the game and can't do anything else so gets bored at all times except when they're either creating a red mist of opponents or diplomacizing to make everyone an ally or know all there is to know about xyz...

Personally, I've had worse experiences with drama queens (whether min-maxed or not) than any other type of character...and really the best thing to do is run the game the way you like and if you think a player is a problem, communicate.

I tend to design for coolness above all else, then survivability, then power.

Also, it's important in something like Society play to get along with your party mates and play tactically.

My first character in PFS is a Zen Archer -- I built it as a simple point & shoot character in order to familiarize myself with a lot of the little changes from 3.0 / 3.5 and not have to keep track of too much stuff. If I had it to do over, I'd do things a little differently, but I didn't make any mistakes.

Here is my basic design:

Garuda-Blooded Aasimar Zen Archer / Quinggong Monk
AL: LN Faction: Taldan

S 14 (5)
D 16 (5)
C 14 (5)
I 12 (2)
W 17 (7) 18 19 20
C 7 (-4)

My original design was a dwarf before I realized Aasimar / Tiefling was allowed (I really like planetouched -- played Planescape back in the day, good times), and I didn't realize you could play alternate Tiefling lineages without an extra feat.

Worked out OK though because as an Aasimar it's two feats in order to learn to fly which I'd be doing right now if there were more high-level games around here (been stuck at 9 on this character for a while).
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Now, it's not as bleeding-edge as some, but it's a solid build. I've got an extremely high AC, a fair number of skill points to play around with, and lots of hit points as well. I swapped out slow fall, high jump, and wholeness of body as the last is weak and the first two are not only relatively weak but also become redundant at 10 (which barkskin won't unless I'm always playing with a Druid at the table).

There are a couple things I'd do differently on this guy but on the whole I'm satisfied. I nearly died once from a lucky crit and when I got swallowed whole, and I've been to negatives a few times but nothing except those two has ever almost killed me. I can scout, tank, or DPS, and really the only necessary stuff I can't do is some of the social things -- and even there I can often help a little.

In my experience, the expense of that last level of point-buy stat is rarely worth it. It's a difference of just one to hit, and if you're playing to 20 you only get 5 stat bumps anyway so you'll end up at a round number. The other thing it does is gives ki, which you don't usually run out of if you manage it right, and a round to-hit four levels earlier than you'd otherwise get it.

For instance, if you took one point off your Wis, you could make the first two levels much less painful by adding two to BOTH your Dex and your Con, which improves your AC, CMB, initiative, Ref save, Fort save, and hit points.

Empyreal Sorc lets you use Wis, or you'd have to clear some points to Int.

One other way you might do it, though, is to simply take a trait to get Use Magic Device and then collect wands / scrolls etc for spells you think you need. It's not the best of all possible worlds for you because your Cha isn't the highest and you'll probably want to max it as much as you can, but it's one way to get a lot of stuff you want.

But, if it's a home game and not society, you could simply rely on a party caster to do the stuff you think you want and just focus on specializing.

Just wondering how it works...

It says it gives you a companion at character level -3 but that it stacks with whatever other class gives it to you if you take it later.

However, if we have ally = CL - 3 and then add levels of a class giving a companion, there are really two interpretations.

1) ally = (class levels not giving AC -3) + (class level of class giving a companion)

2) ally = (total character level - 3) + (levels of class giving you AC)
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Both are reasonable interpretations, but the second lets you stack more.

Sample character:

Fighter 2 / Paladin 4 with Nature Soul and Animal Ally feats. Not a problem, the companion is level 3. However, at the next level, the player chooses a mount. The character level is 7, and would have a horse, camel, etc at level 5, but you stack it with the other one you already had and it's now level 8 OR level 9 depending on which interpretation is used. This gets worse as you keep leveling in Paladin, leading to a pet that either stays one level above player level, or two, then three, then four, then five etc levels above player level.

I'm leaning toward the first interpretation, but I think I'd be OK with the second as well...

It's a grey area that works by RAW with the FAQ...

I doubt I'll try it in a PFS game because it's obviously an exploit (I didn't do any of the RAW Nature Oracle / superpet tricks either, though I could have I suppose).
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If the FAQ says what it says, then what generic Aasimar scions of humanity can do is cast an SLA counted as a level 3 arcane spell.

The human FCA (which Aasimar scion of humanity has access to): Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.

Therefore, the Aasimar SoH sorcerer is treated as being able to cast an arcane spell level 3, and RAW can use the FCA to add spells known at one level lower than what he can cast -- which, by FAQ, is treated as 3-1, giving him access to levels 2, 1, and 0 spells as bonus spells through the human FCA.
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Let's compare that to something like the Mystic Theurge, which relies on being able to cast 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells. A Tiefling casts Darkness as an SLA, which from FAQ, is counted as a 2nd level arcane spell to qualify for MT at Sorc 1 / Cleric 3.

The earliest you could have taken MT without tricks like this is 2 levels higher with wizard -- so you saved yourself 2 levels and gave yourself better synergy with your casting stat (assuming you went Empyreal sorc / cleric for the basic design).
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Do you see how the exploits compare? Effectively you have more flexibility as a sorc using my trick, and you have more viability as an MT using the standard trick.

If you disallow one, you should logically disallow the other...and if you don't you should at least spell something like this out.

Thank you.

Unfortunately that argument would also disallow the early-entry MT and other loopholes that are specifically allowed.

The FAQ dated 6/6/13:

"Spell-like abilities, casting, and prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes."

Now, what is the Human Favored Class ability of a sorcerer but a "...prerequisite or requirement..." that he can know an extra spell at least one level lower than the highest level spell he can cast?

Therefore, by RAW, an Aasimar Scion of Humanity can choose to know extra spells of 2, 1, or 0 level when leveling up to 7.
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While this SOUNDS wrong and I'd be OK with a GM disallowing it in his home game (and PFS disallowing that trick), when you think about it you're only getting a boost at the lower levels when casters are at their weakest anyway...and not a whole lot of people are going to go for 7 extra level 2 spells known.

I'd like to know if PFS would disallow both this and the early-entry tricks...it seems the most simple and rational way to go...

True. More a thought experiment than anything else really.

I'm fond of offbeat designs and combos that actually work in gameplay or whatever else I do though.

I design more for coolness than power generally but sometimes those two qualities intersect.

Nearly all the prestige classes carried over from 3.5 were nerfed or simply made less good in comparison to what a straight class with or sometimes without archetypes could do.

A couple were buffed into near-usefulness, and some new ones may be worth taking, but on the whole it's not the way to power it was in 3.5.

Scion of humanity does not unlock the favor class options. So it is not a moot point either way

The recent errata didn't raise that point...I read the requisite post and all it did was limit feats.

RAW, it's legal, and it's not specifically disallowed in PFS (nor should it be, IMO).

Here's a copy of the relevant text:

An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids.

If you count as human for any effect related to race, you count as human for the favored class ability, too.

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The only questions I have are related to what, exactly, spell-like abilities let you qualify for. It is my personal feeling that SLA's shouldn't qualify you for anything that would specifically require a certain spellcasting ability, but others have ruled that you specifically CAN do so (for purposes of Mystic Theurge etc), so I was raising that little point.

gh0+1 wrote:

Sorry about going on in this thread instead of doing a new one, but does that mean that building an Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerer and taking level two bonus spells at levels 2, 3, and 4 with the human's favored class bonus is legal in PFS?

Because that sounds pretty cheesy and I had thought it wasn't allowed.

It is not allowed.

Scion of humanity lets you take human only feats and changes what spells can effect you.

Also the favor class for sorc give you one less than you can cast. SO a level 2 can take a level 0 spell, level 3 a level 1, level 4 a level 1.

Yes, but Daylight is a 3rd level spell. So if having a 3rd level SLA counts for being able to "cast" a 3rd level spell (Daylight) at 1st level, that means you can add a 2nd level spell known with your human favored class ability when you hit 2, and then again when you hit 3, 4, and 5.

I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out...

Sorry about going on in this thread instead of doing a new one, but does that mean that building an Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerer and taking level two bonus spells at levels 2, 3, and 4 with the human's favored class bonus is legal in PFS?

Because that sounds pretty cheesy and I had thought it wasn't allowed.

rake rule is general, which is trumped by the specific rule of pounce.

Posted before I saw your reply. Will gladly play (or judge if they succeed in encouraging me to) that way in future...was just confused by possible conflict implicit in language / definition...

English...
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A monster with the rake ability -- in other words, every single critter that can USE rake

MUST -- is required by physical / other laws

begin its turn already grappling -- does this need explanation?

in order to USE its rake...
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This possibly contradicts the rules of the "pounce" ability, as I stated -- rake is listed in there as a possible attack...

The only way there is no contradiction is if "rake" doesn't work the way it is described in the rules for "rake".

Rake says it can "...use only against a grappled foe..." and then "...must begin its turn already grappling..."
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Do you understand why clarification would be in order?

Exactly what is unclear about the word "must" in the sentence I bolded?

"A monster with the rake ability MUST begin its turn already grappling in order to use its rake..."

Looking at that without the pounce description certainly IMPLIES "only".

See what I mean about a clarification being nice?

Brings up an interesting rules question, no? Pounce says you can rake as a full-attack, and Rake says you can only use it while grappling...

David Foley wrote:

Lormyr wrote:

In order for the tiger to gain it's rake attacks, it must begin it's turn already grappling. Thus on the charge/pounce, it is "only" the 2 claws and bite with the grab attempts.

but the Tiger has the Pounce ability, which states

"Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

When the tiger pounces, it gets the rake attacks. It does not need to succeed in a grab.

There are two times a big cat (lions get rake too) gets to use the rake: when it is pouncing, and when it starts a full attack already in a grapple.

Yes, five attacks is a lot.

As others have pointed out, there are a few controls on this: using handle animal correctly means that the PC is spending actions on the animal, and might not be able to do other things, like run away from danger, animals have pretty low will saves and can be compromised by spells, and opponents can use handle animal on the beast until it gets the exclusive trick.

Rake (Ex)

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two free claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature’s description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.

(I bolded the text)

Nefreet wrote:

thaX wrote:

Oh, and the Aasimar can take Racial Heritage if he has Scion of Humanity. That brings up so many wonderful combinations...

Like what?

Lots of things!

...outside of PFS.

Mostly you don't have enough feats even to take advantage of that even outside PFS, though.

The cool stuff takes feats and the more powerful classes (casters mostly) tend to be feat-starved, you see. Depends on the people you're running with, of course.
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Of course, with that caveat, things like being a small-sized Aasimar (banned in PFS) with scion of humanity and RH:Orc who is a Scarred Witch Doctor (banned in PFS) or Synthesist Summoner (banned in PFS) or whatever other class / archetype you prefer, and riding a celestial Pteranadon (Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Beast Rider (barred from non half-orcs in PFS), Celestial Servant) is kind of fun.

Alignment in this game kind of breaks down anyway if you take it too seriously, as do things like the Paladin's code of conduct (no lying? really???)

But that's another can of worms that's been opened enough times in the past...
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The bigger question to ask is why no evil alignments...and it's not that there are children in lots of these games and we need to set an example (being able to tell reality from fantasy is one reason one plays these games after all and if you can't you shouldn't).

The best reason is that if you allow evil alignments you can get certain types of characters and players...which I feel would be better described as "immature". Torture (or S&M) "just because", blood and gore "just because", but mostly, stabbing party members in the back...

In a home game it'd be fun to run an evil campaign every so often (depending on taste here) but in something like society it's more problematic.

Right. I guess it's all about how you define what becomes a "class spell" and for what reason. Not to mention "casting" (spell-like abilities qualify now for some things and not others for non-concrete reasons). For instance: theoretically, with a cheesy interpretation, a scion of humanity Aasimar could "cast" 3rd level divine / arcane spell right out of the box (daylight) and therefore load up on 2nd level spell access on Sorcerer or Oracle with the human's favored class bonus.

It's not that big a deal to me really -- the Razmiran template is kind of weird though in that it gives you spells you can't cast yet in exchange for spells you could...to make more sense it should have replaced spells at level 5 and 7 instead but RAW is RAW in that regard.

I'll miss entangle a bit, but more for character feel than much else as it's kind of a situational-use spell; I actually miss access to handle animal as a class skill more than anything else so far with that char.

I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.

Is there an official ruling anywhere?

I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I couldn't find anything definite on this question.
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I have a character with the Sylvan Wildblood and Razmiran Priest Archetypes (they can be taken together because they don't replace the same things of a base sorcerer.

I hit 3rd level with my character, and then I get Aid instead of Entangle (I would have gotten Entangle from Sylvan as a subset of Fey). I can't cast Aid at all until I go up another level and it's a pretty underwhelming spell anyway.

When I hit 4th level, I want to take the human Favored Class bonus to add a 1st level spell to my list of spells known (it's a level below the highest I can cast, which is 2).

Can I pick Entangle for my spell known? It's normally a Druid spell but I would have gotten it as a bonus for 3rd level so I'd argue it should be allowed me.

Since you can't get past 12 in PFS, I was wondering about classes giving you a companion that you might want to have at 5 or 6 and then either multiclass or prestige out of.

Especially I was wondering how that would work with something like a Paladin, whose mount changes its type to magical beast at 11. If I'm only a level 6 paladin but have both of the feats, does it still become a magical beast assuming I'm level 11 or 12?
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Also, in PFS, assuming I want to design a character-type like this, I am locked into Half-Orc race because all the ways to qualify for the feat Beast Rider as something else (half-elf, human, aasimar with scion of humanity, any other race with orc bloodline sorcerer) are disallowed, correct?

Thanks.