I wouldn't include the Cavalier in the list of underpowered classes. Possibly the best single target dpr in the game, improved action economy thanks to a mount doing the moving for them, decent party buffs, and the ability to increase the total action economy of the party with things like immediate action charges and ranged attacks, plus 4+Int skills and a reason to invest in Charisma put them a cut above the Fighter, Rogue and Monk.
I have to agree with this, to an extent. The Cavalier is a very solid class in base mechanics. The problem the cavalier runs into is that outside of one or two archetypes it's tied very heavily into mounted combat, which quickly runs afoul of terrain restrictions in a lot of games. Classic dungeon-delving is not friendly to mounted combat—really, any combat encounter that's not in a reasonably open area hurts it. Given Pathfinder's fondness for claustrophobic combat ranges...
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Spell sunder a demiplane for the win.
I am waiting for a response to this. I am willing to fight your claim
I already posted a build of a fighter that laughs at anything your caster can dish out.
If you are in cone of exhaustion range, you are probably dead.
You have to link to it!
2 |Bravery, Power Attack
3 |Armor training, Cleave
4 |Great Cleave
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy), Blind-Fight
6 |Bravery, Lunge
7 |Armor training, Iron Will
8 |Quick Draw
9 |Weapon training(Thrown), Step Up
10|Bravery, Vital Strike
11|Armor training, Improved Vital Strike
12|Strike Back
13|Weapon training(Bows), Improved Iron Will
14|Bravery, Stand Still
15|Armor training, Deadly Aim
16|Greater Vital Strike
17|Weapon training(Close), Disruptive
18|Bravery, Spellbreaker
19|Armor mastery, Great Fortitude
20|weapon mastery(GS), Improved Critical(GS)
Guardian(Absorb Blow)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Toughness, Vital Strike, Quickdraw, Spellbreaker
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Armored Might, Adamantine Mind, Ever Ready, Parry Spell, Mythic Resolve, Shrug it off, Borrow Elements, Mythic Sustenance, Sleepless
So it loses to Limited Wish (or wish/Miracle) duplicating Geas/Quest cast by a neutral caster. I admit I am unfamiliar with Mythic stuff, but a cursory glance of the abilities suggest they will do little to help (though I am prepared to be wrong... on the internet and everything).
Really, no offense intended... but that looks trivially easy to beat for a well played full caster.
I don't agree with your premise marthkus. A level capped caster does not have to use spells with saves.
So it loses to Limited Wish (or wish/Miracle) duplicating Geas/Quest cast by a neutral caster. I admit I am unfamiliar with Mythic stuff, but a cursory glance of the abilities suggest they will do little to help (though I am prepared to be wrong... on the internet and everything).
Really, no offense intended... but that looks trivially easy to beat for a well played full caster.
Oops. Well you got me there. As long as the caster is farther away than 30ft this will work.
Stupid 10 minute casting time spells as a standard action.
and so, once again, the spellcaster walks away victorious.... :/
I don't see how you deal with wish geas, then I plane shift away.
Also you don't have mythic improved initiative so you lose to diviners
Not really. It's not an initiative race.
Although wish/miracle/limited-wish geas totally wins.
Well unless I have that one ion stone... But that is more gear optimization.
and so, once again, the spellcaster walks away victorious.... :/
The only reason I'm mildly OK with it is that is reminds me of Code Geas.
Not sure why it have to be measured aginst broken caster thing, you know, the things that are like a very awful part of the game.
The statement that the standard rage powers are massively umbalanced againt the otehr barbarian options remains.
Diviners always take 20 on initiative.
You can't deal with maze and forcecage either
Spell sunder.
Diviners always take 20 on initiative.
You can't deal with maze and forcecage either
Forcecage has a DC now. So he's got that covered.
Maz is a delaying tactic. Not a win.
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I don't see how Barbarians are OP or unbalanced.
I mean I used to think so too... there were Barbarians ruling the combats in my local PFS for a while.
That is until I see builds like 1) any archer build, 2) gunslingers, 3) Druids/multi-classes that can throw out 6 natural attacks, 4) a Fighter that uses only the CRB and APG to criti his way to out-DPR barbarians, 5) mutli-class builds and paladins with a ton of saves, 6) paladins that can heal from 1hp to full hp as a swift action, 7) grapplers that can grapple a barbarian and keep the Barb down forever ...etc...
Seriously, barbrians are oh so good, until... they start facing stuff they can't hit (fog, fly, invis). Or start taking so much damage, they have to withdraw, even as the Paladin or Battle Cleric tank on.
Not to mention Barbs are so in need of support. If they can't down a enemy in a couple of turns, they are usually screaming at the Cleric for heals.
An archer flying can shoot the crap out of a Barb. And lets not even think about barb DR. Cluster shot got that covered.
@Marthkus, I'm getting the sense that someone played a barb and took all the glory in some games and that gave you a bad impression of the class.
Maze then forcecage the spot where you were mazed. It helpfully ignores the dc part!
Still a delaying tactic not a win. 1 round/level is not all that long.
@Marthkus, I'm getting the sense that someone played a barb and took all the glory in some games and that gave you a bad impression of the class.
I was thinking of "fixes" I could give the fighter, but I ran into the problem of how overpowering the barbars options are, that anything I wrote for the fighter that could compete was too OP, considering that barbars do not "have" to pick those options.
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@Marthkus, I'm getting the sense that someone played a barb and took all the glory in some games and that gave you a bad impression of the class.I was thinking of "fixes" I could give the fighter, but I ran into the problem of how overpowering the barbars options are, that anything I wrote for the fighter that could compete was too OP, considering that barbars do not "have" to pick those options.
In a straight up fight, I have seen a CRB+APG only Fighter took on an Optimized reach Barb (With superstition and other rage pounce powers) and won.
The fighter was just a pure, even old-fashion, crit build. (Not sure if the fighter did a 1 lv dip into cleric...)I truly thought Barbs are OP for quite a while, but with more games played and ran, I realize that Barbs are just an OK class. They slightly more powerful at lower levels, but balances off later.
There are just many vastly more powerful classes and options out there. (And I don't mean the pure spellcasters. I mean other martial or low spell casting classes like paladins.)
@Marthkus, I'm getting the sense that someone played a barb and took all the glory in some games and that gave you a bad impression of the class.I was thinking of "fixes" I could give the fighter, but I ran into the problem of how overpowering the barbars options are, that anything I wrote for the fighter that could compete was too OP, considering that barbars do not "have" to pick those options.In a straight up fight, I have seen a CRB+APG only Fighter took on an Optimized reach Barb (With superstition and other rage pounce powers) and won.
The fighter was just a pure, even old-fashion, crit build. (Not sure if the fighter did a 1 lv dip into cleric...)I truly thought Barbs are OP for quite a while, but with more games played and ran, I realize that Barbs are just an OK class. They slightly more powerful at lower levels, but balances off later.
There are just many vastly more powerful classes and options out there. (And I don't mean the pure spellcasters. I mean other martial or low spell casting classes like paladins.)
No-one can match the fighter in trading full attacks. Unfortunately the game is so much more than that.
Barbarians aren't OP, but they sure are imbalanced.
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@Marthkus, I'm getting the sense that someone played a barb and took all the glory in some games and that gave you a bad impression of the class.I was thinking of "fixes" I could give the fighter, but I ran into the problem of how overpowering the barbars options are, that anything I wrote for the fighter that could compete was too OP, considering that barbars do not "have" to pick those options.In a straight up fight, I have seen a CRB+APG only Fighter took on an Optimized reach Barb (With superstition and other rage pounce powers) and won.
The fighter was just a pure, even old-fashion, crit build. (Not sure if the fighter did a 1 lv dip into cleric...)I truly thought Barbs are OP for quite a while, but with more games played and ran, I realize that Barbs are just an OK class. They slightly more powerful at lower levels, but balances off later.
There are just many vastly more powerful classes and options out there. (And I don't mean the pure spellcasters. I mean other martial or low spell casting classes like paladins.)No-one can match the fighter in trading full attacks. Unfortunately the game is so much more than that.
Barbarians aren't OP, but they sure are imbalanced.
I think to understand this better, we need a baseline to compare to.
Therefore, which class would in your opinion, be considered a balanced class?
(Just so that we can understand in what ways the barb is unbalanced, when compared to other classes that have a similar role.)
I think to understand this better, we need a baseline to compare to.
Therefore, which class would in your opinion, be considered a balanced class?
(Just so that we can understand in what ways the barb is unbalanced, when compared to other classes that have a similar role.)
Balanced. Hmmmmmm
That is a more difficult question. It is easy to point out imbalanced classes like Barbars and synthesist summoners. Too some extent the paladin infringes, but in a more manageable sense. Particular spell combos and spells are broken, but that is different than imbalanced, so all the full casters sans the witch would be balanced (slumber hex...).
Rogue and to a lesser extent fighters are imbalanced for different reasons.
The monk, although with many problems, is a balanced class at high levels. By that point it's AC is up there with a fighter's and it's other defenses are great. As consequence it suffers on the offensive side, unlike the barbar and the systhesist who just cannot be challenged without wrecking the rest of the part, while at the same time rivaling a fighter's DPR.
Bard is another example of balance.
The way druids choose between better at melee than a fighter or good at casting is a form of balance.
Rangers are fairly balanced.
Samurai are balanced.
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Where the barbar sticks out to me as a problem is how it just muscles through encounters with raw numbers. Most other classes have to put some thought into how they handle themselves.
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Lol, I saw monk on your list. The default monk is kinda balanced, but the monk archetypes are a different matter.
Zen Archers have high AC and Offense and range and teleport! :o.
Ok, back on topic. On the Barb being unbalanced to the rest of a party. (I'm avoiding Systh as that one really feel imba, mainly due to the fact it gets to fly non-stop AND pounce kill.)
Looking at your examples, I feel that the reason the Barb feels imbalanced, is due to how specialize it is.
The Barb is a specialized attacker and it is given choices that allow it to perform its role very well.
In many ways it can be compared to how powerful a slumber hex specialized witch is. Or a tetori monk when it comes to grappling.
Its this feeling that the Barb is like a one trick pony that is VERY good in that one trick, that is throwing you off and giving the impression that it is imbalanced.
Your examples, all are more "balanced" as they can perform a wider range of roles, and a wider range of weaknesses. Barbs have a very limited and easy to notice role (attack, whack, whack, enemy dies) and glaring weaknesses, no way to self-heal, low AC, bad vs range, can't deal with fly, invis, concealment easily, etc.
Don't allow how clear cut and simple the Barb is to mislead you to believe that it is imbalanced. The Barb is balanced with its own weaknesses and problems.
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Superstitious gives a +6 to saves human favored class bonus raises that to +12.
Beast totem gives pounce AND ac to make up for a lack of heavy armor, OR you can use reckless abandon to trade out that free AC for MORE to-hit.
With invulnerable Rager you can trade out some relatively useless anti-rogue defenses for crazy amount of DR /-.
I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that than just adding a +6-12 to all d20 rolls.
AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM OTHER BARBARIAN, AND BARBARIAN AM LAUGH AT TALKYMAN SAYING BARBARIAN AM TOO STRONG. BARBARIAN AM STRONG, AM STRONGEST, BUT ONLY AT SMASH.
BARBARIAN AM LOOK AT CASTIES, AM SEE CASTIES MAKE PORTAL-THINGIES AND PRETTY RINGS KILL BETTER THAN BARBARIAN! AM ALSO SEE CASTIES MAKE MORE BARBARIANS THAT GOOD LIKE BARBARIAN. AM MAKE BARBARIAN MAD TO SEE CASTIES MAKE BARBARIANS FOLLOW CASTIES ORDERS, SO BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL CASTIES!
AM THINK TALKYMAN NOT PLAY CASTIES THAT MAKE PORTAL-THINGIES. BARBARIAN AM NOT KNOW HOW MAKE PORTAL-THINGIES, AM ONLY KNOW SMASH.
AM ALSO THINK TALKYMAN AM ACTUALLY "TROLL," AND BARBARIAN AM SMASH "TROLL," LIKE BARBARIAN AM SMASH ALL CASTIES. BUT AM FORGIVE TALKYMAN, FOR TALKYMAN AM SCARED OF BARBARIAN WHEN BARBARIAN AM GO SMASH-TIME ON CASTIES.
Its this feeling that the Barb is like a one trick pony that is VERY good in that one trick, that is throwing you off and giving the impression that it is imbalanced.
Well I also feel like the Master Summoner is balanced* and he is a one trick pony.
*I believe the problems with the master summoner stem from the logistics of playing one.
Also, every full caster made the list of "balanced" because for this definition we made a difference between broken spell combos and unbalanced.
I also think a well built fighter can be balanced. You don't need pounce and a +14 moral bonus to all saves to beat APs. The fighter's defenses are a little weak, but a well built one under a GM who runs dominate person correctly (with concerns to actions against one's nature) is very effective in cramped dungeons.
But the fighter does have problems. I say they are about as far off the mark as the paladin is, just in inverse directions.
the master summoner is definitely a 1 trick pony, and that 1 trick, though a powerful trick, is merely 1 trick. flooding the battlefield with mooks. druids can do that trick too, as can conjurers and clerics, though not as well. unless the cleric is good aligned and has a highly specific feat.
Well I also feel like the Master Summoner is balanced* and he is a one trick pony.
*I believe the problems with the master summoner stem from the logistics of playing one.
Also, every full caster made the list of "balanced" because for this definition we made a difference between broken spell combos and unbalanced.
I also think a well built fighter can be balanced. You don't need pounce and a +14 moral bonus to all saves to beat APs. The fighter's defenses are a little weak, but a well built one under a GM who runs dominate person correctly (with concerns to actions against one's nature) is very effective in cramped dungeons.
But the fighter does have problems. I say they are about as far off the mark as the paladin is, just in inverse directions.
Imma disagree with ya here Marthkus. Most people who actually know what makes the Summoner strong isn't the Synthesis Summoner. The Synthesis is just a hilarious parody of how spellcasters totally trump martials in everything. It's clearly visible how it does so. Otherwise you have to crunch and system mastery your way up the Caster Martial disparity.
A Summoner is far more powerful maintaining it's shtick. Action Economy. The fact that a third level summoner can poop out 1d4+2 Celestial Hawks who can smite is just ridiculous.
A Master Summoner turns this up to eleven by getting minute per level summons. Which he then mops the floor with any encounter that he has any amount of preparation for, it simply decided whether he has 10 hawks out already or 20. Master Summoners completely obliterate the norms of encounter design. Heck, dungeon design too once Earth Elementals are available.
Calling a Master Summoner a one trick pony is like saying a swiss army knife has only one use. He's got psuedo-flight, blindsense, scent, earth glide, and numerous other special abilities at his beck and call and you call him a one trick pony?
Also hypocrisy. You discount the witch completely over an optimized choice(Slumber Hex) when character building but all casters are balanced because we're assuming they don't use the materials the game gave them?
IMO, The most balanced classes in the game currently are...
Bards
Alchemists
Inquisitors
Rangers, could actually use some more love.
Oracles minus Paragon Surge and Aasimar FCB bullpoop which should have never existed.
Cavaliers are a bit on the weak side. They definitely need some more non-mounted combat options.
Paladins
Barbarians are strong yes, but still get trivialized in the same way other martials do at high levels. Positioning, magic, and intelligent enemies simply keeping their distance.
The only full caster to make my list was the Oracle due to the cleric list just not being very fantastic for a spontaneous caster.
I don't have experience with a Witch but I hear they're fairly balanced excepting Slumber Hex.
Balanced here is different than OP. (which both are different than broken) Full casters get a pass because they have actual weaknesses and limits. They are not unstoppable killing machines that no GM can threaten without TPKing the group.
Yes a standard summoner is more powerful than a synthesist, but a synthesist is a no weakness monster with crazy AC, damage, and spells.
To me a character is no longer balanced when the GM has pull out shenanigans to challenge that player without creating such a threat that the rest of the party would die.
Master summoners are logistically hard to pull off. That is their limit. irresponsible players who spend 30min to an hour per turn may be very powerful but they are also a bore to play with. I've played master summoners before and managed to keep my turn down to a minute or less, but that also limited what I could do. Hurr durr summon the angel hoard may be cool, but if you can't handle it, your GM shouldn't let you waste everyone else's time.
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Balanced here is different than OP. (which both are different than broken) Full casters get a pass because they have actual weaknesses and limits. They are not unstoppable killing machines that no GM can threaten without TPKing the group.
Yes a standard summoner is more powerful than a synthesist, but a synthesist is a no weakness monster with crazy AC, damage, and spells.
To me a character is no longer balanced when the GM has pull out shenanigans to challenge that player without creating such a threat that the rest of the party would die.
Master summoners are logistically hard to pull off. That is their limit. irresponsible players who spend 30min to an hour per turn may be very powerful but they are also a bore to play with. I've played master summoners before and managed to keep my turn down to a minute or less, but that also limited what I could do. Hurr durr summon the angel hoard may be cool, but if you can't handle it, your GM shouldn't let you waste everyone else's time.
This is not how the term balanced is normally applied. If you wish to redefine terms be very explicit about it or people will misunderstand what you are saying. Good communication is about using the standard definition of words or being crystal clear how you're changing them.
Also, Barbarians are perfectly vulnerable to HP damage. No need to wreck encounter design or anything to stop them, just hit them a lot. They lack meaningful in-combat healing, and have DR...but not enough to actually stop high level attacks. Hell, it's almost meaningless against high-level archers due to Clustered Shots.
Now you can argue that they can out-damage opponents...and that's often (though by no means always) true, but that makes them tough, not game wrecking or unbeatable. Especially vs. archers, who can wreck them if well-built. Or things with better full-attack routines than they have (I'm looking at you, Dragon...)
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Balanced here is different than OP. (which both are different than broken) Full casters get a pass because they have actual weaknesses and limits. They are not unstoppable killing machines that no GM can threaten without TPKing the group.
Yes a standard summoner is more powerful than a synthesist, but a synthesist is a no weakness monster with crazy AC, damage, and spells.
To me a character is no longer balanced when the GM has pull out shenanigans to challenge that player without creating such a threat that the rest of the party would die.
Master summoners are logistically hard to pull off. That is their limit. irresponsible players who spend 30min to an hour per turn may be very powerful but they are also a bore to play with. I've played master summoners before and managed to keep my turn down to a minute or less, but that also limited what I could do. Hurr durr summon the angel hoard may be cool, but if you can't handle it, your GM shouldn't let you waste everyone else's time.
Synthesists have no weakness? How about AC or good ol reflex saves which can hurt D8 and D6 classes pretty badly? Heck a Synthesist who eats a full attack is going to be smarting. A night ambush here and there messes up the Synthesist REAL bad.
A Master Summoner most definitely forces the GM to change encounters.
Logistical difficulty =/= balance when it gives you a gross advantage over other classes. Especially when it comes to Action Economy.
Balance is a CR5 Alchemist is just as appropriate of a challenge as a CR5 Inquisitor. Which they are. Imbalance is when we know for certain that a CR10 Rogue is a completely different challenge level(Read as "Easy." than a CR10 Wizard. The trick is knowing what the difference means.
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Synthesists have no weakness? How about AC or good ol reflex saves which can hurt D8 and D6 classes pretty badly? Heck a Synthesist who eats a full attack is going to be smarting. A night ambush here and there messes up the Synthesist REAL bad.
A 5th level Synthesist has a +6 Reflex save plus items (so likely a +7 at that level)...that's not exactly low at that level, an AC of 20-24 again plus items (so likely 24-26, and he can add Mage Armor on top), and probably over 50 HP on average, which is on par with a raging Barbarian at that level.
The night ambush is a problem...unless they have Summon Eidolon. Which they do.
I'm not in agreement with Markthus about Barbarians, and Synthesists have weaknesses...but they are not weak in the ways you cite.
EDIT: Forgot the shield bonus and Mage Armor.
Synthesists have no weakness? How about AC or good ol reflex saves which can hurt D8 and D6 classes pretty badly? Heck a Synthesist who eats a full attack is going to be smarting. A night ambush here and there messes up the Synthesist REAL bad.A 5th level Synthesist has a +6 Reflex save plus items (so likely a +7 at that level)...that's not exactly low at that level, an AC of 18-22 again plus items (so likely 22-24), and probably over 50 HP on average, which is on par with a raging Barbarian at that level.
The night ambush is a problem...unless they have Summon Eidolon. Which they do.
I'm not in agreement with Markthus about Barbarians, and Synthesists have weaknesses...but they are not weak in the ways you cite.
And yet by choosing to front line, they have endangered their lives far more than any other Summoner.
And yet by choosing to front line, they have endangered their lives far more than any other Summoner.And given up an action economy advantage, yes. I said they had weaknesses...but low Reflex Save, AC and HP (which were the ones you listed) are definitively not among them.
So I was wrong about that. I already accepted that and moved on. I said yet not but.
I'll point out that healing your temp hp buffer is a bit odd. Rejuvenate Eidolon works but I haven't seen too many Summoners toting that around over other spells. Then theres the possibility of your eidolon getting dismissed while you're in combat. Somewhat difficult to disengage unless you'll take the risk of casting defensively.
Then theres all the nasty battlefield control that front liners have to deal with. Auras, Poison, Difficult Terrain and so forth.
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So I was wrong about that. I already accepted that and moved on. I said yet not but.
You could've said "Okay you're right, but..." and it would've been clear that was what you'd done...the way you did it was much less clear-cut that this had occurred. As in I legitimately couldn't tell whether you were moving on to a new topic or trying to continue the previous one in a 'moving the goalposts' sort of way.
I'm pleased that it was the former, and am happy to move on...but you were somewhat less than clear, which is why I replied as I did. Sorry about that.
I'll point out that healing your temp hp buffer is a bit odd. Rejuvenate Eidolon works but I haven't seen too many Summoners toting that around over other spells. Then theres the possibility of your eidolon getting dismissed while you're in combat. Somewhat difficult to disengage unless you'll take the risk of casting defensively.
There are ways around it, but it is an issue, yes.
Then theres all the nasty battlefield control that front liners have to deal with. Auras, Poison, Difficult Terrain and so forth.
This is indisputably true.
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Can we move on from Summoners, now? They're seriously Off-Topic.
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Superstitious gives a +6 to saves human favored class bonus raises that to +12.
Beast totem gives pounce AND ac to make up for a lack of heavy armor, OR you can use reckless abandon to trade out that free AC for MORE to-hit.
With invulnerable Rager you can trade out some relatively useless anti-rogue defenses for crazy amount of DR /-.
I know people like the barbar because of how it actually competes with classes that can cast spells, but surely there is a better way to do that than just adding a +6-12 to all d20 rolls.
1- Sounds more like Humans are broken than Barbarians. This I would agree with. Nerf Humans!
2- It is an entirely reasonable houserule to limit the Pounce to attacks made with your Beast Totem-granted natural weapons. I'm 99% sure that this was likely the original intent but just got ruled on "incorrectly."
(On the other hand, a better argument would be MORE classes need abilities like Pounce rather than stripping it from the Barb.)
3- DR 10/- over 20 levels is FAR from "crazy." Honestly, it should be the baseline Barb value and IR should bump it to 15 or 20.
Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.
I call shenanigans here.
I also challenge you to name a single "more interesting combat interaction" that a Fighter has.Because, to me, it looks like the only thing a Fighter can do is roll a die/swing a weapon over and over.
Even the fighter (although weaker) has more interesting combat interactions.I call shenanigans here.
I also challenge you to name a single "more interesting combat interaction" that a Fighter has.Because, to me, it looks like the only thing a Fighter can do is roll a die/swing a weapon over and over.
Mid combat a party member cast a buff spell on the fighter.
That alone gives the fighter innumerable more interactions and teamwork options than the superstitious barbar.
They actually have to play with tactics and thought, not just going "ROAR! ragelancepounce while being invulnerable to magic!" doing their own thing while the rest of the party does their own thing.