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As the title says what does everyone think of the new format for fiction in this Ap. Personally I much preferd the previous fiction. In the current story the fiction itself was fine but I did not care for the bit at the end and that it is also to possibly be used as an encounter map in the main Ap (Frankly it takes up space that could have been used for more story or art full body pictures of the main story cast etc and the map is not much use for an encounter map.
I liked it...something extra for my players is something I don't have to prep.
Art pictures are pretty much just for myself...and an extra single side of print isn't going to make or break the adventure for me.
I did like the pictures in the journal...added faces and such to my minds eye depiction of the story.
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I'd rather the fiction be removed entirely and additional maps and background information given. If I want fiction, I'll buy a book. (And trust me; I regularly DO buy books for my personal enjoyment.)
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I'd rather the fiction be removed entirely and additional maps and background information given. If I want fiction, I'll buy a book. (And trust me; I regularly DO buy books for my personal enjoyment.)
This kind of highlights my problem with the new set up. People who dont like the fiction still arent going to like it and it just puts me off the fiction a bit.
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I'd rather the fiction be removed entirely and additional maps and background information given. If I want fiction, I'll buy a book. (And trust me; I regularly DO buy books for my personal enjoyment.)This kind of highlights my problem with the new set up. People who dont like the fiction still arent going to like it and it just puts me off the fiction a bit.
Actually, I find this more useful then the old fiction, so I am kind of liking it. Surprisingly, I am looking forward to seeing what the fiction looks like in the next round.
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I can assure you that we will be watching this thread with great interest. :)
I'm in two minds about the fiction (I'd prefer more gaming content, but understand the reasons that's not going to happen and I'd rather fiction than nothing).
I havent got my hardcopy yet, so havent read it in depth - based on first impressions from the PDF though, I like the return to the look of the original few issues of Pathfinder (it was reminiscent of the Eando Cline journals, which I did enjoy, unlike later offerings which havent really grabbed me).
I liked the in-game look of the sketches and map and so forth. For me, the main value in the AP fiction is as "background reading" for an AP. If I can give the players something it's plausible their characters would have seen, it's preferable to me than a pure fiction story (which they're not going to read anyway).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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AP fiction is such a strange beast. I personally don't pass around the AP volume to my players, so they'll likely never read the fiction. As a GM I want anything in the AP to directly enhance the experience. Right now, while well-written, the fiction still seems extraneous.
If fiction *must* stay in the AP line, why not have it involve the major players in the adventure path itself? I'm envisioning a fiction piece for Reign of Winter where we get to see Elvanna and Rasputin plot to overthrow Baba Yaga. Make the fiction directly serve the AP's story so we (the GMs) can learn and understand the principal cast better.
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I'd rather the space was used for a small but related stand alone adventure, like the ones in Legacy of Fire (which could be 'slotted in' between AP books).
If I want to read, I'll read an actual book.
Plenty can change in a few years time, but here are some relevant posts about this stuff from the past:
JJ on Set Pieces:Set pieces are not coming back. Too many people hated them, and they caused FAR too many problems for us.JJ on Fiction:
Erik on Fiction:Set Pieces and Pregens had two things going against them—a relatively vocal dislike that wasn't really countered by any real rah-rahs (despite folks not liking fiction in the AP, there are a LOT of folks who are quite vocal that they do like it, something that neither Set Pieces and Pregens really had), and the difficulty in creating them.
The fact that the fiction is handled by James Sutter gives me, Rob, and Wes a much needed breather to get the other 90 or so pages of Pathfinder AP out on a relatively monthly schedule. Believe it or not, adding 6 more pages of editing game content to any of us could be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back... ESPECIALLY if those extra 6 pages are an entirely new feature and not an addition to existing feature page counts.
We've done over 50 Adventure Path volumes so far, so we're pretty knowledgable about our skills and resources and the limits of those skills and resources when it comes to producing a monthly 96 page product. As a result, the AP volumes are a relatively well-honed and well-oiled machine these days, and anything that involves drastic changes to that make me VERY nervous.
We are not cutting the fiction.
It is a fundamental part of the AP mix.
I get that some people don't like it, but it is here to stay.
The end. :)
-Skeld
I am not crazy about the change. I enjoyed the fiction when it was tangentially related to the theme of the AP, but was otherwise just a good story on its own merits. The new format reads like most mediocre gamebook fiction -- its aim is to showcase a bunch of people, places, and elements of the setting, and the quality of the story is bent out of shape to accommodate that.
Now it's possible that I just don't care for this particular author's writing style, and the new format is secondary. But at this point, having read the first chapter, it really seems that the new format is part of the culprit.
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I for one enjoyed the new fiction, the sketches and little comments by the writer of the journal are interesting. Like little glimpses at her personality.
I'm torn on the map of the Tooth & Hookah, though. I use a virtual tabletop and it'll look a little odd alongside the other maps available, but I personally think it's a cool touch and will probably spend the little extra time to make it line up right on the VTT. I also have a few ladies in my groups that are going to absolutely lose it at the introduction of Toothy.
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This was the first fiction I've read that I felt was relevant. Why? Because it detailed a place I will be using in the adventure. With that said, I would prefer to toss out the fiction all together and replace it with smaller fun facts about locations in the setting that help make a place more interesting and personal to the players. It's those small details that help paint the picture of a living breathing community.
I'm also a fan of more adventure material as others have stated here. I think it would be cool to have a section dedicated to side quests. Perhaps small events that help flesh out the setting or story.
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OK I'll join in to say I don't like the fiction in APs. I like the fiction, but that's why I buy the Pathfinder novels. I buy the APs for the adventure material.
BUT - as far as the new format goes - this is much closer to actual usable content for the adventure itself. I could see me using this as a backdrop/side adventure for the AP.
So bottom line: big improvement. I would actually stop to read this now that it could be directly used as a location in the AP.
Count me in among those who prefered the old fiction format. I like having the fiction - since I'm playing in a Wrath of the Righteous campaign, that was the only part of the APs I've dared to read for the past six months, and having that material reduced by 1/6 does not make me happy.
The fiction serves no purpose, and there are other things that could be put in its place that are better suited - for one, I suspect a number of people would have loved to see write-ups on the ancient Gods instead of the fiction. And of course additional maps for encounters (like encounters on the streets or the like) would also have been handy.
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BUT - as far as the new format goes - this is much closer to actual usable content for the adventure itself. I could see me using this as a backdrop/side adventure for the AP.
So bottom line: big improvement. I would actually stop to read this now that it could be directly used as a location in the AP.
Other than the first few AP chapters, I really never read the fiction in the AP before today. Not because it was bad/good/whatever, but it did not interest me. Other than my annual re-read of "Talion: Revenant" I have a stack of sci-fi / fantasy books on my night table that I still have to read, and the pile grows and shrinks with time.
Since seeing this thread, I read the fiction in my just downloaded PDF, and agree with Jenner. I can use this fiction in the module, so it becomes more than just something to read, but something that I can use in the AP.
-- david
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Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Good or bad it's always useful to hear. :)
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As a Paizo contributor, I'm obviously biased. But, in my mind, this type of fiction does serve a useful purpose. I think it helps folks with in-character immersion if they can read a story with characters and dialogue which showcases the location(s) where the AP takes place. Adding in a component that gives you an actual map and/or maybe an extra NPC stat-block (with art or something) also gives it an immediate usefulness as actual adventure support material, too.
So, I think this is a wise crossing of the streams. The novels can be the straight, stand-up fiction with no specific tie to an adventure. The adventures themselves won't really cross into fiction territory, though they obviously tell a story of sorts over the course of an entire AP campaign. And now, the backmatter fiction in the APs will kind of straddle the territory between the two. I think it works.
Heh. Now I'm feeling guilty, as I'm a writer and know what negative feedback is like.
Amber, I'm not protesting the quality of your writing. I've not even read it (I'll probably read it eventually when the print copy of the AP reaches me). I just don't like the format of having serial stories in the APs. And hey, here's a soapbox! ^^;;
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Like Neil, I am biased. However, if I take the subject "Should we have fiction" out of the equation and just assume the fiction is here to stay...
I like this change! I flesh in a lot of detail that an AP cannot (due to word count, nothing more). I always have. If the fiction lends itself to doing that to an even greater degree—I'm all for it!
And I will be running Mummy's Mask and looking at the fiction. I definitely want to see this experiment run its course.
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I really like the new format, particularly having some adventure content integrated with the story.
In the old format, I read everything but the fiction and think to myself "once I have the whole AP, I'll go back and read the fiction." Then I forget to go back and read it. Which kind of makes me feel like a jerk, but there you have it.
But with it integrated more closely, I'll probably read it along with the rest of the issue. There's no guarantee I'll like all of it, but I'll definitely be getting more value out of it now than in the past.
Cheers!
Landon
Heh. Now I'm feeling guilty, as I'm a writer and know what negative feedback is like.
Amber, I'm not protesting the quality of your writing. I've not even read it (I'll probably read it eventually when the print copy of the AP reaches me). I just don't like the format of having serial stories in the APs. And hey, here's a soapbox! ^^;;
No guilt necessary! I wouldn't be a writer if I wasn't able to hear both likes and dislikes about my work. I understand this thread is about the format of the fiction and not the content specifically (though it certainly can be) but I still find the comments interesting and useful. :)
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I second that. Your writing is spot on. Like many I believe that fiction belongs in novels and not adventures. I think if a survey were conducted about what people want in the APs and gave us optional choices to the fiction I'm not sure the fiction would be the top choice.
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As Sutter said above, we are certainly paying attention to this thread to see what people like and don’t like about the new format.
Praise alternating with criticism has been something that has followed the Pathfinder Journal since we first met Eando Kline. While we’ve had fiction in every single Adventure Path since day one, it has changed slightly over the years as we march towards the triple digits. Threads periodically pop up about the Pathfinder Journal, and we were already talking about how we could continue to evolve it before the last one popped up. We paid a lot of attention to that one and even announced our plans in that same thread.
We all (Team AP + Sutter + Wes) talked about what we wanted to do with the Pathfinder Journal, and one of the main things we tried to focus on was giving more material to someone running the Adventure Path. A GM can use the characters, setting, locations, and whatnot to enhance their campaign or they can print out the Journal and give it to their players as a handout in order to get them more involved in the setting and events of the campaign. Going forward we’re likely to evolve the Pathfinder Journal further, and I’ll certainly be paying attention to what people think about what we’ve done so far. Thanks for the feedback.
As a charter subscriber I now have 79 issues of AP. I reckon, that at best, I've read maybe the fiction in 10 of those issues and six of those were from RotRL when I was trying consume every single page of content (and its not like I don't read fantasy/SF for enjoyment). However I fully understand the argument from Paizo that the fiction is much easier to produce than game content, and if that keeps me in an AP a month then I'm fully there for that (fiction as far as wasted space). Even If I, and many others, never look at it, well its been a feature for so long that an AP wouldn't be an AP without the fiction.
Given the contents of this thread I went off to read the new stuff so I could add a productive comment.
So I get three paragraphs in and the protagonist is talking about 'being drenched in sticky sweat'. Now I live in a part of Australia that is normally hot and dry (at least in (parts of) summer) and I've travelled in Egypt and Morocco, amongst other places with both dry and wet hot climates. Now maybe I being a pedantic turd, but in a hot dry climate you don't notice sweating. Its like the fluid just disappears from you, you hardly notice yourself sweating. I couldn't get past that. Sorry Amber (though its something the editor should have caught).
So I skimmed the rest of it and looked at the map. Its just another inn. It's not something I couldn't come up with myself in a few seconds and it doesn't add anything to the adventure. Looking close the fact that two of the bedrooms can only be accessed through the bathroom/hamman is, like, really disturbing. Opps its a courtyard, not a bathroom, but with a fountain which is over the common area. Still doesn't make any sense.
Look I get the point that you want to make the fiction section the best and most useful possible. My 2 cents? I don't care (I tried to) and it seems neither do the majority of AP buyers. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
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The thing I really wanted, after reading it, was more info about the other adventuring groups. A paragraph or two about the various members of those groups or interesting locals don't require stats or additional math and would have more worth to me at least.
As a charter subscriber I now have 79 issues of AP. I reckon, that at best, I've read maybe the fiction in 10 of those issues and six of those were from RotRL when I was trying consume every single page of content (and its not like I don't read fantasy/SF for enjoyment). However I fully understand the argument from Paizo that the fiction is much easier to produce than game content, and if that keeps me in an AP a month then I'm fully there for that (fiction as far as wasted space). Even If I, and many others, never look at it, well its been a feature for so long that an AP wouldn't be an AP without the fiction.
Given the contents of this thread I went off to read the new stuff so I could add a productive comment.
So I get three paragraphs in and the protagonist is talking about 'being drenched in sticky sweat'. Now I live in a part of Australia that is normally hot and dry (at least in (parts of) summer) and I've travelled in Egypt and Morocco, amongst other places with both dry and wet hot climates. Now maybe I being a pedantic turd, but in a hot dry climate you don't notice sweating. Its like the fluid just disappears from you, you hardly notice yourself sweating. I couldn't get past that. Sorry Amber (though its something the editor should have caught).
So I skimmed the rest of it and looked at the map. Its just another inn. It's not something I couldn't come up with myself in a few seconds and it doesn't add anything to the adventure. Looking close the fact that two of the bedrooms can only be accessed through the bathroom/hamman is, like, really disturbing. Opps its a courtyard, not a bathroom, but with a fountain which is over the common area. Still doesn't make any sense.
Look I get the point that you want to make the fiction section the best and most useful possible. My 2 cents? I don't care (I tried to) and it seems neither do the majority of AP buyers. Probably not what you wanted to hear.
That's a courtyard, not a bathroom. I foresee an awkward roleplaying encounter in your PC's future... :)
A fine point about desert heat, though. While I wouldn't expect every editor to have sweated in a desert, it turns out I have once or twice, so I could have caught that. Mea culpa.
EDIT: Looks like your edit went into effect while I was responding. :)
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I particularly like the fiction myself. I also really like the way the format has moved towards a way to bring the fiction in line with the adventure. I just read it (and held off reading this thread until I read the article) and I really appreciated all the ideas that come from reading it.
Constantly changing entertainment is a great way to bring in new rumors.
The PCs' party might rent the courtyard suite. It has an exterior gate, but what about the possibility of someone visiting the suite by coming over the walls onto the rooftop courtyard? Did the PCs remember to lock their individual rooms? No? There goes that McGuffin they'll now need to retrieve or maybe someone is waiting for them when they return from the common room one night...
Thank you Amber Scott for some great writing that really helped gestate some great plot hooks and other ideas!
Reaper Miniatures
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Based on this thread, declaring a new format, I checked out the MM book. The new format is more likely to encourage me to read the story, because it has the map. That by itself makes it more useful to me as a GM than I personally feel the fiction alone did, and makes me more likely to experience the content. This is as someone who has actually never read the fiction in a single AP.
I'd rather the fiction be removed entirely and additional maps and background information given. If I want fiction, I'll buy a book. (And trust me; I regularly DO buy books for my personal enjoyment.)
I'll second this. Of the entire AP part, fiction is the last part I read, if I read it at all.
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I'm new, sort of. I was introduced to D&D by a shipmate in 1977. Moved to Harnmaster in the mid-eighties. Haven't played at all, unless online games count, since about '89.
Mummy's Mask is my introduction to the AP subscription. I did download the Rise of the Runelords pdfs. I think the AP concept is outstanding. I like the fiction. Looks like it's here to stay, and that's fine with me.
Speaking of set pieces, it occurs to me that you could run the encounter described in this Mummy's Mask fiction bit as a way of introducing the scenario. The players have just arrived in Wati, and they're discussing tomorrow's lottery, when a stranger walks in...
The players don't need to get involved, they can just watch. :-)
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I'd rather the fiction be removed entirely and additional maps and background information given. If I want fiction, I'll buy a book. (And trust me; I regularly DO buy books for my personal enjoyment.)I'll second this. Of the entire AP part, fiction is the last part I read, if I read it at all.
Again, to each his own... I am a charter subscriber, and I can tell you I've read more of the fiction in the issues I have than I have the adventure. (79 issues, I've read the fiction in over 60 of them, I usually stop reading the adventures after the 3rd book unless I know I want to GM the path - just don't like play above 10th level). unfortunately I don't have my shipment yet, so I haven't read the MM fiction - I'll let you know when I get there
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I have all of the APs and read all of the AP fiction. I like it.
As for the new approach: I also play in APs, as well as GMing, and when I know I might play an AP I don't read it... except for the fiction. I don't want to lose out on having something to read for those 6 months of AP.
I like the idea of the fiction fleshing out the environment or NPC backstory for a minor (or distant) figure but I would really like that information to be guaranteed spoiler-free so that players can read it.
Thinking of an example that would work: Arael's back-story as a freedom-fighting secret cleric in Cheliax could have set up Council of Thieves and been a cool story without creating spoilers.
Similarly, the players learn the Kaijitsu family story by the end of book 1, so the AP volumes could have told their story: start with families being chased out of the country, then reveal more detail int he AP2 issue.
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I wish the Journal was more like a travel guide in the veins of those travel guides we have now. Daily Planet etc. This one goes along that way but for a succesful execution of a travel guide gone rpg one only has to look at Ptolus.
The last page is what I'd like to see them all being. It's a perfect handout for when the players ask what's in a Pathfinder Chronicle.
I wish the Journal was more like a travel guide in the veins of those travel guides we have now. Daily Planet etc. This one goes along that way but for a succesful execution of a travel guide gone rpg one only has to look at Ptolus.
The last page is what I'd like to see them all being. It's a perfect handout for when the players ask what's in a Pathfinder Chronicle.
Hrm...or like the old FR Volo's guides? Maybe done by some errant Pathfinder\Desna travelogue writer? I enjoyed that sort of format from Dragon with its Pages from the Mages, Monster Ecologies, and other articles in a similar vein. I would find even a fantasy version of the Michelin Guide quite a bit more useful than a dose of tenuously related filler fiction.
Considering Golarion has printing presses, there should be plenty of pamphleteers to supply a bit of local knowledge.
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I wish the Journal was more like a travel guide in the veins of those travel guides we have now. Daily Planet etc. This one goes along that way but for a succesful execution of a travel guide gone rpg one only has to look at Ptolus.
The last page is what I'd like to see them all being. It's a perfect handout for when the players ask what's in a Pathfinder Chronicle.
Hrm...or like the old FR Volo's guides? Maybe done by some errant Pathfinder\Desna travelogue writer? I enjoyed that sort of format from Dragon with its Pages from the Mages, Monster Ecologies, and other articles in a similar vein. I would find even a fantasy version of the Michelin Guide quite a bit more useful than a dose of tenuously related filler fiction.
Considering Golarion has printing presses, there should be plenty of pamphleteers to supply a bit of local knowledge.
What would you suggest they should do when the adventure is in a location that doesn't fit for that kind of travel guide? like, in a forgotten city, or some pocket dimension, or something like that.
AP fiction is such a strange beast. I personally don't pass around the AP volume to my players, so they'll likely never read the fiction. As a GM I want anything in the AP to directly enhance the experience. Right now, while well-written, the fiction still seems extraneous.
If fiction *must* stay in the AP line, why not have it involve the major players in the adventure path itself? I'm envisioning a fiction piece for Reign of Winter where we get to see Elvanna and Rasputin plot to overthrow Baba Yaga. Make the fiction directly serve the AP's story so we (the GMs) can learn and understand the principal cast better.
This.. :)
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Well I still like the fiction (which is the only thing I actually have read in a lot of Pathfinder issues so far). It can and often does add a lot of atmosphere to an adventure locality,which is something the other parts of the AP often fail to convey due to space reasons. I had to skip the last AP and the fiction was what I missed most. So I guess it's safe to say that the APs would lose at least some of their value for me if they came without fiction.
I don't mind the bit of material coming with the new format, though. Makes it easier to use during a game session so I guess it is a good compromise.
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I am not crazy about the change. I enjoyed the fiction when it was tangentially related to the theme of the AP, but was otherwise just a good story on its own merits. The new format reads like most mediocre gamebook fiction -- its aim is to showcase a bunch of people, places, and elements of the setting, and the quality of the story is bent out of shape to accommodate that.
I don't agree with the bolded section above.
I like the story, and I like the format (I'm still mostly used to the PF Journals from Runelords), but I'll agree there is a very tight line between the concern/complaint above and successful fiction that doesn't spoil the adventure.
Part I, I'm ecstatic with - I fully feel I can share this with the players, give them a great sense of place, and not spoil things. It could very easily shift into that territory though.
So use the new format as it works well, and don't use it when it doesn't.
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I've always liked the fiction in the APs. In-world stories do a great job for me of fleshing out life in Golarion.
My only quibble in the past was that I would have liked the fiction to be a bit more directly involved with the plot of the AP itself. Perhaps ti could be a parallel story to what the PCs are doing, or maybe just include an NPC or two that the PCs will interact with, or detail a location that the PCs will probably go to.
And that's just what the new format seems to be doing!
Bottom line: I like the change!
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I really, really, *really* like the new format. Adore it, even. I'm already a fan of the fiction, but I felt like the change was a great way for me to get my players involved in it, too. Having the inn and the people in it fleshed out so nicely gave me all kinds of ideas to make downtime come alive, and I think it will help my players really immerse themselves into the setting. I've been a subscriber since Jade Regent, and while I love the APs as a whole, The Half-Dead City is the first book that I loved (and felt like I could use) every single piece of.
I was not a fan of the fiction in the past. I've only gotten Part 1 of this AP so far, with Part 2 on the way. But I have to say I LOVE the new way the fiction section was used in Part 1 of Mummy's Mask. It's a pretty interesting story, and something I can really use (and did use) while running the adventure.
Many, many, many congrats on the change. If fiction is here to stay, then THIS is how you do it in an AP.
I'd still prefer more encounter maps for random encounters and other encounters that aren't provided maps than the fiction. I buy the APs to reduce the amount of work I need to do for the game. The "random" encounters that aren't provided maps are extra work for me, especially as I load everything onto roll20 for my Skype players.
(By the way, what's up with Paizo's version of roll20 anyway? Did it become vaporware?)