Looks really tough for a level 2 party to me. But if you think there up to it, sounds perfect to me.
It's obvious some people are trying too hard to be "different"...
The best "end-game" fight or whatever is usually one with multiple enemies i.e. mooks. I really hate how most GMS spoon feed players and intentionally dumb down combat so PCs can win. The problem is even more exacerbated by the ease of optimizing. I prefer a GM who runs a campaign with story-arcs - usually 3-4 levels each with the opportunity for crafting, bartering, travelling etc.
The boss fight is usually a level appropriate villain with 2-3 guys to help out. Maybe an invisible cleric who only heals, a Invulnerable barbarian with an animal companion who flanks with each other, difficult environments that require climb, swim, and acrobatic checks. Basically anything that challenges players to break from their cookie cutter "I saw this on the boards" build.
I want to take Orfamay Quest's statement to the logical extreme.
Pathfinders mechanics for combat are largely about:
Eliminating an enemy's depletable resources (HP, Ability scores, actions)
-through some method (Physical damage, spell damage, stun/debuffs)
-based on probability (the die roll)
Every combat revolves around these criteria. Period. The end of combat happens when something runs out, barring GM choice. It doesn't matter if it's one Boss, 30 mooks or a Boss and their elites. Reduce one life-value to nothing, win combat.
It's all the same whether it's a boss encounter or not.
You want a unique, engaging combat? Killing the "Boss" should be a secondary or even tertiary objective. Unless the players are heavily invested in the death of their enemy, a "Boss Fight" as has been discussed is pointless. Other than hammed up anticipation, it's nothing more than another fight with a mook.
WHY must the Boss die? Because they are trying to set something in motion and they are the one thing standing between you and stopping that. If the Boss dying stops everything that's in motion, they weren't a threat to begin with.
In that case, having one Boss or 30 mobs doesn't matter: it hasn't been stopped yet. They're rift in the planar boundary is still going to open, their armies aren't going to stop moving with that momentum, that ritual is still ongoing. The Boss in an obstacle, not a goal.
YMMV, as always.
|
How about a large or larger single monster, which you treat as smaller monsters:
For example: A Large Dragon takes up 4 squares of space.
So we divvy up the Dragon according to this:
Dragon Head: (Gets flame breath or bite)
Dragon Wings: (Allows dragon to fly/make wing buffet attacks)
Dragon Legs: (Claw attacks, ground movement)
Dragon Tail: (Tail Slap, Dragon can't be flanked while tail is active)
Divvy the Dragon's hp among the 4 parts of the Dragon. PCs can target individual parts of the dragon, but each part gets its own turn (and initiative).
Benefits: Allows the solo boss to overcome some action economy issues, doesn't provide blanket immunities to the boss, gives players a tactical choice (Do we take out its wings to stop it from strafing us with breath weapons? Do we take out the tail so our rogue can get Sneak Attack off? We can't all aim at the head (its body provides cover from most angles, and there's not enough space for melee characters).
Drawbacks: Very house-ruly.
Anyway, I think it'd be a great way to do some solo creatures of higher CR.
|
How about a large or larger single monster, which you treat as smaller monsters
I love this idea, but I think it would be enough to simply put each of its natural attacks and special abilities on their own initiatives. Dividing up its hit points actually makes it weaker than a normal dragon.
For example, once you destroy the tail section, it presumably loses that attack; now the rest of it is easier to kill, an weakness a regular dragon wouldn't have. Also, wouldn't you just get your party to focus fire the head (which would logically kill it, right?) since it only has 25% of the dragon's normal hit points?
To make the fight more interesting while also making the dragon more powerful, let it split up its movement however it wants between all of those separate initiatives. He 5' steps up to bite the paladin, then just before his wings go, he moves 30' to threaten the wizard. Finally, on his tail's initiative, he moves his last 10' to get close enough to trip that rogue.
Speaking from personal experience here:
The final battle of a 3-year campaign I ran was a custom monster I created.
She had 5000 hit points (no typo), was immune to anything that would instantly defeat her, recovered from any debuff in very short order, and could act three times a round.
I also basically completely threw rules out the window - she didn't actually have a stat block other than AC and saves. Instead I wrote individual attack routines - "this round, she uses this attack, with these bonuses, then uses this ability, with these bonuses, then does this".
So in other words, I did everything Orfamay Quest says makes a terrible boss battle.
But you know what?
My players had a blast.
It was the end of an epic campaign, the battle against a BBEG that had been against them from the very start. They were mythic and insanely powerful in their own right. It was a completely gonzo, silly over the top battle that lasted an entire session and my players still talk about it being one of their favorite sessions.
So I don't think you can say "do this and it will always suck" or "this kind of battle will always be fun". What it comes down to, as with every aspect of a GM's job, is know your players. I didn't have a single character in my party who was save-or-suck focused; everyone was a damage dealer. So a boss that was a giant pile of hit points was playing to my party's strengths.
I built action routines for her that gave different players a chance to shine - one round she had a special barrier that blocked attacks originating from more than 10 feet away, so the melee fighters could go to town. The next round, she teleported away from anyone who got close - the ranged attackers got to have their moment in the limelight.
I think boss battles can be all kinds of fun. They can also be horribly boring. They have to be very carefully tailored to your party and their expectations. That's why I think "elite monster" templates and that sort of thing are a bad idea - you can't design a boss in a vacuum, or create a boss that will be interesting for every party.
Anyway, there's my opinion.
|
|
How about a large or larger single monster, which you treat as smaller monstersI love this idea, but I think it would be enough to simply put each of its natural attacks and special abilities on their own initiatives. Dividing up its hit points actually makes it weaker than a normal dragon.
For example, once you destroy the tail section, it presumably loses that attack; now the rest of it is easier to kill, an weakness a regular dragon wouldn't have. Also, wouldn't you just get your party to focus fire the head (which would logically kill it, right?) since it only has 25% of the dragon's normal hit points?
To make the fight more interesting while also making the dragon more powerful, let it split up its movement however it wants between all of those separate initiatives. He 5' steps up to bite the paladin, then just before his wings go, he moves 30' to threaten the wizard. Finally, on his tail's initiative, he moves his last 10' to get close enough to trip that rogue.
Give the parts some extra hp, but part of the fun is taking out a bit that's giving you trouble. That's part of the tactics, and as for focus-fire on the head, well the head would have a Size bonus to AC ;).
|
|
Give the parts some extra hp, but part of the fun is taking out a bit that's giving you trouble. That's part of the tactics, and as for focus-fire on the head, well the head would have a Size bonus to AC ;).How about a large or larger single monster, which you treat as smaller monstersI love this idea, but I think it would be enough to simply put each of its natural attacks and special abilities on their own initiatives. Dividing up its hit points actually makes it weaker than a normal dragon.
For example, once you destroy the tail section, it presumably loses that attack; now the rest of it is easier to kill, an weakness a regular dragon wouldn't have. Also, wouldn't you just get your party to focus fire the head (which would logically kill it, right?) since it only has 25% of the dragon's normal hit points?
To make the fight more interesting while also making the dragon more powerful, let it split up its movement however it wants between all of those separate initiatives. He 5' steps up to bite the paladin, then just before his wings go, he moves 30' to threaten the wizard. Finally, on his tail's initiative, he moves his last 10' to get close enough to trip that rogue.
Also when the head loses it's hp, it doesn't mean the Dragon is braindead, it means the dragon can no longer use its bite attack/breath weapon/spellcasting. Essentially you knocked its teeth in, or dislocated its jaw.
I'd like to speak to something that Shindig brought up:
You want a unique, engaging combat? Killing the "Boss" should be a secondary or even tertiary objective. Unless the players are heavily invested in the death of their enemy, a "Boss Fight" as has been discussed is pointless. Other than hammed up anticipation, it's nothing more than another fight with a mook.
WHY must the Boss die? Because they are trying to set something in motion and they are the one thing standing between you and stopping that. If the Boss dying stops everything that's in motion, they weren't a threat to begin with.
Now that's an awesome thought and is very fun, but it can be a real challenge to set up and get the PCs informed of. Say you have a villain, and they're bringing an army through a planar rift. Well, you as the GM have to
1. Understand fully the nature of the spell(s) or rite(s) being used
2. Explain that to the PCs with multiple clues they'll understand
3. Communicate that the "boss" isn't the lynchpin
4. Create a reasonable condition for success (a time limit, withholding a mineral, etc)
5. Communicate the success condition
6. Ensure the PCs follow all of your communications to their logical end
I'm not saying its impossible mind you, nor am I saying its bad. As I said; it can be very fun. I just feel as a GM of a monthly gaming group this is a lot of exposition and detective work. In short; I don't think its for everyone.
No I like what Maxie is saying up above - namely that we as GMs should know our game, know our players and create whole adventures based on that knowledge. Maybe your group wants no boss fights; maybe they want running bosses they meet in the first room and then re-appear in room 3, 7 and 12 of the dungeon; maybe they play just enough video games where they LIKE a giant four-armed skeleton with unique powers and four pillars you can collapse on him for an alternate "win" strategy.
Bottom line: as long as your players are still having fun, who cares.
In a campaign I was involved in, we had enough players to fill 3 tables. So we had a team of 4 DMs working together to provide similar intertwined stories to 3 tables of between 5 and 6 players each.
So we decided to try a Raid boss. Each table of players had their own goal in entering the castle, or they each had their own objectives. Once they completed these objectives they all met up in the court yard, where the raid boss was.
So we had a battle, with 14 players attacking one monster.
I created an 'abomination' that was inspired by the abominations from Warcraft 3. (This was awhile ago)
The Abomination had 2 heads, so it could act on two initiative orders. He had a 20 ft aura that did straight disease damage, paladins were immune. He had AoE melee attacks, cleave (arc 6 connected squares) smash (square 3x3)
His stomach was a giant mouth, he would bite a melee character, swallow him/her whole, than he would spit the character at one of the ranged characters in the back, as a ranged attack.
He had a bile bomb, where he would launch giant acid balls siege style at groups of ranged characters.
He had a ton of hp, with regeneration.
He had weaknesses as well. To prep the party before the fight, they killed a few small ones, so they were able to understand what hurt it, and tactics before going in.
I thought it went pretty well. I ran the Raid boss, another DM maintained Initiative, and other DMs walked around and assisted players.
I guess this is a 'boss' fight in a much larger scale.
Um...pardon my French but that...is just the most AWESOME F!$%#^%&ng thing I have ever heard of for a boss fight! I am so jealous of those 14 players!
I managed to run a very fun/frightening solo final boss encounter for Serpent's Skull. I won't give any spoilers, but basically I upgraded final the boss with the following:
Agile Mythic Template
Invincible Mythic Telplate
Quicken Spell Like Ability for two of his Spell-like abilities
'Hero' Points to give him a limited number of extra actions and save bonuses to avoid instant death.
And of course, the Advanced Template
Between the Agile Template, Quicken Spell-like ability, and the 'hero' points this guy had he was getting about the equivilent of four to six standard action equivilents per round against a party of five. I also made sure to make full use of the boss's reach + combat reflexes to have him trip anyone who tried to get near him.
The party had to get extrmely creative with their spells and abilities to bring this guy down. I think he lasted 10 rounds and took out half the party before dieing. These were among the only deaths in the campaign, and they had raise spells, so even the dead players had fun with the fight. It ended up being a very fun and memorable final boss encounter.
I like the recurring villain as the final fight. It does not even have to be especially tough but if it has some ability that has allowed it to cause trouble for the party time and time again and the party has finally tracked it down/corned it and defeated it, it can be really satisfying.
|
|
I like the recurring villain as the final fight. It does not even have to be especially tough but if it has some ability that has allowed it to cause trouble for the party time and time again and the party has finally tracked it down/corned it and defeated it, it can be really satisfying.
Like an evil wizard in a tower somewhere who hates the players for some reason and constantly sends his latest and greatest constructs after them?
"Oh no, it's Doctor Clockwork's latest golem! Heads up!"
I like the recurring villain as the final fight. It does not even have to be especially tough but if it has some ability that has allowed it to cause trouble for the party time and time again and the party has finally tracked it down/corned it and defeated it, it can be really satisfying.Like an evil wizard in a tower somewhere who hates the players for some reason and constantly sends his latest and greatest constructs after them?
"Oh no, it's Doctor Clockwork's latest golem! Heads up!"
Actually, I never liked those. I couldn't get past, "Why does this guy never learn? He devotes all that time/resources/gold into sending these attacks that never work. Wouldn't he either decide to leave us alone or finish it with something truly nasty? Or send 6 of them at once? Or send a bunch of brigands with poisoned arrows to shoot us while we deal with the golem? Or... Anything but the same stupid thing that hasn't worked the last umpteen times."
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Bah! My incompetent minions have failed again!"
"Send me, my lord..."
"No, Shadow Demon. I must save you for last. After these thorns in my side have practiced defeating all my other minions, and become skilled and strong enough to defeat you...THEN I shall unleash you on them!"
"Sigh..."
"Send forth a pack of my next least competent minions!"
|
|
Actually, I never liked those. I couldn't get past, "Why does this guy never learn? He devotes all that time/resources/gold into sending these attacks that never work. Wouldn't he either decide to leave us alone or finish it with something truly nasty? Or send 6 of them at once? Or send a bunch of brigands with poisoned arrows to shoot us while we deal with the golem? Or... Anything but the same stupid thing that hasn't worked the last umpteen times."I like the recurring villain as the final fight. It does not even have to be especially tough but if it has some ability that has allowed it to cause trouble for the party time and time again and the party has finally tracked it down/corned it and defeated it, it can be really satisfying.Like an evil wizard in a tower somewhere who hates the players for some reason and constantly sends his latest and greatest constructs after them?
"Oh no, it's Doctor Clockwork's latest golem! Heads up!"
What if each subsequent minion was modified in such a way that it was apparent that the evil wizard was learning?
If the party kills one robot with lots of fire attacks, the next is modified with fire resistance. So they kill that one by tripping it over and over again, so the third one has four legs. Etc, etc, etc.
Actually, I never liked those. I couldn't get past, "Why does this guy never learn? He devotes all that time/resources/gold into sending these attacks that never work. Wouldn't he either decide to leave us alone or finish it with something truly nasty? Or send 6 of them at once? Or send a bunch of brigands with poisoned arrows to shoot us while we deal with the golem? Or... Anything but the same stupid thing that hasn't worked the last umpteen times."I like the recurring villain as the final fight. It does not even have to be especially tough but if it has some ability that has allowed it to cause trouble for the party time and time again and the party has finally tracked it down/corned it and defeated it, it can be really satisfying.Like an evil wizard in a tower somewhere who hates the players for some reason and constantly sends his latest and greatest constructs after them?
"Oh no, it's Doctor Clockwork's latest golem! Heads up!"
What if each subsequent minion was modified in such a way that it was apparent that the evil wizard was learning?
If the party kills one robot with lots of fire attacks, the next is modified with fire resistance. So they kill that one by tripping it over and over again, so the third one has four legs. Etc, etc, etc.
That wouldn't be so bad. But it should be at least enough better that the BBEG could reasonably expect it to win.
I did something like that not too long ago.
BBEG sends
- A moderately decent undead assassin APL. It dies.
- Team of low level undead spies to watch and report on the PC's.
- Pair of much better undead assassins APL with tactics to offset what the PC's had been observed doing so far. They died, because the fights the spies had observed were not ones where the PC's had to pull out all the stops.
- More spies watching them. Also questioning the spirits of their most recent foes to learn all the tactics that had been used. Really prepares for them.
- Pair of really good undead assassins APL+1, buffing cleric APL-3, controlling wizard APL-3, couple dozen warrior mooks Lv2 coming in waves, advantageous terrain, setup in ambush, scroll of fog cloud to offset archer, several scrolls of communal resist fire to offset the blaster, many vials of alchemist fire and acid to hurt the high AC tank-ish guys, 2 scrolls circle of invis and silence to help the ambush, decoy pit trap and terrain to hold off the melee guys, etc...
- Fourth attack was all 6 of the revived undead assassins APL+2 waiting for the PC's on their ship. They had killed the crew and animated them for mooks. They had counters to almost all of the PC's primary attacks. The BBEG was intelligent and resourceful. The PC's had to rely on tactics and spells they hadn't used much before. Plus they had to be careful not to damage their own ship so they could get away.
First attack was easy.
Second attack was easier than it should have been since the high perception PC rolled a 20 on initiative and 2 crits with his bow. But otherwise would have been a reasonable challenge.
Third attack was very different. It is easy to see that the BBEG expected it to win. It took most of a game session to resolve, the PC's used maybe a 1/3 of their daily resources, and they were getting worried. They won with no deaths or even seriously close to death. But there were several 'Oh crap!' moments.
Fourth attack was serious bid to wipe them out. BBEG basically did almost everything he could except go himself (which is not in his personality). No PC deaths, but 2 of the 5 were unconscious. The rest were hurt enough to be very concerned about a TPK.
My answer to all the cynical folks who say "why would the BBEG send wave after wave of minions after the PCs?"
Level 1: You enter a dark cave... it swallows. You take... 378 pts of damage and you need to save against a DC 29 Fort save or be dissolved in a round.
No, I'd rather have the dragon wait DEEPER in the cave so his kobolds can play with his food for him for a bit.
Now, that's not saying I don't have bosses show up in the first fight. I made a module, fairly standard 5 room dungeon until the last few chambers. Suddenly things got dark and horrible. The PCs meet the boss, a spell-casting ghoul, but she's nearly out of spells for the day.
Her minions hold the party in one room, she retreats to another, and begins biting victims to make human shields. The party encounters her a couple rounds later surrounded by a couple vics that have turned and others just paralyzed.
They were pretty worn down and couldn't get at the ghoul, but she had also taken enough damage where she decided to flee. She got away and the party rescued a few of the kids they'd come for. You see, one of the players had asked for a game w/a recurring villain. Again, it all comes down to what participants want...
For all the DMs out there who write their own material, how do you design and run your boss fights?
While I often lament how RPGs have suffered since the development of the MMO, there's one thing RPGs could learn from video games: how to craft an exciting, dynamic boss fight.
So what are some clever tricks you guys have used before?
I believe one should take a tip from MMORPG's; design unique mechanics for the BBEG.
As it stands, we're in an Evil campaign, and we are currently fighting a fully-buffed Mythic (sort of) Dragon. He has DR 10/Magic (for our group, requiring +2 Weapons to bypass it), and is immune to Cold, Acid, and wears a Ring of Fire Protection +10.
With a Breath Weapon of 10D8 and 3 Magic-Immune Celestials orbiting his head, he has 5 attacks, with 2 of the Celestials casting Heal and Searing Light every round, and the third Celestial channeling (what we assume is) a Maximized, Empowered, Amplified Flame Strike (over the course of 3 rounds), and let's just say that when combat dragged on, I thought for sure we were going to have a TPK; we were running out of options, people weren't knowing how to best affect the combat, and weren't even thinking straight (I actually thought the guy could use Combat Reflexes, even though he's a Gargantuan-sized Dragon). But now we have the upper-hand, since we snagged a few minions to help with the Action Economy.
For our party of 6, the strategy we used boiled down to interrupting the 2 Celestials with our 2 'archers' (we decided to ignore the Blue one, since its ~20 damage per round isn't that big of a deal to interrupt, even if we only have a Witch for healing), as well as debuffing the Dragon (chilling at a +22 to hit at 9th level with Divine Favor active, I have to roll a 6 or higher without his buffs to hit him and deal damage), whereas before I had to roll an 18 or higher just to graze him (not to mention rolling a 19 for Acrobatics against his CMD just to get in range).
I believe one should take a tip from MMORPG's
Aaaaand you lost me.
I make my bosses in two ways.
One, make him so weak he is not even present in the fight. Instead he is hiding in the back room. His minions are what you fight instead, and they are tough and numerous. After all, what made him a threat to the PCs was his ability to draw others to his cause.
Or two, the boss is PC strength, or stronger than a PC, has a pet monster/strong dude or two (better at combat than him) and a group of strong minions. The minions will be strong enough to threaten players, but be easily dispatched (Like a 10th level fighter can still hit a 16th level PC quite well, but is killed easily).
Often these bosses have teamwork feats to make life easier. Example that I will be running next session, being ran against 9th and 10th level PCs:
-Fiendish 9th level Warpriest (the boss, a priest trying the ritual in Book of the Damned Volume 2 to turn himself and griffon into demons). Has Shake it off.
-Fiendish Griffon with 4 levels in Abyssal Bloodrager.
-5 x Phalanx Soldier fighters level 8. All have combat reflexes, paired opportunists, pack attack, and shake it off. Ran as a brick, they all have massive saves and get very accurate attacks of opportunity to those rushing them.
-2 x Archers of 6th level with Target of Opportunity to get free shots.
This will provide a very hard fight, as it is against a organized and strong foe. The fight has obvious weaknesses, but any one NPC being insta-killed won't turn this fight into a cakewalk.
The one taboo for bosses is letting the boss be one or two strong dudes. They need backup to exist.
Secondly, good boss fights can be done with NPCs using class levels. They use varied tactics that PCs will have a hard time metagaming against, since any one NPC could be any class, and they only have the character's outward appearance to go off of. The Warpriest in the prior encounter looks like a fighter for instance. The Griffon looks like a fiendish griffon until it starts raging and doubles in size.
Similiarly, the archers could be arcane archers, zen archers, archer warpriests, or even wizards holding bows to trick the PCs. This is something you can't get with monsters.
I believe one should take a tip from MMORPG'sAaaaand you lost me.
Because MMORPGs can't be creative and are nothing more than wasteful grindfests? Hardly a reason to scoff at it.
Even so, it's simply an example of subject matter that allows the GM to think outside the box they're already playing in. Not my fault you only have bad experiences with that sort of gameplay; then again, your definition of MMORPG compared to mine must be completely different.
Back on topic: Unique mechanics for a boss truly makes them a boss. It requires some internal crafting (and possible self-testing), but it's not that big of a deal if it makes the encounter much more interesting without reusing the same materials over and over again, creating an amplified enjoyable experience.
|
|
I believe one should take a tip from MMORPG'sAaaaand you lost me.
There's a lot to be said, for giving the opposition have access to tools the PCs don't.
While I welcome the changes in 3E, that meant NPCs and monsters were described in the same terms as PCs, I don't necessarily believe they need to be built the same way as PCs.That leads to problems down the line, when, in order to make an NPC competitive, they need magical gear, which then ends in the hands of the PCs, which requires the next NPCs to require more magical gear to be competitive, etc.
Avoiding the trope of the 'wheelbarrow full of +1 swords' is a worthwhile goal, and if the way to do that is to alter the way NPCs acquire abilities, then that seems sensible.
Put another way, if the BBEG's bodyguard needs attack bonuses of +20, to have the desired %age chance of hitting the typical AC of a level X PC, then why not just save everyone a lot of math, by just giving the NPC that score?
If the BBEG needs to be able to shield his thoughts, to be able to carry off his cunning plan, why not just give them that ability (maybe explained by divine intervention, psychic brain parasites, or whatever), rather than have every non-thug BBEG drop an amulet of non-detection in the PCs' laps?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... If the BBEG needs to be able to shield his thoughts, to be able to carry off his cunning plan, why not just give them that ability (maybe explained by divine intervention, psychic brain parasites, or whatever), rather than have every non-thug BBEG drop an amulet of non-detection in the PCs' laps?
Funny thing. I only do that for mooks that I don't want to take the time to figure out a build. Ok these guys are mostly melee sword guys. To be threat to this level they need about a +X to hit. Give them a +3 to damage. Ranged not as good +(X-2) to hit. To have a chance to last more than one hit from a secondary melee they need Y hp. To make sure every iterative isn't a guaranteed hit, give them AC Z. Etc...
Serious bad guys, I nearly always figure out a way to make what I want within the rules. I have almost never found a BBEG concept that I wanted to make that couldn't be fit in the rules. It might be piles-o-multiclassing and seem way over APL because of that, but I can get there.
In my campaign I have a semi boss fight but the main goal is for the evilpcs to take over the Capitol so they wontbe hunted / attacked anymore the Capitol is holy and the bosses (council type rulers)will have PC armor
I don't care about bumping wbl too high for 2 reasons
1) end of campaign
2) the evil PC's will be bbegs in next arc
And I'm going for the bbegs escape so the holy Capitol rulers(not all but 1 or 2) can "train" new PC's to give hints and plot hooks in 2nd campaign
MMO snark aside, monsters cheat. Make your boss fight work however you like. Just make sure it's internally consistent enough that the players maintain suspension of disbelief. If every schmuck bandit leader they come across just happens to be immune to the party wizard's save or suck just because he happens to be the "boss" of that adventure, most players are going to be (rightfully) annoyed.
I like boss fights. I like them as a GM, and I like them as a player. What I think are crucial to them are as follows:
1. A singular or at most 2 major threats to the party. Any more than that and it's both complicated to run as a GM, and loses focus for the players - they are likely to either go nova one or two of them and then be either taken out by the rest, or flee from the rest, which effectively turns it into a 1-2 boss fight anyway. If they can take out the rest anyway, it's not a real boss fight.
2. Made more dramatic by the setting. Chasm over lava, Fog-shrouded mountaintop, swampy jungle - whatever, it needs some elements which mark it out from the surrounding area, and also make it easier for the big bad to win over the heroes (otherwise why would the BBEG choose to fight our heroes, unless there's something in it's favour - beyond raw power anyway)
3. Have meaning. The win or loss should have an impact beyond the obvious "we're dead or it's dead" switches. The impact may depend on something completely unconnected to the win/lose situation, but the battle's outcome should have some relevance to how the characters can improve the good or lessen the bad aspects of such an impact.
Last week, we fought a Red Dragon, a big one. Normally, I'd class this as a BBEG: it had foreshadowing, the dragon had comparable power (I think) against our party (Snorter can confirm!), and the dragon wanted the same thing we wanted, so the battle had meaning - defeat it or we could lose the race to the McGuffin.
But the setting wasn't on it's terms - it couldn't fly effectively. So we cut it down with comparative ease (or luck? Snorter can weigh in again if he likes! :-)
So it wasn't a Boss fight. But, it did have contingency (which allowed it to escape) and so it could come back as a BBEG when the fight can be on fairer terms (and it knows how we operate). Urk.
Where am I going with this? Dunno. Follow those three rules. And perhaps not worry so much about the mechanics of how they get to be BBEGs - just make them harder opponents, or prep more about their tactics/location.
And use mooks, or some other battlefield control.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last week, we fought a Red Dragon, a big one. Normally, I'd class this as a BBEG: it had foreshadowing, the dragon had comparable power (I think) against our party (Snorter can confirm!), and the dragon wanted the same thing we wanted, so the battle had meaning - defeat it or we could lose the race to the McGuffin.
But the setting wasn't on it's terms - it couldn't fly effectively. So we cut it down with comparative ease (or luck? Snorter can weigh in again if he likes! :-)
So it wasn't a Boss fight. But, it did have contingency (which allowed it to escape) and so it could come back as a BBEG when the fight can be on fairer terms (and it knows how we operate). Urk.
I did expect the fight to go on longer than it did, but I wasn't upset that it was cut down so quickly, as I had already decided on it having a contingent teleport (though that would have failed if the last hit had been a crit, taking it from conscious to dead in one blow).
It was hampered, by having to melt its way into the side of the mountain, then having to recharge its breath, during which, it cast some buffs, and waited to AoO anyone coming near.
It was taken by surprise by the number of attacks that came back at it, thinking you'd be limited to move/attack. It won't make that mistake next time....
I don't mind if BBEG's go down, as long as they get to do something, especially if that something is a signature ability, that raises some eyebrows, and makes the fight still memorable, several chapters later.
Knowing you may be re-facing a dragon that can bypass Reflex saves by turning your cover to lava is hopefully one of those 'Oh, sh1t!' moments.
As is the spell reflection that had the PC wizard shoot himself and two others with his own chain lightning.
It makes a future fight more tactically tricky than the status quo modus operandi you've built, of two PCs just trading full attacks while reach-cures and artillery shoot in from the other side of the battlefield.
Wouldn't it be great if someone came out with a supplement that let you take just about any monster and turn it into a boss fight?
Unfortunately, that is almost the equivalent of asking "wouldn't it be great if someone gave me the recipe to writing a great novel or movie script?" Beyond the good advice of some posts in this thread, creative encounter design, and creative final boss encounter require, well, creativity to make them unique and memorable.
With that said, I fall into the camp of hating solo BBEG's. They are anti-climactic, and disappointing for all. I use a method similar to Mr. Hoover, almost. The average party can handle 4-5 APL encounters per day. My BBEG lairs tend to have that many encounters in them. And they tend to be in close proximity to the BBEG. Sometimes, the PC's can pick off one or two enemies at a time. Sometime they raise an alarm, and are facing the BBEG and all his minions at once.
Oye! Didn't notice that.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is a year old- maybe you don't want to necro it?
Here we go again with the classic forum "can't win" scenario:
Make a new thread and someone inevitably says, "there's a thread for this already - learn to use search!"
Use search to find an existing thread and add to it and someone inevitably says, "way to necro, noob!"
Stay classy, Paizo message boards. :)
There is a difference between explicitly necroing a thread to add something new to a discussion topic and replying to a year old thread as if it was made an hour ago.
I have seen plenty of posts that are very clearly necros and intended to be necros that haven't copped any flack whatsoever. It's only when the poster looks like they don't realize they're necroing that others get critical.
I like a 1-3-5 or 1-2-4 approach...
1 BBEG, 2-3 2ic and 4-5 front liners
A really good one Ive seen work is with the BBEG as a pure martial and the others as a mix of 4th/6th level casters and ninja/rogue types.
The casters focus on casting non-blasty spells that slow the party down and tie up their action economy and with the odd buff thrown in, the rogues/ninja harass the casters and then the Hulk runs around in full beast mode critting!!!
OQ, you have a boring DM problem not a boring boss fight problem.Boom goes the dynamite.
It's startling how many posts on this forum, full of complaints about game balance and other systems, really just boil down to having a bad DM.
I would be willing to bet most of them.