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For all the DMs out there who write their own material, how do you design and run your boss fights?
While I often lament how RPGs have suffered since the development of the MMO, there's one thing RPGs could learn from video games: how to craft an exciting, dynamic boss fight.
So what are some clever tricks you guys have used before?
Obviously tastes differ; I find the boss fights invariably the most boring parts of MMOs.
The lesson I learned from MMO boss fights is Don't.
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So what happens at the end of your adventures when the players confront the evil necromancer that's been terrorizing the city? A rousing debate?
Or are you hinting that you run your games more like gritty, realistic dramas, like Game of Thrones? While something like that is really fun to watch, and might be fun to play, I've found that a boss fight really does a great job of capping off an adventure.
In my games, the 'boss fights' can be recognized by enemies that take the time to taunt and verbally interact with the party.
I try to give the bosses some personality... the henchmen, might as well be wearing black T-shirts that say "henchmen"
So what happens at the end of your adventures when the players confront the evil necromancer that's been terrorizing the city? A rousing debate?
A fight without a "boss." Or a skill challenge. Or a platformer. Or, anything, really, except another cliche'd "boss fight."
Or are you hinting that you run your games more like gritty, realistic dramas, like Game of Thrones?
No, I'm "hinting" that boss fights, in my opinion, are boring. (If by "hinting" you mean stating outright.) Oh, gee, it's a monster with a billion hit points that needs to be ground into a fine powder while doing enormous amounts of damage to everyone in the party. Again. And thre's some cunning trick that I'm supposed to use involving a MacGuffin. Here, roll my dice for me while I check my email.
The best boss fight evar was at the end of the film version of The Lord of the Rings. Because the boss was more than a hundred miles away from the fight.
Hi Headfirst,
I'm a PC, not a GM, but felt the need to comment anyhow. One of the interesting things that our DM will do is challenge the characters. I know that's prolly obvious, but he's used fog clouds, psionic characters, and a host of other builds/terrains to thwart our builds. We used to look at it like a challenge. Build an efficient party and the DM would build efficient mobs/terrain within CR. GL and HF.
-KZ
The Abomination had 2 heads, so it could act on two initiative orders. He had a 20 ft aura that did straight disease damage, paladins were immune. He had AoE melee attacks, cleave (arc 6 connected squares) smash (square 3x3)His stomach was a giant mouth, he would bite a melee character, swallow him/her whole, than he would spit the character at one of the ranged characters in the back, as a ranged attack.
He had a bile bomb, where he would launch giant acid balls siege style at groups of ranged characters.
He had a ton of hp, with regeneration.
"Oh, gee, it's a monster with a billion hit points that needs to be ground into a fine powder while doing enormous amounts of damage to everyone in the party."
"Again."
He had weaknesses as well. To prep the party before the fight, they killed a few small ones, so they were able to understand what hurt it, and tactics before going in.
"And thre's some cunning trick that I'm supposed to use involving a MacGuffin."
I guess this is a 'boss' fight in a much larger scale.
Yes, it is. "Here, roll my dice for me while I check my email."
Sorry, but this just typifies everything that sucks about a cliche'd boss fight. I'd be asking to take 10 on my attack rolls.
To me, what makes a boss fight exciting is to make it a fight with not only the boss, but his minions as well. A good boss fight should also usually be on terrain familiar to said boss (be it a castle, lair, whatever) and said terrain should be designed to assist the boss. Maybe there's traps in the throne room that the boss can easily activate and which will then act on their own, perhaps that red dragon built his lair in the volcano so that the heat won't bother him but will bother a lot of people that might want to steal his horde, etc.
The key though is don't just use a single, massive creature with tons of hit points and have him and the party trade punches back and forth. That, I think, typically makes for a boring fight, and given the action economy, typically results in a cake walk for the party provided the boss isn't significantly higher level than the party. Instead, have henchmen buffing the Lord, make the terrain dynamic, have traps shooting at the PCs, etc. Make it so that there are a number of issues for the PCs to deal with during the fight. Force the players to weigh and make choices rather than "Uh, I guess I'll swing my axe at the dragon."
I hear Orfamay, and have found some disillusionment with them over the years. One of the things I've tried to do with my boss fights, as a result, is always give the boss a way to beat a hasty retreat. This way the "bosses" become recurring NPCs that taunt the PCs from a distance, and spend their time figuring ways to specifically thwart the PCs. This has always been a source of great tension at the table, because when the PCs know that a powerful character is out in the world actively hating them, and plotting to kill them, they are very cautious, about everything. They literally distrust every NPC they run into, because they worry that they might be working for "the boss that got away." I also, many times, have the escaped bosses send the PCs messages through legitimate couriers. Of course all of these messages are written with explosive runes. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Overall, you should stop thinking about it in video game terms. In video games, boss fights are usually not actually fights. They're either puzzles (Zelda, Metroid, etc) or just some really big guy with area attacks, an insane amount of hitpoints, and immunity to disables. I can't really call the latter an actual fight because it's more of a test of attrition.
Instead, think of it as "climatic encounter." A climatic encounter can be any memorable confrontation. It doesn't have to be combat. It could be a race to a macguffin or a chase to stop the Big Bad from getting away. Maybe it's an auction or a political debate! If you want it to be a fight, make it have unusual circumstances that prevent it from being a straight-forward combat.
If you still want a standard fight, at least follow one piece of advice: never have the big bad fight alone. He should always have competent assistance. This is because a single foe has a massive action economy disadvantage against a party of five.
Honestly, I found that the best "boss" fight is actually a rival party.
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Gargs454 has great advice. Include lots of minions to keep your PCs busy and distracted from the major villain so that he doesn't go down in one round (which is highly likely since the villain only gets to act once per round!). If the PCs have to fight through difficult terrain, weaker (but still dangerous) minions, and other hazardous terrain obstacles (statues that spew jets of flame! pit traps scattered about the area!), the battle will be much more epic, much more harrowing, and much more challenging. Which will also make them feel like they've accomplished something awesome when they inevitably win.
Also, I would suggest that the fight make a difference in the campaign. What would happen if the heroes lose? Does their hometown become enslaved? Their families torn apart? Their souls dried up into withered husks? The more you have at stake, the more tension you'll create.
As a final suggestion, ignore Orfamay Quest entirely -- only you know if your group wants a boss battle or not. No matter how cliche boss battles can be, you can still make them incredibly exciting and memorable, which will trump any perception of cliche your players may have.
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Leaving aside the whole "Do you do this at all?" (which seems to me to be up to the PCs), my basic advice is as follows:
1. I don't have the PCs fight lone opponents unless they're APL+3-4 and it's at the end of a long day so the PCs resources are low. And yes, you can set that situation up. Action economy is brutal, and unless they have serious advantages the PCs will just destroy them. My 'boss fights' are usually the vilain, his personal bodyguards/advisors, some minions, etc. All less powerful than the PCs and much less powerful than the villain, but enough to be a threat. I find that enough minions to raise the CR by 1 is usually a good amount. A good 'boss encounter' for a 10th level party might be a CR 13 and either a pair of CR 9s, or maybe four CR 7s if the boss has buffing abilities. Another possible encounter would be a CR 12 and either another CR 12 (they're twins! Or a couple!), or two CR 10s, or four CR 8s. A whole opposing party (four CR 10s in this case) can also be fun, but doesn't always work thematically.
2. Defense, defense, defense. Especially spells and saves. Mirror Image usually buys a character a round vs. PCs, for example. Defense is better than offense for villains (while the opposite is true of PCs). If you focus entirely on offense, either they'll destroy the PCs before the PCs get to do anything, or the PCs will kill them dead before they get to do anything major. Neither is fun. A defensively oriented villain, meanwhile, may not destroy the PCs as well, but will likely last long enough to do some (potentially serious) damage, letting them know they've been in a fight without it all being over in a round. This is every bit as true for a boss with minions, since PCs will wind up focusing fire eventually. I'm not saying to neglect offense entirely (Power Attack and Save DC enhancers are your friends), but put more effort into surviving than killing.
3. Prep-time. Mostly, barring the PCs being much stealthier than they usually are, a smart villain should have some prep time before the big battle. The PCs might or might not. Prep is obviously more useful for spellcasters, but even a martial boss should have a few useful potions on their person. The Alarm spell is excellent to ensure this if the party is at all careless (and many are, especially if you rarely use traps).
4. Wear the PCs down. Why in the world would any smart villain not be in a base surrounded by guards, or a fortified camp, or a dungeon full of magical guardians, or something. PCs have good odds against any encounter if it's their only one that day, so don't let the boss fight be that easy to get to. And if they, say, murder the whole dungeon except for the boss then take a nap? Have the villain leave to plan more Evil, targeting them specifically. Because they messed with his stuff, and, again, not stupid.
5. Speaking of which: Smart villains are gold. You can have the main threat be some big dumb creature, but if so, have a 'minion' with some brains. PCs are gonna think tactically at least somewhat, if someone on the other side isn't able to adapt to said tactics and throw them some curveballs, it's gonna be less than thrilling and challenging, as fights go.
I'm sure I've got more but those are what occurs off the top of my head. Other possible good things that don't seem universally necessary include interesting terrain, complications like hostages or a third party getting involved, and social interactions with the villains prior to hostility commencing.
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I really wonder if Orfamay Quest has this problem with every fight, since that's all it boils down to, but with less HP.
Bosses are a time honored trope, and one that I greatly love. They're a great narrative tool to emphasize growth of the players and all that they've accomplished. For me, I like to do the things that Deadman did, and a few more:
1. Boss teams are really fun. Like set up organizations, maybe with one person in the lead, but make sure all the group is important to the narrative. Maybe not directly, but they should all have names the PCs know through the story.
2. Minions so your party doesn't wreck the action economy. Of the things I hate, 4th Ed's concept of minions was golden: Creatures who could hit CR appropriate encounter opponents, but only had 1 HP so they were road blocks that would have a reason to be taken out rather than another Kobold who can't hit except on a 20.
3. Action Economy is so important, so anything you can use to buff your boss's is aces. I use a special "Boss" template myself that lets the boss act on their initiative and then again at their initiative -10 so that they're not getting completely swarmed. My Template also triples their HP and a few other things, but that's not the point.
There's tons of things you can do, and not every boss needs to be a puzzle boss (those can quickly get annoying), but sometimes it's nice to have one that has resistances against everything but one party member to let them shine while some of the others take care of the minion problem.
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One of the best I ever saw was with a boss that was actually APL-1 and minions that were APL-5 (I think).
BUT
There was almost no chance of the PC's surprising the BBEG unless they really worked at it (most PC's don't).
The throne/temple room had traps (pits, spear, energy), obstacles (pews, pool, statues, slick slimy marble stairs), and most importantly...
The hostages the PC's are supposed to rescue. Each of the bad guys was holding a child as a shield. Several were chained to the floor all around the boss. A few were pushed into the pool where their chains would drag them to the bottom.
Most of the minions had minor area attacks like alchemist fire's splash damage.
several minions were dressed like the hostages.
The PC's had to be very careful about what they did and where they moved to keep the hostages alive while still taking on the bad guys. It was pretty amusing.
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I take some offense to your words, since you throw judgement without participating in any of my encounters or offering any questions before tossing insult.
The fight was much quicker than you think. Organization, and skill and multiple DMs helped streamline the fight, much better than large grandiose fights involving a DM and a table of players...
Just as an aside, I wanted to mention that your epic, multi-GM boss fight sounded INCREDIBLE, and very well-managed. Sounds like it was a very memorable session for everybody involved!
I hear Orfamay, and have found some disillusionment with them over the years. One of the things I've tried to do with my boss fights, as a result, is always give the boss a way to beat a hasty retreat.
Well, unfortunately this too has become a cliche; I don't know how many time I've been asked in a computer RPG to fight the bad guy three or four times because "he got away." It also limits the type of "boss" you can have; the Abomnination described above is probably not going to become a recurring NPC.
Gargs454 had some good advice. I would generalize it, though.
What makes a fight -- boss or otherwise -- exciting is the element of novelty and surprise. A novel environment or novel tactics on the part of the bad guy can make things fun and interesting. What makes "boss" battles boring is that they are almost always an attrition grind; this monster has way too many hit points and is immune to all the techniques you've been using so far to win combats in other ways.
I don't mind a CR+3 fight to end an adventure. But why is it always a "boss" -- a single bad-assed monster?
I really wonder if Orfamay Quest has this problem with every fight, since that's all it boils down to, but with less HP.
Nope. But I do have issues with individual fights, boss or otherwise, that drag on past the point where they're fun. And I have problems with campaigns that are nothing but nearly identical fights.
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I don't mind a CR+3 fight to end an adventure. But why is it always a "boss" -- a single bad-assed monster?
Your responses would have been much more productive if you focused on this question, explained why you think the "one boss monster" encounter is uninteresting, and gave Headfirst some thoughtful alternatives.
Instead, you took the cliche'd route of saying "DON'T" rather than giving the OP what he needed. Ugh. Tiresome.
Here's your second chance -- go for it. Tell us what Headfirst should do instead.
OQ, you have a boring DM problem not a boring boss fight problem. There's nothing saying a boss fight is the party fighting one bad assed monster with a ton of HP's and a bunch of immunities other than your/your DM's inability to make it something else.
"Oh, gee, it's a monster with a billion hit points that needs to be ground into a fine powder while doing enormous amounts of damage to everyone in the party."
The points you make are valid, but I can't help but think that it's the system that causes this to become such a problem. Characters build in strength by stacking their relevant abilities, rather than broadening themselves to handle a greater range of challenges.
A boss fight struggles to be anything other than a "longer" fight due to a greater number of HP, because if you don't, it's over too soon to provide any meaningful interaction.
So don't use a boss, which gets back to my first point. You can easily get a suitably epic encounter simply by doubling or tripling the amount of creatures you have to face -- instead of having an orc chieftain with ten thousand hit points you have an orc chieftain and his thirty elite guardsmen.
Or use a novel environment where the boss cannot be overcome by simple attrition. One of the better climax encounters I ran was in a fireworks factory, where half of the encounter was to keep the place from blowing itself up and killing everyone -- e.g., to scale down what the characters would be able to do.
Personally, I tend to DM other systems as a result of this, but when I do run Pathfinder games, I still make use of some of the same tricks
1) Provide an activity during the fight for the "non-combatants" to do.
2) Minons, always include minons,
3) Don't launch straight into the combat, a boss encoutner should provide closure for the plot arc.
These are all good. But why must it be combat at all? Why isn't the activity itself the climax? Grab the idol and run through the maze of eternal peril, dodging the minions who are trying to push you into something stupid/dangerous in the maze.
There's nothing saying a boss fight is the party fighting one bad assed monster with a ton of HP's and a bunch of immunities other than your/your DM's inability to make it something else.
Nothing except a) that's the traditional video game boss monster, and b) that's exactly what necronus' suckadelic boss monster was.
The OP suggested "there's one thing RPGs could learn from video games: how to craft an exciting, dynamic boss fight."
My advice -- do not run a video-game style boss fight. That is, as Cyrad put it, "just some really big guy with area attacks, an insane amount of hitpoints, and immunity to disables. I can't really call the latter an actual fight because it's more of a test of attrition."
This is the worst, most cliche, most boring boss fight imaginable. It is the opposite of exciting and dynamic.
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...
I don't mind a CR+3 fight to end an adventure. But why is it always a "boss" -- a single bad-assed monster?
I have never been under the impression that a boss fight means he is alone. I think they can, should, and usually do (at least when I make them) include minions/guards/golems/traps.
What a boss fight really is is any encounter rigged to be very challenging and have a good chance at fully challenging the group. Sorta like the King Encounter of the dungeon or at least area.
Can it be done with one really tough monster? Well,perhaps but probably not as well as you could with a less tough monster with lots of others to prove support/interference/control and action economy.
I think when he reads boss fight,he thinks of one long slug match between one monster and 4-5 pc's with little tactile involvement other than setting up attacks.
I mean yeah that does sound boring but who designs boss fights like that?
I don't mind a CR+3 fight to end an adventure. But why is it always a "boss" -- a single bad-assed monster?
Your responses would have been much more productive if you focused on this question, explained why you think the "one boss monster" encounter is uninteresting, and gave Headfirst some thoughtful alternatives.
Instead, you took the cliche'd route of saying "DON'T" rather than giving the OP what he needed. Ugh. Tiresome.
Here's your second chance -- go for it. Tell us what Headfirst should do instead.
Headfirst wants to use MMO video games for inspiration for boss fights. That is the worst possible source for inspiration. He should use literally anything else.
And he'll do much better encounter climaxes if he, first, gets the idea of "boss fight" out of his head, and, second, draws on his own sources of inspiration for something novel that hasn't already been discussed in this thread.
I think when he reads boss fight,he thinks of one long slug match between one monster and 4-5 pc's with little tactile involvement other than setting up attacks.
I mean yeah that does sound boring but who designs boss fights like that?
70% of the video game designers since 1995.
And, demonstrably, necronus.
Obviously many people do enjoy them, or they wouldn't keep putting them in those video games that sell like crazy.
Now every idea in the thread is horrible? Even the ones that were agreeing with what you said except the difference in definition of a term?
Who took a crap on your Wheaties this morning?
Obviously many people do enjoy them, or they wouldn't keep putting them in those video games that sell like crazy.
Except that this is a tabletop RPG, not a video game, and so there's no reason to assume that what works in one medium works in another.
Now every idea in the thread is horrible? Even the ones that were agreeing with what you said except the difference in definition of a term?
Nope. But even the ones who agreed with me admitted the best element of a good climax is novelty. And you're much less likely to do something novel if you start by copying what other people in a thread are telling you to do.
I'm just gonna toss in a few Ideas I have used from time to time.
1) I will give my "boss" fights "arenas" with very interesting terrain. I've done Boats being rocked to and fro by colossal monsters, Combat across layers of bridges in elven villages high in the trees, On a frozen over lake with the monster beneath the players.
2) I tend to use characters with semi interesting tactics when I know the party will be drained of resources, or I will occasionally do the fully decked out megamonster, but only if the party is at full power.
3) I will use larger specialized events as boss fights Chases, ship battles, A battle between two armies, A town siege, surviving an avalance, and various things like that.
The basic rules of boss fights are make the encounter important enough that it really feels special, and that its something enjoyable for the dm and the players.
Bah even back in Diablo,when the epic boss fights occurred it was hardly ever one big badguy.
I still remember fighting Diablo with my screen completely full of red nasty demons and having to fight my way to him while chugging potions like mad,killing as many of the little guys as possible and laying into Diablo only for a second or two then having to fastwalk away to the town portal to heal up and restock!
Then head back to find out Diablo had moved off and had summoned craploads of new demon different minions!
Oh how I still hate thee Diablo! With my last breath I spit at thee!
The best advice I can give for boss fights is to chuck the Pathfinder encounter building guidelines put of the window and stretch things a bit.
A single APL+3 badguy,two APL+1 lieutenants,four APL-3 minion types with a few terrain choices and perhaps even a well placed trap works wonders.
My guys will still win such a encounter pretty handily unless the dice gods betray them but it will at least be fun and interesting.
I think the guidelines are GREAT for new DM's and DM's with unknown quantities for PC's though. It's a great place to start,it just isn't the Iron Rule many think it to be.
20 friggin players? Good Lord! I have not seen such a spectacle since my Classic D&D days in middle school in the 70's/80's.
Heck even then I think I thought a dozen players too many.
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I think the best thing to take from what Orfamay Quest is saying is that climatic encounters don't have to be bosses. They can be anything as long as it fits the narrative structure. Bosses are fun though, they can give closure as much as a lot of other things, and they're tropes for a reason: most often bosses like this are longstanding grudges and rivalries that need to be ended for closure's sake. You can run anything to end off a story thread, bosses being particularly useful, and there's a lot of useful information on this thread for keeping your boss from being a 2 round disappointment.
I myself consider normal combat to last 2-4 rounds, so I like my bosses to last 4-7, even if that drags for a lot of people. Illusions are a great way of keeping things going if you're before when everyone has True Seeing, contingent summons/callings also extend the life of battle. I'm iffy on villains escaping after what felt like a victory, but remember for villains death isn't the end. There's plenty of ways to bring someone back as long as you still have their soul (or even better, a body), and the wizard you fought coming back as a lich makes for one hell of a round two.
Hmm... I've been experimenting with different approaches to stuff in my campaign.
I've sort of settled on sprinkling in 'Elite' creatures into numerous encounters, and 'Boss' encounters aren't typically against one big creature, but at least one of the creatures present are typically powerful and unique.
Elite creatures are typically named NPCs usually on par with the PCs or more powerful if appropriate, named advanced monsters or named unique homebrew monsters. Each with maxed HP for their HD, (the PCs have max hp by default, just what I'm used to, I guess).
Boss creatures are the same, but with more power, additional abilities or some other unique advantage (like environmental advantage or some form of control over the battlefield).
There's a lot you can do to make stuff interesting.
Orfamay Quest
You are overly opinionated in things you have no first hand knowledge.
Once you run a campaign for over 20 players, than I will start respecting your opinion.
That would have been in 1986. An all-paladin campaign, based largely on Arthurian legend, for the local RPG club. Five sub-GMs.
@necronus
Just so we're clear, I said I always give them a way to beat a hasty retreat. I did not say I always make them use it. I try to use the "hasty exit" only often enough that it prevents the players from thinking the outcome of every big fight is eventually their death or the bad-guy's.
I also sometimes have the "boss" surrender and ask to be taken to justice, instead of outright killed.
Also, much like Orfamay, I hate the one monster/NPC final encounter, and have never used it. Many people have mentioned that as a flaw. I see it that way too.
I guess for my own personal campaigns, all my "boss" type fights end up being with recurring NPCs and their minions. Sometimes the PCs win, sometimes they retreat, sometimes the NPC runs away, sometimes they surrender, and sometimes, just sometimes, they get turned into a sticky puddle of plasma on the dungeon floor.
I try to play every encounter, no matter the situation, with a fair amount of thought to what a character or monster would actually do in that situation, not just have them fight a losing battle until they die. Every creature has a survival instinct, and particularly powerful creatures tend to have plenty of significant reasons to live.
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These are some great ideas, guys!
My favorite boss fight tactics are the ones that make the players constantly reconsider their tactics. For example:
A giant with a huge club that tries to smash the players as they cross a stone bridge. Every time he misses, his tremendous club bashes a 5' hole in the 15' wide bridge and the target needs to make a reflex save to jump to another square, else they're stuck hanging in the hole and need to make a good climb check or get helped out. If he ever smashes holes all the way across its width, the longer side of the bridge collapses.
This sort of thing keeps the players moving, and if they're clever, they can even use the giant's rage to their advantage, tricking him into collapsing the side of the bridge he's on by using careful positioning and full defense.
Thoughts?
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Kinda boring: Evil wizard stands in front of princess cackling madly. Party fights wizard and his summoned minions. Wizard dies or beats hasty retreat when he gets beat up.
Kinda awesome: Evil wizard sees party. Evil wizard magically tosses princess across room at big flamey magic rune and runs away. Party acrobat does amazing Acrobatics check to catch princess--or paladin runs and pushes her to safety, taking the hit instead--but wizard might get away while the party is distracted.
Saving the princess should be the exciting part, not killing the wizard.
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I've yet to use this, but an idea I've had for the iconic solo monster:
Simple Template: Elite (CR +2)
Creatures with the Elite simple template are meant to be fought alone, though this is not always the case. Sometimes they are encountered alongside weaker, subservient creatures, but this is the exception.
Rebuild Rules: An elite creature gains all the benefits of the Advanced simple template, plus the following.
- Hit Points: An elite creature has ×4 as many hit points as normal.
- Defensive Abilities: An elite creature with 4 or less HD gains DR 5/—. If it possesses 5–10 HD, an elite creature's DR increases to 10; an elite creature with 11 or more HD increases it's DR to 15. In addition, an elite creature is immune to death effects, energy drain, and ability damage; charm and compulsion effects; and any affect that would render it unable to act normally (daze, stun, etc.).
- Special Qualities: An elite creature gains the following ability.
Dual Initiative (Ex): An elite creature gets two turns each round, one on its initiative count and another on its initiative count – 20. For example, if the creature's initiative is 23, for its first turn it could make a full attack (and take a 5 foot step) at initiative 23, and for its second turn at initiative 3 it could take a move action and cast a spell. This allows the creature to perform two actions per round that normally take an entire round, such as using a summon monster spell. For the purposes of spells and effects that have a duration of a round or longer or trigger at the beginning of the creature's round or the start of its turn such as saving throws against ongoing effects or taking bleed damage), only the creature's first turn each round counts toward such durations.