Have you ever played a game with no full casters? Notice any differences?

[SmiloDan]

I made some NPC half-orc scarred witchdoctor witches, and they have hit points comparable to some tanks of their level that I made. Makes me want to make a melee witch, actually.

[OgreBattle]

SmiloDan wrote:

I made some NPC half-orc scarred witchdoctor witches, and they have hit points comparable to some tanks of their level that I made. Makes me want to make a melee witch, actually.

I've been keen to try out a close combat Witch that vomits spiders/bees on people

[andreww]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Also found party has less issues in a grapple. They have melee options, class abilities and lower level spells so easier concentration checks.

Even a still/silent/eschew materials quickened spell needs an impossible check for any caster ..

Grappled or pinned while casting = 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level

At low levels the all caster party simply chain Liberating Commands each other out or helps out with grease. At mid levels they are more likely to by flying or invisible or have freedom of movement available. At high levels they are all wearing rings of freedom of movement so grapple becomes irrelevant.

[Gluttony]

I've seen a party of four with a Ninja, Bard/Dragon Disciple, Magus, and Alchemist that worked out pretty well in the past. Lots of group stealth and assassination-style play, and at higher levels they really had to work hard and coordinate to go up against opponents with proper spellcasters (and proper melee fighters, for that matter).

It was fun, though. I was the Bard/Dragon Disciple.

[Ciaran Barnes]

I find the all-melee brawls exciting, and its fun working out problems we usually just throw magic at. However, some of them can really drag out and all-melee eventually gets as boring as all magic.

[SmiloDan]

My alchemist, gunslinger, inquisitor party just got to level 3. It's fun. They have some magic, and lots of special abilities, but they also melee a lot. The gunslinger is a newbie, so he tries all sorts of fun things, like stealing and riding the BBEG cavalier's horse companion. In a castle.

I also like the slow spellcasting progression because it kind of slows down the power level a little bit. They get to enjoy their class abilities and not just nova their high level spells. I'm also having fun making NPCs with actual NPC class levels, oddly enough.

[insaneogeddon]

andreww wrote:

insaneogeddon wrote:

Also found party has less issues in a grapple. They have melee options, class abilities and lower level spells so easier concentration checks.

Even a still/silent/eschew materials quickened spell needs an impossible check for any caster ..

Grappled or pinned while casting = 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level

At low levels the all caster party simply chain Liberating Commands each other out or helps out with grease. At mid levels they are more likely to by flying or invisible or have freedom of movement available. At high levels they are all wearing rings of freedom of movement so grapple becomes irrelevant.

Both are still escape artist checks so liberating command is very unlikely to succeed.

It assumes you have more than one caster.
It assumes they all take the spell.
It assumes your in short range.
It assumes you have many memorised or have spare spells left.
It assumes only 1 tries to grapple you a round
It assumes they can cast freely as well.. and as there are more npcs than pcs thats VERY unlikely unless their all untrained and retarded.

20 scattered goblins that keep trying to mob casters... thats alot of spells!!! say 4 casters that's 5 grapple checks each a round,pretty sure even if have spells and can cast will run out.

Never mind as they have good stealth and dark vision and considering their ecology they likely attack at night - noway every ones awake and unlikely at any level you can match their stealth with your perception as size and dex bonus (assuming you even have dark vision).

If its one boss - your not escaping with those checks with a slight liberating command bonus.

Yeah no issues when you can all afford freedom of movement rings but at 40,000 a pop your not getting those till last 1/3 of the game (assuming you play to 20th ...and last that long !).If your DM ignores wealth limits they likely don't don't play opponents to their training or intellect either so not worth the cost if your being led on a path of roses to 'win'.

[Tacticslion]

I'm actually playing my second or third ever game without full casters now - and in all cases (including this one), there have been enough "half" casters or similar to make it a non-issue. Also, the others I've run were different by default - they were mostly either social or stealth-and-strike based.

So far (within the first few levels) I've not noticed too much of a difference. It seems like the difference will be more weighted toward the later levels, though.

[Azrael3886]

I will be GM for a RotR game of 5 players on a 15pt ability buy. SO far I think we might have:

Alchemist(Vivisectionist)
Magus
Bard (Archeologist)
Warpriest

Should we be ok without a full caster?

What about healing? Three of those spell lists have healing spells.

Does anyone have input on what might be an ideal 5th player's class?

[K177Y C47]

Azrael3886 wrote:

I will be GM for a RotR game of 5 players on a 15pt ability buy. SO far I think we might have:

Alchemist(Vivisectionist)
Magus
Bard (Archeologist)
Warpriest

Should we be ok without a full caster?

What about healing? Three of those spell lists have healing spells.

Does anyone have input on what might be an ideal 5th player's class?

Oracle? Would be interesting interaction with the Oracle and the Warpriest. Or a cleric...

[Michael Sayre]

We've actually run quite a few games without full casters (or if we did have full casters, they were pretend ones like oracle/barbarian Rage Prophets). It's never really been a big deal for any group we've run, and if anything, a party with a bard, inquisitor, gunslinger, magus and cavalier seems to run even more smoothly than a "classic" group including a pair of full casters.

[Mordo the Spaz - Forum Troll]

Me GM group now, PCs four Vivisectionist Alchemists. Players wanted lots positional battle-map combat.

Work great so far. Fun fun.

Players great guys. Three Barbarians. Fourth our tribe's Cleric.

No full caster usually mean all Barbarians. Maybe Player Fighter or Ranger. Those games always problems. Need one Player decent INT or WIS. Me stop GM games without a full caster.

[SmiloDan]

K177Y C47 wrote:

Azrael3886 wrote:

I will be GM for a RotR game of 5 players on a 15pt ability buy. SO far I think we might have:

Alchemist(Vivisectionist)
Magus
Bard (Archeologist)
Warpriest

Should we be ok without a full caster?

What about healing? Three of those spell lists have healing spells.

Does anyone have input on what might be an ideal 5th player's class?

Oracle? Would be interesting interaction with the Oracle and the Warpriest. Or a cleric...

Ranger? Paladin? Druid?

[Majuba]

I played through the whole Council of Thieves AP with a Paladin (Bard1), Bard7/PF Chronicler (no more spell progression), and a Monk (and halfway through a Ranger).

Didn't have any major issues at all. It was nice to all have semi-decent stealth scores.