So I have a group of levels 1s and 2s going after a BBEG in a dungeon. Decided this particular gentlemen would have 2 class levels in Magus. Decided to give him another 2 class levels in Ninja. Looking at spell strike I decided to give him Shocking Grasp, and to be mean I gave him a Keen Rapier. Decided to throw on Vanishing Trick, Magical Knack, Reactionary and Combat Reflexes. After deciding I am dealing with min-maxers after all, I this particular bloke was cursed with rock troll blood. He cannot go above ground or he'll be petrified by sunlight. In exchange he has regen 5 except 5 except vs sonic.
Is this going too far? Seems if he crits he can be looking 1d6 sneak attack damage, 2d6 rapier damage and critical from shocking grasp (8d6). Is this too much to throw at level 1s? Template also gives him +4 natural armor, and he's running around with a wand of shield. Effectively 25AC if he fights on his terms.
Edit: As some might guess, this guy is based on Dalsine from the Dalsine Affair.
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What do you think Admiral?
Is it too much? I suppose that depends on if you want a TPK or not. Most likely, this NPC will 1-hit-kill any PC he hits, while they'll likely have little to no chance of defeating his regeneration.
In addition, the weapon alone more than triples the wealth a 4th-level NPC should have (2,400gp).
Are wrote: Is it too much? I suppose that depends on if you want a TPK or not. Most likely, this NPC will 1-hit-kill any PC he hits, while they'll likely have little to no chance of defeating his regeneration.
In addition, the weapon alone more than triples the wealth a 4th-level NPC should have (2,400gp).
The keen effect comes from Arcane Pool :-P
bob_the_monster wrote: So I have a group of levels 1s and 2s going after a BBEG in a dungeon. Decided this particular gentlemen would have 2 class levels in Magus. Decided to give him another 2 class levels in Ninja. Looking at spell strike I decided to give him Shocking Grasp, and to be mean I gave him a Keen Rapier. Decided to throw on Vanishing Trick, Magical Knack, Reactionary and Combat Reflexes. After deciding I am dealing with min-maxers after all, I this particular bloke was cursed with rock troll blood. He cannot go above ground or he'll be petrified by sunlight. In exchange he has regen 5 except 5 except vs sonic.
Is this going too far? Seems if he crits he can be looking 1d6 sneak attack damage, 2d6 rapier damage and critical from shocking grasp (8d6). Is this too much to throw at level 1s? Template also gives him +4 natural armor, and he's running around with a wand of shield. Effectively 25AC if he fights on his terms.
Edit: As some might guess, this guy is based on Dalsine from the Dalsine Affair.
Hmm let's see Lvl 2 Raging Barbarian(with 18 starting strength and Greatsword) hits for +7(2d6+11) with Power Attack. He would need to roll 18+ to hit your boss. The Barbarian hits 10% of the time.
Most characters will have much lower to hit boni. Dude regains 5HP per round unless they get some sonic damage(highly unlikely).
Without the crit he'll hit for 6d6+Str/Dex(21+X), which is likely enough to knock out all lvl 1 characters and maybe even a lvl 2 Barbarian with Con 16(24HP assuming average per HD).
Most characters will go down in one round against this guy, while having really low chances to hit.
Unless the characters go for his CMD or his saves are pretty low, they should go down before he does.
Yeah. That's TPK territory. Especially the unbeatable (at this level) regeneration. So don't do it.
Decided to nerf his regeneration and AC a bit. Seems most trolls can have sonic or acid stop their regen. As for the massive damage he can only do that twice a day, since he doesn't have too many level 1 spells. If a party of 5-6 min maxers doesn't take an acid spell or acid flask, then shame on them. A barbarian can just as easily one-hit kill most people on a critical hit.
It is lvl 1, any individual enemy of CR greater than 2 is asking for a TPK.
No one can min-max lvl 1-2 character to impressive results.
Keep your big guns for higher lvls (5-6+).
The module I'm running already does that, plus I've seen plenty of PF:S modules where the end villain is CR 3 against a group of levels 1st characters...
Add to that can't a level 1 Barb theoretically crit for like 4d6 + 20 damage or something. Sorry, I don't buy that "CR 3 = TPK" :-P Besides can't players like manacle or cut off the limbs of unconscious characters with regeneration? Sorry to say I don't buy that the guy is unbeatable..
taldanrebel2187 wrote: The module I'm running already does that, plus I've seen plenty of PF:S modules where the end villain is CR 3 against a group of levels 1st characters...
Add to that can't a level 1 Barb theoretically crit for like 4d6 + 20 damage or something. Sorry, I don't buy that "CR 3 = TPK" :-P Besides can't players like manacle or cut off the limbs of unconscious characters with regeneration? Sorry to say I don't buy that the guy is unbeatable..
Low lvl fighting is incredibly random.
A tough fight involving one big enemy will prove nothing other than their inevitable mechanical inferiority.
Deadmanwalking wrote: Yeah. That's TPK territory. Especially the unbeatable (at this level) regeneration. So don't do it. Deadmanwalking is right. At 1st level above-CR encounters tend to be really deadly in any right. This one is just on the 'roids.
This is, in fact, the definition of overpowered.
Hmm...I wonder if something that has a 25% chance of dealing over twice the normal HP of level one characters on an AVERAGE hit, that may as well be only hit on a nat 20 (and can regenerate most of any damage taken), is overpowered?
NPCs dont usually get traits, so you basically gave him a bonus feat too. Im not saying to make an easy encounter, but a crit dependant bad guy like that will probably be very unsatisfying whichever way the combat goes.
The wand of Shield kind of puts it over the top. Without that, his AC drops to the point where he's hittable. Get rid of that and Magical Knack and things look a lot more reasonable -- he's now only doing 3d6, or 4d6 on SA. That's enough to drop most 1L PCs, but not likely to kill them unless he crits. And he's a boss. Crits from a boss should be something to fear.
Also: I assume you're giving him Weapon Finesse, or some such? Because his BAB is only +2, which is no great shakes.
Doug M.
It's a TPK as written unless the PCs can lure him into sunlight somehow.
If you are trying to recreate the rock troll scene from the Hobbit, ok, but it's a little hackneyed. If you are just trying to kill your PCs, mission accomplished.
So the guy's CR is -
3 for 4 PC Class Levels
1 for extreme wealth (2320 for the +1 rapier and 750 for the wand)
1 for troll blood (A regular troll is CR 5 and a rock troll is CR6, since this isn't listed as a template no it's own I'm just going to use the difference)
So his base CR is 5 if they meet on a even playing field, you said you expect him to get a sneak attack so you're planning on having him fight from advantage which is arguably another 1 since you're going to have to either strip the PC's of defenses or set up the terrain to favor this guy. CR 5/6 isn't something you should be throwing at APL 1/2. His regen should be Acid or Sonic like the rock troll since a level 1 party with a wizard can deal with that, but his raw stat advantage would make it a no go. The caveat to this would be if the party is aware that he's got stone troll blood and you're going to put a way to exploit his sunlight petrification into the encounter. Then you get a kinda neat encounter with this super strong bad guy taunting the party and ultimately succumbing to hubris.
A magus, especially in low levels, has extreme TPK potential. Especially if you use basic tactical understanding.
For high level parties:
Noble Drow / Magus / Cleric / Mystic Theurge ;)
btw, to add keen he has to be magus 5th level
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: The wand of Shield kind of puts it over the top. Without that, his AC drops to the point where he's hittable. Get rid of that and Magical Knack and things look a lot more reasonable -- he's now only doing 3d6, or 4d6 on SA. That's enough to drop most 1L PCs, but not likely to kill them unless he crits. And he's a boss. Crits from a boss should be something to fear.
Also: I assume you're giving him Weapon Finesse, or some such? Because his BAB is only +2, which is no great shakes.
Doug M.
His BaB could be +3 if one uses fractions (3/4 time 4)
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3 for 4 PC Class Levels
1 for extreme wealth (2320 for the +1 rapier and 750 for the wand)
1 for troll blood
Yeah, good points. Giving an NPC PC wealth adds +1 CR. Note that if he has a mere masterwork rapier, he can't keenify it, so the crit thing becomes less of an issue.
Quote:
So his base CR is 5 if they meet on a even playing field, you said you expect him to get a sneak attack so you're planning on having him fight from advantage which is arguably another 1 since you're going to have to either strip the PC's of defenses or set up the terrain to favor this guy.
Well, if he's getting SA because of stuff intrinsic to his character (invested lots of ranks in Stealth) then that doesn't increase the CR -- he's been built that way, and if he's investing in Stealth he's not investing in something else. If he's getting SA because you set up the encounter so he gets SA, then that's different, and increasing the CR may be appropriate. Ninjas are supposed to be stealthy, and a d6 or two on SAs with a rapier is no big deal compared to the damage a fighter or barb can do. So unless things are deliberately set up so that he can get SA after SA, I wouldn't say that increases the CR.
Quote:
The caveat to this would be if the party is aware that he's got stone troll blood and you're going to put a way to exploit his sunlight petrification into the encounter. Then you get a kinda neat encounter with this super strong bad guy taunting the party and ultimately succumbing to hubris.
That could work, but it's a crapshoot. If you make the exploit on his sunlight vulnerability obvious, then he's a dope for falling to it. If it's not obvious, the PCs may miss it.
Quote:
His BaB could be +3 if one uses fractions (3/4 time 4)
Perhaps so, but that's not how it works in RAW.
-- Honestly, if the party has a couple of good damage-dealers, I think the regeneration is secondary. Just drop the traits, especially Magical Knack (NPCs don't normally get traits anyway) and give him normal NPC wealth (masterwork rapier, no wand). That should do it. He might kill a PC or two, but he's a boss; stuff happens. They should still be able to take him down.
Doug M.
bob_the_monster wrote: Are wrote: Is it too much? I suppose that depends on if you want a TPK or not. Most likely, this NPC will 1-hit-kill any PC he hits, while they'll likely have little to no chance of defeating his regeneration.
In addition, the weapon alone more than triples the wealth a 4th-level NPC should have (2,400gp).
The keen effect comes from Arcane Pool :-P You might want to double check how Arcane Pool works. At level 1 you can increase/add a +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon. You need 5 Magus levels if you want to be able to add Keen, Flaming, etc to it. So your NPC shouldn't be able to make his Rapier Keen with only 2 levels of Magus.
Thanks for the feedback guys :) Gonna tone down this villain a bit.
Won't his will and for save be something like plus two? he loses to color spray
CWheezy wrote: Won't his will and for save be something like plus two? he loses to color spray Nope, he is blinded and stunned for a few rounds, but with that regeneration it's a minor setback. Best case scenario is that that he gets blinded and stunned, then instead of attacking you grapple him while stunned and tie him up. Then you can drag him into the sun.
If he loses regeneration to acid and sonic and not just sonic, he would be a great fight against level 2 characters, at level 1 you simply don't have the HP to survive.
Also, I really, really recommend not messing with what overcomes regeneration. We had a fight turn from mooks into unkillable hell because of the DM switching it from fire and acid to electricity and cold. Between a cavalier, a monk, a ninja, an inquisitor, a bard and a witch we simply did not have a single electricity or cold effect at level 4, even though we would have rolled over them if a simple acid splash would have worked.
Can anyone in the party even deal sonic damages?
Belle Mythix wrote: Can anyone in the party even deal sonic damages?
I am very confident it was picked precisely because of that fact.
Imbicatus wrote: CWheezy wrote: Won't his will and for save be something like plus two? he loses to color spray Nope, he is blinded and stunned for a few rounds, but with that regeneration it's a minor setback. Best case scenario is that that he gets blinded and stunned, then instead of attacking you grapple him while stunned and tie him up. Then you can drag him into the sun. Does regen prevent a coup de grace? Losing a few rounds could be enough to destroy him for good. Also there's always the prospect of a second color spray.
1) Rocks Fall, Everyone Die.
2) Take time to learn the rules.
3) Set rules, guidelines, etc...
4) ????
5) Profits.
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