Ok, I have a Catfolk Monk with Claw Attacks. He has Feral Combat Training which states:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
There was a FAQ post also saying that you would use the unarmed damage in place of the natural attack damage.
If you then take Improved Natural Attack it would improve the damage of said attack. I understand that INA says it does not work for Unarmed Strikes, but in the case above you are not making an Unarmed Strike, you are making a Claw attack. In the case above if your UAS was 1d8, it would make the Claw attack 1d8 and then INA would make it 2d6, correct?
Yes. INA would change a 1d8 normal damage of a natural attack (improved from feral combat training, with levels of monk) into a 2d8 attack.
These two feats do not limit each other in any way.
INA improves a natural attack. (changes the size of the weapon)
FCT improves a natural attack. (with levels of monk, changes the base damage of the weapon)
Neither say that you cannot apply the other.
Neither apply the "same bonus".When you make an Unarmed Strike, it's a D8.
When you make a Claw attack, it's 2d6.
When you flurry, you can use either.
Hey Dash i know you were rigth last time;)
But i must admit i belive the FAQ ruling is staying that i Can exchange my natural attack damage for my monk unarmed damage. And INA modify natural attack and feral combat training seems to be a one Way benefit.From unarmed to natural not the other Way.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You aren't exchanging claw damage with monk damage.
You are modifying your claw damage, the same way a monk does.
That's important to realize.
You modify the natural attack once, then again differently.
There is no swap being done.
There really is no tie to UAS at all.
Avoron, I totally agree with you. That's how I've always seen it. Things can alter your base natural and/or unarmed damage but they are separate damage totals. Pick whichever one you want.
This is JUST like spiked shields and sacred weapon. I don't see spikes upping the sacred weapon damage as it's only changing the base weapon damage.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The FAQ that was answered was "Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?"
And the answer was yes.
I agree with your reading of the rules (your version of RAW) in this thread.
But I don't like that FAQ because I think it isn't clear enough which question they are answering. I've seen it used as confirmation of questions that are not what I see when I read that Question in the FAQ.
|
This sentence, I think, is the real issue:
"her Claw Damage becomes 1d8 just like her unarmed strike does"I don't think that this is supported in the rules. The FAQ that was answered was "Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?"
And the answer was yes.So it's still your unarmed damage that you're dealing, you can just deal it when you hit with your natural attack. It doesn't become your "claw damage," or else the FAQ would say so.
It isn't your unarmed damage, it is the <insert natural attack here> dmg.
Lets look at the feat:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
This does not say you are using unarmed dmg it says: "When using the selected natural weapon
Now lets look at the FAQ:
Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such.
Nowhere does it state or even imply that you are using your unarmed damage, it says you apply "the effects". The FAQ is just to clarify that in addition to the things listed on the feat you also get to add the dmg "effect" from your unarmed strike when you deal claw damage. As was stated above you are modifying your claw dmg from 2 different sources.
Spaarky, the chart you look at is unarmed damage values. The ability that is used states a monk "deals more damage with his unarmed strikes". I'd say that nowhere does it imply that you AREN'T using your unarmed damage because that's all the chart is giving you. Even the part you quoted stated "Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage". Yes, you are using the "monk unarmed damage" and NOT the natural attack damage.
|
|
The FAQ Specifically states that you "apply the effects", not that you use your "unarmed damage in place of". Even the feat states that you "apply the effects to your natural attack" not that you use your unarmed damage for your natural attack, so you are still making a natural attack and not an unarmed attack, you keep misquoting and misrepresenting them in your argument. Your logic about the chart you look at makes no sense in this context. Maybe you were not around for the second faq, but the entire reason that FAQ was put there was because people were stating that the enhanced damage from the unarmed attack would not be applied on the natural attack damage with the feat.
The FAQ states "Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?" the answer is "yes". It states right there use unarmed damage. Effect = unarmed damage in place of. That's what they say.
All you have to ask is does an affect work on your "increased unarmed damage", the effect, or the base natural weapon, what the effect is on.
Scott, please look at some of the new classes. For instance the brawler for intent and how replacing damage works.
Close Weapon Mastery:
"When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon"
"The brawler can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage"
INA would be like picking up a large dagger, changing the weapons base damage and not altering the "adjusted unarmed strike damage".
Warpriest's Sacred Weapon:
"The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made."
Again, small, medium or large dagger only alters the weapon's base damage. It doesn't touch the "sacred weapon damage". They are two different totals that you get to pick from; your natural weapon OR your other and effects that alter one ONLY effect that one total.
I believe I'm with graystone here. You always have two possible values with these abilities - the weapon's own value or the substituted value.
A monk with a natural weapon and FCT gets either the natural weapon damage or the UAS damage. Improved Natural Attack increases the natural weapon damage. The monk still chooses between the natural weapon's damage (now one step higher) or the UAS damage. INA doesn't change the UAS damage. You pick the higher option.
Unless and until we get some clarification, this is most sensible solution to me.
Scott, please look at some of the new classes. For instance the brawler for intent and how replacing damage works.
Of course, the inevitable counter-argument is that you're citing different abilities with different wording/rules interaction.
Scott, please look at some of the new classes. For instance the brawler for intent and how replacing damage works.Of course, the inevitable counter-argument is that you're citing different abilities with different wording/rules interaction.
He was citing intent. Showing two other abilities that do the exact same thing (replace your normal weapon damage with damage from a chart) shows some strong intent against his point of view. Plus if INA and FCT worked together, they'd do more damage than a normal monk. I don't see that as their intent.
The thing is, any medium creature with a natural weapon attack would have the same damage with FCT as long as the unarmed damage is higher. For instance if a medium person with the trait Mother's Teeth would have a bite of 1d2. Another is a Wyvarans with Slapping Tail 1d8. Now if both are 8th level monks, they can go with the unarmed damage of 1d10 instead. So why would changing the bite damage to 1d3 (INA) do anything to the unarmed damage when the higher d8 damage from the other character does nothing?
INA is a one time choice of increasing your natural attack and FCT is an damage option on every attack to use one damage or the other. FCT isn't a permanent change to the damage like INA is. INA isn't some effect you can just toss on to whatever damage you end up with. It isn't a spell, it's your natural weapons getting bigger and that has no effect on your unarmed damage.
EDIT: And a different reason this doesn't work is the feat INA. It doesn't work on an unarmed strike. FCT allows unarmed strike weapon effects to work on natural weapons, it never says it allows natural weapon effects to work on unarmed strikes or their effects. So FCT allows replacing with unarmed strike damage but doesn't allow that effect to be modified by an incompatible feat.
So if you take Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), that feat would apply to both unarmed strikes and whatever natural attack you selected with feral combat training
If only that was possible:)
But the feat use the words "Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike)" i think that is pretty clear.
Covert Operator
FAQ states:
"Feral Combat Training and Unarmed Strike Damage: Does this allow me to use my monk unarmed damage with the selected natural attack?
Yes. The feat says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike," and the monk's increased unarmed damage counts as such."
To me the only way to read that is the monk chart is a replacement just like the brawler/warpriest does with there increased damage features. Also remember that FCT says you "CAN apply" effects, so it's not treated exactly like the monk ability (which IS a permanent bonus for monks, like INA is to natural attacks). Hence the option to replace natural attack damage with unarmed damage.
Plus if INA and FCT worked together, they'd do more damage than a normal monk. I don't see that as their intent.
A character who spends two feats on increasing their damage is better at dealing damage than one who doesn't? The horror! THE HORROR!
Plus if INA and FCT worked together, they'd do more damage than a normal monk. I don't see that as their intent.A character who spends two feats on increasing their damage is better at dealing damage than one who doesn't? The horror! THE HORROR!
When that damage upgrade isn't available to the base unarmed character? Yes, yes it is. It doesn't make the least bit of sense that to increase your unarmed damage you have to get a bigger natural weapon when it's proven that the size of your natural weapon doesn't alter your unarmed damage. It's the game itself that says "The horror! THE HORROR!" when they felt that INA shouldn't be a viable option for unarmed strikes.
Both a 1d4 natural weapon and a d8 natural weapon doesn't affect the damage from someone with FCT and an unarmed damage of a d10. AGAIN, why would changing that 1d4 to a 1d6 up your unarmed damage when the higher d8 doesn't?
Again, I can't see INA + FCT as the intent. If you do, fine, but I can't see agreeing with you.
Covert Operator: So you say it's not a replacement. What is it then? You can use your natural weapon damage or do what? You aren't increasing your damage or your base damage would matter. So what do you think it does do if not replace?
Ah yes. That is a bit embarrassing.
Still, I agree that it is debatable whether INA works. I think it does.
It never says ANYWHERE that the damage in Table: Monk is a replacement. It simply states:
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk.It also specifically states the amount of damage a Large monk does, so your argument against Enlarge Person is completely unfounded
Also, Scott is refusing to listen to a dev when they say that it works this way, and contradicting him, for the simple reason that it isn't an official FAQ or is written anywhere in the rules. The devs commonly use messageboard posts to clear up niche questions that aren't broad enough to warrant a FAQ entry. This is a question to which that description applies, so that is the method through which the dev answered.
I might be wrong in this because I have not actually read the dev post (can't find it, haven't looked for it), but this is the way paizo answers questions in general.
I think if you reread what Scott is saying you will find that he and you are on the same side in this one, since it seems like you belive that the two feats work togeather.
When that damage upgrade isn't available to the base unarmed character? Yes, yes it is.Plus if INA and FCT worked together, they'd do more damage than a normal monk. I don't see that as their intent.A character who spends two feats on increasing their damage is better at dealing damage than one who doesn't? The horror! THE HORROR!
Yeah. God forbid different character builds should actually have different options open to them, or varied advantages and disadvantages.
Monk Unarmed Strike increases your unarmed damage to whatever is shown on the table.
This is because the base weapon affects the damage with the base monk. This is proven by the different charts based on your base unarmed damage (size). This isn't the case with FCT as the base weapon doesn't change the chart and at that point it becomes a replacement instead of a simple increase.
FCT with MUS increases your natural attack damage to whatever is shown on the table.
That's what a replacement is... A change the total to a set number no matter what the starting number was... In fact you have the option to DECREASE your damage to your unarmed damage if it's lower. So it's at this step things stop.
Improved Natural Attack increases your damage to whatever the next step up is.
It alters your damage at the time the feat is taken. It can't alter damage you don't have and at the time of the feat you don't have the optional replacement damage on the weapon since you only have that damage for the natural attack during an attack.
I am fairly sure that you are allowed to apply affects in any order you want, so I choose to apply the effect of the MUS increase before I apply the effect of the INA increase
You HAVE to make your permanent alteration first. Unarmed damage is a replacement you can do at the time of the attack. INA is an effect that takes place at the time you take the feat. You don't get an option when and where you add it. "Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step". You base damage goes up right then and there. The issue is that the option to do unarmed damage isn't always on. It doesn't alter your natural weapons actual damage. When you gain INA are you attacking something? If not, how is it an option for a permanent change?
Yeah. God forbid different character builds should actually have different options open to them, or varied advantages and disadvantages.When that damage upgrade isn't available to the base unarmed character? Yes, yes it is.Plus if INA and FCT worked together, they'd do more damage than a normal monk. I don't see that as their intent.A character who spends two feats on increasing their damage is better at dealing damage than one who doesn't? The horror! THE HORROR!
Different vs clearly better. FCT already has the option for different damage types to bypass DR and non-hand options. It also has be benefit of various other racial options and feats(like rending claw or claw pounce. Does it need to be even better? Where are the disadvantages? I'm only seeing a pure upgrade for FCT.
FCT isn't a feat tax, so lets look at INA. I'm not seeing a reason the FCT person should gain even more benefits over the normal monk as the FCT monk is clearly already ahead of the normal monk.
I'm all for "different character builds [having] different options open to them, or varied advantages and disadvantages." It's isn't the case here though. It's the clearly advantaged wanting more of an advantage...
OK if you have to apply the permanent effect first your argument stands in that respect.
If that true though: INA increases damage based on effective size, so your NA counts as one size larger, so you would use the Damage table for a large monk, right?
It increases your natural weapon dice only. Your unarmed damage isn't that. You are allowed to replace your natural weapon damage (which IS increased with INA) with your unarmed damage (modified with effects that can effect unarmed attacks.) For example, Stonefist Gloves will up your unarmed damage but do nothing for your base natural weapon damage. If you have these and FCT, THAT increase transfers over to your natural weapon attack when you opt to use the unarmed damage replacement.
Permanent effect first: That how I've always seen it, you pick the attack and immediately modify the base damage dice. I've never seen an increase in base damage ever modifying a replacement value. Really this would be a different debate if the monk chart gave out size increases instead of giving a total. THEN I'd totally agree that they'd add stack since it wouldn't be a replacement, just a modifier on the base attack.
I think a better way would be instead of thinking of it as permanent effect first, think instead of dice modifiers first then replacement.
Why would an ability that supplants damage dice have any impact on enhancement bonuses?
Is there actually some question that Enlarge Person wouldn't increase US damage? Why wouldn't it? By extension it would increase your natural weapon damage via FCT, as well as increasing your weapon's damage just by being a size larger. This has no bearing on whether INA stacks with FCT and Monk US damage.
INA affects one weapon. Enlarge affects a character. That Enlarge carries over does not mean that INA then needs to apply as well after substituting your US damage for your natural weapon.
Different vs clearly better. FCT already has the option for different damage types to bypass DR and non-hand options. It also has be benefit of various other racial options and feats(like rending claw or claw pounce. Does it need to be even better? Where are the disadvantages? I'm only seeing a pure upgrade for FCT.
FCT isn't a feat tax, so lets look at INA. I'm not seeing a reason the FCT person should gain even more benefits over the normal monk as the FCT monk is clearly already ahead of the normal monk.
I'm all for "different character builds [having] different options open to them, or varied advantages and disadvantages." It's isn't the case here though. It's the clearly advantaged wanting more of an advantage...
Alright, let's look at the two big downsides that come to mind.
1: Limited Race Selection
Not every race gets natural weapons. Out of the CRB races the half-orc is your only choice. Without a racial natural weapon you'll either need to have a class ability granting one (requires multiclassing, which'll drag down those monk damage dice), use a magic item, or dump a feats into racial heritage and then another feat to actually get the weapons.
You brought up Catfolk racial feats, so let's focus in on them. To get a claw attack you either have to spend a feat or give up three fairly valuable skill bonuses. Not to mention that the Catfolk's racial stat modifiers aren't all that attractive for a monk: -2 to Wisdom hurts, and the charisma bonus is going into a dump stat.
2: Feat Cost
Can you get pretty good performance out of a character with FCT, INA, Rending Claws, and Claw Pounce? Sure. You should be getting good results from that, you've invested 40% of your general feats into it. And it's actually five feats, since Claw Pounce requires Nimble Striker as well. So half your non-bonus feats, then.
What could an ordinary monk do with five feats? Well, there's always pummeling style and Pummeling Charge. That hands out Pounce+DR Penetration+super-crits. And can come online at Monk Level 9, while Claw Pounce is 13+. Or you could go Dragon Style for 1.5x strength on your hits.
Sure, you can stick a style feat on a FCT build too, but you're already putting half your general feats into using your claws. If you want to spend three more feats (plus possible prerequisites) on getting a style chain ... well, I hope you don't mind a build that comes online very late in its lifespan, and can't do anything other than claw things for admittedly high damage.
That last sentence (fretgod99) is where you and gravestone have your problem. It isn't a substitution or a replacement. It is "the Monk deal more damage, equal to the number on the table. If the monk is bigger or smaller, the monk's increased US damage is scales as well." (paraphrased).
MUS doesn't replace damage, it increases it.This is Scott's argument, I think. I agree with it.
Let's assume this is a monk with FCT (slam).
Enlarge Person increases the size of your slam, which makes your slam deal damage as one size larger than your original size. Therefore, the second sentence of my MUS (above) triggers and your US scales up.
INA makes your slam "deal damage as if one size larger." Therefore, the second sentence of my MUS (above) triggers and your US scales up.
Where do you get that it increases, as opposed to replaces, the damage? Mark Seifter, a member of the PDT, appears to be under the impression that it's a substitution. Which frankly makes the most sense.
Regardless, even if the US damage increases, it increases to the level of US damage. So you still don't get to use INA if you're using the higher US damage value.
Is there actually some question that Enlarge Person wouldn't increase US damage? Why wouldn't it? By extension it would increase your natural weapon damage via FCT, as well as increasing your weapon's damage just by being a size larger. This has no bearing on whether INA stacks with FCT and Monk US damage.
INA affects one weapon. Enlarge affects a character. That Enlarge carries over does not mean that INA then needs to apply as well after substituting your US damage for your natural weapon.
Fretgod99, Improved Natural Attack carries RAW that directly bears on the OP vis a vis Enlarge Person.
I wrote this in post #55 on this thread.
I have a PFS Tengu character build very like Avoron's.
Level 1, Ranger 1: Claws, Freebooter's Bane, Weapon Focus Claws
2Ranger1Monk1: MOMS, Snake Style, Unarmed Strike Damage 1d6
3R1M2: Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes
4R1M2Figher1: Feral Combat Training, Claws
5R1M3F1: Monastic Legacy, Still Mind, Maneuver Training
6R2M3F1: Improved Natural Attack Claws.When this Tengu takes Feral Combat Training Claws [and reaches level 5], her Claw Damage becomes 1d8 just like her unarmed strike does....
Avoron has said that if this Tengu at Level 5 were to have cast on her an Enlarge Person Spell, both her Unarmed Strike Damage and her Claw Damage go up to 2d6, but at level 6, Improved Natural Attack will not raise her Claw Damage from 1d8 to 2d6 because her base Claw damage is still 1d3 and so the size increase would only raise it from 1d3 to 1d4, so the damage would stick at 1d8.
This is a clear contradiction of the rules.
If Enlarge Person increases the Claw Damage from 1d8 to 2d6, then so does Improved Natural Attack. This is exactly what the Feat does. Avoron's conclusion drawn from his analysis directly contradicts the rules as written, and so cannot be true.The damage for this natural attack increases... as if the creature's size had increased by one category.
Right. I saw your post. Your conclusion is incorrect. There's no rules contradiction there. INA still raises the natural attack damage. It's just that FCT raises it more. They are overlapping benefits, per our reading, not stacking ones. This is not a rules contradiction.
Bashing likely wouldn't stack with Shield Spikes. For one, Bashing is an armor/shiled enchantment and shield spikes are weapons. You're either attacking with the spikes or the shield. If you've seen developer commentary, I'd like to see it. The only thing O've found on topic is some James Jacobs quotes consistently saying the intent is not to stack.