So we should now dismiss all of your anecdotes about how your own group runs as well?
????
Are we reading the same posts?
I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm saying that player behavior over their options is a pretty good indicator. If he had behaved that way over snacks or the meeting time or location or having a woman in the group it would have served as a fair indicator as well.Y'know, I've said everything I consider relevant to this conversation over several other threads in the past 6 months, but I've got to point out that an old man such as the one speaking in the post above will most likely have come to realize that limiting player's choice of character race does absolutely bupkis to solve his problems with disruptive players at his table.Actually, I've found that people who are disruptive before games ever begin are very likely to be the people whom are disruptive after they begin as well... better to weed them out ahead of time for the good of the group.Yeah, but if you're going to accomplish that by limiting PC's choice of anything that could possibly be used disruptively, rather than by choosing to play with people you trust not to be disruptive, then all your efforts are going to be for naught, because the guy you won't let choose catfolk or gunslinger or chaotic neutral will just use his neutral good human bard to ruin the game for everyone else.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't be selective about who you play with, I'm saying that using player options rather that player behavior as your criteria is misguided.
Sure, that's a fair point, but raises the question of how onerous the options allowed/denied to said player are in the first place. Full disclosure, I enjoy sandbox-ey games, and don't really plan long term campaigns without player input at this point.
...
I ran a game in which I informed everyone that they had to play a human character... Inevitably, one of my players who despised playing human characters... pitched a fit. I laid out my campaign idea, and he wouldn't budge. He dropped out of the group for a couple of months...
This is the correct action. Period.
You want to play, then play. But, play by the rules, or guidelines, or consensus, or DM's arbitrary preferences, or whatever.
Otherwise, don't play. If you lament it later... you only have yourself to blame. You had every opportunity to join the game with the requirements that were laid out. I frequently DO NOT play in games because they are open to everything. I don't want to play with a ridiculous menagerie of misfit monsters. That's my preference. If you don't want to play with a limited choice, that's your preference. It won't hurt you to wait for a game that fits your style...
P.S. I snipped down the original quote a bit. Here is the full quote.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We only need three classes: the Cleric, the Fighting man, and the Magic-User. Anything else is blasphemy and not allowed in my games.
It should be stated that no one else wants to play with me anymore. Kids nowadays want to play all these weird classes like "rogue".I know you're being snide but this honestly sounds wonderful to me. Except the rogue part. Rogues have their place and it's called thief. But what's with all these superfluous classes?
Paladin = Cleric who likes to fight.
Ranger = Woodsy fighter.
Barbarian = Angry fighter.
Druid = Cleric into nature.
Bard = Thief who sings songs.
etc, etc
So you are saying you haven't pre-ordered the Advanced Class Guide? :P
Seriously, if limited classes appeals to you, the 3.5 version of Unearthed Arcana had a generic class system with 3 classes which is almost identical to what Nawtyit describes above. I have thought it would be interesting to try for a change of pace.
edit: Whoa, didn't realize this thread was over 900 posts!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So we should now dismiss all of your anecdotes about how your own group runs as well?????
Are we reading the same posts?
I think for the sake of argument (and sanity) let's assume that if a DM here says that his group was having fun playing with them as the DM, that said DM is telling the truth?
I know that people may hold their own play style/DM style as the best way to go, but we should try to at least be reasonable enough to think that people are not lying about the success they have experienced with their own - different from ours - gaming styles.
We can argue the merits of group consensus vs. DM rules till the cows come home, but let's not read anything extra into these testimonies unless evidence is provided by the DM or one of his players.
So we should now dismiss all of your anecdotes about how your own group runs as well?????
Are we reading the same posts?I think for the sake of argument (and sanity) let's assume that if a DM here says they his group was having fun playing with them as the DM, that said DM is telling the truth?
I know that people may hold their own play style/DM style as the best way to go, but we should try to at least be reasonable enough to think that people are not lying about the success they have experienced with their own - different from ours - gaming styles.
We can argue the merits of group consensus vs. DM rules till the cows come home, but let's not read anything extra into these testimonies unless evidence is provided by the DM or one of his players.
Well said, besides I will be the first to admit, not everyone likes my games..I am mean, and uncaring, and make people work for their wins.
But I also have had some very large and fun campaigns, and have had people leave when they did not get their way over some ingame call, even when the player sitting next to them had been subject to the same standards and happily forged ahead.
I have a certain style and that's what I do, if player like it they play if not they don't.
|
|
...Should we link to all the posts where you tell the boards how great your games are? If we are to assume that Gendor is a crap GM because he said his game was great on here, then applying that same logic means you must be a REALLY crap GM.
Let's stick to arguing the merits of different styles vs. pounding each other.
The irony here is that DMs - DMs who put work in their own games as a labor of love, as a hobby and an outlet for expression - are bashing each other. Like watching California Condors fighting each other to the death.
In Thunderdome (aka Paizo forums).
Should we link to all the posts where you tell the boards how great your games are? If we are to assume that Gendor is a crap GM because he said his game was great on here, then applying that same logic means you must be a REALLY crap GM.
Good thing no one said Gendor was a crap GM, so I'm not sure why you'd want to assume that. I just said that he wasn't overly-modest. Nor am I, for that matter!
But here's the thing: what's a "great campaign" for Persons A, B, and C might be a lousy campaign for Persons Q, R, and S. One size doesn't fit all. So when someone declares, "He didn't obey me and therefore he missed out on an awesome campaign," that statement cannot be 100% accurate for all people. Maybe, for that one person, it would have been a lousy camapign, which is maybe why he bowed out.
I've had players leave my home game because they were looking for a different (not "better") one. No harm, no foul. And I still had other players eager to join mine.
Personal preference counts for a lot, and playstyles differ.
What makes a "good" or "bad" campaign may vary from person to person. Blanket statements may miss the mark for specific cases, and adding your own inferences to a post isn't a substitute for mind-reading.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
...Should we link to all the posts where you tell the boards how great your games are? If we are to assume that Gendor is a crap GM because he said his game was great on here, then applying that same logic means you must be a REALLY crap GM.Let's stick to arguing the merits of different styles vs. pounding each other.
The irony here is that DMs - DMs who put work in their own games as a labor of love, as a hobby and an outlet for expression - are bashing each other. Like watching California Condors fighting each other to the death.
In Thunderdome (aka Paizo forums).
Come on guys, can't we just get Beyond Thunderdome?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Come on guys, can't we just get Beyond Thunderdome?...Should we link to all the posts where you tell the boards how great your games are? If we are to assume that Gendor is a crap GM because he said his game was great on here, then applying that same logic means you must be a REALLY crap GM.Let's stick to arguing the merits of different styles vs. pounding each other.
The irony here is that DMs - DMs who put work in their own games as a labor of love, as a hobby and an outlet for expression - are bashing each other. Like watching California Condors fighting each other to the death.
In Thunderdome (aka Paizo forums).
Why? We don't need another hero.
even though i would happily prefer to play a conversion of a true faerie, outsider, undead, or elemental i often have to settle for
*Aasimaar
*Tiefling
*Fetchling
*Suli
*Sylph
*Undine
*Ifrit
*Oread
*Samsaran
*Changeling
*Dhampir
*Skinwalker
though i have a lot of fun homebrewing or converting monsters into PC appropriate races
in the moments the above 8 are banned i will begrudgingly play
*Elf
*Half-Elf
*Drow
*Human of an Ethnicity far enough removed from the region that they are sufficiently different
my bucket list characters
Lolimental of Each Element, essentially, a small awakened anthropomorphic elemental with class levels and human intelligence, themed around their specific element. Water Elemental Barbarian, Earth Elemental Psionic Warrior, Fire Elemental Bard, and an Air Elemental Urban Ranger
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kthulu: probably because the gm gets to decide on the inclusion/exclusion of dozens of races,and what race dozens of npcs are; then it seems quite small-minded to ban the single race that a player wants just because the gm doesnt like them. When its the only thing players get to decide, i think its a sign of good dming to cut them some slack. Exceptions occur of course, but they should ve kept rare exceptions, not anything close to default.
With the caveat that kirth mentioned of course; if other players too want to exclude catfolk that is a different thing.
What's this "only thing players get to decide" nonsense? Last I heard even in the most restrictive campaigns, players get to decide.
1. Ability scores
2. Class choices
3. Skill choices
4. Feat choices
5. Gear choices.And I even hear that some extremely liberal and permissive GMs allow you to NAME your characters.
I have played in a game where the DM wouldn't let new players build their own characters. We had to play the character of his old players. Race (and nationality), abilities, class, gear, AND name were all chosen by him. And half of the skills and feats. Also, spells for casters.
We put up with it because it was the only game in town for a while. It wasn't until he wanted to dictate the actions our characters were actually taking that we revolted. He couldn't take the loss of control and rage quit the game. We missed one week and reformed the game without him. We have very few restrictions in options in the new game and everything is just fine.
Basically, limiting choices is almost always about control issues. It's not about your precious game world. If you want to control everything go write a book. We are here to play a game and I have a Catfolk Senthesis Summoner. Deal.
I'm talking humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves. These days everyone is playing some anthropomorphic animal or some elemental being or just something that is essentially a dark and edgy human. The obvious solution to this issue is just to limit the races... But alas, this only leads to complaints upon complaints. -Sigh-. Does anyone else feel similarly?
The only time I have played a non-base race in PF is when they did not exist in the setting.
I think you seemed at least somewhat approving of my fae instead of evil outsider based Tiefling equivalent.
i'm also approving of Fae Equivalents for Aasimaar, Undine, Fetchling, Sylph, Oread and Ifrit
i also approve of replacing Gnomes with Elins or Elves with Castanics
@RDM - I put the pants on everyday that I want to wear too, does that make me a control freak?
No, I would be a control freak if I told you what pair of pants to wear to my house.
Same story, I'm not a control freak for wanting to and insisting on playing the character of my choosing. The guy that tells me what I can play us a control freak.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
I want to play a catgirl Space Marine (Space Wolves chapter) with both Thor and Spider-Man's superpowers.
Edit: And Kitty Pryde's, too.
It would seem like that category could support most of your preferences and predilections.
I think you seemed at least somewhat approving of my fae instead of evil outsider based Tiefling equivalent.
i'm also approving of Fae Equivalents for Aasimaar, Undine, Fetchling, Sylph, Oread and Ifrit
i also approve of replacing Gnomes with Elins or Elves with Castanics
Fae and Planetouched equivalents support most of my preferences, as do doll like undead and cute anthropomorphic elementals.
It's always been my thought that as the GM I want my players to be happy. Period. Yeah, I want rules so no one dominates the game and makes it seem 'unreal', but as far as character creation and race goes...I open it up to everything and anything (as I posted earlier the Savage Species conversion). I tell them that I want them to play whatever it is that they can imagine they'd want to be if they were transported into this fantasy world.
With that said, my players also know that in Golarion, walking about as a Black Dragon might not go over so well in certain areas and finding a magic item to fit its body can also be a problem.
The odd thing is, and maybe this is just the group that I game with but, at the moment 6 of 8 are playing humans, 1 is playing aasimar and the last is a gnome. It seems the more choices I give them the more they tend to focus on core.
Again, I actively encourage them to make frankenfreak monsters to help me play test the conversions I've made, but when it comes down to it - they all prefer to focus on the story and having fun.
Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
And if I wanted to play a half-Jedi who took levels in Elf, what would you say?
I want to play a catgirl Space Marine (Space Wolves chapter) with both Thor and Spider-Man's superpowers.
Yes, because race and level are the same thing.
And if I wanted to play a half-Jedi who took levels in Elf, what would you say?Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
Sure, provide me with the published d20 material you want to use or if there isn't any I'll be happy to work with you to develop content that suits your concept.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@RDM - I put the pants on everyday that I want to wear too, does that make me a control freak?
No, I would be a control freak if I told you what pair of pants to wear to my house.
Same story, I'm not a control freak for wanting to and insisting on playing the character of my choosing. The guy that tells me what I can play us a control freak.
So could you not say that the gm isn't a control freak just because he wants to gm the world of his choosing, which doesn't contain cat folk?
I would say there is a way to make it work.
I want to play a catgirl Space Marine (Space Wolves chapter) with both Thor and Spider-Man's superpowers.Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
Sure, you can play a Catfolk (reflavored to not be completely feline, just a catgirl) Oracle of Winds MC'ed with a Vermin Sorcerer specializing in Web spells and Spider climb (hell, I'll even let you take Web bolt for the level 1 spell, even though it's a drow spell). I'm not super familiar with 40k, but depending on what you want out of the Space Marine, I'd work with you. Based on the character, it seems like it'd be reasonable to assume mythic. I'd say the power armor could be a Legendary Armor (with everlasting, legendary fortification and Unyielding)
So yes, you can play that character. But I'm guessing this wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.
Sure, provide me with the published d20 material you want to use or if there isn't any I'll be happy to work with you to develop content that suits your concept.And if I wanted to play a half-Jedi who took levels in Elf, what would you say?Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
Why does it have to be published you control freak!?
Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
I want to play a catgirl Space Marine (Space Wolves chapter) with both Thor and Spider-Man's superpowers.
Edit: And Kitty Pryde's, too.
Sure, provide me with the published d20 material you want to use or if there isn't any I'll be happy to work with you to develop content that suits your concept.
Why does it have to be published you control freak!?Sure, provide me with the published d20 material you want to use or if there isn't any I'll be happy to work with you to develop content that suits your concept.And if I wanted to play a half-Jedi who took levels in Elf, what would you say?Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
:-/ I did say I would be happy to work on custom content immediately afterward.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say there is a way to make it work.@RDM - I put the pants on everyday that I want to wear too, does that make me a control freak?
No, I would be a control freak if I told you what pair of pants to wear to my house.
Same story, I'm not a control freak for wanting to and insisting on playing the character of my choosing. The guy that tells me what I can play us a control freak.
So could you not say that the gm isn't a control freak just because he wants to gm the world of his choosing, which doesn't contain cat folk?
Yes. Pick something else which actually exists on the world and move on. If anthropomorphic animal people aren't part of a specific world there should be no requirement to shoehorn them in.
And I would say that your game world related ego is getting in the way of a collaborative game. As the GM we get to control 99.999999% of the game world, why do you need to control player choices too?
:-/ I did say I would be happy to work on custom content immediately afterward.Why does it have to be published you control freak!?Sure, provide me with the published d20 material you want to use or if there isn't any I'll be happy to work with you to develop content that suits your concept.And if I wanted to play a half-Jedi who took levels in Elf, what would you say?Amazingly, I am able to run a weekly game every week for 2 years where the players can play whatever they want and neither the game nor my ego have collapsed."It's not about your precious game world."
In the absence of a game world, your Catfolk synthesis summoner dies in the vaccuum of space.
Alright fine. But I am unwilling to specify what my class-race should do. It just should do the things I want it to do at all times and all levels.
I want to play my character through narrative only. Any sort of dice you force me to roll is being a control freak and telling me that I can't force choke the BBEG of the campaign to death is controlling my actions.
Also, I can't be hit or harmed in anyway do to my racial force shield.
And I would say that your game world related ego is getting in the way of a collaborative game. As the GM we get to control 99.999999% of the game world, why do you need to control player choices too?I would say there is a way to make it work.@RDM - I put the pants on everyday that I want to wear too, does that make me a control freak?
No, I would be a control freak if I told you what pair of pants to wear to my house.
Same story, I'm not a control freak for wanting to and insisting on playing the character of my choosing. The guy that tells me what I can play us a control freak.
So could you not say that the gm isn't a control freak just because he wants to gm the world of his choosing, which doesn't contain cat folk?
Yes. Pick something else which actually exists on the world and move on. If anthropomorphic animal people aren't part of a specific world there should be no requirement to shoehorn them in.
And you still have 99 percent of choices available to you. Why can't you pick something else?
Pretending that you don't have agency or choice just because not every single option is on the table is disingenuous at best.
Not when the choice I choose is forbidden.