The difference is that the rebel drow with scimitars wasn't supposed to be a standard example of his race. It only became so because D'rzzt was so popular.
That's not everyone playing the iconic/thematic version of that race, that's everyone copying a specific character who was supposed to be an exception.
The thematic Drow should really be a Machiavellian female cleric.
I'm no expert on drow lore, but I did read some about them in the 3.x era and I read the first dozed or so drizzt books (I think they've got an unnecessarily bad rep - books 1-6 are quite good, and the one about wulfgar is decent too; they're not LeGuin quality but not as bad as many claim. After book 6 it went downhill though).
The iconic drow is no more a female cleric than the iconic human is a high-level wizard. The female clerics are the highest caste, no doubt, but male soldiers are much much more common numerically. Unlike humans they're not as demographically dominated by laborers, since they have a lot of non-drow slaves for that, but the female clerics are a small group.
And it is stated in one of the drizzt books (the one where he hangs out with a ranger afaik, book 3?) that wielding two large blades is a quite common fighting style among the drow (together with, IIRC, polearms)
So I'd say drow warriors are at least as iconic and thematic - especially in the overworld, and especially among those few who aren't child-eating-evil - as the clerics of Llolth.
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Adventurers are Outliers, regardless of their race. it matters not whether they are Human, Genasi, Half-Nymph or Werefox, in fact, some of the rarer races, are more likely to produce adventurers because many humans have the privilege of being accepted.
This may be a bit of a blanket statement, I have ran and played in many campaigns where adventurers are part of the community or even principle pillars of it, hometown heros, with full developed family structure.
Noble houses that send members to deal with problems in the land, brothers, siblings etc that adventure in order to protect their homes or even finance civic ventures.
In all of these regardless of race it was how they fit into the setting and community.
You don't always have to play a outsider character to feel like a adventurer, having roots can make for much deeper play.
The difference is that the rebel drow with scimitars wasn't supposed to be a standard example of his race. It only became so because D'rzzt was so popular.
That's not everyone playing the iconic/thematic version of that race, that's everyone copying a specific character who was supposed to be an exception.
The thematic Drow should really be a Machiavellian female cleric.
I'm no expert on drow lore, but I did read some about them in the 3.x era and I read the first dozed or so drizzt books (I think they've got an unnecessarily bad rep - books 1-6 are quite good, and the one about wulfgar is decent too; they're not LeGuin quality but not as bad as many claim. After book 6 it went downhill though).
The iconic drow is no more a female cleric than the iconic human is a high-level wizard. The female clerics are the highest caste, no doubt, but male soldiers are much much more common numerically. Unlike humans they're not as demographically dominated by laborers, since they have a lot of non-drow slaves for that, but the female clerics are a small group.
And it is stated in one of the drizzt books (the one where he hangs out with a ranger afaik, book 3?) that wielding two large blades is a quite common fighting style among the drow (together with, IIRC, polearms)
So I'd say drow warriors are at least as iconic and thematic - especially in the overworld, and especially among those few who aren't child-eating-evil - as the clerics of Llolth.
Actually in the Dark Elf Trilogy (the one you are thinking of) It is established that even with the Drow TWF is rare. That is the reasoning that Zaknafein used on Matron Du'rdun to keep Drizzt under his tutelage.
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In the old school drow stuff (vault of the drow) they used shortswords, small shields, and handcrossbows with poison on everything.
Females used maces, rods and whips..and harsh language.
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I'm no expert on drow lore, but I did read some about them in the 3.x era and I read the first dozed or so drizzt books (I think they've got an unnecessarily bad rep - books 1-6 are quite good, and the one about wulfgar is decent too; they're not LeGuin quality but not as bad as many claim. After book 6 it went downhill though).
I think a lot of the reason for their reputation has less to do with the books themselves, and more to do with the general fandom response. I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount of the complaints come from people who've never even read one of the books, but are understandably sick of dealing with Drizzt-clones.
Have to agree with you on the quality of the series; I wasn't surprised to learn that Salvatore wanted to end it at six books, but WotC pretty much forced him to keep cranking them out.
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Actually in the Dark Elf Trilogy (the one you are thinking of) It is established that even with the Drow TWF is rare. That is the reasoning that Zaknafein used on Matron Du'rdun to keep Drizzt under his tutelage.The difference is that the rebel drow with scimitars wasn't supposed to be a standard example of his race. It only became so because D'rzzt was so popular.
That's not everyone playing the iconic/thematic version of that race, that's everyone copying a specific character who was supposed to be an exception.
The thematic Drow should really be a Machiavellian female cleric.
I'm no expert on drow lore, but I did read some about them in the 3.x era and I read the first dozed or so drizzt books (I think they've got an unnecessarily bad rep - books 1-6 are quite good, and the one about wulfgar is decent too; they're not LeGuin quality but not as bad as many claim. After book 6 it went downhill though).
The iconic drow is no more a female cleric than the iconic human is a high-level wizard. The female clerics are the highest caste, no doubt, but male soldiers are much much more common numerically. Unlike humans they're not as demographically dominated by laborers, since they have a lot of non-drow slaves for that, but the female clerics are a small group.
And it is stated in one of the drizzt books (the one where he hangs out with a ranger afaik, book 3?) that wielding two large blades is a quite common fighting style among the drow (together with, IIRC, polearms)
So I'd say drow warriors are at least as iconic and thematic - especially in the overworld, and especially among those few who aren't child-eating-evil - as the clerics of Llolth.
I do find the non-linear history of drow according to RA Salvatore quite interesting (and I like the books). In 1E (which was the current system when The Crystal Shard was released) one of the drow racial abilities was to use two one-handed weapons (in PF terms that means any light and one-handed weapons) at the same time without penalty. They lost that ability in 2E. This was, unfortunately for me, long after my unashamedly drow fighter wielding two longswords was thoroughly established in a campaign. Definitely not tortured, definitely not ashamed of what he is, and definitely Lawful Good. I still maintain he's not a Drizzt clone. And one of my fellow players still keeps OOC calling him a ranger. Good times.
@ the OP
Is the real issue people picking a race purely for the mechanical benefits only and forgetting the RP side of things?
If so then I agree with you but this has always happened. It isn't anything new to Pathfinder, there will always be elves who are no more than dexterous humans with fake pointy ears.
As a GM, I'd rather keep an open mind about these things. As a player, I'd rather play with a GM that didn't pigeonhole every member of a race into a narrow stereotype, especially when it results in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy where they dislike that race as they percieve it yet insist everyone play that race under that perception.Yes, we get it. Racism is bad.
Once again, if you're going to run your entire game world like it's populated by enlightened 21st century Western progressives, accepting of all people and cultures, then yeah, there is absolutely no downside to playing an esoteric race and you should fully expect your players to min-max the system for combat optimization.
(Yes, I'm also aware that some people genuinely choose rare races based on role-playing reasons, but you're out of your mind if you honestly think they're anything but a tiny fraction compared to the power gamers who just want the juicy stats.)
But the original poster (whose question I keep trying to get back to) wondered why it seems like the core races have seemingly become rare. And that's his answer: If you want to encourage people to play those races, who are relatively weak compared to the newer, stranger races, then you have to actually enforce the flavor text that explains why they're rare, unwelcome, or otherwise negatively viewed by the more populous races.
How do the people of Golarion treat them though? In the novels I've read, people were surprisingly tolerant of lizardfolk, and often condemned tieflings outside of Cheliax.
While playing int he world of Golarion, I would base peoples' reactions to unusual races on precedent.
If they want to go wherever they want and almost always be welcome? If they never want to suffer a circumstance penalty on social skills with common folk or townspeople? If they want to start off as neutral in the eyes of the local authorities instead of distrusted?
There shouldn't BE any circumstance penalties at all int this case. That's cheating the player. What SHOULD happen is the NPC has a worse starting attitude towards the monstrous character.
That more closely follows the written rules, and likely player expectations too.
Applying a circumstance penalty is like saying "here's a -5 even though your race has +2 Charisma and a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy." You're going to have the player walk out on you or punch you in the face.
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The issue to me is purely mechanical. It's ability score penalties. Since there is now so many playable races, you can prety much find one that adds to the two scores you need and subtracts from one you don't. So you get people playing weird races because that's what makes a good ranger, or whatever class they are playing. Want to play a gnome fighter? You have to suck up major penalties. Compared to an optimized race you've got -4str on top of a reduced damage die.
I'd be very curious to see what your group composition would be if every race got the same +2 to one ability.
It certainly sounds ridiculous to me.Aaaaaaaand... we're done.
If I'm ridiculous because I choose to use the books as written and respect the game's creators as being knowledgeable about their own product, I think I can see where the rest of this conversation will go.
Goodnight, Pathfinders. See you at the table!
Well considering you seem to think that Tieflings are "Half-fiends" then that goes to show that you DO NOT use RAW. Heck! Even if you didn't read the fluff, the fact that there are Div-Spawn, Rahkshasa-Spawn, Demon-Spawn, Devil-Spawn, Oni-Spawn, and more should tell you that there are more than "fiends"....
The issue to me is purely mechanical. It's ability score penalties. Since there is now so many playable races, you can prety much find one that adds to the two scores you need and subtracts from one you don't. So you get people playing weird races because that's what makes a good ranger, or whatever class they are playing. Want to play a gnome fighter? You have to suck up major penalties. Compared to an optimized race you've got -4str on top of a reduced damage die.
I'd be very curious to see what your group composition would be if every race got the same +2 to one ability.
Seeing as how humans is still one of the very strongest races optimization-wise for most classes (partly due to that +2 to any) I don't think the difference would be that huge. Humans would lose some comparative strength compared to the races with semi-crappy stat makeup but good abilities (dhampirs being a prime example, becoming "half-orcs but better", and half-orcs are already quite nice).
Design Manager
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They aren't any more powerful than the 'standard' racesYes, they are. They just are, according to game's designers, who designated them as rare and even allocated them more race points in an effort to keep them that way.
Let's keep pretending that race points are an accurate gauge of power-
Hmmm... I definitely don't want any power gamers at my table, so I better limit them to 8 race points or less. That way they couldn't play anything more powerful than a dwarf with 120 foot darkvision who can turn invisible or enlarge himself with total immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison.
Seeing as how humans is still one of the very strongest races optimization-wise for most classes (partly due to that +2 to any) I don't think the difference would be that huge. Humans would lose some comparative strength compared to the races with semi-crappy stat makeup but good abilities (dhampirs being a prime example, becoming "half-orcs but better", and half-orcs are already quite nice).The issue to me is purely mechanical. It's ability score penalties. Since there is now so many playable races, you can prety much find one that adds to the two scores you need and subtracts from one you don't. So you get people playing weird races because that's what makes a good ranger, or whatever class they are playing. Want to play a gnome fighter? You have to suck up major penalties. Compared to an optimized race you've got -4str on top of a reduced damage die.
I'd be very curious to see what your group composition would be if every race got the same +2 to one ability.
Also, the bonus any feat they get also makes them the strongest choice for just about every single class optimization-wise. Take away that bonus feat, and the number of power gamed humans would significantly drop. Maybe then all these "people only choose the exotic races for powergaming purposes" would stop being uttered.
Also, the bonus any feat they get also makes them the strongest choice for just about every single class optimization-wise. Take away that bonus feat, and the number of power gamed humans would significantly drop. Maybe then all these "people only choose the exotic races for powergaming purposes" would stop being uttered.Seeing as how humans is still one of the very strongest races optimization-wise for most classes (partly due to that +2 to any) I don't think the difference would be that huge. Humans would lose some comparative strength compared to the races with semi-crappy stat makeup but good abilities (dhampirs being a prime example, becoming "half-orcs but better", and half-orcs are already quite nice).The issue to me is purely mechanical. It's ability score penalties. Since there is now so many playable races, you can prety much find one that adds to the two scores you need and subtracts from one you don't. So you get people playing weird races because that's what makes a good ranger, or whatever class they are playing. Want to play a gnome fighter? You have to suck up major penalties. Compared to an optimized race you've got -4str on top of a reduced damage die.
I'd be very curious to see what your group composition would be if every race got the same +2 to one ability.
Oh, you cannot forget the fact that Humans have access to Racial Heritage as well, allowing them to cherry pick spells, feats, and traits from another race as well (Like the Half-Elf Oracle build which could be done with a human. Or the fact that humans tend to be some of the most powerful blasters by taking some stuff from Wayangs.)
well then... just make it a flat +2 to two stats and a -2 to one stat, one free feat, and everything else is flavor text..for all races, just make up your own on the spot, no special abilities, nothing and everything will be nice and equal...
Yeah I thought not.
Also, the bonus any feat they get also makes them the strongest choice for just about every single class optimization-wise. Take away that bonus feat, and the number of power gamed humans would significantly drop. Maybe then all these "people only choose the exotic races for powergaming purposes" would stop being uttered.
I wouldn't say "the" strongest in most cases, but yes, it's a very major benefit.
For barbarians, I'd say humans are _the_ strongest, but special mention should go to orc/half-orc for easy access to infinite rage.For bard, it depends on build, but half-orc, catfolk, human, ifrit, and halfling are all strong.
For clerics and druids, humans and dwarves are the top dogs, but a few other races are good as well.
And it's pretty much the same all the way - it's rare that another race is clearly better; only I can think of is aasimar oracle which is kind of "buggy".
There are often several contenders for the best, but mostly humans are among the contenders, and dwarves are common too.
Also, the bonus any feat they get also makes them the strongest choice for just about every single class optimization-wise. Take away that bonus feat, and the number of power gamed humans would significantly drop. Maybe then all these "people only choose the exotic races for powergaming purposes" would stop being uttered.I wouldn't say "the" strongest in most cases, but yes, it's a very major benefit.
For barbarians, I'd say humans are _the_ strongest, but special mention should go to orc/half-orc for easy access to infinite rage.
For bard, it depends on build, but half-orc, catfolk, human, ifrit, and halfling are all strong.
For clerics and druids, humans and dwarves are the top dogs, but a few other races are good as well.And it's pretty much the same all the way - it's rare that another race is clearly better; only I can think of is aasimar oracle which is kind of "buggy".
There are often several contenders for the best, but mostly humans are among the contenders, and dwarves are common too.
Actually Aasimar Oracles are kind of meh. The fact that Aasimars are Native Outisders hurts them a lot (spells like enlarge and such has no effect on them). The true power-gamer oracle is the Half-Elf Oracle (or human with Racial Heritage (Half-elf) for all the sense that makes)
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There will always be power gamers, I've never had a big problem with that in my games. The way to deal with that is social, not through rules.
My issue with races is feeling pigeonholed into class choices. Humans don't get penalized for their class choices, that's great. But if you want to play a dwarf, for example, there's only a few classes that you can play otherwise you are taking a penalty for roleplaying flavor. And I hate anything that penalizes roleplayers.
Actually Aasimar Oracles are kind of meh. The fact that Aasimars are Native Outisders hurts them a lot (spells like enlarge and such has no effect on them). The true power-gamer oracle is the Half-Elf Oracle (or human with Racial Heritage (Half-elf) for all the sense that makes)
Oh, yeah, forgot about paragon surge. Still, aasimar oracles are awesome; An 8th level lunar oracle can have a 12 HD tiger animal companion, in addition to all the normal nicities oracles have.
I'd say half-elves and humans are the masters of versitility as oracles, while aasimars are the masters of raw power.
Me as well, it would certainly reduce the human-dominance of most parties.Actually the human dominance stems from the bonus feat and the fact that across the board human favored class bonuses are in the top tier if not flat out the best. Even if you took away the feat and ran everyone with same stats, the humans still have flat out better favored class bonuses.
I would say the floating ability score is part of why they're so dominant as well. Without it, they'd probably be barred from 2/3 of caster classes (those not keyed of their stat bonus) and quite a few other builds (those dependent on their penalized stat).
If they where for example -2 str +2 dex +2 int, you'd see far fewer human bards, sorcerers, oracles, clerics, barbarians etc etc etc. Most melee classes that likes their strength and most casters not keyed to int would strongly consider other options, even when their FC bonuses and feat are so tasty.
I would be in favor of everyone getting the +2 to two, -2 to one array for ability scores. And the favored class bonuses... probably best to throw those out and just stick to the +1 skill/hit point thing.
Maybe then you will see gnome or halfling or elf barbarians without having the other players ridicule you for "poor choice". Although, with a large part of the non-ability score racial abilities (like the bonus spell penetration of elves) would still pigeonhole races, so you can get the most of what your race offers.
Kyrt Ryder: That's a great idea. Thanks for that! Since I'm currently working on a simplified pathfinder-based game, that's a fantastic idea.
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They aren't any more powerful than the 'standard' racesYes, they are. They just are, according to game's designers, who designated them as rare and even allocated them more race points in an effort to keep them that way.
They failed miserably.
Let me make this as simple as I can.
If I take the stat block 'dwarf' and use it, verbatim, as the stats for a race of deformed mole men, they do not get more powerful. Flavor text has no bearing on mechanical power. That's why it's called flavor text.
Flavor text does matter ... the flavor text the players and the GM give their game world. That is the ONLY flavor that matters. If I'm not running Golarion, and even if I am, the book's flavor text can go hang.
And calling you 'ignorant' is not name calling. Ignorance means you don't know something, and you've more-than-amply demonstrated your ignorance more than once in this thread. Either that, or you're a bold-faced liar.
Take your pick.
They aren't any more powerful than the 'standard' racesYes, they are. They just are, according to game's designers, who designated them as rare and even allocated them more race points in an effort to keep them that way.They failed miserably.
Let me make this as simple as I can.
If I take the stat block 'dwarf' and use it, verbatim, as the stats for a race of deformed mole men, they do not get more powerful. Flavor text has no bearing on mechanical power. That's why it's called flavor text.
Flavor text does matter ... the flavor text the players and the GM give their game world. That is the ONLY flavor that matters. If I'm not running Golarion, and even if I am, the book's flavor text can go hang.
And calling you 'ignorant' is not name calling. Ignorance means you don't know something, and you've more-than-amply demonstrated your ignorance more than once in this thread. Either that, or you're a bold-faced liar.
Take your pick.
While the basis of his reasons for his claim may not be sound...
After looking over some of the races in ARG I gotta admit at first blush they do look "better" than the Core races.Now not having taken the time some have to analyze every little nuance of the system to its inevitable end I cannot say that the First Impression is flat out wrong.
And neither will the Average Munchkin. (Lets face it the average Munchkin is Lawful Power Mad with Chaotic Stupid leanings)
all they care about is-
Moar Kewl Powurz hu hu hu...
They aren't any more powerful than the 'standard' racesYes, they are. They just are, according to game's designers, who designated them as rare and even allocated them more race points in an effort to keep them that way.They failed miserably.
Let me make this as simple as I can.
If I take the stat block 'dwarf' and use it, verbatim, as the stats for a race of deformed mole men, they do not get more powerful. Flavor text has no bearing on mechanical power. That's why it's called flavor text.
Flavor text does matter ... the flavor text the players and the GM give their game world. That is the ONLY flavor that matters. If I'm not running Golarion, and even if I am, the book's flavor text can go hang.
And calling you 'ignorant' is not name calling. Ignorance means you don't know something, and you've more-than-amply demonstrated your ignorance more than once in this thread. Either that, or you're a bold-faced liar.
Take your pick.
While the basis of his reasons for his claim may not be sound...
After looking over some of the races in ARG I gotta admit at first blush they do look "better" than the Core races.Now not having taken the time some have to analyze every little nuance of the system to its inevitable end I cannot say that the First Impression is flat out wrong.
And neither will the Average Munchkin. (Lets face it the average Munchkin is Lawful Power Mad with Chaotic Stupid leanings)
all they care about is-
Moar Kewl Powurz hu hu hu...
Except that shows you are talking about obnoxious nubs and NOT a real munchkin. If you want real powergaming munchkin, the Core-races are generally going to be where you will the best. The exception are things like Lormyr's Oni-Spawn Tiefling monk, but generally speaking, the Core races are the most powerful races in the game.
Except that shows you are talking about obnoxious nubs and NOT a real munchkin. If you want real powergaming munchkin, the Core-races are generally going to be where you will the best. The exception are things like Lormyr's Oni-Spawn Tiefling monk, but generally speaking, the Core races are the most powerful races in the game.They aren't any more powerful than the 'standard' racesYes, they are. They just are, according to game's designers, who designated them as rare and even allocated them more race points in an effort to keep them that way.They failed miserably.
Let me make this as simple as I can.
If I take the stat block 'dwarf' and use it, verbatim, as the stats for a race of deformed mole men, they do not get more powerful. Flavor text has no bearing on mechanical power. That's why it's called flavor text.
Flavor text does matter ... the flavor text the players and the GM give their game world. That is the ONLY flavor that matters. If I'm not running Golarion, and even if I am, the book's flavor text can go hang.
And calling you 'ignorant' is not name calling. Ignorance means you don't know something, and you've more-than-amply demonstrated your ignorance more than once in this thread. Either that, or you're a bold-faced liar.
Take your pick.
While the basis of his reasons for his claim may not be sound...
After looking over some of the races in ARG I gotta admit at first blush they do look "better" than the Core races.Now not having taken the time some have to analyze every little nuance of the system to its inevitable end I cannot say that the First Impression is flat out wrong.
And neither will the Average Munchkin. (Lets face it the average Munchkin is Lawful Power Mad with Chaotic Stupid leanings)
all they care about is-
Moar Kewl Powurz hu hu hu...
There is a difference between Power Gaming and Munchkinism.
Just like there is a difference between a an Optimizer and a Min/Maxer.Just like there is a difference between a Rules Lawyer and a Rules Guru.
One set works to make sure their idea of fun does not interfere with any one elses fun.
The other set is just a collection of obnoxious self-centered d***** nozzles with entitlement issues.
One set is rare.
One set tries to hide its true nature under the guise of innocence.
Care to guess which is which?
I only ever play as a Human. My friends and such tend to call me boring and unable to take risks but I just feel weird not playing as a Human.
Funny thing about the claim that unusual races are picked for power gaming...
In my gaming group, one of the members wants to GM the Jade Regent AP.
He was at first unsure which races he would allow us to use, and was considering allowing us to use some unusual races... but did say that we would have to write a good background story to explain any such if he did end up allowing them. I wanted to play a skin-walker (from Blood of the Moon). So I made my character with the understanding that my race choice might not be allowed (my back up plan was to make the character a human if that ended up being the case).
Well, the GM ended up deciding to not allow unusual races after all, so I converted my skin-walker to human as I had planned.
As a human, my character is extremely better than he had been as a skin-walker.
How are wayangs the best blasters, and how do orcs get infinite rage?