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Just spend a feat on Iron will, and take a trait that gives you +1 will saves. Lowering your BAB and delaying the point you get fighter only feats is not really worth a dip for a straight fighter.
A half elf or elf gets a +2 save vs. enchantment so that would put you up to +5 on the important will saves with only a 10 wisdom. A dwarf will get the same bonus or even better if he takes the feat steel soul.
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YOu can't spend a fighter's feats on Iron Will, it's not a combat feat.
You can spend any character's General feats on it, however, which means you're sacrificing a general feat to make up for the class you took.
Having to spend a trait, feat and your race choice to make up for your choice of class is generally a very bad indicator of balance.
==Aelryinth
It's same-same. The fighter has enough bonus combat feats to off-set the need to use a regular feat slot for Iron Will.
Iron Will is not enough. Improved Iron Will might be worthwhile if it worked more than once per day, or if you can raise Will high enough that Improved Iron Will can be used to reroll a Natural 1.
Iron Will + Hardy + Steel Soul + Glory of Old is closer to the mark.
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I prefer a 2 level dip into paladin. Keep your BAB up, charisma bonus to all saves, smite evil for a little boost against baddies, and lay on hands, which even at only 1d6 works great with the die hard chain of feats.
the only issue with a 2 level dip into pally is that you may as well just go 20 levels of pally because you have your RP restrictions over your fighter now.
I prefer a 2 level dip into paladin. Keep your BAB up, charisma bonus to all saves, smite evil for a little boost against baddies, and lay on hands, which even at only 1d6 works great with the die hard chain of feats.
And it's not like all the fighters are clamoring for high charisma. The paladin dip would likely detract from the character overall. Even if you have a decent charisma (14) you effectively get yourself Iron Will by taking a two level dip. Or you could save yourself the trouble of being a paladin and the hit you have to take to your either stats by raising Charisma and just spend one of the many feats you get as a fighter to pickup Iron Will.
Athaleon has the right of it. Iron Will + Hardy + Steel Soul + Glory of Old will shore up your low will save, and boost your others quite well too. The only downside being you must be a Dwarf.
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It's same-same. The fighter has enough bonus combat feats to off-set the need to use a regular feat slot for Iron Will.Really? My archer's booked past 11, and there are several feats that he really wants but can't fit in. And you only need 1 level of Spellbreaker Inquisitor to roll twice on your Will saves.
just to clarify, its only against mind effecting... which they have the spindle stone + wayfinder trick that makes this unnecessary.
i would still stick with solid fighter for the sake of BAB progression and qualifying for feats. 2 feats, 3 for a dwarf isn't a big deal in the long run
It's same-same. The fighter has enough bonus combat feats to off-set the need to use a regular feat slot for Iron Will.Really? My archer's booked past 11, and there are several feats that he really wants but can't fit in. And you only need 1 level of Spellbreaker ...
I was responding to Aelrynth's post regarding feat slots. I don't disagree that a splash of Inquisitor can make a wonderful addition to many fighter feats. But as has been shown by many folks in this thread, the same could be said of many other classes... hell, a few levels of Barbarian can give some wonderful kick to a fighter, in terms of offense, defense, and out-of-combat utility.
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Or, you know, you can build a character that gets charmed/dominated every once in a while.
The way some people harp on this, you'd think it's being thrown around 2-3 times a session. Frankly, I wouldn't play a fighter in a game like that.
It only needs to happen once to lead to a TPK.
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Or, you know, you can build a character that gets charmed/dominated every once in a while.
The way some people harp on this, you'd think it's being thrown around 2-3 times a session. Frankly, I wouldn't play a fighter in a game like that.
i got dominated once back in 3.5 the gm told me i had to kill my party... it was all bad. im ok with getting dominated, it part of the game, i just dont like the idea of one hitting my party members and causing a tpk.
I've never been on the receiving end of this scenario (so take this with a grain of salt). If a DM dominated my martial character and told me to kill my teammates, I'd be really tempted to hand him my character sheet and say, "nope, you do it." Not in a rude or mean way, but I don't really want to be responsible for killing off the characters that my friends are invested in.
And let's be honest, Dominate effectively turns you into an NPC, anyway.
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Even if you don't actually kill your party yourself, a dominated fighter kills the action economy for the entire team. The fighters attacks that were going to the enemy are now going towards the party - even if they are as non-lethal damage or maneuvers. Other party members attacks are being negated by trying to restrain the fighter. Meanwhile, the enemy is still attacking the rest of the team. That tactical situation means that the odds are very good for at least one party member death, and a TPK becomes much more likely than if they were not dominated.
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YOu can't spend a fighter's feats on Iron Will, it's not a combat feat.
You can spend any character's General feats on it, however, which means you're sacrificing a general feat to make up for the class you took.
Having to spend a trait, feat and your race choice to make up for your choice of class is generally a very bad indicator of balance.
==Aelryinth
Because all classes should have all good saves? Because all Feats should only work toward specializing your character? You have a strange view of balance. If spending a feat to plug a weakness is considered bad balance, then every class in the game is obviously out of whack.
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YOu can't spend a fighter's feats on Iron Will, it's not a combat feat.
You can spend any character's General feats on it, however, which means you're sacrificing a general feat to make up for the class you took.
Having to spend a trait, feat and your race choice to make up for your choice of class is generally a very bad indicator of balance.
==Aelryinth
Because all classes should have all good saves? Because all Feats should only work toward specializing your character? You have a strange view of balance. If spending a feat to plug a weakness is considered bad balance, then every class in the game is obviously out of whack.
Except Monks, who are clearly OP with three good saves.
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You know that dominated gives you an extra save every time you are asked to do something against your nature.
*Like a LG fighter being asked to attack the party
If your will save is not completely awful, you killing the party should not be an issue.
Poor will saves ruin fighter days-all that power to just be someones monkey so:
2 level dip in inquisitor (spellbreaker) = roll twice for all will saves, +2 will (auto), divine wand access, track, wis to initiative (makes a 12 wis extra useful), skill boost, orisons, judgement (+1 hit/dam/AC/fast heal or SAVES when really matters and a domain/terrain doman/inquisition of choice (that alone is worth it)...
Sounds like a good idea for obtaining a good defensive boost AND goodies. The travel domain as just one example gives you plus 10' movement (always great) and ignore difficult terrain (situational but still good). Just pick a domain that's good at level one.
You will be losing out on the favored class bonus for those Inquisitor levels- boo hoo- but will still net more skill points.
or what you could do is have your own kitsune sorcerer enchanter who happens to dominate your fighter first, and then dominate every thing else that ever lived
Same could be (and has been, repeatedly) said of any SoD/SoS spell. At least a fighter with a bad will save is easy for the allies to harmlessly take out of the fight (hideous laughter, hold person, dominate), if they must, or simply protect against the worst will SoD/SoS spells (an appropriate protection from alignment spell, for instance, does away with charm/compulsion for the duration of the effect).
It only needs to happen once to lead to a TPK.
Domination is only one will save that can screw you over. Yes, it's an especially bad one, and if it sticks it's most likely to lead to a TPK. But any of the things you mentioned, plus other spells and effects, plus Dazing Spell, can take someone right out of the combat if they fail their Will save.
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I think if your party is good with things like dispel magic, break enchantment, protection from evil, etc, then you don't have to go crazy boosting saves. Boost them a bit sure, but still prioritize damage.
The victim still lost a turn of combat (unless the effect was applied and dispelled in between his turns) in a game where combat only takes a few rounds. Then someone else loses a turn removing the effect. Then the enemy is likely to reapply it.
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YOu can't spend a fighter's feats on Iron Will, it's not a combat feat.
You can spend any character's General feats on it, however, which means you're sacrificing a general feat to make up for the class you took.
Having to spend a trait, feat and your race choice to make up for your choice of class is generally a very bad indicator of balance.
==Aelryinth
Because all classes should have all good saves? Because all Feats should only work toward specializing your character? You have a strange view of balance. If spending a feat to plug a weakness is considered bad balance, then every class in the game is obviously out of whack.
STRAWMAN ALERT!
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I think if your party is good with things like dispel magic, break enchantment, protection from evil, etc, then you don't have to go crazy boosting saves. Boost them a bit sure, but still prioritize damage.
I think a 1 level dip in barbarian is great. Get a +4 to strength and con when you need it and faster movement all the time with only a one level delay on fighter specific feats and weapon training.
screw that just play a viking archetype fighter.
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I prefer to not play paladins whenever possible. There are too many ways for a miscommunication between you and the DM to make you fall. Cha is usually a dump stat for fighter anyway.
Cha is a dump stat for a fighter, UNLESS you have paladin levels.
If you have paladin levels, then Wis is the dump stat. It's fine, since you get the +3 Will Save from two levels of paladin, and your 14 Cha at +2 all saves off sets the -1 Wisdom, netting you at +4 Wis vs +3, and you saved the General feat.
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No need to be snarky about everyone having all good saves. Just realize a few things.
Fighters are supposed to be the core martial. They are the only martial that doesn't get any effective save boosters from their CLASS. Rangers have two good saves, Paladins have 2 good+Cha+spells, Barbs have Raging Will + Superstitious.
Fighters can't even spend their combat feats on save boosters. They literally have no defensive abilities against spells or magic, which is INSANE for a non-magical class priding itself on martial excellence.
==Aelryinth
They literally have no defensive abilities against spells or magic, which is INSANE for a non-magical class priding itself on martial excellence.They get Will save bonuses vs fear. That's something.
Bravery is a piddling bonus on its own, and it really looks like a joke next to Aura of Courage. You gain a higher bonus against fear just from standing near the Paladin until level 14 (when they're tied).
At least Bravery, as an untyped bonus, would stack with it.
Meanwhile, the Paladin himself is immune to fear, has a good Will save, and at 11th level can spend a feat to extend his Aura of Courage to a 20' radius that provides full fear immunity to all allies.
The reason that the fighter basically NEEDS iron will means that something is not good witht he class.
"Yeah, we totally give you all those feat to use in whatever you want, but if you do not take this and that other feats you are screw, enjoy."
If my figther takes a 2 level dip i think it will be monk. Saves, 4feats, evasion and usefull skills added to the list. Only problem is not to take 2 more to get Ki pool and really be behind on the figther stuff:)
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They literally have no defensive abilities against spells or magic, which is INSANE for a non-magical class priding itself on martial excellence.They get Will save bonuses vs fear. That's something.
Let the caster drop Prot. Evil on them if he doesn't want his BDF to become someone else's BDF.
Bravery is a laughable joke so pathetic it'd be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it's presented as actually being meaningful in some way.
I see 2 level dips in Master of Many Styles more than Inquisitor though. The Fighter gets cool tricks, boosts to his saves, and generally whatever he picks up from those dips allows him or her to keep doing what they do better instead of diverging into a whole new playstyle or combat subsystem with spellcasting and domains. It's a dip that's effectively worth, what, 5 or 6 feats? +3 Ref, +3 Will, 2 bonus feats, Imp. Unarmed Strike, potentially Evasion...
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Bravery is a laughable joke so pathetic it'd be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it's presented as actually being meaningful in some way.
It makes me wonder how could they still put again bravery on the duelist in the first versino of duelits?, that abilty is so silly that should never get printed again.
Or, you know, you can build a character that gets charmed/dominated every once in a while.
The way some people harp on this, you'd think it's being thrown around 2-3 times a session. Frankly, I wouldn't play a fighter in a game like that.
And blinded, charmed, paralized, fatigued, fooled by an illusion or the lots of other conditions that cant totally screw the fighter´s life.
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It makes me wonder how could they still put again bravery on the duelist in the first versino of duelits?, that abilty is so silly that should never get printed again.
Bravery is a laughable joke so pathetic it'd be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it's presented as actually being meaningful in some way.
The problem is that the Fighter gets 3 major class features besides his bonus feats, and two of those, Armor Training and Bravery, have very limited application.
Armor Training actually makes the Fighter even more MAD if he actually wants to keep his Dex high enough for it to continue to scale and actually be providing a benefit, and Bravery... I have never actually been in a situation where Bravery made any difference at all. It's a very situational ability that only works against one effect and still isn't as good as just having 2 good saves would have been. Just look at the Viking archetype where they didn't even try to pretend that the thing they were replacing Bravery with needed to be of the same efficacy. Or the fact that 9 of the 12 archetypes in the APG trade it away and generally give stuff that is arguably way better and far more likely to be used in its place.
The reason that the fighter basically NEEDS iron will means that something is not good witht he class.
"Yeah, we totally give you all those feat to use in whatever you want, but if you do not take this and that other feats you are screw, enjoy."
This is why I just HR good will saves on fighters.
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It makes me wonder how could they still put again bravery on the duelist in the first versino of duelits?, that abilty is so silly that should never get printed again.
Bravery is a laughable joke so pathetic it'd be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that it's presented as actually being meaningful in some way.The problem is that the Fighter gets 3 major class features besides his bonus feats, and two of those, Armor Training and Bravery, have very limited application.
Armor Training actually makes the Fighter even more MAD if he actually wants to keep his Dex high enough for it to continue to scale and actually be providing a benefit, and Bravery... I have never actually been in a situation where Bravery made any difference at all. It's a very situational ability that only works against one effect and still isn't as good as just having 2 good saves would have been. Just look at the Viking archetype where they didn't even try to pretend that the thing they were replacing Bravery with needed to be of the same efficacy. Or the fact that 9 of the 12 archetypes in the APG trade it away and generally give stuff that is arguably way better and far more likely to be used in its place.
I disagree on armor training. Just the speed thing make the ability at least "ok" and if you do not want/need a high dex/AC then there are archetypes for it,.
By the other hand, with bravery I can not see how that ability is a something more than a really bad joke.
This is why I just HR good will saves on fighters.The reason that the fighter basically NEEDS iron will means that something is not good witht he class.
"Yeah, we totally give you all those feat to use in whatever you want, but if you do not take this and that other feats you are screw, enjoy."
My (still on work) house rule is diferent.
Fist bravery get caled resilience.
then it work more or less like favored enemy but the player choise conditions instead of monsters types, and it gives +2s to the saves instead of +1s
For example at level 10, the player coudl have choosen poison, charms and fatighed effects, and have a bonus on the saves +6/+4/+2.
Armor Training is completely replaced by mithril early and celestial armor later.
Armor Mastery is basically replaced by mithral early, and since you're going to take mithral armor that stacks with a dex bonus over adamantine armor that doesn't stack with your class capstone, it's irrelevant at the higher level.
And Dwarves get Armor Mastery for FREE as a racial ability. 9th level class ability, at level 0. Yep.
==Aelryinth
Armor Training is completely replaced by mithril early and celestial armor later.
Armor Mastery is basically replaced by mithral early, and since you're going to take mithral armor that stacks with a dex bonus over adamantine armor that doesn't stack with your class capstone, it's irrelevant at the higher level.
And Dwarves get Armor Mastery for FREE as a racial ability. 9th level class ability, at level 0. Yep.
==Aelryinth
You are confusing names but whatever.
A mithral breastplate is 5000 gp, more money than the +2 breastplate, the fighter have 10% more ac right there witht he same mobility. The same with full plates. And what if you find and uber adamatine full plate? The fighter get more use of it.
Dwarves do not get the dex thing, but if you do not care about it then take an archetypes that replace it, I do not see th eproblem here. The "core" only option is not enough for dwarves, but I think there are enough optiosn out there.
THe adamantine thing is really silly however.
It's REALLY hard for me not to jump in on the chorus of how awful the Fighter is. But since the o.p. is about one (partial) remedy for it via Inquisitor dip, is that a bad idea and why?- &/or do you have a better alternative? Thanks for any on topic advice.
Or someone could start another thread about how hard the Fighter sucks.