Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Generally speaking, Pc's can qualify for stuff in the beastiary. there is no game hard rule denying players access to those feats. Though ive always felt it was something that should be discussed with the DM before hand.
Really, if you dont want him to have multi attack or want the beastiary feats to be on a special case basis then its your call as DM. but there is no game rule about it.
Right in the desription of Eidolons actually:
Multiattack
An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
The eidolon gains this ability at Summoner level 9, so since he only has 11 evo points I assume there is still a little bit to go. But really, if he just progresses according to the rules he will end up with the feat anyways - so there is probably no harm in letting him have it...
Send something with DR his way and do an evil GM laugh :P
Actually, I am assuming the OP was referring to Multi Weapon fighting since the Eidolon has taken the limbs evolution multiple times.
Actually, I am assuming the OP was referring to Multi Weapon fighting since the Eidolon has taken the limbs evolution multiple times.
That actually makes sense ^^
HIs Eidolons has 11 evolution points (summoner used the chosen class optional rule for half elf summoner that boosts evolution by 25%)
Whoa there! The Favored Class option adds one-quarter of point to his Evolution Pool each time he takes that option when gaining a level. That's one extra point per four levels of Summoner, not a 25% boost.
Is this PFS or home game? I assume home game, but its good to ask anyway as some do PFS as home play instead of coming up with their own stuff.
1. The feat name is multiweapon fighting. It specifically says it replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms. As DM its your call, but the feat is supposed to kick in for any creature that wants to take twf and has more than 2 arms, so really you should (this is a much weaker version of an eidolon anyway as they can get more damage from a natural attacker, and its way cheaper).
2. As worded, it REPLACES but does not COUNT as TWF. This means that as worded he cannot bennifit from Double Slice as that requires TWF not MWF. However, again, as the DM you are welcome to say thats dumb and it counts as TWF for feat purposes. Just be careful with that, you might specifically disallow the imp/grt twf feats. That was the agreement my DM and I came up with for mine.
If it were PFS the answer would be clear then in that the feats in the beastiary books are not allowed material.
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HIs Eidolons has 11 evolution points (summoner used the chosen class optional rule for half elf summoner that boosts evolution by 25%)Whoa there! The Favored Class option adds one-quarter of point to his Evolution Pool each time he takes that option when gaining a level. That's one extra point per four levels of Summoner, not a 25% boost.
1/4th is 25%.
HIs Eidolons has 11 evolution points (summoner used the chosen class optional rule for half elf summoner that boosts evolution by 25%)Whoa there! The Favored Class option adds one-quarter of point to his Evolution Pool each time he takes that option when gaining a level. That's one extra point per four levels of Summoner, not a 25% boost.1/4th is 25%.
As a math teacher I would like to send a Gibbs slap from NCIS....no 1/4th is not 25% in this case based on the OP's wording. It is an extra 25% of a point but it does not boost evolution by 25% (that would imply you multiply by 1.25 to boost by 25%). Mathematically the difference in his wording is wrong. When we use math terms we should use them appropriately :-P
Ok, teacher moment over, I think only Richard was really wanting to correct the guy...I had let it slide by. Yours..I couldn't resist a little humor.
No, no, no. It is obviously 9/32.
Anyway, it seems like eidolons are always quite the trobulemakers, no? Well, I suppose that we could compare them to another, similar class feature: animal companions.
While we all know that an animal companion can take any feat it can qualify for if you raise its INT to 3, the base feat allowed to them represent abilities it can master based off of its physical form alone. You can see that they are not allowed to simply take multiattack (and other feats, such as ability focus) even if they would be able to be trained into such skills phsyically. From that, you can take it as a general guide that bestiary feats could possibly be restricted from 'monstrous' allies gained through class abilities.
Although, as it has been stated, this character is just a couple of levels away from getting the feat for free anyway. Why not let them burn a resource?
Using Lots of weapons will be less fun as he levels up and bad guys start having DR. But normally i would suggest a GM to supervise the summoner extra close. And if the player is not up to playing an "advanced" class tell him to rebuilt as a sorcerer.
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Shfish . Why is the light weapon relevant
I know it is for TWF BUT i dont think it is for MWFUnder MWF we have:
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
ie ignore everything under TWF and just use these rules.And MWF says only:
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.
No. You're wrong. You still have to reference the penalties in the TWF section, except in this case, they apply to all off-hand attacks.
EDIT: the MWF feat even tells you to reference the TWF section in the combat chapter.
@ richard Denning - the table in the PRD is not part of the TWF feat. a character can fight with more than one weapon no matter what. there's nothing stopping this. you dont need TWF to fight with two or more weapons.
the only difference between fighting with 8 arms and fighting with 2 is how many attacks you get. period. if the player has multi-weapon fighting and is using all light weapons the penalties are -2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2.
as far as weather of not his eidolon can take the feat, well its a monster, not a character, so there's that, but also, sense this isn't a PFS game, there's nothing stopping a player from taking a bestiary feat except the GM as long as he qualifies for it. having more than 2 arms qualifies you for MWF, so yes, he can take it.
Right in the desription of Eidolons actually:
Multiattack
An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
The eidolon gains this ability at Summoner level 9, so since he only has 11 evo points I assume there is still a little bit to go. But really, if he just progresses according to the rules he will end up with the feat anyways - so there is probably no harm in letting him have it...
Send something with DR his way and do an evil GM laugh :P
Mmmm im wondering if multiattack is even legal for this guy unless someone can show me 3 or more natural attacks his creature has? Able to swing a sword doesnt qualify does it? The player put hands and not claws/etc on those limbs so i dont think it can use multiattack unless they actually took the feag for it.
Mmmm im wondering if multiattack is even legal for this guy unless someone can show me 3 or more natural attacks his creature has? Able to swing a sword doesnt qualify does it? The player put hands and not claws/etc on those limbs so i dont think it can use multiattack unless they actually took the feag for it.Right in the desription of Eidolons actually:
Multiattack
An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.
The eidolon gains this ability at Summoner level 9, so since he only has 11 evo points I assume there is still a little bit to go. But really, if he just progresses according to the rules he will end up with the feat anyways - so there is probably no harm in letting him have it...
Send something with DR his way and do an evil GM laugh :P
the OP corrected saying it was multi-weapon fighting, not multiattack.
Not for the eidolon. Its clear for everything else, but not them. They are a summoned creature, summoned creatures can use feats from the bestiaries. The additional options page spells out all other pets, but not the eidolon. I only point this out because it really is an oversight on their part after 3+ years of the pet being allowed to not specify if it can or not. I have posted this before. They still haven't changed it. To me that means they can. I expect table variance. If they hand meant them not to, they would have added it in the last 3+ years...
Im not sure if you are confusing the normal game rules with PFS rules but you are 100% in correct. the nature of summoned creatures is irrelevant. an Eidolon is a /pet/ its a class feature whos feats are decided by a player. Without explicit text in either the rulebook saying 'the eidolon can take X and Y feats from the beastiary' It cannot do so in PFS. This text doesnt exist in the rulebook because normally the eidolon can take these feats, this is different from animal companions which are animals and have to have their feats explicitly listed.
Anyhow, in PFS Eidolons cannot take /any/ feats from the beastiary their nature as quasi summoned creatures has no bearing on this. the fact that no texts exists likely is not an over-site. There are already power ussiues with Eidolons and making them more special snowflakes and allowing them access to feats banned for everone else would just create issues.
Its unfortunate as there /are/ alot of eidolon concepts that can use MWF
Richard Denning, using a light weapon in the off hand reduces the penalty of Two Weapon Fighting by 2. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Two Weapon Fighting feat. This is just by using the Two Weapon Fighting option - Which is NOT the same as the feat and DOES NOT require the feat to use.
The Two Weapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
Is replaced with:
The Mutiweapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
See how they are the same thing?
i already beat you to that Komoda :)
Richard Denning, using a light weapon in the off hand reduces the penalty of Two Weapon Fighting by 2. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Two Weapon Fighting feat. This is just by using the Two Weapon Fighting option - Which is NOT the same as the feat and DOES NOT require the feat to use.
The Two Weapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
Is replaced with:
The Mutiweapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
See how they are the same thing?
The difference is that multi weapon fighting (ie attacking with multiple arms above 2) does not care wether your off hand weapons are light or not.
Why not?
I didn't read the whole thread, but I did note that this is for a home game:
The eidolon has available to him whatever feats you say he has available. Generally speaking, the books state that the Beastiary feats can be taken by monsters, and an eidolon effectively qualifies as a very complex summoned monster. But that doesn't mean you have to allow it.
However, if you bar it, in my opinion as a GM you should allow him to rebuild his eidolon. He appears to have been working toward this build specifically to utilize that feat, and since you didn't ix-nay the feat at the outset it's somewhat unfairly penalizing to pull it away at this point without giving him a chance to rebuild his creature for some other fighting method.
Well under the feat it says
": A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)"
That seems to suggest those are the penalties regardless of what you are wielding. However, the TWF explanation gives no further details and if a more detailed explanation is given anywhere I am un-aware of it.
However, I could be wrong.
If it's a huge issue, the easiest fix is to let him know that the Eidolon Max # of attacks on the Table you wish to have apply to all attacks period.(Natural and/or Manufactured)
Alternately, just say No.
IMO trying to dodge the limit is abusive and shouldn't be allowed. The summoner is already plenty strong without it.
The difference is that multi weapon fighting (ie attacking with multiple arms above 2) does not care wether your off hand weapons are light or not.Richard Denning, using a light weapon in the off hand reduces the penalty of Two Weapon Fighting by 2. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Two Weapon Fighting feat. This is just by using the Two Weapon Fighting option - Which is NOT the same as the feat and DOES NOT require the feat to use.
The Two Weapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
Is replaced with:
The Mutiweapon Fighting Feat Reduces the penalty of fighting with two weapons by -2 / -6
See how they are the same thing?
yes it does, because multi-weapon fighting (not the feat) is governed by the same rules as two-weapon fighting (not the feat). all off-hands must be wielding light weapons in order to reduce the penalties for attacking with them. if this were not the case (as you seem to be claiming) then there would be nothing stopping me from using a 1H weapon in my main hand, a light weapon in my off-hand, and 2H weapons in all the rest...thats retarded and obviously not how it works.
Yes there is no restriction on any Eidolon purchasing limbs that i am aware of.
yes it does, because multi-weapon fighting (not the feat) is governed by the same rules as two-weapon fighting (not the feat). all off-hands must be wielding light weapons in order to reduce the penalties for attacking with them. if this were not the case (as you seem to be claiming) then there would be nothing stopping me from using a 1H weapon in my main hand, a light weapon in my off-hand, and 2H weapons in all the rest...thats retarded and obviously not how it works.The difference is that multi weapon fighting (ie attacking with multiple arms above 2) does not care wether your off hand weapons are light or not.
Two things, First Is I was going by what the multi weapon fighting feat said. However i looked and saw that the TWF feat references the same text. So my conclusion was likely wrong.
Secondly, im not sure what the reference to 2h weapons etc, has to do with anything i said. I had simply been under the impression (now likely wrong as I said) that multi weapon fighting treated everything as if you had a non light offhand.
Im pretty sure you cannot actually multi weapon fight with 2h weapons in your off hand. Although if you could i am not sure what the point would be as they would still be secondary weapons.
but thats a discussion for another time.
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***Anyhow, in PFS Eidolons cannot take /any/ feats from the beastiary their nature as quasi summoned creatures has no bearing on this. ***
Just to qualify that a bit, they can't take Bestiary feats unless they are granted by another legal source. So if a book like the APG or UM lists a Bestiary feat as a valid option, then you can take it.