A weird question random question that came up in my head. I'm surprised there's very little information about the Aboleth despite them having a large yet subtle impact on Golerion.
Aboleth predate gods, but they're clearly creatures of the material plane.
I think they probably do, but considering that aboleths don't worship any gods they probably behave differently from other souls.
I have a suspicion that they don't go to the Boneyard for judgement by Pharasma.
Still, I'd be interested in seeing the correct answer.
*As an aside I believe all intelligent creatures have or are souls and this should apply to aboleths as well. Only outsiders lack body soul duality, but they are more a soul made flesh.
According to the planar book, atheists are trapped in Pharasma's graveyard for all eternity. That's a gray area with Aboleth, because they do acknowledge the existence of gods -- they simply view them as very powerful young entities. So if Aboleth have souls, they'd likely go to Hell or get trapped in the boneyard.
I also find it strange that some modules tie Aboleth to the Dark Tapestry when Dark Tapestry gods are almost exclusively chaos-aligned.
All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.
That was easy to reason out James, but what happens to them at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)
All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.
Ah, thanks! I wondered because I remember Kingmaker mentioning First World creatures don't have souls, so I wondered if something as primordial as an aboleth would also be exempt. On the other hand, only one source mentions that First Worlders don't have souls. And even then, even First World natives have souls if born on the Material Plane.
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.That was easy to reason out James, but what happens to them at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)
Same thing that happens to other athiest souls; they're judged, and if they succeed they become wandering spirits and if they fail, they go to the Boneyard. Pharasma doesn't make much of a difference between an aboleth soul and any other soul.
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.Ah, thanks! I wondered because I remember Kingmaker mentioning First World creatures don't have souls, so I wondered if something as primordial as an aboleth would also be exempt. On the other hand, only one source mentions that First Worlders don't have souls. And even then, even First World natives have souls if born on the Material Plane.
That's a bit of flavor that might be in error... since no soul = can't be resurrected, and soul & body being one = only true resurrection works. The latter is what affects outsiders. Fey, the primary things from the First World, can be brought back from the dead normally, and therefore they have to have souls.
Wow, that had formed the basis of my understanding of the difference of Gnomes vs. Fey, that Gnomes had somehow gained a Soul. Oh well... I guess since alot of Setting material is somewhat "in-character/in-game-world perspective", some of it could just be wrong, even if people in the setting believe it.
Same thing that happens to other athiest souls; they're judged, and if they succeed they become wandering spirits and if they fail, they go to the Boneyard. Pharasma doesn't make much of a difference between an aboleth soul and any other soul.All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.That was easy to reason out James, but what happens to them at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)
Cool, I bet they aren't happy about that.
Interesting. Yeah, I thought that was rather weird about fey. I'm glad that's cleared up. I guess the fate of each aboleth hinges on how godly they consider the gods.
This is really useful stuff for my campaign.
|
I guess since a lot of Setting material is somewhat "in-character/in-game-world perspective", some of it could just be wrong, even if people in the setting believe it.
That's how I always handle anything like this. I actually like to have a little misinformation floating around, competing theories. Makes the setting feel a little more "living."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aboleths claim to predate the gods. Much like the Books of the Damned, the narrator may be unreliable.
@The NPC I honestly have doubts that the gods are in fact creators but rather particularly powerful outsiders.
Granted this is a semantic argument.
If I remember my lore correctly, and I may not, there is a creator god that formed the multiverse from chaos. Apsu and Tiamat were two beings that existed outside of time and the known multiverse and together created them. So there are original creator gods in the Pathfinder universe. However, the current gods of Golarion are not those gods and have arisen from other places. They are very powerful outsiders, though they also are more than that. How one defines that difference I guess is the important part, and that is why the Rahadoumi people practice atheism as they assert that the "gods" are only powerful outsiders.
What happens to [Aboleths] at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)Same thing that happens to other athiest souls; they're judged, and if they succeed they become wandering spirits and if they fail, they go to the Boneyard. Pharasma doesn't make much of a difference between an aboleth soul and any other soul.
Is it really explicitly confirmed that Aboleths are 'atheists' in the sense of rejecting their soul being sent to an aligned plane? Not worshipping/recognizing gods is clear enough, but that doesn't impose any restriction on what happens to souls after death. I hadn't really ever seen anything specific to them taking an extreme position re: soul afterlife. If they do for some reason, was that always so, or was it a cultural shift at some point, and some Aboleths (or "proto Aboleths") previously may not cared about that (or not known of it, until their soul reaches that point)?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a polytheistic setting so chances there where multiple gods contributing to creation. Desna is one of them. My impression from reading the lore is that the gods created the multiverse or at least the material plane, stuff (read beginnings of life) started forming and the gods tok an active hand in shaping it or creating new forms of it.
PLEASE let's not confuse real-world definitions of atheism and cultural context of religion with Golarion's.
I don't believe anybody in Golarion hangs the gods' importance on being involved in creation of the world. Plenty of gods who are newly elevated or recently arrived have just as solid of following. The one God tied to at least being present at the creation of the universe, if not having created it himself, is Asmodeus, who doesn't seem to have a particularly large global following.
This is a polytheistic setting so chances there where multiple gods contributing to creation. Desna is one of them. My impression from reading the lore is that the gods created the multiverse or at least the material plane, stuff (read beginnings of life) started forming and the gods tok an active hand in shaping it or creating new forms of it.
Based on what I've read on Golariopedia I think there is an important distinction to make here. Apsu created the multiverse with Tiamat. The gods of golarion (some of the current gods and maybe others) created the planet of Golarion and maybe some other things in the material plane, but did not create the material plane. Desna, instead of creating Golarion shaped the heavens into what they are, though it's not clear if she made the plane or simply gave it the form it currently has. Aspu and Tiamat are somehow responsible (perhaps indirectly) for the creation of the gods that created Golarion and shaped the multiverse, though how isn't made clear.
The one God tied to at least being present at the creation of the universe, if not having created it himself, is Asmodeus, who doesn't seem to have a particularly large global following.
Based on the lore of Golariopedia this doesn't appear quite true, or at least what the lore says isn't clear. Asmodeus is credited with the "Contract of Creation" but I think this refers to the equivalent lore of that other similar gaming universe in which a "god" by the same name created the Pact Primeval. This was not the creation of the multiverse or universe, but just some specific things within. However, insufficient information is given to truly clarify. It is however made clear that Apsu and Tiamat are credited with the actual creation of the multiverse, so it seems likely Asmodeus was created as a result of their work and that he did not exist at the beginning of "creation".
Same thing that happens to other athiest souls; they're judged, and if they succeed they become wandering spirits and if they fail, they go to the Boneyard. Pharasma doesn't make much of a difference between an aboleth soul and any other soul.All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.That was easy to reason out James, but what happens to them at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)
And now I wonder what happens to the souls of animals and vermin. And if this means Groetus is sitting on a huge pile of the souls of vermin.
And now I wonder what happens to the souls of animals and vermin. And if this means Groetus is sitting on a huge pile of the souls of vermin.Same thing that happens to other athiest souls; they're judged, and if they succeed they become wandering spirits and if they fail, they go to the Boneyard. Pharasma doesn't make much of a difference between an aboleth soul and any other soul.All living creatures have souls. This includes the aboleths.That was easy to reason out James, but what happens to them at death? Inquiring minds want to know :)
I think it's been stated somewhere only intelligent creatures (int >= 3) have or are a soul (ghosts), but I may be mistaken.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since successful atheists become intangible, and unsuccessful atheists become immobile, someone just looking at petitioners and finding no aboleths among them might reasonably (but erroneously) come to the conclusion that aboleths (and indeed any atheists) have no souls. The aboleths themselves might even believe they have no souls, thus reinforcing their atheism.
I'd be inclined to assume that animal souls are just continually recycled.
Not to continue on a tangent, Fey Revisited also alludes to Fey not having "souls", at least in the same sense that mortals have them.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd say Aboleth ARE soles
This is a serious thread; no need to fillet with silly posts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...Aboleths must be really, really angry about being inescapably subject to the judgements of a god.
This is an awesome thread.
Also,
Golariopedia
... is one problem you may be running into if you find yourself conflicted on lore.
Pathfinder Wiki is the better one.
(By a fair margin.)
Golariopedia is severely outdated, loud, and has obnoxious adds. Pathfinder Wiki by contrast has no adds, and is continually updated/checked. Golariopedia has been attempted to be closed by the original creators (most all of whom have since gone on to Pathfinder Wiki) but, sadly, Wikia is being pretty terrible and refusing to allow deleted pages to stay deleted, and then booting people who delete them, despite those people being the ones that created the page.
Seriously, go with Pathfinder Wiki instead. No reason to give Wikia any sort of patronage, as they're actively violating their own terms.
EDIT 2: I used to use Golariopedia all the time. I understand the appeal. It's lost all appeal as I've slowly learned how Wikia has treated the creators of Golariopedia. They keep Golariopedia up only because it brings ad revenue. :(
EDIT 2 (try 2): I used to frequent Golariopedia. I do understand the appeal. However, I've been consistently burned - it keeps promising things and never delivering. And it's being maintained by Wikia exclusively because it brings in add revenue... which is why Wikia continually restores deleted articles and boots people who delete them.
EDIT: speaking of, Pathfinder Wiki's featured article is pretty timely!
Uh... I don't know what's happening with my edits not appearing, then appearing. I'm... leaving that post alone.
Also, James, do Aboleths routinely find ways around dying?
I think aboleths are one of those creatures with no natural lifespan.
I wondered because I remember Kingmaker mentioning First World creatures don't have souls.That's a bit of flavor that might be in error... since no soul = can't be resurrected, and soul & body being one = only true resurrection works. The latter is what affects outsiders. Fey, the primary things from the First World, can be brought back from the dead normally, and therefore they have to have souls.
Hmm. This might end up being one of the very few setting details that I have decided the developers are just plain wrong about.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aspu and Tiamat are somehow responsible (perhaps indirectly) for the creation of the gods that created Golarion and shaped the multiverse, though how isn't made clear.
There are competing creation myths. Asmodeus says he and his brother were the first two gods, spontaneously coming into being and going on to shape the universe along with younger gods who eventually came along. Of course, Asmodeus isn't the most reliable source of information, but it's fleshed out a little more than Apsu and Tiamat's story.
|
I'd be inclined to assume that animal souls are just continually recycled.
Not to continue on a tangent, Fey Revisited also alludes to Fey not having "souls", at least in the same sense that mortals have them.
I think I remember that specific line being called out as in error. I know that was my assumption, since only fey born on the First World have ever been referred to as lacking conventional souls(and Golarion-born fey had been shown functioning just like everyone else, what with nymph ghosts and whatnot).
The First World fey are still established as having something similar though, considering certain plot twists.
Maybe it's basically the same thing but with a different "default" life-death-rebirth/reincarnation cycle?
|
Creative Director
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again... fey have souls. Obviously that error keeps creeping in to text here, so I need to send out an all-hands email or something here at Paizo... but the simple fact of the matter is that we have established rules for how things who don't have souls work (most importantly, that they can't be brought back to life easily). That ability is one that things like constructs and undead and outsiders have variants on, but fey do not and have never had it.
They can certainly have "soul-identical" but not exactly soul spirit elements, but unless we change the fundamental rules and change several already existing encounters in various adventures where fey are treated as if having souls... that bit of inaccurate flavor text is not one we're going to be able to support.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like to think of it as the First World having one vast nigh-infinite soul that's just playing at being individuals. Killing part of it outside its realm might cause that part to go poof, or might allow it back to be recycled into a near-identical version, but it never gets out to the Astral Plane or the Boneyard; the gods lost interest in the First World partly because of this.
But that's just my headcanon.
Aboleths in my world split as part of their reproduction cycle, gaining the memories of both parents. The 'soul' also parts into multiple bodies. By the way, mine are of both sexes at the same time. After 'mating', the parents each births a new Aboleth or more. Maturity isn't for a few dozen centuries.