Can a swift action happen while a character is doing a full-round action?
EG: A paladin charges and takes damage from moving from a readied action/AoO, can the paladin use LoH before he finishes the charge? or must he wait until the full-round action of the charge is completely finished (movement and attack) before being able to swift action?
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full-round action specifically says you CAN make a swift/free/immediate action during it. so yes.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all
your effort during a round. The only movement you can
take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before,
during, or after the action. You can also perform free
actions
and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a
list of full-round actions.
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a
5-foot step.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions,
but only in situations when you are limited to performing
only a standard action during your round. The descriptions
of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.
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I believe you have to resolve the charge first, before using LoH as your swift action.
Now a Charge is a "Special Full-Round Action"... whatever special implies. Just an observation there.
I'm not really sure though, to be honest.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
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I believe you have to resolve the charge first, before using LoH as your swift action.Why?Initial thoughts on it, since I can't find any RAW on it. If it's incorrect, then please tell me "why" so I can stop thinking the initial thought. Should be easy :)
Thanks in advance!!
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
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You can take the swift action before or after, but not during, the charge. Once the attack resolves and the reactionary actions complete, then you can LoH. I believe the enemy being charged gets the OoA before you can LoH, if you didn't do it before the charge.
I believe this is different than a full attack or simular full round action, where you can LoH durring the attack. (Say the enemy was attacking you for each attack you do through a feat)
Please, for anyone out there, correct me if I am wrong.
The games rules are set up about general rules specific exceptions. The charge action would have to specifically disallow swift or imediate actions for them to not be usable.
You do have to use a little sense, otherwise you get that fellow who was trying to change combat styles (because it's a free action for a MoMS) between the attack roll and the roll for damage.
As Jiggy posted, since you can take a Swift action any time you can take a free action and free actions can be taken at any time on your turn, including during other actions, the Paladin should be able to LOH themselves during the charge action.
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You do have to use a little sense, otherwise you get that fellow who was trying to change combat styles (because it's a free action for a MoMS) between the attack roll and the roll for damage.
That is sort of along the lines of why my initial thought of how it operated occurred. I assume that once you start an action, you need to finish it through before using a different action. It just seems logical to me...
Which is why I asked for whomever to provide something stating otherwise, so that I can break free of that thought process if necessary.
I think there's a bit of difference between using a swift action while moving (part of a charge), and using one between succeeding on an attack and the damage that stems from that.
The full-round action rules say that you may take a swift action, before, after, or during, and the charge rules include nothing to override that section, so it follows that you can take a swift action at any point during your charge.
Regarding the swapping stances between an attack and the damage thing...I'd say that there isn't anything in the rules that I can think of that would say you CAN'T do that, but my feeling is that they are only divided in game terms. That is, taking a swift action during a full-round action like charging works because a full-round action isn't a real thing, it's just there to help the game flow. In reality, you're taking a minor action while running, before swinging a weapon, or after, whereas damage simply occurs as a result of an attack--you cannot separate those, at least not with a real action, to my mind.
I know that there are some abilities that DO occur between the attack and its damage, but those all seem to be immediate actions (explicitly designed to interrupt another action), and physically more minor than Lay On Hands would be.
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With what has been proffered, I believe you can use LoH after the movement of a charge, before you complete your attack. The movement is still an action and needs to complete before you actually do the swift action.
I agree with Bizbag about how it should be, though, as it is a special full round action, almost like a combat manuver, which would fit with my previous post.
Thank you, Jiggy, for the CRB quotes.
Just as a thought experiment, let's postulate a character with one of those abilities that lets him stand up from prone as a swift action. Such a character charges and gets tripped by an AoO. Can he stand as a swift action and still complete the charge ?
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With what has been proffered, I believe you can use LoH after the movement of a charge, before you complete your attack. The movement is still an action and needs to complete before you actually do the swift action.
Where are you getting that idea? The rule I cited earlier doesn't say "between" actions, it says "while taking other actions". You can take a free or swift action during other actions; a perfect example of this would be the ability for anyone with at least +1 BAB to draw a weapon as a free action during a regular move. Not before or after, but during.
So how are you coming to the conclusion that you have to wait for your movement to complete before you can take a free or swift action, when that directly contradicts multiple plainly-written rules?
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Just as a thought experiment, let's postulate a character with one of those abilities that lets him stand up from prone as a swift action. Such a character charges and gets tripped by an AoO. Can he stand as a swift action and still complete the charge ?
I'm not completely sure, but it sounds AWESOME. :D
Just as a thought experiment, let's postulate a character with one of those abilities that lets him stand up from prone as a swift action. Such a character charges and gets tripped by an AoO. Can he stand as a swift action and still complete the charge ?
I believe that being tripped ends the movement action, so while he could use the swift action to get right back up, he was still tripped, so his movement did end.
You do have to use a little sense, otherwise you get that fellow who was trying to change combat styles (because it's a free action for a MoMS) between the attack roll and the roll for damage.
I don't think that's the same situation, because those are two rolls representing the same event: a single attack. Even still, your friends can take immediate actions between your attack roll and your damage roll. (Can you use Timely Inspiration on yourself?)
The charge consists of movement and an attack, so it would be easy and logical to take a free action (like start rage) or a swift action (like Arcane Strike) while you're running in to attack.
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Some things are single items, though, that can't be "interrupted".
So what are the component parts of "I walk over there as a move action" between which "I draw my weapon as a free action during my movement" occurs?
It seems as though you're under the impression that the ability to take free/swift actions during a charge is something special about the charge action or maybe full-round actions in general. Did you miss that the rule allowing free-swift actions during other actions is a global rule that applies to actions in general, including standards and moves?
How many standard actions or move actions have multiple component parts that you need to wedge your free actions in between?
The charge consists of movement and an attack, so it would be easy and logical to take a free action (like start rage) or a swift action (like Arcane Strike) while you're running in to attack.
In those two cases, that's functionally the same as raging or activating arcane strike first before beginning your charge, so that's certainly OK.
edit: fixed quote tags
As Jiggy posted, since you can take a Swift action any time you can take a free action and free actions can be taken at any time on your turn, including during other actions, the Paladin should be able to LOH themselves during the charge action.
Why not? They can do many other things during a charge. For example, if a charging paladin provokes an attack of opportunity from an orc, and the orc foolishly tries to trip the paladin, thus provoking an attack of opportunity himself, the paladin could attack and kill the orc, then continue his charge as if nothing happened. Touching himself during the charge ought to be far simpler.
Because there's no rule that says you can take another action of any kind during a charge. RAW is not based on what you CAN'T do, it's what you CAN do.I believe you have to resolve the charge first, before using LoH as your swift action.Why?Initial thoughts on it, since I can't find any RAW on it. If it's incorrect, then please tell me "why" so I can stop thinking the initial thought. Should be easy :)
Thanks in advance!!
Actually there is. A charge is still defined as a full-round action. The rules on swift/free actions state that they can be made DURING a full-round action. Therefore it can be done at any time from the moment you start moving until you finish swinging your weapon.
As to the tripping stopping a charge, again, this is incorrect. If you Can't get us after being tripped because you don't have the action to do so, then yes. But if you have the ability to get back up as a swift action, then nothing has interrupted your ability to continue to move. Imagine I'm sprinting at you and half way there someone sticks out a foot and I trip on it, but instead of galling flat on my fave, I instead do a tuck-and-roll and continue back onto my feet. I van still keep running at you, can't I?
Why not?
Um Why not what? I was agreeing with Jiggy. A Paladin CAN use LOH on themselves as a swift action DURING a Charge 'special full round action'.
For example, if a charging paladin provokes an attack of opportunity from an orc, and the orc foolishly tries to trip the paladin, thus provoking an attack of opportunity himself...
I believe an attack of opportunity cannot, itself, cause the target of that AOO to get an AOO on the originator, so your example would not be valid.
I believe that was either in the core rules or clarified in an FAQ or by a dev, specifically to handle the 'infinite attach chain' problem created by two people attacking each other with hand to hand attacks if neither one had Improved Unarmed Strike. Every swing by one would give the other an AOO ad infinitum.
Imagine I'm sprinting at you and half way there someone sticks out a foot and I trip on it, but instead of galling flat on my fave, I instead do a tuck-and-roll and continue back onto my feet. I van still keep running at you, can't I?While I don't necessarily disagree with your rules interpretation, this example could just as easily be the result of a failed trip attempt (since your dexterity does add to your CMD).
A failed trip would be me kicking at your feet and missing entirely. A miss as defined in this game is making no contact at all with an attack.
Why not?Um Why not what? I was agreeing with Jiggy. A Paladin CAN use LOH on themselves as a swift action DURING a Charge 'special full round action'.
For example, if a charging paladin provokes an attack of opportunity from an orc, and the orc foolishly tries to trip the paladin, thus provoking an attack of opportunity himself...I believe an attack of opportunity cannot, itself, cause the target of that AOO to get an AOO on the originator, so your example would not be valid.
I believe that was either in the core rules or clarified in an FAQ or by a dev, specifically to handle the 'infinite attach chain' problem created by two people attacking each other with hand to hand attacks if neither one had Improved Unarmed Strike. Every swing by one would give the other an AOO ad infinitum.
There are plenty of ways to get an AoO from an AoO. Look at snake style feat chain, panther style, original crane style, etc.
A failed trip would be me kicking at your feet and missing entirely. A miss as defined in this game is making no contact at all with an attack.
Actually a miss is defined as no contact or contacting with insufficient force to cause harm. Missing versus touch AC is probably a clean miss as you have faile to even touch the atarget. Missing versus standard AC could be a clean miss or a hit on armor/shield/natural armor that was not powerful enough to hurt the defender.
There are plenty of ways to get an AoO from an AoO. Look at snake style feat chain, panther style, original crane style, etc.
Feats whose purpose is to make exceptions to the standard rules are of course, exceptions to the standard rules.
Gilfalas that is actually untrue. The post you are talking about either ended on the consensus or was FAQ'd in that AoO's can provoke another AoO and continue to provoke until one is out of AoO's, a PC only has a limited number of them to begin with and that is only with Combat Reflexes.
About the Paladin aborting his charge to make an AoO I also disagree.
The CRB states If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity
I believe that was either in the core rules or clarified in an FAQ or by a dev, specifically to handle the 'infinite attach chain' problem created by two people attacking each other with hand to hand attacks if neither one had Improved Unarmed Strike. Every swing by one would give the other an AOO ad infinitum.
I would be interested to see that post if you happen upon it again. However, the example you give might not be a valid one because if two combatants were untrained in hand to hand combat then neither would draw an attack of opportunity as the other swung so that would not be the start of an endless loop, but I do see what you are getting at in your post.
As for the subject of the original post, I do not see why the paladin could not do this per a strict reading of the rules. Of course if we focus on the line that says "you can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action," then we ought to at least give a little light to the line that says "there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM." This would only be to say that a DM could say no that cannot be done and not be 100% off base and pure DM fiat.
What I am not sure of is why would this be helpful to the paladin? If he is hit during the charge, just finish the charge and then lay on hands. Am I missing something here?
I see a number of people stating that there are certain actions that you cannot 'interrupt' or take simultaneously with a swift action.
Yet per the RAW Jiggy quoted, that does not seem to be the case. If there's some rules quotes that people could provide to that end it would be appreciated; otherwise, what I see is a general rule that says, "Swift actions can be taken anytime you could take a free action, and free actions can be taken while you are taking another action." That doesn't mean "Do X, then take a free action," it means "Take a free action while doing X."
Now of course there's the general "use common sense" rule for interpreting rules. So for instance you couldn't use Rapid Reload to reload your pistol while you're firing it (opening the chamber to reload it would render the pistol incapable of firing effectively). But I don't see such a restriction with LoH; all it takes is an expenditure of spiritual energy and touching yourself (huh huh) - both things you could do while running.
It seems the general consensus is Yes, you can use a LoH during a charge.
Cool :)
I would like to understand the importance of doing this in between the move and attack part of the charge though.. mostly out of curiousity. Why not just use it after the charge is finished anyways?
Perhaps the path of your charge will cause you to provoke an AoO from another creature as well?
Being tripped would stop the movement. You can't be prone and moving at full speed at the same time. The rules specifically say you can crawl while prone. Once your movement ends you are no longer charging since charging consist of moving.